Should I get 2 AB400 or 2 AB800?

[TMR Design]

My space is about 10' x 14' x 8'. I've decided to get a set of AB's and umbrellas.

Can anyone help me figure out whether I need the B800's or will the B400's be more than powerful enough? I'll be doing single and two person portraits at the most, head, head and shoulder, and perhaps full length.

[Steve Beck]

I am going through the same thing now. Novatron single power pack solution, Alienbees or white lightning's. I want to invest ina decent system to last for a few years and be able to do what i want without limitations, but not overspend for the amount of portrait stuff i will be doing.

I am looking at a butchered package of the Busy Bee's. I changed two of the ab800's and two ab1600's in the event i amd going to shoot outside. Then I can power them down if needed for indoor stuff.

I would say though if you never plan to shoot outside then I would gor for a ab800 and one 400 or even make both 800. That way you have enough flash for creativity in the future. But I am new to all this and researching heavily to purchase this week.

[TMR Design]

I would go for the 2 800's but I just want to make sure it isn't overkill. It was recommended that the strobes be a matched set to make things easier so it's either 2 400's or 2 800's. I just don't know. If its at all questionable then I'll just get the 800's but I need to know form someone that can correctly assess based on knowledge of the strobes, their output potential and the size of my space.

[cgratti]

Go for the two 800s, you will find out that the lights don't go as far as you would expect. the 800s wont be overkill, and who's to say that you wont ever shoot in a larger space and need the extra power.

[Titus213]

You can always turn them down but turning them up past max is not possible. I'd go for 1600s if I could afford them.

[TMR Design]

You can always turn them down but turning them up past max is not possible. I'd go for 1600s if I could afford them.

I am a believer in this but I think I am accomplishing it by getting 2 800's. Considering that 2 580EX's was going to be enough light I don't see a problem with 2 800's. The jump in price is also significant enough to make me go with the 800's.

[md_129]

Go for the 800's, you will have more control than the 580's :)

[davidfig]

For the size of your area, I think the 400's are more than enough. If you want to use it outdoors then go higher. my 2 cents. Please note I have a 400 and its fine at f5.6 from 20ft.

[SkipD]

I highly recommend the B800's. They will be fine - and NOT overkill - in the small studio. You will need the extra oomph if you someday put softboxes on the front of the lights. You will also need the extra light for an outdoor or large-area shoot when you someday do that.

[StealthLude]

id say AB800... I have 1 right now, and am thinking of getting the 1600 for when I need more power. But the 800 takes care of almost all my indoor shooting.

[canuck_newbie]

TMR - have you checked out this thread? http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=244314
Studio shot taken with a single AB400 and reflector, set at halfway between 1/2 and 1/4 power.

[TMR Design]

TMR - have you checked out this thread? http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=244314
Studio shot taken with a single AB400 and reflector, set at halfway between 1/2 and 1/4 power.

I have checked it out. It looks very good. I would get AB400's but most people seem to be recommending the 800's. I would rather have more power than I need, which can be turned down, than find myself needing more and not having it. Also, since I don't know where all this will take me I'm trying to plan a bit for the future.

[Wilt]

If you want to do portraiture, you will want to be able to shoot with a lens wide open for DOF control at times. In that case, there CAN BE 'too much power', from a flash unit, where it cannot be dialed down low enough. If someone with an AB800 can perform this test for you, it will answer some questions...

TEST: Assuming a head with no softbox, if you place the AB800 at 5.5' from the subject, at what f/stop do you get a proper exposure while using the minimum power setting on the flash?


For the OP, a softbox or an umbrella will cut down on the light output, but having that in the test introduces the variable of the brand and model and size of softbox that is used during the test. That is why I have asked that the test be done with no added modifier. And by having the light at 5.5' I am assuming that with the softbox in place, one would move the stand back to 8' so that the front of the softbox is not too close for the subject, causing claustraphobic reaction by being 'boxed in'....and moving the light from 5.5' to 8' cuts intensity at the subject by -1EV, and this would still fit in your shooting space. And by knowing the minimum f/stop at 5.5', it is easy to approximate the maximum distance and f/stop.

[jcpoulin]

I just went with the 800's as I felt the 400 would not be enough.

[Longwatcher]

I have 2 each AB400, AB800, AB1600

I have a 15x20x12 foot studio.

I use my AB400's as main and fill in softboxes at about 1/2 to 1/4 power (1 stop down (f5.6 on the meter)) and 1/8 to 1/16 th power (2-stops down (f2.8 on the meter)). And sometimes I would like to bring it farther down, but I know the light starts being unreliable below the 1/16th mark.

I use my AB800's as background, hair and spot lights (as needed) usually at 1/4 to 1/8 power. bouncing off umbrellas or with ND filters and honeycomb grids.

I have used one AB1600 as a spot light with a 2-stop ND filter and a color filter (about 1-stop loss) at 1/16 power.

I usually shoot at F5.6.
My model is usually 5-10 feet from the lights and 4-6 feet from backdrop.

I shoot headshots with a 85/1.2 at f1.8 or f2 with a 3-stop ND filter on the lens.

So adjust accordingly.

[Longwatcher]

TEST: Assuming a head with no softbox, if you place the AB800 at 5.5' from the subject, at what f/stop do you get a proper exposure while using the minimum power setting on the flash?

If I were to use my 85/1.2L at f1.2 with out the 3-stop ND filter on it with an AB800 with just the standard reflector at 6ft. the entire picture would be one big white blob. At minimal power 1/32nd I might make out some details if the model is wearing a dark dress.

The AB site in the specs page indicates that at 10feet the AB800 with the 7" standard reflector shoots at F16 2/10 at full power at ISO 100. so at 1/32 (or minimum power)that is f2.8 or 2-stops too much for f1.8. Move it to 5.5 feet and that would be between f5.6 and f8 or 4-5 stops too much power.

So AB400s may be the better value.

Note AB1600s come in handy if shooting in a large hall such as the theater I shot in recently where I had my AB1600's at almost full power with standard reflectors and got what I needed.

Just my experience and research.

[MikeMcL]

The 400s will be enough for your situation, but they may not be as "flexible" as the 800's. The 800's will also sell in a split second if you ever decide you want to do that.

I have 2 800's and a 400, and i always find myself cutting power on the 800's in situations like yours. nice thing about that is, the 800's recycle almost instantly at 50% power. (under a second for sure)

-for like 50 bucks more, just get the 800's and enjoy your options later. they rock.

[canuck_newbie]

TEST: Assuming a head with no softbox, if you place the AB800 at 5.5' from the subject, at what f/stop do you get a proper exposure while using the minimum power setting on the flash?


Fantastic idea Wilf - despite what people say, the 800 may be too bright for all applications. If you have loads of room to move the flashes back, then you can adjust that way, but if you have a small room (like I and the OP), that may not be doable.

Personally, I find it telling that Longwatcher has 2 of the 400's, 800's and the 1600's, and uses the 400's for main and fill, below half power nonetheless. Yes, he's shooting f/2, but there's also a 3-stop ND filter on there.

I think I've decided on the 400's

[TMR Design]

Hmm sounds like you guys are demonstrating that the AB400's might be a better choice for me, considering there will be 2 of them. I can't speak about the lighting or test requested but my space has it's limitations.

The space is about 10' x 14' x 8'. I like to shoot portraits from about 6 to 8 feet from the subject and like the subject to background to be 4 to 6 feet.

It would be great if I could get some input this morning so I can place my order asap. Thanks

[Steve Beck]

I find myself questioning my decision on two 800's and two 1600's now. Might go with all 800's or even 2x400's and 2x800's and add a 1600 later if needed. Hrm to much informarion on the net make sit so hard to decide what is needed.....

[TMR Design]

I find myself questioning my decision on two 800's and two 1600's now. Might go with all 800's or even 2x400's and 2x800's and add a 1600 later if needed. Hrm to much informarion on the net make sit so hard to decide what is needed.....


Exactly. The Internet is the blessing and the curse.

I just got off the phone with Alien Bees. I was told (and I don't fully understand all this just yet) that the AB800 at 10ft form subject, at full power willl give me f/8-f/11 and I have the ability to dial down 5 stops, in addition to the fact that I'll be using umbrellas or softboxes. The rep was not trying to swy me one way or the other but based on what was said it does sound like the 800's are the way to go.

Since AB has a 60 day return policy I decided to go with an AB800 (if its what I want then I'll add the second one after). So I placed my order for an AB800, the Radio trigger transmitter and receiver and a 45" silver/white umbrella.

For anyone that wants to get the Radio trigger, AB can't keep enough of them around so they are backordered by about a week. My strobe and umbrella should go out today or tomorrow and then in about a week I should have the wireless setup.

[Longwatcher]

Personally, I find it telling that Longwatcher has 2 of the 400's, 800's and the 1600's, and uses the 400's for main and fill, below half power nonetheless. Yes, he's shooting f/2, but there's also a 3-stop ND filter on there.


Just to be specific I am shooting at F5.6 with my 28-70/2.8L and then using a 3-stop ND filter to get to F2 and wider with my 85/1.2 without adjusting my lights.

[Longwatcher]

Well congratulations on your order, I would have added one thing is what distance will your lights be from your model?
If 10feet then they are probably right. If 6 feet then I am.

But the really important question when ordering Alien Bees is
What Color?

[TMR Design]

So are you saying that if my lights are going to be 6 to 8 ft from my subject that the AB800 is NOT the right choice?

I can always return and swap out if I determine I got the wrong one.

Oh yes, and in answer to the all important "what color bee?" question..

I got BLACK.

[Longwatcher]

Not that the AB800 order was a bad one, just that at times you may find it to be TOO much power.

[TMR Design]

I kept going back and forth between the 400 and 800. I don't think that I'll be sure until I actually have the thing here. I was thinking that if I use large umbrellas or softboxes that would also diffuse the light and questioned if the 400 would be powerful enough.

What I'm wondering now is if the strobes need to be a matched set in terms of power. Does it help or matter? Perhaps with one 800 the second light should be a 400 and not another 800. I took some measurements in my space to see how far the lights would be from the subject and they will be anywhere from 6 to 8 ft. but I don't think they could be 10 ft from subject.

I accept that I might have gotten too much power, and if that's the case I'll know soon enough and can swap it for a 400 if need be. I'm excited to get it and see just how much light it actually puts out.

[SkipD]

IWhat I'm wondering now is if the strobes need to be a matched set in terms of power. Does it help or matter? Perhaps with one 800 the second light should be a 400 and not another 800. I took some measurements in my space to see how far the lights would be from the subject and they will be anywhere from 6 to 8 ft. but I don't think they could be 10 ft from subject.Don't forget that if you have mis-matched lights, you will also have mis-matched modelling light outputs. That is, the modelling lights will be the same as each other, but the flash outputs will not be the same relative to the modelling lights. Until you have a really good feel for lighting with flash units, you really should have matched units (even up to three or four of them) so that the modelling lights can be used to predict the effect on shadows, fill, etc.

When using large umbrellas or softboxes - even in a small studio - the B800's will be the right size for you. they can be turned WAY down, so don't worry about them being overpowered. You will, someday, want to use them where the space is larger (or even outdoors) and you would kick yourself in the you-know-where if you only had the max power of the B400's.

[TMR Design]

Don't forget that if you have mis-matched lights, you will also have mis-matched modelling light outputs. That is, the modelling lights will be the same as each other, but the flash outputs will not be the same relative to the modelling lights. Until you have a really good feel for lighting with flash units, you really should have matched units (even up to three or four of them) so that the modelling lights can be used to predict the effect on shadows, fill, etc.

When using large umbrellas or softboxes - even in a small studio - the B800's will be the right size for you. they can be turned WAY down, so don't worry about them being overpowered. You will, someday, want to use them where the space is larger (or even outdoors) and you would kick yourself in the you-know-where if you only had the max power of the B400's.

Thanks. I'm pretty confident the AB800 is right for me and when the time is right I'll get the second one for a matched set.

[Croasdail]

I know you have made your decision, and for the record I use the 800s, but your room size really doesn't mean anything. It is the distance you are from the subject. To many people forget to leave enough room behind the subject to get nice backgrounds. You push your subject to close the your backdrop, what ever kind you use, you will get way too much detail from it. So if you leave 4-6 feet behind your subject, even if your lights are pegged against the back wall on their stands, your lights are at a max 8 feet from your subject. You'll be fine because you can still add difuser socks to the flash heards themselves if they are too hot, but just wanted to make sure you were deducting the space behind the subject from your calculations. Cheers.

[TMR Design]

I know you have made your decision, and for the record I use the 800s, but your room size really doesn't mean anything. It is the distance you are from the subject. To many people forget to leave enough room behind the subject to get nice backgrounds. You push your subject to close the your backdrop, what ever kind you use, you will get way too much detail from it. So if you leave 4-6 feet behind your subject, even if your lights are pegged against the back wall on their stands, your lights are at a max 8 feet from your subject. You'll be fine because you can still add difuser socks to the flash heards themselves if they are too hot, but just wanted to make sure you were deducting the space behind the subject from your calculations. Cheers.

Thanks Mark. I did take that into account but it could easily have been overlooked. I'm pretty sure I'll have to 'tame' the light a bit but if for some reason I find myself in a larger space or I move or suddenly decide I want to take the lights someplace and shoot outdoors or in a large space I can at least jack up the 800's and have some good light. As long as I can stop down and diffuse the 800's I should be ok.

[Wilt]

The AB site in the specs page indicates that at 10feet the AB800 with the 7" standard reflector shoots at F16 2/10 at full power at ISO 100. so at 1/32 (or minimum power)that is f2.8 or 2-stops too much for f1.8. Move it to 5.5 feet and that would be between f5.6 and f8 or 4-5 stops too much power..

From the above information, it sounds like the AB800 would be at the borderline of too powerful and you would need to have ND filtration for it to be useful for portraiture with lens wide open (depending upon which lens you use).

[TMR Design]

From the above information, it sounds like the AB800 would be at the borderline of too powerful and you would need to have ND filtration for it to be useful for portraiture with lens wide open (depending upon which lens you use).

I keep trying to make sense out of all this and it would seem that some of you that understand lighting feel the 800 might be too much power. I hope you're wrong but I'll know in 2 days and go from there. From what you're saying, if 1 AB800 is going to be borderline 'too powerful' then it would seem that 2 AB800's is way too powerful.
Are you suggesting, as others have, that 2 AB400's might be a better solution?

[Wilt]

From what you're saying, if 1 AB800 is going to be borderline 'too powerful' then it would seem that 2 AB800's is way too powerful.
Are you suggesting, as others have, that 2 AB400's might be a better solution?

Certainly the 2 AB400 would provide less light intensity without resorting to ND filters to permit use of flash wide open.

Two lights does not necessarily make for 'twice as much', if you set up your lights to not overlap each area in coverage on the subject. However, you normally do set up the fill to cover the entire area visible to the lens, then add key light for highlights in addition in some areas of the subject seen by the lens. So in the areas of key light, it is 1+1=2 parts light (one EV brighter).

I know that many are on budgets, but 'making do' with one more powerful set of lights to try to get by for both portraiture and for high intensity lighting (for deep DOF or for longer distances) is like trying to use one sledgehammer to bust up concrete and to drive finishing nails...it just does not do both well.

[FlashZebra]

I keep trying to make sense out of all this and it would seem that some of you that understand lighting feel the 800 might be too much power. I hope you're wrong but I'll know in 2 days and go from there. From what you're saying, if 1 AB800 is going to be borderline 'too powerful' then it would seem that 2 AB800's is way too powerful.
Are you suggesting, as others have, that 2 AB400's might be a better solution?
Get the "Martian Pink" and "Alien Yellow" ones, I knew you had made a mistake on that "(Black)" one.

Enjoy! Lon

[SkipD]

I keep trying to make sense out of all this and it would seem that some of you that understand lighting feel the 800 might be too much power. I hope you're wrong but I'll know in 2 days and go from there. From what you're saying, if 1 AB800 is going to be borderline 'too powerful' then it would seem that 2 AB800's is way too powerful.
Are you suggesting, as others have, that 2 AB400's might be a better solution?My first setup with AlienBees was two B800's, used in a very small "studio" for tabletop work. They were in NO WAY too powerful. I was using them at four to five feet from the subject with umbrellas (45" for starters) and shooting at f/8 to f/11 with the lights turned down - but not nearly to minimum power settings. A set of the B800's will be just fine for your applications.

[TMR Design]

Get the "Martian Pink" and "Alien Yellow" ones, I knew you had made a mistake on that "(Black)" one.

Enjoy! Lon

You kill me Lon.... :D

I know the Black really has your panties in a bunch but black it is, and I'm sorry to tell you but when I get the second AB it will be black as well.

[SkipD]

You kill me Lon.... :D

I know the Black really has your panties in a bunch but black it is, and I'm sorry to tell you but when I get the second AB it will be black as well.Right on with the black ones...... :p

My kid got a couple of the other colors - so he can tell his from mine, I guess.....

[TMR Design]

Certainly the 2 AB400 would provide less light intensity without resorting to ND filters to permit use of flash wide open.

Two lights does not necessarily make for 'twice as much', if you set up your lights to not overlap each area in coverage on the subject. However, you normally do set up the fill to cover the entire area visible to the lens, then add key light for highlights in addition in some areas of the subject seen by the lens. So in the areas of key light, it is 1+1=2 parts light (one EV brighter).

I know that many are on budgets, but 'making do' with one more powerful set of lights to try to get by for both portraiture and for high intensity lighting (for deep DOF or for longer distances) is like trying to use one sledgehammer to bust up concrete and to drive finishing nails...it just does not do both well.

Hi Wilt,

That all makes perfect sense. Since I am going through this learning and discovery process I'm just trying to get set up so I can have some versatility and really learn about light and lighting. If in the future I need more/better then that's what I'll do. In all my purchases, I'm not just thinking budget, but performance and flexibility as well. If I have to wait because I'm unsure or don't have the money then that's what I do rather than running out and buying the first thing I see or the ordering from the first link given to me here.

[Mcary]

I currently have three stops worth of ND filters on my AB800s which allows me to work with the lights at 5-10 feet from the subject and shoot at F 2.2 to 4.0 depending on what type of modifier, ie Brolly box, umbrella or none, that i'm using, by setting the power on the lights to 1/2-1/16th.

Mike

[Wilt]

My first setup with AlienBees was two B800's, used in a very small "studio" for tabletop work. They were in NO WAY too powerful. I was using them at four to five feet from the subject with umbrellas (45" for starters) and shooting at f/8 to f/11 with the lights turned down - but not nearly to minimum power settings. A set of the B800's will be just fine for your applications.

If I have to wait because I'm unsure or don't have the money then that's what I do rather than running out and buying the first thing I see or the ordering from the first link given to me here.

If Skip would define for all 'turned down' in a specific power level, you would be able to get a specific f/number at minimum power with umbellas and 4-5 feet, and that would help in making the choice of specific unit. Right now I would not know whether to guess if 'turned down' was 1/4 power and -2EV from max, or what, so largest f/stop at minimum power would be a total guess! His use of f/8 for tabletop is not the same as trying to use f/2.8 or f/2 or f/1.4 for portaiture, so minimum setting f/stop is important in that context.

[Longwatcher]

A few notes to catch up...
1. You should match you main and fill light (as in 2xAB800 OR 2xAB400 ). You do not need to match you other lights as much. If you have a good light meter, that you know how to use, you can get away with mis-matched lights.

2. The two factors in determining how much light you need are distance from subject and f-stop you will be using based on desired DoF. If shooting at f8+ such as on small product shots then you need a lot more power then if shooting portraits at f1.4 (a 5-stop difference in power needed).

We as a group usually presume that given a certain size studio you will balance the need to get the subject away from the background with the need to get the lights at a good distance from the subject and still have room left to take the picture. This is why when we are told a studio is a certain size and you are doing a particular type of photography our recommendations will be based on this.


3. If like me, you end up with different powered Lights I recommend taking advantage of Alien Bees color options. I would like to swap out my AB1600 from black to white, but they are so out of warranty that it is not worth the cost just for that convience of quickly telling the difference. My AB400s are yellow and easy to tell from the others.

4. the last factor is that ALL strobes start having issues when they are a minimum power some have more, some have less. ABs are reported to be in the middle based on a photographer's personal, somewhat objective, test report I read. So it is important to get a light you are likely to use between 1/8 to 1/2 range so you have a little flexability when needed. This is why after 2-years I broke down and got my AB400s to go with my AB800 and Ab1600s. I have been much happier since then. Noteing I shoot portraits at F1.2 to F2 so lower the power of my main and fill strobes has improved my results quite a bit.

Just depends on what you need.

[jillybean]

Go with the 800's ( I have them :) also I would go softbox/brollybox before umbrella's for portraits.

[TMR Design]

Go with the 800's ( I have them :) also I would go softbox/brollybox before umbrella's for portraits.

Hmmm really..Do you know anything about the Softlighter II (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=75852&is=REG) ?

[jillybean]

I do not personally know about the softlighter II. But after looking at it on the link, I would be willing to try it. My statement about umbrella's vs softbox is I LOVE the light a soft box give off, makes a difference in a portrait-in my opinion. Not that an umbrella doesn't work ( I have several) it does and nicely just not as 'soft'

[TMR Design]

I do not personally know about the softlighter II. But after looking at it on the link, I would be willing to try it. My statement about umbrella's vs softbox is I LOVE the light a soft box give off, makes a difference in a portrait-in my opinion. Not that an umbrella doesn't work ( I have several) it does and nicely just not as 'soft'

Makes sense. Thanks. I have one 45" silver/white umbrella coming with the AB800. After taking a look at softboxes, most needing additional hardware, the Softlighter II looks good and at a nice price. I'll see how the AB with umbrella is and perhaps get the Softlighter or some form of softbox when I get the second AB.

[Wilt]

Do not forget that the key light is typically a more specular source than the fill light. So a key light might be with just the reflector (or a small softbox) while the fill is in a larger softbox. So use of the key light without modifier will make it brighter than if used in a softbox...something else to consider in the discussion of minimum power light needed!

[TMR Design]

OK, I got my AB800 today and started doing some experimenting. I turned the power all the way down (-5 stops) on the AB and set it up bouncing into the white side of the umbrella. The light was about 6 feet from the subjects position. Then I set the shutter speed to 1/250 (max sync speed), took some readings for ISO100 and found that I could not get the meter to indicate anything larger than 2.0. So do I need to do further testing or does this test show me that with the AB800 I couldn't get away with f/1.8? When I turn up the power a bit or meter for nice DOF like f/8 things look real good and I have flexibility. I know that moving the light back further would help and I do have room for that but aren't there times that you want the light close or want it directly off to one side? in which case I would have no way to bring it down any further. So as much as I am loving the light, I do wonder if perhaps the 800 is not appropriate. What else should I be doing or testing?

EDIT: I just moved the light back by about a foot and now I am able to get readings of f/1.2, 1.4 and 1.8. I am still a little concerned that if I need or want to get in close with a light that it's too much power. The question is whether I should keep the A800 and get another, or return the 800 and get a 400 or just get the pair of 400's?

[FlashZebra]

F/1.8 is only 1/3 of a stop different than F/2.

So, you would only have to move the flash units back a very small amount. With close flash to subject distances you could accidentally kick a light stand and change the exposure more than 1/3 of a stop.

And, what is so special about F/1.8. Any attribute garnered at F/1.8 would also be present at F/2.

For anything other that extremely critical work F/1.8 is F/2 for exposure, and this would also be true for other important issues like depth of field, etc.

At some point you need to just stop fiddling with the dance card and get out there and dance.

If you had purchased some sort of 35mm F/2 lens and not a 50mm F/1.8 would this have even been discovered or mattered? Just move the aperture setting for the 50mm F/1.8 to F/2 and life will be fine. Other than possibly slightly sharper images at F/2 due to negating some wide open edge issues present on most lenses, you will not be able to tell the difference between a properly exposed image at F/1.8 and F/2. No humans will be harmed in this endeavor.

Are you just freaking out?

Enjoy! Lon

[TMR Design]

F/1.8 is only 1/3 of a stop different than F/2.

So, you would only have to move the flash units back a very small amount. With close flash to subject distances you could accidentally kick a light stand and change the exposure more than 1/3 of a stop.

And, what is so special about F/1.8. Any attribute garnered at F/1.8 would also be present at F/2.

For anything other that extremely critical work F/1.8 is F/2 for exposure, and this would also be true for other important issues like depth of field, etc.

At some point you need to just stop fiddling with the dance card and get out there and dance. If you had purchased some sort of 35mm F/2 lens and not a 50mm F/1.8 would this have even been discovered or mattered? Just move the aperture setting for the 50mm F/1.8 to F/2 and life will be fine. No humans will be harmed in this endeavor.

Are you just freaking out?

Enjoy! Lon

No Lon, not freaking out. Just trying to put things into pespective with regard to adding a second light and since I kept hearing throughout this thread that the 800's were perhaps too powerful that seed had been planted. You're right though. If the seed was not planted then I wouldn't even be thinking about it. I gather from your response that you think I am fine with what I have and getting the second AB800 is the suggested move.

[FlashZebra]

No Lon, not freaking out. Just trying to put things into pespective with regard to adding a second light and since I kept hearing throughout this thread that the 800's were perhaps too powerful that seed had been planted. You're right though. If the seed was not planted then I wouldn't even be thinking about it. I gather from your response that you think I am fine with what I have and getting the second AB800 is the suggested move.
Another AB 800, even a "Martian Pink" one, can at the most add enough light to make the total twice as much light as with one AB 800 (in use it is typically less than twice, see Wilt's nice posts somewhere in your queries regarding these issues).

F/1.4 gathers exactly twice as much light as F/2. So, with two identical AB 800 flash units (except possibly for case color) set side by side in the same configuration as you obtained F/1.4 reading in the situation described in your post above, would produce an F/2 reading with two flash heads (not one).

But, if somehow F/2, and not F/1.8, is inexplicably unacceptable, then you will need to kick both of those light stands back one or two inches to get that F/1.8 nirvana.

Enjoy! Lon

[TMR Design]

Another AB 800, even a "Martian Pink" one, can at the most add twice as much light (in use it is typically less than twice, see Wilt's nice posts somewhere in your queries regarding these issues).

F/1.4 gathers exactly twice as much light as F/2. So, with two identical AB 800 flash units (except possibly for case color) set side by side in the same configuration as you obtained F/1.4 reading in the situation described in your post above. Would produce an F/2 reading with two flash heads (not one).

But, if somehow F/2, and not F/1.8, is inexplicably unacceptable, then you will need to kick both of those light stands back one or two inches to get that F/1.8 nirvana.

Enjoy! Lon

Thanks Lon. As I said, I don't have the f/1.8 fixation. I just thought that it would be interesting to see what results I would get if the lens were wide open but your explanation makes sense and I don't need further convincing (or prompting to get Martian Pink because it ain't gonna happen :D ).

[Wilt]

TMR, I think you're fine. Personally I think the guys who insist on f/1.4 for portraits are extremists. A 50mm lens on a 20D, focused at 5' has a DOF only 1.5" deep at f/1.4, versus 2.1" at f/2. In other words you scarcely can get the eye and the tip of the nose in focus at f/2. And, if you are taking a 2/3 portrait, you are scarcely getting both eyes in focus at f/2. When I commented about 'on the hairy edge' with the AB800, that was a reference made depending upon which side of the DOF fanatic line you fall! ;)

[TMR Design]

Thanks Wilt.

[FlashZebra]

TMR, I think you're fine. Personally I think the guys who insist on f/1.4 for portraits are extremists. A 50mm lens on a 20D, focused at 5' has a DOF only 1.5" deep at f/1.4, versus 2.1" at f/2. In other words you scarcely can get the eye and the tip of the nose in focus at f/2. And, if you are taking a 2/3 portrait, you are scarcely getting both eyes in focus at f/2. When I commented about 'on the hairy edge' with the AB800, that was a reference made depending upon which side of the DOF fanatic line you fall! ;)
Good point Wilt.

I think this is mostly an artificial need for apertures faster than F/2.8 for common portraits and general studio images of human beings. But, this use with studio flash keeps coming up over and over, and especially by users that are just about to buy there first studio flash gear, and insist that this is a grand need.

In my many years of studio work, this is just not the case.

But, it seems that many that have never had flash gear, must have that F/2 or F/1.4 function, or flash has no real value.

Flash function at F/8 is a lot more important that at F/2, and function at F/1.4 is just a crap shoot (as you show in your post above) but this point seems to have little impact with novice flash users.

There must be a reason for the same movie to be played over and over.

How many threads have you seen that are predicated that even modest powered flash units like the AB 800 are just too powerfully and unfit because F/1.4 (or even F/2) cannot be accomplished in a reasonably sized room.

If F/1.4 use is all that important and utilitarian, I am not quite sure why these humans think they even need flash gear. Most general house lighting at ISO 400 or so will provide enough light for F/1.4 work, so why the expensive flash units?

For general studio photography of human beings, how has an obsession for almost unlimited control of an out of focus background been traded for the very utilitarian need for an in focus subject?

Give me F/8.

Enjoy! Lon