My little Rant

[ssim]

This is my little rant so please take it for what it's worth.

Yep, I've got this thing tomorrow with 28 models, they'll all be buck naked but please help because I don;'t want to screw up.

Over the past few weeks I've seen many a poster that says "Just got my new lens/flash/whatever and I have a big shoot tomorrow" Can you help me learn how to use it.

Now I know that there are a lot of people here that would dearly love to make their living in this industry, but come on, what self respecting photographer is going to grab a piece of equipment and go out on a paying shoot the very next day or two without wrapping their mind around how the equipment functions properly. If you are only putting the part in about the shoot to make yourself feel good or important and so that you get quick help, spare us the details.

I used to do weddings and commercial work many years ago in 6X7 format and I would have never gone out without first knowing that everything worked as it was supposed to and I knew exactly how to use it properly. Now I do photography for the pure pleasure.

As has been raised so many times, please do a search on the board, just about everything has been covered in some aspect. If you can't find your answer then ask.

Flame away!!!!

[IanD]

Yep, I’ve got this thing tomorrow with 28 models, they’ll all be buck naked but please help because I don’t want to screw up.

I have to learn to read the entire post. I thought that Sheldon had something happening in my back yard and I did not get an invitation.
Geez...28 models all buck nekid...almost had a heart attack. :lol:

Ian

[GenEOS]

Many post a note up here before they shoot something they have not shot before. If I were a wedding photographer with 20 years experience, only shooting weddings....then that experience won't do me a hill a beans, if I were to have to go shoot a NASCAR race.

Would you not be interested in what another photographer has to lend for advice on shooting something you have not shot before? Or are just going to keep your nose up in the air and proceed in your own direction? What if someone was to lend you a piece of advice that might keep you from looking like a moron. I digress....

I do agree that some do post things that are a little far fetched. That is because most that post those things a new to the forum and/or are new to digital EOS shooting. Many are stepping up from poit and shoots.

I will defend the less knowledgable on this thread, because that is what this forum is all about.

[mpkirby]

This is my little rant so please take it for what it’s worth.


Over the past few weeks I’ve seen many a poster that says “Just got my new lens/flash/whatever and I have a big shoot tomorrow” Can you help me learn how to use it.



That's like going to a college professor and asking a question, and getting a response like. "Have you checked the school library? I'm sure that topic was covered there sometime in the last 100 years".

Half the fun of a board like this is learning things together. In real-time, without delving into vast quantities of research. It's about forming relationships and understanding what people are doing today, not yesterday.

My sense is that there isn't a topic that has been discussed on this board that isn't covered in one of a miryad of photography books somewhere. Why bother posting at all? Why not just go buy a bunch of books. Any of us that can afford a 1500 dollar camera, can certainly afford 100 dollars in books to teach us how to use it.

Tell me. other then "Canon has a new XXX out", and "Canon service sucks", what kinds of posts are reasonable?

Mike

[Belmondo]

Tell me. other then "Canon has a new XXX out", and "Canon service sucks", what kinds of posts are reasonable?

Mike

There are several:
1. My10D front focuses (similar to 'My 10D back focuses)
2. I just bought my 10D. It's my first SLR. What lens should I buy?
3. Anything to do with Gitzo, the 3-legged donkey
4. Posts like. "I see a website advertising the Rebel for $319.00. Is PHOTOSCAM of Brooklyn a good company?"
5. Petitions for firmware upgrades.
6. Any mindless survey on irrelevant subjects.
7. "Which is better? The 550EX, or a '58 Ford?"
8. "My Rebel fell off the roof of my car. It now rattles a lot and doesn't seem to work. Any suggestions?"

And so on.

The simple truth is this: everyone is welcome here, regardless of their level of competence. If a question is inane, repetitive, or something that’s already been covered ad nauseum, a simple link to an FAQ or an older thread solves the problem easily, and doesn’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

We are blessed by having in our midst a group of people with considerable knowledge in a number of areas which, to us neophytes, can only be described as extremely esoteric at best. The fact that they are willing to share any of their knowledge, much less so willingly don the role of teacher in an unruly class, makes them an asset to be much appreciated.

Very simply, to me there is no subject out-of-bounds. If it’s not appropriate to this board, the moderator will move the thread or kill it. If it’s really strange, it will either be ignored, or more likely, kicked around like an old can in a parking lot by every person in the forum with something smart to say. In that regard, the forum is self-correcting. It is also self-perpetuating. For the most part, the questions are sincere, and the answers are informative and fair. The ‘newbies’ will rapidly become knowledgeable members of this board, and will eventually take their turns at responding to questions. It’s the circle of life, I guess. (this should be read to music).

Thos.

[ilya]

I had some to add to Thos' list, but instead I will

A) create a new governing body and set of policies called "GAFT ("Generally Acceptable Forum Topics"),

and

B) I'll just post Dave's Top Ten Reasons George W. Bush Wants To Put A Man On Mars


10. Dick Cheney needs a new undisclosed location

9. It's part of his "No Planet Left Behind" initiative

8. Great deal on the off-season airfare right now at Expedia.com

7. Maybe we'll find some weapons of mass destruction there

6. We've run out of places on Earth to drill for oil

5. Hoping to get Mork's autograph

4. We cannot back down until the people of Mars hold free elections

3. Dude, free Mars bars

2. Why not? It's not like we have an enormous debt or failing economy

1. Pete Rose bet him we wouldn't do it

[CyberDyneSystems]

There are several:
1. My10D front focuses (similar to 'My 10D back focuses)
2. I just bought my 10D. It's my first SLR. What lens should I buy?
3. Anything to do with Gitzo, the 3-legged donkey
4. Posts like. "I see a website advertising the Rebel for $319.00. Is PHOTOSCAM of Brooklyn a good company?"
5. Petitions for firmware upgrades.
6. Any mindless survey on irrelevant subjects.
7. "Which is better? The 550EX, or a '58 Ford?"
8. "My Rebel fell off the roof of my car. It now rattles a lot and doesn't seem to work. Any suggestions?"

And so on....
Thos.

ROFLMAO! I love this guy!

Photoscam of Brooklyn :mrgreen: Thats where I reserved my 1DRebel Magnum in brite stainless!!!!


//even though he just caused me to spit coffee on an allready aged notebook!

[mjordan]

Forum posters are just like a pack of dogs. The young pups run around, nipping and jumping, bumping into the old dog that just wants to lay in the sun and snooze. Finally, after about the 10th time a young pup run into him, he'll rear up, show some teeth and growl. At which the young pup will cower down and roll over and promise never to do that again. But pups have short memorys, so after a little while they start running around again... at first staying clear of old sleeping dog... but then they forget and eventually once agin start bumping into and jumping on the sleeping old dog. So once again, he rears up, shows some teeth, grows at the poor quivering puppies, who promise never to do that again.

And eventually, the puppies soon learn to watch what they do around the old sleeping dog... about the time it's their turn to lay in the sun and sleep all day.


So a newbie posts the same question for the hundreth time and some old timer will rear up, bare their teeth and grow at the newbie... and they roll over and promise to never ask another question that's been asked before.

:lol:

Mike
Mike

[Belmondo]

Life as a newbie can be a bitch.

Strictly in canine terms, of course.

[ilya]

Its the Circle of Life

Not to be confused with the Circle of Confusion (1/Resolution Factor)

:lol:

[ssim]

Ok, I feel duly chastised. I was trying to make two very serious points.

1. Don't go out on a shoot if you don't know your equipment well enough to have the confidence in it and yourself. I doubt that anyone would garner enough information off of here in such a short time frame to give them that confidence. Bottom line, IMO, is that you only gain this through actual practise.

2. From a personal perspective, I really tire on the "help me choose a new lens" question. There have been a significant amount of them. (must be close to tax refund time). I was simply trying to emphasize the fact that there is a great deal of this same information available in the search function.

I realize that it much easier to ask than search and try and filter through the results.

[neil_r]

I just woke up Grrrrrr

N

[Belmondo]

Ok, I feel duly chastised. I was trying to make two very serious points.



Nobody's chastising you, and your points are adequately made. You're just articulating a frustration that many of us feel after seeing the same or similar questions come up over and over again.

I just can't think of any way of eliminating them, or even significantly reducing them, without killing the spontaneity and friendliness of this group. As long as we don’t have to respond to the questions we consider unworthy, then we shouldn’t be bothered by them.

[Sketcher]

My Little non-Rant

As a good little forum member I do my obligatory relevancy search to ensure no one has posted the identical question. My interest of the moment is in properly exposing snow and snow element images. Having saved a bookmark from a previous search on exposure and reading one’s histogram I again re-read Luminous Landscape’s “understanding your histogram” and then note having a few more bookmarks linking to more in-depth histogram detail (reading for another time).

1. I perform a search on [Exposure Compensation and Snow]. Eighteen results are displayed and I begin reading through them; noting that quite a few really don’t pertain to my particular bent. 2. Learning how to use the search function a little better I force the search for “all terms” rather than the default “any” and am then left with seven results.

Gleaning as much information as I can about shooting in snow from the seven posts regarding the above mention; I find that even though well addressed – those posts just don’t seem to nail it for me. Don’t get me wrong, I’m learning quite a bit from them. However, I’m not shooting sports, studio high-key, using a S400 or G1 so It’s become slim pickin’s. Photography itself is essentially the same regardless of camera so being the responsible person I am, they all get read.

I get easily sidetracked by a [virtual] argument about whether or not there is a perfect histogram. A segue which wasn’t on the map steers me headlong into a tangent search on dynamic range because it was referred to in one of the posts as being limited in current digital capability as opposed to film (though quite similar in range to slide film). I now have a better understanding of Dynamic Range and the rave review of the Fuji S3 over in FM now makes more sense to me.

An hour later I find my way back home and now have quite a bit of new understanding under my belt. Though the answering wasn’t specific, I now have a better grasp on the kind of shooting I would like to do and will try out some new settings the next time I’m out. FYI: I’m a “do it in the field” kind of guy (yes, that’s an open door for humor). By that I mean I prefer to get the image as right as possible in camera/glass and perform as little post processing as possible. I’m a Network Admin and PC hobbyist so this photography obsession is really my only self-interest break away from a computer screen (and I find it quite liberating).

So I’ve learned a little. I’ve been responsible in the process and have not limited my searching to one forum, topic or thread. I had time to study and more importantly, without pressure can try out what I've learned. I still feel strangely unfulfilled however. Sort of as if the learning experience though valuable wasn’t quite validated being that I didn’t share it with anyone or feel as though anyone actively ‘taught’ me the ropes.

And that last paragraph sums it up for me. Why would I post yet another “how do I shoot in snow amidst 28 nekid trees” when it’s been done before? I do it because of community, communication and appreciation of correspondence, my enjoyment of talking about “Me”, my interests, showing people that I’m learning and to have someone personally give me guidance. That’s why I would post my version of “yet another newbie question”. I do try to avoid the many pitfalls of being ignorant, but sometimes for all the above reasons and then some more, there I go. I really don't make it all about "me", but I confess there's that element.

Admittedly, many of the owners of “yet another” posts haven’t done their homework and don’t even browse the first page for posts of relevant topic. In that light the onus is then on our shoulders to not insult ourselves by becoming indignant after willfully clicking on the post and reading more of the same. It takes more effort and anguish to respond harshly then it does to direct kindly. As a forum moderator who was been involved in the significant growth of another forum I vouch for the more healthy fertilizing capability of kind direction over “RTFM”. Communities stagnate in growth when only the “never been done before” posts are welcomed. The better direction can be taken from HAM Radio etiquette; that is to simply not respond or acknowledge traffic which does not recognize appropriate behavior.

**NewsFlash** And this just in!! I received an e-mail from the guys I happened to shoot while stopping down at the lake today. We're getting some fresh snow and they'd like to know if they could hire me to shoot some action photo's of them with their sleds down at the lake... They know I'm an amateur but figure I can do better with my gear than they can with their digicam so they'd like me to meet them tomorrow if I'm free. Crap, I don't have time to try out all the reading I've just done and I don't want to show up tomorrow and have it be a waste of time for those guys. I'll shoot it just for the opportunity and they can pay me if I get some good shots but, but,... where can I get some quick answers on optimal settings or obvious pitfalls to avoid!!?? I know, those guys over in the Canon Digital Photography Forums know what they're talking about!! I'll stop in over there :).

[Bubber Jones]

You should try to admin a forum with a large precentage of the membership being teenagers and another large percentage being adults acting like teenagers...

I think everyone has it pretty easy around here...

Just my $0.02... That and $8.97 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. Take it for what it's worth.

DM

[RichardtheSane]

Here is my little bit.

ssim, I think your first point about the 'Just bought a new lens, any suggestions for tomorrows shoot? is very valid.
The posts either like the above or 'I am doing a ------- shoot tomorrow, any suggestions' are just pretty pointless because you can't take much onboard in a day or two without practice.
If I am doing a paid, or even a serious shoot I would want to have had at least a weeks worth of suggestions and ideas so I could go and try them out before screwing up the shoot. If it is something totally new then I would want longer.
I notice how rare it is that when someone new asks a short notice question like this that we ever get to see the results. If I took suggestions from friends here, and as a result the shoot went well, I'd say thanks and post some images, and I am sure most people would because it is an achievement. This suggests to me that the fairly obvious happens and the shoot goes bad, or the results are not what was expected.

My views differ on the second point though.
When you buy a lens you can search to your hearts content, but eventually if you look for long enough every lens you are considering could be ideal for what you need.
If you are looking for a lens to fulfill a particular purpose then post away with your requirements.

What does come up too often is the question 'I am looking for a new lens, any suggestions' - sometimes accompanied with a list of what they already have and a price range. These are the ones that I really can't see the point to.
If anyone reads this who is considering a new lens Please tell us what you plan on using it for!!

My bit/slight rant over :D

[KennyG]

I agree with the original post. My concern is for the customer/subjects. If someone has never shot say a wedding before, and asks on here how to do it as they have commited to a shoot tomorrow, then pity the poor clients. I know we all have to start somewhere, but why should clients become guinea pigs for someone who is unskilled with untried equipment.

I know a local photog who made a total mess of a shoot because he had just gone out and bought some slave flashes, brollies etc. and the first time he ever used them was with a paying client.

I would personally decline work if I felt I was not fully skilled to do it.


However, my favourite forum laughs at the moment are the non-relevant replies.

"I am looking for information on the EF 500mm F4IS" - "I don't have one of those, but have you considered a Sigma 100mm macro".

"I want help shooting portraits" - "I don't shoot portraits, but see the attached image of a stealth bomber I took last week".

(Not real, but you no doubt get the gist)

[evilenglishman]

--

[RichardtheSane]

I think the point Kenny was making was not that you shouldn't DO the shoot, you just shouldn't turn up on the day with unfamilliar equipment in an area you are not skilled in and expect good results. It just isn't fair on a client who had paid money for the service. Doing it as a favour is totally different, and if you are doing someone a favour then they will understand that you are doing whatever you can for them.

You should practice first, maybe on your own family or your unsuspecting dog (Yes, strange I know, but I use our hound as a test subject for indoor/portrait equipment)

[evilenglishman]

--

[neil_r]

Now the irony is not lost.....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24704

lol

N

[DaveG]

My gripe is not about people who write in asking (to us) silly or repetitive questions but posters who will reply to any and all questions with "funny" answers even though it's absolutely unhelpful.

"I'd like to shoot figure skating. How should I do it?"

"Well don't fall down."

Why do they waste their time with this stuff? If they answered "Well don't fall down." and then went on to explain how they'd shoot figure skating then that would be fine to me. But they have no idea how to fix the problem but want to have something to say anyway. That usually sets a bunch of them off and off they go on a tangent leaving the original poster in the dark while they discuss something like snot.

Maybe we should have a contest for moronic reply of the week.

[Sketcher]

Aside from my long winded post above, I have to agree with a certain measure of disdain for the posts this thread is in discussion toward. People should not be accepting assignments/opportunities where their skill or lack thereof are more likely to cause disappointment and hardship than not. However, an opportunity where there is an mutual understanding of customer expectation and amateur "skill" is in my opinion a different animal. The cruxt of the issue here is communication.

Now if one is posting about a "job" to puff themselves up and get an oooooh ahhhh out of the audience, that's a shame. More than it being an afront to forum etiquette it is a sad indication of how sorry some people's lives are that they need to create a world for themselves. It is in that light that I choose simply to ignor those types of threads.

I need to split a hair however; is the intent of the op to dissuade people from posting last minute emergency questions or to remark with disdain the idiocy of presenting yourself as a skilled photographer when your amateur membership is still current (perhaps both) or am I missing the intent entirely? Either way, he himself calls on the flame in ending his post.

Sheesh, there I go being long winded again... I better watch it or someone's going to start a thread grumbling about long winded, self-important head cases who need to tear themselves away from the keyboard and actually do some photography.

[evilenglishman]

--

[Belmondo]

My gripe is not about people who write in asking (to us) silly or repetitive questions but posters who will reply to any and all questions with "funny" answers even though it's absolutely unhelpful.

"I'd like to shoot figure skating. How should I do it?"

"Well don't fall down."

Why do they waste their time with this stuff? If they answered "Well don't fall down." and then went on to explain how they'd shoot figure skating then that would be fine to me. But they have no idea how to fix the problem but want to have something to say anyway. That usually sets a bunch of them off and off they go on a tangent leaving the original poster in the dark while they discuss something like snot.

Maybe we should have a contest for moronic reply of the week.

My ears are burning. Is there any reason I shouldn't take this personally?

If in fact you do decide to have such a contest, please allow me to nominate myself (even though I have on rare occasions attempted to be helpful).

[ilya]

What are we trying to accomplish here? If our goal is to position this forum as a dry humorless pit of mediocrity, that's one thing. If our goal is to maintain an interesting and fun community that is helpful to all, then we shouldn't take things very seriously.

If someone chooses to interject some humor into the post without answering, a) I haven't seen that very often; and b) so what.

The real problem is with advice that is completely irrelevant or totally wrong, or poses personal experiences as the only solution to a problem.

The worst thing that can be done in this or any forum is people providing mis-information because they try to sound authoritative. Or another fave is posing their experience or "that their pet lens rules" over and over again as gospel and answer to a newbie's prayers.

In conclusion, humor = good, facts = good, misinformation = bad.

[RichardtheSane]

I think the point Kenny was making was not that you shouldn't DO the shoot, you just shouldn't turn up on the day with unfamilliar equipment in an area you are not skilled in and expect good results. It just isn't fair on a client who had paid money for the service. Doing it as a favour is totally different, and if you are doing someone a favour then they will understand that you are doing whatever you can for them.


Reading kenny's post again, it seems to me that he IS saying don't do the shoot - either that or "don't ask questions here" as you must be an idiot not to know what you are doing

From what I can see he is actually saying if you are being paid to shoot to a certain standard that is possibly above your skill level don't do the shoot. If you are being paid to do the shoot and have some new equipment, don't use it in the shoot till you are totally familiar with it.

And to be honest reading that from it then I totally agree.

BUT, if you are being paid for the results you achieve, and not the time you spent on the shoot, and if it doesn't cause the client any inconvenience then DO use the new equipment (with the old as a backup) and DO try a type of photography you are not as familiar with.

(And I didn't see him mention what should or shouldn't be posted here)

[Tom W]

In conclusion, humor = good, facts = good, misinformation = bad.

I think that about sums it up.

[Canuck]

This is my little rant so please take it for what it’s worth.

Yep, I’ve got this thing tomorrow with 28 models, they’ll all be buck naked but please help because I don’t want to screw up.

Over the past few weeks I’ve seen many a poster that says “Just got my new lens/flash/whatever and I have a big shoot tomorrow” Can you help me learn how to use it.


Sheldon,

Hmm...are the models female and like 18-28 yrs old?? So, I might have to come up with the money to make a visit your way. :)

Also, I feel your pain in the area of people that are new to this whole photography and bit and I too am getting rather weary of answering the same/similar questions week in/week out, month in/month out. We're working on a solution to that, just trust me. I know I am not the most knowledgeable persone around these parts, but nor am I the most clueless either. I too have issues with people asking us to make up their mind for them or the like. I am most willing to help people that do their homework and learn about the stuff and are not wannabes. The phrase, "if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch" comes to mind.

There is one such ordeal of sort and they will know who they are and I will leave them nameless to keep the peace and I am not trying to make an example of said person, but make a point. I had sent said person about 5 pics from a particular lens I have and also sent them to my webite and somewhere between 5-10 e-mails of varied questions, I said, "Now it is in your hands to make the decision. IMHO, you are starting to get on some people's nerves. I know you want to get this sorted, but ultimately, you are the one that will be using it. No one but you really knows what you want and can afford and stretch to afford. You could keep on posting till the cows come home but it will not do much good. My next reccomendation is to look up the reviews on the lens(es) yo are looking at getting and then compare them on paper get a price from a reputable dealer and then buy it and wait for it to come in the post. After receiving it and making sure it is ok, go hav fun with it. My reccommendation stands...Take it as you will." and then concluded.

This person replied: "Thanks for all of your info...I kind of thought that I might be stretching my request a little. I apologize for that."

I haven't replied to it yet, but the fact remains that it makes it hard for me to reccommend things when the person on the other end hasn't a clue. This person had a clue. As I said above, go read up on it where they have review on lenses and make a decision. I wasn't gonna do that for them. No way! I am way too busy as it is.

Cheers from England,
Canuck

[KennyG]

Reading kenny's post again, it seems to me that he IS saying don't do the shoot - either that or "don't ask questions here" as you must be an idiot not to know what you are doing

My point is - don't do the shoot. I did not imply in any way that anyone asking questions is an idiot.

I know my own limitations, where my photographic skills are and things like weddings, babies and pets are not my strong points (to say the least). It is better to be honest rather than end up spoiling the bride's day for example.

25 years in my particular area of photography does not automatically make me skilled in other areas. I would never take on any paid work where I did not feel that I could do a good job for a client. Unfortunately too many people are prepared to rush in without thinking things through, in the hope that they might get it right - most times they don't.

[ijohnson]

I must say that if I were offered the opportunity to take the pictures of the 28 nude models, I would be in here and in the library until I couldn't stand anymore making sure that by some luck I would be asked to come back.

Don't tell ME not to do that shoot, I would show up with a disposable camera if that's all I had.

With equal consideration, if my friends or a neighbor wanted me to help them get some pictures and they know that I am more knowledgeble or have better equipment, I just might start a topic hoping that some of the experts in here have taken similar pictures.

I consider these to be much more valid posts than "what lens for my d10?"

[Belmondo]

This, as much as anything, is a philosophical matter. The question really is, do we have the moral, ethical, or legal right to undertake projects where our talent or experience renders us under-qualified? Ultimately, the answer is, or at least should be, 'No.'

I am not a professional photographer by anyone's definition. I would therefore not accept money for photographs. I will not do favors where the outcome is critical to the person asking the favor. In other words, I would not photograph a wedding, a christening, or any event where a bad result could produce disappointment sufficient to jeopardize a friendship.

I will happily share my work with anyone who finds it pleasing. If it happens to be any of the above described events, then I’ve made someone happy, and that in turn pleases me.

In short, I will never allow myself to be put in the position where someone else is relying solely on my skills for an important photograph. The discussion of whether or not I should show up with an untested or untried piece of equipment is moot….I very well might do it, because the outcome only matters to me.