Help my shoot my family, please. (G3 and 430EX)

[rowdyred94]

I need to make it through another holiday season and also get some portraits of my two little angels before I'll be able to afford a DSLR. I understand the elementary concepts of photography but have little formal experience with shooting portraits.

Can I achieve decent lighting with one flash and some homegrown lighting? How would I do that? Foamboard? Shop lights? Fireworks?

What settings should I use as a baseline? I assume ISO 50 or 100 will yield the best quality, but what shutter/aperature combo? Zoom level? I do have the teleconverter, for what that's worth.

I'm pretty good with Photoshop and have been reading here for days, but it's hard to get it all organized in my head without starting somewhere.

Thanks.

[andrewaaa5]

erm, not sure what kind of shots you are after, but with the g3 and ex430 combo (that you already have), and IF you are indoors, i'd just put the camera on AUTO, and bounce the flash off the ceiling (that is if the ceiling is not too high, and if the ceiling is 'white', or 'close' to white, cream etc) If the ceiling is a different colour, e.g. brown, or red etc, it will create a nasty colour tint on the images using this 'bounced flash' technique. I've also mentioned previously that a home made diffuser can be used, such as bubble wrap, to add more 'catch-light' in the eyes. see here:

http://home.comcast.net/~dougsmit/bounceflashtoys.html

with well exposed photos, you can do what you like with them later in photoshop if need be..,.
if you want to use ambient light (and capture all the warmth of the christmas lights) then shoot without a flash, but bear in mind that longer exposure times are needed, and thus a tripod could be employed.

all the best with it, and don't forget to enjoy the YULETIDE ; )

[tweatherred]

In general portraits use a wide aperture to keep the background out of focus and help the subject stand out; make sure the eyes are in focus as that is where people tend to look when viewing a portrait. The subject will also stand out more if they are not too close to the background as that keeps the background out of focus as well as keeping it darker depending on your lighting setup. For me getting decent portraits is hard, but I am learning. There are a lot of resources on the net, especially the forum you are in right now.

[rabidcow]

In general portraits use a wide aperture to keep the background out of focus and help the subject stand out;

WHAT? I do portrait work for a living and that is just plain out there. A wide aperture will cause the DOF to be far too narrow, and the subject will be softer than if you used a smaller aperture. And when talking about groups, f/11 should be the absolute widest that you go, f/16 or f/22 might be a better choice. (though some lenses are quite soft at f/22 as well as wide open)

Controling the background bokeh does not always mean using you aperture, Bokeh can also be controlled with focal length.

[rabidcow]

And to help the OP, I would stay with ISO 200 or less, as the smaller sensor on the G3 lends it to have more noise at higher ISO. I also recommend taking a test shot in similar lighting, setting you camera to your desired ISO, then maybe f/16 and the drag the shutter out to 1/30 of a second as this will allow the capture of ambient light with the flash as your primary source of light for your subjects. (this is situational dependent, if the ambient light meters at ISO200, f/16 and 1/30 the bump your shutter speed to 1/60th, always striving to put 1 stop between the flash power and the ambient light power when a flash is to be the primary source of light.)

[tweatherred]

WHAT? I do portrait work for a living and that is just plain out there. A wide aperture will cause the DOF to be far too narrow, and the subject will be softer than if you used a smaller aperture. And when talking about groups, f/11 should be the absolute widest that you go, f/16 or f/22 might be a better choice. (though some lenses are quite soft at f/22 as well as wide open)

Controling the background bokeh does not always mean using you aperture, Bokeh can also be controlled with focal length.

I will certainly defer to you since you do this for a living, but I have seen other portrait photographers recommend an aperture of 4 or 5.6. I can definitely see where a very wide aperture would be too narrow for a group, though.

[rowdyred94]

Thanks for the replies. So I shouldn't bother with additional lights? I did read about the diffusers.

Rabidcow, my G3 goes to f8. Is there a factor in the system that I'm not understanding? You're a bit over my head with OP and bokeh.

[rabidcow]

Sorry, OP means Original Poster, in this case...you. Bokeh is the out of focus behind the subject (pronounced bo-kay) As for a minimum aperture of f/8, well, rats. F/8 it is.


but I have seen other portrait photographers recommend an aperture of 4 or 5.6.

I sounded a bit rude there, sorry, I come across that way quite a bit. I am an f/8 man myself, it is usually the sharpest aperture to work with, though it sometimes falls between f/8 and f/11. Larger apertures are fine when there is some distance between you and the subject, but smaller apetures allow for good DOF even when doing a close-up, though for extreme close-ups I will usually stop down to f/16.

Wide aperture photography is great when talking about glamour or impact photography, but for most portrait work consumers don't "get" why the entire face is not in focus, so I eliminate that from the equation.

[RafaPolit]

Im sorry rabidcow, but I think you are not fully considering the OPs equipment: F/8 would almost positively render a very long (if not hyperfocal) DOF, and even at F/4 or so you will barely see any blured background. Also, F/8 will require extremely low shutter speeds when working at ISO50 or even ISO100, and small kids tend to be a bit restless!

rowdyred94, I think you are safe using large appertures in the G3 without risking portions of the face out of focus. And stay as low in the ISO as possible. Use zoom ranges at 80mm or so (35mm equivalents), if you go too wide in the zoom, you will have perfectly sharp pictures all the way: Foreground and Background.

Hope it helps, and show us your pictures!

Rafa Polit Jr.

[goatee]

Just one other thing - have a quick read of http://www.planetneil.com/faq/flash-techniques.html. Basically it will show you that you shouldn't just consider bouncing off the ceiling, but walls are also good - in fact anything you can. I've found bouncing off the wall and ceiling (so off to the side at 45 degrees or a bit more) works better as you get more light in the eye sockets, which can get quite dark if the light is coming straight down.

[rowdyred94]

Thanks, folks.

I've been doing some shooting in the only suitable place in my house, a rec room downstairs with seven foot white ceilings. In order to use ISO100 I have to go F2.8 and 1/30th. I don't even feel like I have other options without raising the ISO. The shutter speed gets too long.

Thanks for the link, goatee. It seems to be just what I needed.

[rowdyred94]

I'm trying to make this work, but they're all coming out fried and soft. This one was 1/30 @ f/3.2 with the flash cranked and back over my shoulder in a raw drywall room. Obviously it was too much, but I can't figure out why they're soft. Is it the shutter speed?

http://cabuhs.net/photo/evan_port1.jpg

Here I remembered to pull back and I tried different flash power and angle.

http://cabuhs.net/photo/jo_adrien_port1.jpg

[rowdyred94]

White balance helped a bit.

http://cabuhs.net/photo/jo_port1.jpg

[RafaPolit]

rowdyred94,

I think your pictures are realy nice!

I believe the ISO setting (Im assuming an iso 100) is rendering some noise which flatens the image, since the noise is uniform through the picture, and produced some blur. Try using ISO 50 to achieve lower noise.

The Shutter speed is not rendering blur in my opinion, but going to ISO 50 would complicate things a bit with the shutter speed.

There is always the option of post processing a bit... I did a very (very) quick work on your first image using NeatImage for noise reduction, a slight hue adjustment (this can be worked better, my result has some odd skin tones), some leveling to bring a little more contrast (although some detail is lost in his shirt), and some Smart Sharpening. All the processes made in Photoshop CS2. I think the softness is reduced (although still a bit there! :oops: ), but of course there is more work needed, specialy to correct the redish skin that is introduced in the process, as well as some yellow cast he has on his hand. His index finger is indeed blured by motion. (I know you dont have ImageEditing On, if you mind me posting your image, I will delete immediately!, sorry)

Of course, this procedure would yield better results in the original file, this is worked on your already compressed and resized JPG posted, so you will achieve good results from the originals with some masking, hueing, denoising and sharpening.

Hope this helps.

http://www.teatrosucre.com/externos/evan_port_Changes.jpg

Rafa Polit Jr.

[rabidcow]

just try f/8, and let your speedlight be the dominant source of light.

[rowdyred94]

Thank you, Rafa! I'm happy to have the help, but I haven't found the editing permission setting yet. Where is that bugger? You did a great job with my boy. I monkeyed around in PS a bit but don't have skin work down yet. I'll have to look for some tutorials.

RC, if I'm at f/8 my shutter speed gets too slow. I'm shooting at 4 or bigger just to get these. Maybe I need to reflect more flash. Raw drywall isn't very reflective.

I appreciate the help from both of you.

[rowdyred94]

I went to ISO 50, but now I'm at +3 EC on the flash and 1/20th @ f/2.2. As you can see, I'm getting motion blur. I'll pick up some foamboard when I get a chance.

http://cabuhs.net/photo/evan_hammer1.jpg

[RafaPolit]

rowdyred94,

Sorry for the late answer!, this time of year it gets very busy :oops: .

I see you have enabled the image editing, so Im late in replying to your question.

About your setting: When you say Raw DryWall, do you mean not painted nor plastered surface? How high is your ceiling? I ask this because it strikes me as odd to require such low speed at that high apperture using flash, even if bounced!

I have couple suggestions as to check if everything is working as expected, they may sound kind of silly, but here they go:
- Check that the ND filter is not truned on! this will severely cut down light.
- The 430 has options for overriding the cameras settings, make sure that this overrides are off, or make flash compensation changes directly in the flash.
- The 430 has a transparent flip screen that can be dragged over the bulb of the flash, make sure this screen is retracted.
- Are you using any sort of diffuser in the flash? This may be reducing the flashes power.

As for your shooting settings, I strongly disagree with rabidcow about using f/8. My father's (rpolitsr in this forum) Pro1 consistently shoots sharper in f/4 or f/5.6 and has no softness at wider settings (I believe he will drop a line in here sooner or later ;) ). This has also been the experience with many other G users in the Speed Challenges.

The foamboards are a good idea to try out. Let us know how things are coming,

Rafa Polit Jr.

[rowdyred94]

ND filter is off, though I had to look that up to be sure. Funny, even the G3 manual doesn't tell me what ND stands for.

EC set on the flash, no diffuser. Raw drywall meaning as-purchased from the lumber yard. Light gray but with a matte paper finish. Room size is about 12 x 15, cieling 7 ft.

I think I just need to get more light reflected forward. I'll pick up some foamboard tomorrow.

Thanks again!

[rpolitsr]

Hi rowdyred94
Summoned by my son I’m here. :)
Just kidding. You started an interesting thread and I began this post a while back, but I need some time to write in English :( .

I will put some of my thoughts here although some were already posted by others in this very thread.

Without professional lights or strobes, the best advise is let your speedlite be the dominant source of light as rabidcow wrote

Turn the tungsten lights near your subject off and turn off any fluorescent lights, they are difficult to match to the flash without specialized color correction filters.

As a user of SLRs and powershot cameras, I think that shooting at f 4.0 or f 5.6 will yield the best results due to the small sensor of the G3. Figures as f 8.0, f 16 or f 22 are apertures to consider for SLR film cameras or for the bigger sensor of a DSLR.

The 430EX is a powerful flash. Bounce it from the ceiling or a side wall if they are white or use a white square piece of Styrofoam or similar material. Use another Styrofoam as additional bouncer if there are deep shadows in the subjects.

You do not need to use slow shutter speeds:
Turn Slow Synchro to OFF, Flash Adjust to AUTO and Flash compensation to 0 (zero) as a starting value in the camera’s menu.

Be sure you set the 430EX to AUTO mode and choose E-TTL if it has the option (The 550EX must be set to E-TTL to work with the G3)

If you choose Tv mode, set the shutter speed somewhere from 1/60 sec. to 1/250 sec. that are the flash sync speeds for the G3.
If you choose Av mode, set the aperture to f4.0 or f5.6

Check the EXIF data of some good test pictures to start with those settings if you switch to Manual mode.

Shooting in RAW will be a great advantage if you need some post processing for white balance and exposure correction.

Let me know if something I wrote is wrong or does not work as expected. My Pro1 and 420EX are pretty close to your equipment, but there are some differences.

Good luck

P.S.: ND stands for Neutral Density filter. It is basically a dark optical glass that blocks the available light and allows just 1/8 of it to reach the sensor. (1/8 or 3 f stops in the G3. There are lighter and darker ND filters available).

You can vary the angle of the flash’s head to reach your subject taking into account the ceiling height and the distance to your subject

[rowdyred94]

Thank you very much, Mr. Polit. And thanks to Rafa for getting in touch with you!

Since I can't spend the money for lighting right now, I'll follow your advice exactly. I really appreciate it.

-Clint

[cyclone]

I'm trying to make this work, but they're all coming out fried and soft. This one was 1/30 @ f/3.2 with the flash cranked and back over my shoulder in a raw drywall room. Obviously it was too much, but I can't figure out why they're soft. Is it the shutter speed?

The Shutter speed is not rendering blur in my opinion

I guess I would disagree on this. Yes, 1/30s and 1/20s are way too slow for shutter speeds. Even if you have the camera set on a tripod, the subject (especially kids) will move a tiny bit.

rpolitsr here has some good advice.

[rabidcow]

Shutter speed does not matter when the flash is the dominant source of light.

Here is an example. You can clearly see where the flash has frozen the subject, and where ambient light has overpowered. This was shot at .6 sec and trust me, the couple did not stand that still. But the flash was the dominant source of light on them, so they are frozen.

[rowdyred94]

I've failed to mention that I have several overhead fluorescents in the room. They're probably what's causing my blur, right?

[RafaPolit]

Hi rowdyred94,

Im not sure about the fluorescents causing blur, but for sure they are providing that strange greenish hue in your kids hair and chick (the hue is present in all the picture, but more evident on this parts ;) )

As my father said, probably better to avoid fluorescents mixed with flash. The incandescent bulbs bring a yellow warmth to the picture, but blueish-green from cool lights presents a problem for portraits in my opinion.

Rafa Polit Jr.

[cyclone]

Shutter speed does not matter when the flash is the dominant source of light.

I agree with this statement....but he is down to the point where you could say that he is dragging the shutter. At that point, you need to have the subject stay somewhat still, especially when you have a good deal of ambient light, as he does here. You have a good example, but I think the OP had much more ambient than you did. Especially at an aperture of f2.2. OK, I'm talking myself into that the aperture is the culprit.

[cyclone]

OK, I need to stop posting while the kids are talking at me.

Rowdy, what mode did you use? If you used Av or Tv mode, then the flash will act as a fill flash, rather than the sole source of light. I assume that you did not use P mode, because then the camera should then use the flash sync speed, which will be faster than 1/30s.

So, if you used Av or Tv mode, you could get blur because the flash did not overpower the ambient (as rabidcow puts it).

[rowdyred94]

I've been in Manual. Things are going much better after all your advice. I'll post more soon.

[cyclone]

I've been in Manual. Things are going much better after all your advice. I'll post more soon.

Then I think that you just had too much ambient. Even though the flash is trying to be the dominant light source, the ratio between flash and ambient isn't that big. So when you used a shutter of 1/20s or 1/30s (with an aperture of f2.2), you get some motion blur due to the strong ambient and the slow shutter. In rabidcow's picture, the ratio between flash and ambient was very large, so that the flash was the dominant source of light on the couple.

I'm happy things are going better, and look forward to seeing your great shots.

[jrjphoto]

Ditto, folks. I'll do twilight portraits with the shutter dragged a good 3 seconds, camera on tripod and strobes with CTO filters (if I'm allowing for street lamp ambience, which is tungsten, so I shoot with the CTO filter and white balance for tungsten which keeps color temperature consistent).

Remember this rule of thumb: You can control your strobed subject's exposure via aperture and you can control the background with your shutter speed. The faster the shutter speed, the darker the background. The slower the shutter, the lighter the background but also the more ambient light spill and more blur.

[rowdyred94]

That's what I'm learning - the relationships Jason mentioned. My holiday candids were much better for it.