How do I use 580 flash in other than P mode?

[jargaguy]

I know it sounds like a silly question, but I can't seem to get the right exposure when I use my flash in AV mode.

I've been learning to use my camera in P and noticing the AV/TV splits. When I use the flash P mode keeps me at 4.0 and 1/60. It's ok for most shots, but I'd like to learn to set shots myself and have DOF control.

When I choose AV mode I can select different AV but then the shutter speeds are all very slow and come out overexposed or really blurry. In order to get a decent shot I have to lower the AV to 5.6 or 4 and then I'm back where I started at 1/60 shutter speed, so I switch back to P to make my life easier and shots better. :oops:

Here are some examples...http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/jargaguy/group-P-mode.jpg


P mode at => 1/60s @ f/4, 200 ISO, spot metering, 32 MM, auto white balance

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/jargaguy/group-AV-mode.jpg


0.3s @ f/7.1, 200 ISO, spot metering, 32 mm, auto white balance

Sorry, don't know how to copy the Metadata

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. I'm trying to learn to get out of P mode, but not if this keeps happening!:cry:

Any tips are appreciated



JA

[ibdb]

Take a look through the EOS Flash FAQ at the top of this section. I learned a great deal from it, and continue to learn on each reading. One of the questions answered is the one you're asking.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=107588

[scottbergerphoto]

Your first shot looks properly exposed both for ambient and flash light. Your second shot looks over exposed for ambient light, and no flash light is visible. Here are some tips I hope will help:

1. In P mode, the camera limits the shutter speed to 1/60 on the low end to prevent a blurry picture from camera movement. In M, Tv and Av, no such floor exists, so the camera meter is recommending a shutter speed to properly expose the ambient light.

2. If you want to capture ambient light with flash pictures in low light situations, you have to be prepared to deal with slow shutter speeds. That means using a tripod and telling your subjects to remain absolutely still until the shot is over-shutter closes. The guiding rule on how slow you can go on shutter speed and still hand hold a camera is 1/focal length of the lens. So, using a Canon 24-70 f/2.8, you shouldn't expect to hand hold anything slower then about 1/70 sec.

3. Remember that the flash and ambient exposures are independently controlled. Your camera meter measures the ambient light and ETTLII controls the flash.

I hope that helps.

[jargaguy]

Thanks for the tips! :D

ibdb: I've read the sticky and will continue to read it to find more answers.

Scott: Thanks. I understand what your saying and have read that my lens which has IS can compensate if I hand hold it.

I guess I don't understand why when I use the camera flash (popped up) I can toggle between AV/TV splits in P and when I use an external I can't. :confused:

I check out your site. Very Cool stuff. When you take pics of people in the City, do you tell them and let them now your gonna post them on your site. I've been wanting to head in and snap some shots, but feel weary of taking pics of people and having them get angry.





JA

[scottbergerphoto]

I guess I don't understand why when I use the camera flash (popped up) I can toggle between AV/TV splits in P and when I use an external I can't. :confused:



JA

I don't know what that means. :( Can you explain?

[jargaguy]

I don't know what that means. :( Can you explain?


Sure. When I don't have an external flash on the camera. P mode lets me vary the AV/TV by turning the main dial. That way I can change the DOF quickly and ensure myself proper exposure(accoring to the camera). This is true even with the onboard flash popped and ready to fire. Why, then would it not be the same when you attach an external unit?

repost...

I checked out your site. Very Cool stuff. When you take pics of people in the City, do you tell them and let them now your gonna post them on your site. I've been wanting to head in and snap some shots, but feel weary of taking pics of people and having them get angry.


JA

[Steve Beck]

Dont forget crop factor so no shutter speed less then whatever focal length times the crop factor your the camera you have.

[scottbergerphoto]

Av and Tv usually refer to Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority Modes. [ Regardless of whether you use the pop up flash or a speedlight, you should be able to shift the aperture/shutter combination using the command dial in P Mode. The kind of flash doesn't matter. ] EDIT-This is an error- Page 75 of the 20D Manual states that Program shift is not available when using a flash. Sorry!
I don't usually ask permission to take people's pictures. If they don't want you to, you'll know. Be quick to acknowledge their refusal and say "sorry" when necessary. You also don't need permission, unless you plan on selling the pictures for anything other then editorial usage. There is no expectation of privacy in public places.

[In2Photos]

There is already some great advice given but I thought I might add some. If I were going to take the pic that you show in the original post I would do the following:

1. Set my desired ISO.
2. Camera in M mode. Flash in ETTL.
3. Set my aperture.
4. Meter the sky and set my shutter speed accordingly.
5. Adjust my ISO and shutter speed if necessary to eliminate camera shake or people movement.
6. Take the picture.
7. Check the histogram and adjust my camera settings for background and FEC for the foreground, then reshoot if necessary.

[PeaPicker]

There is already some great advice given but I thought I might add some. If I were going to take the pic that you show in the original post I would do the following:

1. Set my desired ISO.
2. Camera in M mode. Flash in ETTL.
3. Set my aperture.
4. Meter the sky and set my shutter speed accordingly.
5. Adjust my ISO and shutter speed if necessary to eliminate camera shake or people movement.
6. Take the picture.
7. Check the histogram and adjust my camera settings for background and FEC for the foreground, then reshoot if necessary.

Me too! I always get better flash results in M mode. :)

[jargaguy]

There is already some great advice given but I thought I might add some. If I were going to take the pic that you show in the original post I would do the following:

1. Set my desired ISO.
2. Camera in M mode. Flash in ETTL.
3. Set my aperture.
4. Meter the sky and set my shutter speed accordingly.
5. Adjust my ISO and shutter speed if necessary to eliminate camera shake or people movement.
6. Take the picture.
7. Check the histogram and adjust my camera settings for background and FEC for the foreground, then reshoot if necessary.


OK. Thanks! That's a lot of steps. How long do you normally take to do all those steps?

I had my ISO set at 200 and forgot to factor it in my shot! :o

1. Set camera in P
2. Zoomed in and Metered subjects face (held shutter halfway througout next steps)
3. Zoomed out and refocused whole group
4. tried to change AV but couldn't:cry:
5. took shot

I'm gonna try and do what you do. When you meter the sky do you keep the shutter halway down or release and recompose?


JA

[verty]

im having the same problems! hehehe

when i get home from work im gonna have to read over this thread properly

[PeaPicker]

I would suggest reading what Curtis (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=171657) has put together on flash photography.
I read it again about once a week and learn something new each time. :)

[scottbergerphoto]

Av and Tv usually refer to Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority Modes. Regardless of whether you use the pop up flash or a speedlight, you should be able to shift the aperture/shutter combination using the command dial in P Mode. The kind of flash doesn't matter.

I don't usually ask permission to take people's pictures. If they don't want you to, you'll know. Be quick to acknowledge their refusal and say "sorry" when necessary. You also don't need permission, unless you plan on selling the pictures for anything other then editorial usage. There is no expectation of privacy in public places.

I made a mistake here. I just checked the 20D Manual which on page 75, states that when using a flash, you cannot shift the program. Sorry!:oops:

[In2Photos]

OK. Thanks! That's a lot of steps. How long do you normally take to do all those steps?

I had my ISO set at 200 and forgot to factor it in my shot! :o

1. Set camera in P
2. Zoomed in and Metered subjects face (held shutter halfway througout next steps)
3. Zoomed out and refocused whole group
4. tried to change AV but couldn't:cry:
5. took shot

I'm gonna try and do what you do. When you meter the sky do you keep the shutter halway down or release and recompose?


JA
It sounds like a lot, but it only takes about 20 seconds. The great thing is that if you are taking a bunch of shots with this setting your ambient lighting will always expose the same (unless there is a drastic change like a cloud moving in during a bright sunny day). When I say meter the sky here is what I do:

After setting my aperture I halfpress the shutter, look through the VF and point the camera to the sky. In M mode rotating the dial changes the shutter speed (at least in does on my XT), so I then rotate the dial until my camera meter's needle lines up at zero. Sometimes I prefer to underexpose the background slightly (1/3-2/3 of a stop). This is where you just use your best judgement on how you want the final results to look.

[jargaguy]

Cool. Thanks again.

Would you say that 400 ISO would be good in the evening or overcast days. not too much noise. Will I be able to tell in the camera viewfinder or have to wait until post processing?


JA

[In2Photos]

Cool. Thanks again.

Would you say that 400 ISO would be good in the evening or overcast days. not too much noise. Will I be able to tell in the camera viewfinder or have to wait until post processing?


JA
I have used ISO 400 for indoor stuff to retain more ambient lighting and I am sure you could use it outdoors as well. Don't wait for post processing though, use the histogram. You might consider taking a test shot without the subjects. Then the histogram is only revealing the information about the background exposure.