Are Europeans rich?

[Cadenza]

In dpreview's Pro-1 preview, it says:

>The Pro1 will be priced at $999 in the US and €1199 in Europe.

Are all you Europeans rich? €1199 in Euros is
equal to $1500 in U.S. dollars. Heck, no one
here in the U.S. would pay this much for a few
glorified pieces of plastic and glass. (Unless,
of course, you're from the U.S. Defense Dept.)

Competition is heating up; I bet the street price
of the Pro-1 will be closer to $700-$800. Watch
the used market be flooded with G5s this year.

[civis]

Most EU member nations are victims of ridiculously high, confiscatory rates of "Value Added" Taxation (VAT). They add the VAT on to the base price on the shelf, so they never see the before tax" price. This effectively obscures their high tax rate, because many people don't do the numbers in their heads.

Take a look:

http://www.vrc-vatrefund.com/chart_en.pdf

When you're just a tourist, you can have VAT refunded (since you don't really use their public and social services). I fill out a form and have them refunded when I visit the UK a couple of times each year.

[PeterS45]

Most EU member nations are victims of ridiculously high, confiscatory rates of "Value Added" Taxation (VAT). They add the VAT on to the base price on the shelf, so they never see the before tax" price.

In fact VAT is 19% in this country, so the before tax price would be 1,008.-- Euros and that's still $ 1.200,-- plus. And yes, prices are higher here, and I suppose that makes us richer because somehow we're able to pay them :D .

[robvonk]

Define 'rich'. If we have the same job, but one of us earns more (lets say one is getting 1000 and one is getting 1200). Then we both can buy the same camera.

Probably the reason why the camera's are higher priced here is because the market in the USA is a lot bigger.

Thats one of the reasons why i bought 6 lenses in the USA (two for me and the rest for friends).

There are price differences in europe too. Camera's are a lot cheaper in germany than they are in the netherlands. The price difference on my 28-105 was 100 euro (125 dollar at the current rate). I only needed to drive three hours for it.

[Riccardo]

In Italy VAT is 20%, but in other Europeans countries (Sverige and Danmark) is 25% !!!
In all photografic market the prices in USA are cheaper.
I can found a G5 in USA for less than $520 that is €420. In europe the cheaper price is €600 (500+VAT) that is €80 more expensive (20%).
We are not richer, but poorer of 20% + 20%.
Ciao
Riccardo

[PeterS45]

In Italy VAT is 20%, but in other Europeans countries (Sverige and Danmark) is 25% !!!

But Italy is by far more beautiful than Denmark 8), and I would love to pay 20% VAT and be able to sit in the sun every day.

[pompeygreg]

But then again even the base rate at McDonalds in Denmark is the equivalent of £9.50 per hour ($17 per hour). But Income tax is 37%.....

well according to a man in a pub anway!

[Cadenza]

But then again even the base rate at McDonalds in Denmark is the equivalent of £9.50 per hour ($17 per hour). But Income tax is 37%.....!

And that's what so hard swallow for us American with our
cheap priced Canon cameras... That the average working
person in Europe has a better standard of living in the U.S.
U.S. standard of living would be even lower, if we didn't
have all this cheap Mexican labor around to sustain our
way of living... Our crime rates are higher, and so is our
income inequity -- but boy, aren't our tax rates low!

Last time I was Europe, 1 US dollar = 1.15 Euro...
Waiting for the Euro to go down again (so I can go
take pictures of Italy),

Cadenza

[Jesper]

Are all you Europeans rich? €1199 in Euros is
equal to $1500 in U.S. dollars. Heck, no one
here in the U.S. would pay this much for a few
glorified pieces of plastic and glass. (Unless,
of course, you're from the U.S. Defense Dept.)


Rich? No! We just have outrageous tax rates compared to the USA. In the Netherland the VAT is 19%. Also, prices here always include tax, while in the USA prices are (almost) always mentioned without tax.

The salaries in the USA are MUCH higher than here in Europe. My brother moved to the USA two years ago. For the same job, he gets TWICE as much money in the USA as he got in Europe. On the other side, the cost of living (rent, food in supermarkets etc.) is much more expensive in the USA.

But neat toys are much cheaper in the USA than here.

[pradeep1]

From all the European photog magazines I read, I translate their prices to US prices as follows:

1200 Euros priced camera will sell for $1000 in the USA
1200 Pound priced camera will sell for $1200 in the USA.

What do you guys think?

[civis]

What do you guys think?
I think that the Pound Sterling is a stable currency, and the UK shouldn't adopt the Euro. I think that France and Germany should stop exempting themselves from economic rules - rules that they foist on all of the other EU nations (good enough for me, but not for thee, you lowly peasants). I think that those two nations should follow the rules they agreed to, and stop acting like latter-day Bourbons and Hohenzollerns.

[snapperv6]

..... Bourbons and Hohenzollerns.

If I knew what that meant I'd agree with ya! :oops:

Thinking.....

Hell it's bound to be derogatory, I'll agree with ya anyhoo! :P :P

[roanjohn]

Yes and no.........

Well some are...........and some are so-so............while some a dirt poor.

Ro1

[pradeep1]

What do you guys think?
I think that the Pound Sterling is a stable currency, and the UK shouldn't adopt the Euro. I think that France and Germany should stop exempting themselves from economic rules - rules that they foist on all of the other EU nations (good enough for me, but not for thee, you lowly peasants). I think that those two nations should follow the rules they agreed to, and stop acting like latter-day Bourbons and Hohenzollerns.

Hi Civis,

I was referring to my approximations on how to convert between British/European prices and US prices.

Yeah, I don't like them Bourbons and Hohenzollerns either. They keep gucking up my windshield when I drive around at night trying to photograph bugs. :D

And yes, Europeans are richer than Americans. And better looking too, if I might add. :wink:

[civis]

And yes, Europeans are richer than Americans.
If you refer to the ~500,000 Luxembourgers, than yes they are, since Luxembourg is the only nation in the world with a higher per capita GDP (a reasonably good approximation of average income) than the USA. If you refer to any other Euro nation, then no they aren't. The closest is Norway, which comes in at #6, about 3,000 euros per annum behind the USA.

[civis]

..... Bourbons and Hohenzollerns.Hell it's bound to be derogatory...
Your perception is on the mark.

Both were hereditary monarchial families. Unlike the (to a large extent) more sensible British monarchial lines, they didn't saavy the concept of constitutional monarchy, just the iron-fist kind; "l'etat, c'est moi".

The first was crippled by the French Revolution (though it's open to debate if the bloodthirsty "first republic" was any improvement over the absolute monarchy ancien regime of the Bourbons). The Bourbons returned by popular demand (sort of), only to be finally booted in favor of the "second republic". I've lost track of which republican iteration is the current etat du jour.

The Hohenzollerns lasted until Kaiser Wilhelm II, and when he abdicated at the end of World War One, their power poofed, to be replaced by the Weimar Republic. Was the WR better? To a large degree, yes, but it wasn't sturdy (due partly to communist meddling from the East), and when it crumbled...the menace that rushed in to fill the power vacuum will be infamous for all time (though a communist tyranny would have been no better than the fascist version), coming in a close third in the tally of the butcher's bill, topped only by Mao's China and Stalin's Soviet Union in the numbers of lives snuffed out.

But, I digress...

Brussels has become a mouthpiece for Paris and Bonn, trying to sucker the UK into adopting their monopoly money, enacting economic guidelines for everyone to follow - everyone, that is, but France and Germany. It's bad enough that many Euro nations have sold their sovereignty up the river by doing so, no point in becoming suckers yourselves by adopting the Euro and the EU constitution.

(apologies for the inevitable spelling errors)

[RBarr]

Europeans should have a higher standard of living; except for Britain, none of them pay anything for defense.

[mookiemeister]

When I travelled to Europe for 3 weeks vacation, I noticed that many of the dat-to-day prices is simply higher in Europe than in the States after I convert the price from US dollar to Euro. I think the cost of living is higher in Europe than here. I wouldn't want to move to Europe because of the meager amount of money I have in the bank will be even more meager after converting to Euro.

[satnitefever]

Actually I think it's a case of exchange rates, the price of exports is more expensive for Japan to export to Eurozone than it is to America since the Euro has a higher exchange rate than the US dollar..

[satnitefever]

When I travelled to Europe for 3 weeks vacation, I noticed that many of the dat-to-day prices is simply higher in Europe than in the States after I convert the price from US dollar to Euro. I think the cost of living is higher in Europe than here. I wouldn't want to move to Europe because of the meager amount of money I have in the bank will be even more meager after converting to Euro.

Oh really? Where and how do I get a refund on taxes?

[PeterS45]

Actually I think it's a case of exchange rates, the price of exports is more expensive for Japan to export to Eurozone than it is to America since the Euro has a higher exchange rate than the US dollar..

So I can get rich easily by changing my Euros into US $ and use the Yen as intermediate???? :roll:

[satnitefever]

Actually I think it's a case of exchange rates, the price of exports is more expensive for Japan to export to Eurozone than it is to America since the Euro has a higher exchange rate than the US dollar..

So I can get rich easily by changing my Euros into US $ and use the Yen as intermediate???? :roll:

I thought yen was tagged to the American dollar?

[PeterS45]

Actually I think it's a case of exchange rates, the price of exports is more expensive for Japan to export to Eurozone than it is to America since the Euro has a higher exchange rate than the US dollar..

So I can get rich easily by changing my Euros into US $ and use the Yen as intermediate???? :roll:

I thought yen was tagged to the American dollar?

That's my point exactly. When the Yen is tagged to the dollar and there's an exchange rate of $ 1.25 for the Euro, the prices in Europe should be lower instead of higher.

[mvrekum]

In dpreview's Pro-1 preview, it says:

>The Pro1 will be priced at $999 in the US and €1199 in Europe.

Are all you Europeans rich? €1199 in Euros is
equal to $1500 in U.S. dollars. Heck, no one
here in the U.S. would pay this much for a few
glorified pieces of plastic and glass. (Unless,
of course, you're from the U.S. Defense Dept.)

Competition is heating up; I bet the street price
of the Pro-1 will be closer to $700-$800. Watch
the used market be flooded with G5s this year.

The streetprice of the european cameras will be about 75% of the adviced retail price, so about €900 ($ 1125 at the todays exchange course)

[Jesper]

When I travelled to Europe for 3 weeks vacation, I noticed that many of the dat-to-day prices is simply higher in Europe than in the States after I convert the price from US dollar to Euro. I think the cost of living is higher in Europe than here. I wouldn't want to move to Europe because of the meager amount of money I have in the bank will be even more meager after converting to Euro.

The cost of living is not higher in Europe (at least not in the Netherlands...). If I see in the USA that a bread costs 5 dollars in a supermarket, and a piece of cheese 7 dollars, and the rent of my brothers' small apartment (which is in a small town, not even in a big city) is almost $1000 (almost twice my rent, and my apartment is bigger and close to a big city), I don't believe that cost of living is higher in Europe.

Some things are cheap in the USA, and other things are expensive, compared to Europe. Expensive: food in the supermarket (1.5x - 2x the price), rent. Cheap: clothes (a Levi's that costs $35 in the USA costs €65 here), electronics and photography toys, gasoline (3x - 4x cheaper), cars.

[civis]

If I see in the USA that a bread costs 5 dollars in a supermarket, and a piece of cheese 7 dollars, and the rent of my brothers' small apartment (which is in a small town, not even in a big city) is almost $1000 (almost twice my rent, and my apartment is bigger and close to a big city), I don't believe that cost of living is higher in Europe.
Bread at 5 dollars for a loaf? Was this at a convenience store or a full-service supermarket? I pay a little over two dollars for bread at my local warehouse supermarket, so I'd like to know where they expect to get 5 for a loaf. What type of cheese was that and how large (weight) was the piece?

What town is that $1,000 apartment in? Is that a small studio apartment? If not, how many bedrooms? How many square feet, approximately?

[civis]

Oh really? Where and how do I get a refund on taxes?
If you are speaking of VAT taxes, and you are a visitor that is a non-"EC" citizen, this is how I get mine from the UK for VAT paid during my visits there:

http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/vatrefunds/vatrefunds.htm

[morrisman]

Taxes may be higher in the UK but our healthcare is generally free.

[civis]

Taxes may be higher in the UK but our healthcare is generally free.
Is it of the same quality, as prompt, and as cheerily courteous as that given by non-NHS (private) providers?

(I know the answer to this, from personal experience, but I'd be interested to hear how you spin it)

[satnitefever]

Oh really? Where and how do I get a refund on taxes?
If you are speaking of VAT taxes, and you are a visitor that is a non-"EC" citizen, this is how I get mine from the UK for VAT paid during my visits there:

http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/vatrefunds/vatrefunds.htm

Oh, heh I thought we would be able to get a refund at our local embassy..

[morrisman]

Taxes may be higher in the UK but our healthcare is generally free.

I read in today's paper that an American family of two adults and two children pay on average $1000 a month for healthcare insurance. This seems rather a lot. Is it true? You must be rich to be able to afford that.

[civis]

Taxes may be higher in the UK but our healthcare is generally free.

I read in today's paper that an American family of two adults and two children pay on average $1000 a month for healthcare insurance. This seems rather a lot. Is it true? You must be rich to be able to afford that.
Which paper was that? I'd like to review the article. Times? Telegraph? Mirror? Sun?

They might have an agenda. If the paper has a pro-NHS editorial policy, and wanted to write an article that tends to support that view (in which case they'd consider only families that had no employer-provided benefits, or weight the data heavily in that direction). By doing this, they'd make going to a non-NHS system look prohibitively expensive.

[Malok]

I realize that this is a forum on cameras, but I'll throw in some personal info none the less.

I just moved back to the US after having lived in Europe for the past 12 years. The insurance situation here is way out of control. The figure you quoted is not far from the truth, though you might be able to get some cheap insurance for about $800 a month for a family of 4. My wife and I were covered by an international company who promptly dropped us after we moved to the US and my wife discovered she had a thyroid problem. We've not been able to find a company that will take us on without paying more money than we have. Right now my wife is in the UK for an operation as her home country will provide coverage for free. If we would have paid for the operation ourselves in the US it would have cost us $25,000 we don't have.

The average incomes in the US are very high, many of the prices here are very high, but the average American seems to have more money to spend on extras than the average European. Perhaps they don't have the money, but are following the American trend of living in incredible debt? I don't know who is richer, but I do know that the grass always looks greener on the other side.

Malok

[Andy_T]

Taxes may be higher in the UK but our healthcare is generally free.

I read in today's paper that an American family of two adults and two children pay on average $1000 a month for healthcare insurance. This seems rather a lot. Is it true? You must be rich to be able to afford that.

You must be lucky in the UK.

In Germany, healthcare is also 'free'.

However, about 10% is deducted every month from my salary for health care, my employer pays about the same amount ... not exactly *free*.

PS: I just had a visit at my dentist. He told me that healthcare will pay about 10 % of the $ 3000 operation he thinks is necessary for me.

Regards,
Andy

[civis]

This is interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fhealth%2F2003%2F12%2F10%2Fhnhs10 .xml

It might also be disheartening, if one believes in the NHS. Personally, after one experience with NHS on one of my visits to the UK, now would go to a private clinic with my VISA card if there was a need, rather than diddle with the surly NHS.

For a idea of what insurance roughly costs in the USA (assuming good health, with no pre-existing conditions), go here:

https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/

Do the "instant quote". Enter in a zip code in the box (try 92101 for downtown San Diego or 60653 for Chicago, just two possibilities). Enter in genders and ages/birthdates, and that's it.

Of course, insurance would be considerably more with a pre-existing condition, or for one not in good health, but that's expected - if a person has a history of causing accidents, we wouldn't expect their car insurance rates to be as low as one with a clean driving record.

There's always medicaid if you are indigent, and no hospital can legally refuse emergency treatment because of lack of ability to pay for it. In Mexico, than can refuse, which is why they ambulance their poorer patients up here to "el Norte", where they can't refuse them, illegal alien or not.

[pradeep1]

That cost figure is probably accurate. I have health insurance through my company (my own company) and the premiums for just my wife and I are over $300. And we are young, in good health, with no pre-existing conditions. The rate keeps climbing every year by anywhere between 20-30%. Plus on top of that, there is a $100 surcharge for my wife for "pregnancy" coverage. So that comes out to over $400/month right now.

So I figure a family of four with small to medium age children and thirtysomething parents with no employer-sponsored health insurance would easily pay above $1200/month in premiums for their coverage.

At the rate my health insurance premiums are climbing every year, I'll be paying $1200/month in five years time for just covering the two of us with no pregnancy rider on the contract! :x :cry:

Talk about ridiculous.

[civis]

You can always tell who dreams of living in a bogged-down, socialist nanny-state, and who doesn't (and I mention no names).

[morrisman]

I like this website.

Not only do you get very good advice on photography but you can also attract comments on other matters from around the world.

Incidently Tony Blair keeps assuring us that the NHS is getting better under a Labour government. The trouble is that in order to find out just how much better it is getting the NHS has to employ vast armies of office staff to gather statistics which in itself costs a lot of money. Tony Blair also assured us that we were going to war with Saddam because he had weapons of mass destruction but that is an entirely different topic ...

[pradeep1]

You can always tell who dreams of living in a bogged-down, socialist nanny-state, and who doesn't (and I mention no names).

Yes, civis, my rant did sound like that, but considering the rate of escalation of healthcare costs in comparison to any other economic growth factors is frightening. Imagine when 60-80% of the US population cannot afford healthcare, as compared to the 15-20% it is right now.

If healthcare costs keeping rising at a relatively modest 18% clip (mine are rising closer to 30% annually), then in 20 years, we will be paying 27 times what we are paying now for health insurance. Whereas your salary will only be 3.2 as much (assuming a good 6% increase in real wages).

So if you earn $50,000 and your employer pays you and your family's health insurance bill, say $1000/monthly (to be modest). Then in twenty years, your salary will be approximately $160,000 and your health insurance benefits will cost $324,000 annually.

Two things I doubt.

1. Your salary will actually be $160,000 in 20 years.
2. Your employer is going to pay out that kind of benefits.

The implications are scary.

On a side note, the last time I visited India, there were so many top notch hospitals cropping up all over the place for "medical tourists". These are people from Western countries who cannot afford medicine there and therefore come on tourist visas to India for medical work. Anything from heart transplants to bypass surgeries. This is becoming big business in India, and since India is already on the forefront amongst developing nations for attracting "service" jobs, this could become a large portion of India's GDP in the future. Right now, there are world class facilities going up in India. I am very skeptical of third-world countries in general and their infrastructure. I am from India originally, but am an American...lived here all my life. But with the rate of development and the inflow of so much capital due to the IT and manufacturing boom there, the hospitals there are wonderful.

An average bypass surgery in the USA is on the order of a FEW $100Ks. In India, you can go to a top hospital in a cosmopolitan city such as Bangalore (The Silicon Valley of India) and get that procedure done and stay in five star accomodations for less then $6000. No kidding!

Same thing with drugs. For example, the acid-reducing drug, Zantac, which costs maybe $9.00 at Walmart for 50 pills can be bought in India at prescription doses (150mg vs. the 75 mg. you get here) for $2.00 for 250 tablets. That's a difference of $0.004/pill to $.18/pill. That's a 45X factor in prices. And what's funny is that this is across the board in so many things related to medical services there that the thought of medical tourism will become viable to a lot of Westerners in the upcoming future if the medical system cannot be properly controlled.

And so the debate rages on... :P

[morrisman]

If this discussion has done anything it has clearly exposed the need for a dedicated healthcare messageboard somewhere on the web.

PS In the UK healthcare insurance is optional. I suspect that the only people who insure themselves are those who are expecting to make use of the insurance. They are also the sort of people who are determined to get more out than they put in. Hence the insurance rates go up so much faster than inflation.