What happened here? Flash not working correct? Or the camera

[robvonk]

I had a party yesterday and borrowed an speedlite 380 EX to be able to bounce the flash. Unfortunatly, a lot of pictures are useless. Here's two samples:

http://www.robvonk.com/files/flash/IMG_4972.jpg

http://www.robvonk.com/files/flash/IMG_4973.jpg

These two pictures are taken 45 secs after each other. Here's the exif info:

Picture 1:
Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Firmware: Firmware Version 1.0.1
Date/Time: 2004:02:08 00:05:43
Shutter speed: 1/60 sec
Aperture: 4,0
Exposure mode: Auto
Flash: External E-TTL Auto + Red eye reduction
Flash EF guide number: 2047,97
Metering mode: Evaluative
Drive mode: Single frame shooting
ISO: 100
Lens: 20,0 to 35,0 mm
Focal length: 28,0mm
Subject distance: 3,30 m
AF mode: AI Focus AF
Image size: 3072 x 2048
Rotation: none
Image quality: Fine
White balance: Auto
Color space: sRGB

Picture 2:
Image Serial Number: 149-4973
Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Firmware: Firmware Version 1.0.1
Date/Time: 2004:02:08 00:06:19
Shutter speed: 1/60 sec
Aperture: 4,0
Exposure mode: Auto
Flash: External E-TTL Auto + Red eye reduction
Flash EF guide number: 2047,97
Metering mode: Evaluative
Drive mode: Single frame shooting
ISO: 100
Lens: 20,0 to 35,0 mm
Focal length: 28,0mm
Subject distance: 655 m
AF mode: AI Focus AF
Image size: 3072 x 2048
Rotation: none
Image quality: Fine
White balance: Auto
Color space: sRGB

They have the same shutter speed and aperture. The only strange thing i see is this:
Picture 1: Subject distance: 3,30 m
Picture 2: Subject distance: 655 m

What could have caused the 655 m? Was it too dark?

I think 1/3 of pictures are reasonable, the rest is useless :(

Rob

[robvonk]

Maybe this is a better example:

http://www.robvonk.com/files/flash/CRW_5010.jpg

http://www.robvonk.com/files/flash/CRW_5011.jpg

Picture 1:

Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Firmware: Firmware Version 1.0.1
Date/Time: 2004:02:08 01:07:32
Shutter speed: 1/60 sec
Aperture: 4,0
Exposure mode: Program
Flash: External E-TTL High speed sync + Red eye reduction
Flash EF guide number: 2047,97
Metering mode: Evaluative
Drive mode: Single frame shooting
ISO: 100
Lens: 20,0 to 35,0 mm
Focal length: 30,0mm
Subject distance: 3,30 m
AF mode: One-shot AF
Image size: 3072 x 2048
Image quality: Raw
White balance: Auto
Color space: sRGB

Picture 2:

Camera Model: Canon EOS 10D
Firmware: Firmware Version 1.0.1
Date/Time: 2004:02:08 01:07:46
Shutter speed: 1/60 sec
Aperture: 4,0
Exposure mode: Program
Flash: External E-TTL High speed sync + Red eye reduction
Flash EF guide number: 2047,97
Metering mode: Evaluative
Drive mode: Single frame shooting
ISO: 100
Lens: 20,0 to 35,0 mm
Focal length: 31,0mm
Subject distance: 3,30 m
AF mode: One-shot AF
Image size: 3072 x 2048
Image quality: Raw
White balance: Auto
Color space: sRGB

It's the same angle, 14 seconds between the 1st and the second shot. Subject distance is the same in exif.

Strange huh?

Rob

[scottbergerphoto]

Why are you using High Speed Sync and Red Eye Reduction? You don't seem to need either in this situation. You don't get red eye with flash bounced off a ceiling. In addition, the angle of the flash or your distance from the subject is off, that's why only the top portion of the shots are lit.
As to why your second shots are black, I suspect that your flash is firing at its max on the first shot to provide adequate light, and not fully recharged when you took the second. Did you wait for the recycling sound(high pitched noise) to stop before you took the second picure?
Scott

[robvonk]

Good questions :)

I didn't pay attention to the red-eye reduction thing. I'm just an enthausiast amateur and borrowed this flash from someone. Didn't have much time to test it. Call me stupid. I know.. At least i could convince my wife now that i need an external flash of my own :)

For the second question: I would have guessed that the flash wouldn't fire off when it's not finished. The 'ready light' was definitly on. I have some pictures where the flash didn't go off and the camera just tried a long shutter time. So the flash just 'blocked'. In the first example i had 45 seconds difference. That should have been enough.

Rob

[Tom W]

Turn off the redeye reduction, and put fresh batteries in the flash. It may be ready but the redeye and/or exposure preflash may be depleting the charge before the main flash. Are you using NiCad's, Alkaline, or NiMH batteries? NiCads are a slightly lower voltage.

[scottbergerphoto]

Just another thought, the 380EX has a guide number of 38m at Iso 100, f/1.0 with fresh batteries. At f/4 the effective range of the flash is 38 / 4 = 9meters. You have to cover the distance from the flash head to the ceiling and from the ceiling to the subject in bounce flash. Since your straight on distance was 3.3 meters, if your ceiling was about 3 m high, your maxing out the range of the flash. So as already stated, your fully discharging the flash on less then fresh batteries on the first shot and not giving them enough time to catch their breath.
Red eye reduction is a waste of battery with bounce flash. It's firing the flash before the actual flash to close the pupils.
Use fresh batteries (alkaline or lithium) , fully recharged Nimh, or a fully recharged battery pack before each shoot.
Scott

[robvonk]

Okay, thanks for the good replies. I'm definitly learning here.

The bad thing is, i had thought of everything (except for testdrivig the flash). I had extra batteries for the camera and the 380, i shot raw, had my Xs-drive with me because of the raw.

The flash seemed to work. Thats why i didn't use the other batteries i brought with me... Too bad i can't shoot it all over :)

Time for me to get a flash of my own and testdrive it a lot.

[nosquare2003]

Just another thought, the 380EX has a guide number of 38m at Iso 100, f/1.0 with fresh batteries. At f/4 the effective range of the flash is 38 / 4 = 9meters. You have to cover the distance from the flash head to the ceiling and from the ceiling to the subject in bounce flash. Since your straight on distance was 3.3 meters, if your ceiling was about 3 m high, your maxing out the range of the flash. So as already stated, your fully discharging the flash on less then fresh batteries on the first shot and not giving them enough time to catch their breath.
Red eye reduction is a waste of battery with bounce flash. It's firing the flash before the actual flash to close the pupils.
Use fresh batteries (alkaline or lithium) , fully recharged Nimh, or a fully recharged battery pack before each shoot.
Scott

Hi Scott,

Perhaps, I'm wrong while I don't have a 380EX nor its manual. But if he's using the focal length about 28-30mm, the guide number may be even lower than 38.

[PaulB]

Hate to ask an obvious question - did you check the images on the LCD, or do you have auto preview turned off?
In such circumstances it is usually a good idea to be able to glance at the preview to make sure that eyes aren't shut, tongues not poked out and that there is something being recorded - after all you have the time before the flash recycles.

[Whaler]

Quick trick. . . . Get a 3 X 5 index card and fold it over the top of any flash in bounce position, it's amazing how much fill you will get from the reflection off the index card. For "happy snaps" like these I just use a omni bounce hood and shoot straight on.

[PacAce]

My guess is that you need a fresh set of batteries since the first picture in a sequence always seems to be properly exposed (or at least you're not having problems with it as far as the flash is concerned.) It looks like the second picture in the set was fired before the flash had a chance to charge up fully.

Either that or the flash had an internal problem with the capacitor or some other component that's not allowing it to charge fast enough with a good set of batteries.

Just as a side note, I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions here.

1. Red-eye reduction has nothing to do with the flash and hence cannot deplete the charge of the flash. The red-eye reduction is accomplished on the 10D with that little white bulb between the lens and the grip.

2. Since the fist picture was properly exposed and the 2nd was not, high-speed sync would not have had anything to do with the problem. AAMOF, if I'm not mistaken, high-speed sync is only active above shutter speeds of 1/200 on the 10D. At or below that, the flash reverts to normal flash mode.

[robvonk]

Yes i have the LCD preview on. I have it with histogram and i check my pictures all the time. I noticed the darknes imediatly but i couldn't figure out why it was.

One time the behaviour changed when i swithed from P (that i use 90% of the time) to Auto. Flash seemed to work after that. But it also worked later when i switched back.

Now that i look back i think refreshing the batteries is what i should have done. The flash worked usually fine after i've put my camera away for finishing my plate.

What bugs me is that the 'flash ready' light was always on. It wouldn't use the flash if it wasn't on yet. It should have enough power if the light is on.

Well, next time better. I'll sure try the 'card trick'

Rob

Oh, and one other thing is still strange.. Why is the distance 600m on the second picture in the first example. The room wasn't that big :)

[PacAce]

What bugs me is that the 'flash ready' light was always on. It wouldn't use the flash if it wasn't on yet. It should have enough power if the light is on.


Did you check the "ready" light before each shot or just the first shot in a sequence of two or more?

Me, I usually only check to make sure the ready light is on before I take my first shot. THen I'll shot a couple of shots within several seconds (usually long enough for the flash to charge up again) of each other and not bother to check the light again. But if the batteries not fresh, then I end up with pictures similar to yours.

:D

[PaulB]

On my 550EX there is a two-stage pilot (ready) light. On single shot the pilot light when yellow will allow shooting "at close range" - when full power is not necessary - for normal range full charge is indicated by the pilot light being red. On continuous shot only full charge (red) on the pilot light will give corect exposure.

The erroneous distance information my simply be that the AF had not locked on to the subject corectly and the picture was indeed way out of focus - with such a dark image it is impossible to tell.

Hope this may help a little more.

[Tom W]

Just as a side note, I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions here.

1. Red-eye reduction has nothing to do with the flash and hence cannot deplete the charge of the flash. The red-eye reduction is accomplished on the 10D with that little white bulb between the lens and the grip.

2. Since the fist picture was properly exposed and the 2nd was not, high-speed sync would not have had anything to do with the problem. AAMOF, if I'm not mistaken, high-speed sync is only active above shutter speeds of 1/200 on the 10D. At or below that, the flash reverts to normal flash mode.

I appreciate that - I was under the mistaken assumption that the red-eye preflash came from the main flash unit, but that isn't correct. I guess I've spent too much time with my S-400.

As for High speed synch, I know its only active when the switch is in the FP position on the flash, but I don't know if it acts in that mode regardless of actual shutter speed, or if it needs >1/200 AND the FP selected on the flash.

[robvonk]

On my 550EX there is a two-stage pilot (ready) light. On single shot the pilot light when yellow will allow shooting "at close range" - when full power is not necessary - for normal range full charge is indicated by the pilot light being red. On continuous shot only full charge (red) on the pilot light will give corect exposure.
Hope this may help a little more.

Well, IF the 380 EX has the same feature, that could be the problem. The bounce makes that it isn't 'a close range' shot. I didn't check the color of the light. I will next time! (with my own speedlite)

I searched for a PDF version of the manual but i can't find it. And i don't have the device here.

Thanks for all the reactions.

Rob

[scottbergerphoto]

Just another thought, the 380EX has a guide number of 38m at Iso 100, f/1.0 with fresh batteries. At f/4 the effective range of the flash is 38 / 4 = 9meters. You have to cover the distance from the flash head to the ceiling and from the ceiling to the subject in bounce flash. Since your straight on distance was 3.3 meters, if your ceiling was about 3 m high, your maxing out the range of the flash. So as already stated, your fully discharging the flash on less then fresh batteries on the first shot and not giving them enough time to catch their breath.
Red eye reduction is a waste of battery with bounce flash. It's firing the flash before the actual flash to close the pupils.
Use fresh batteries (alkaline or lithium) , fully recharged Nimh, or a fully recharged battery pack before each shoot.
Scott
Hi Scott,

Perhaps, I'm wrong while I don't have a 380EX nor its manual. But if he's using the focal length about 28-30mm, the guide number may be even lower than 38.
That's a good point. The Guide Number formula for distance: [Distance = Guide Number / f stop ] doesn't have a variable to account for the flash head zooming in and out if the 380EX does that. If the flash head doesn't automatically zoom, it shouldn't matter what lens he was using.
Scott

[robvonk]

If you bounce the flash to the ceiling (like i did), it automaticly sets it to 50mm.