"Tim's Myth", Ottawa, 15/12/06@ Capital City Music Hall

[Nick_b]

First I would like to thank every one who took the time to answer my questions. It is much appreciated!

This gig was a battle of the bands deal put on by a great local radio station. The lighting and production was great. This compition has been going on for about 6 months now and the winners Tim's Myth has taken home 350 000 dollars in talent development. The show was fantastic. You can hear some of their music here. www.myspace.com/tmyth (http://www.myspace.com/tmyth) I suggest "Electrico"

1.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0711.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0711.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

2.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0609.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0609.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

3.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0671.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0671.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

4.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0658.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0658.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

5.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0684.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_0684.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

6.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_1680.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_1680.jpg%5B/IMG%5D)

Who knows, maybe they will be lucky enough to have one of you to photograph them if they make it big.

[DwightMcCann]

Really nice ... look they could use some post resizing sharpening though ... a tad soft.

[Nick_b]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll do some searching for some better sharpening technics. I usually USM- amount 7-20, radius 150, threshold 0.

[johnstoy]

Nic_b,

Your composition is pretty good as are the colors...the sharpening is an issue here...What lens did you use?

[dpurslow]

really nice stage light but they all look a little soft to me also

[Nick_b]

I was having some focus issues with the 50mm 1.8 so the softness might be atributed to that. I usually use the center focus point and lock focus and recompose. This is ok unless the subject is moving like crazy of course. So how can I tell if the softness is a focus problem or just because of the buget lens? I'm hoping to aquire a 85mm 1.8 sometime in the new year. Is it futile to expect proper focus with this lens? Or does it look like user error?

[johnstoy]

I was having some focus issues with the 50mm 1.8 so the softness might be atributed to that. I usually use the center focus point and lock focus and recompose. This is ok unless the subject is moving like crazy of course. So how can I tell if the softness is a focus problem or just because of the buget lens? I'm hoping to aquire a 85mm 1.8 sometime in the new year. Is it futile to expect proper focus with this lens? Or does it look like user error?

Looking the second time around, Nick, and the focus isn't that bad...
I sometimes use just the single top center point, and focus on they eye...that way the head of the subject is in focus, and it is the top portion of the photo...If I just use the single central center point, to focus on the eye, then the head is in the center of the picture, and the guitar is cut on the bottom... So why so much wasted empty space above the head?...However, I find myself constantly switching the top center focus point from, landscape top center, back to portrait top center, and vice versa...

Since you mentioned the 85mm, there will be a difference.... you'll like it..though it is a tighter lens...from this same distance, you might have a problem getting the whole guitar in...but if these posted shots are trimmed, than it will be great...

I'll post Sha Na Na later this week in two segments...it's all with the 85mm, and for example, there are cross stage shots that are sharp too...or real up close, when they step on over to you... you'll love it as your second lens...

Again, I am real glad to see no flash used, the colors are great...Who knows, they might just call us the "No Flash Gang"...

[alan_potter]

I sometimes use just the single top center point, and focus on they eye...

I'm going to remember that... And as long as I remember always to take photos in landscape mode, I think that will be a very useful tip. Thanks, John.

regards,
/alan

[livewire-photography.com]

Great set, lighting is great, Nos 1 and 5 are my favs, but he has a rubbish mowhawk lol.
James...

[Nick_b]

Looking the second time around, Nick, and the focus isn't that bad...
I sometimes use just the single top center point, and focus on they eye...that way the head of the subject is in focus, and it is the top portion of the photo...If I just use the single central center point, to focus on the eye, then the head is in the center of the picture, and the guitar is cut on the bottom... So why so much wasted empty space above the head?...However, I find myself constantly switching the top center focus point from, landscape top center, back to portrait top center, and vice versa...

Since you mentioned the 85mm, there will be a difference.... you'll like it..though it is a tighter lens...from this same distance, you might have a problem getting the whole guitar in...but if these posted shots are trimmed, than it will be great...

I'll post Sha Na Na later this week in two segments...it's all with the 85mm, and for example, there are cross stage shots that are sharp too...or real up close, when they step on over to you... you'll love it as your second lens...

Again, I am real glad to see no flash used, the colors are great...Who knows, they might just call us the "No Flash Gang"...

I'll give the switching focus point trick. I tryed it a while back and just got discouraged because I like switching constantly.

None of the shots were trimed :) Sometimes I prefer doing portraits though and I was right up font the entire night. I didn't move an inch for 6 hours! The place was packed so I would have lost my spot.

Thanks again.... sorry for the delayed posting too. A water pipe busted in my living room so I've been moving stuff around and tearing up carpet for the last few days:( Looks like it will be a Charlie Brown Christmas this year.

[Nick_b]

Great set, lighting is great, Nos 1 and 5 are my favs, but he has a rubbish mowhawk lol.
James...


Ya, I know what you mean about the mowhawk! I used to be blue, it looked much better. Thanks for looking.

[DwightMcCann]

I'll give the switching focus point trick. I tryed it a while back and just got discouraged because I like switching constantly.
Yes, I switch the focus point almost constantly, particularly when switching from landscape to portrait. Other times: when shooting wide and headliner moves to one side of the stage, when I want some frames with the lighting trusses/lights above in the frame, when shooting tight and want to focus on face but have instrument in center ... I just wish the focus points went out nearer to the edges.

[johnstoy]

Yes, I switch the focus point almost constantly, particularly when switching from landscape to portrait. Other times: when shooting wide and headliner moves to one side of the stage, when I want some frames with the lighting trusses/lights above in the frame, when shooting tight and want to focus on face but have instrument in center ... I just wish the focus points went out nearer to the edges.


Exactly Dwight...The present focus points at the edges are just not close enough to the Face or Eye...

Edit:
I actually had to sacrifice the feet to stay focused on the head, even with the top center focus point on target...

[kmb]

I always use the center focus point (5D, 20D), since it is the only cross-type focus point and therefore most of the other focus points will cause hunting unless there's something suitable under them (I do focus on something "easy" always, but it still isn't enough if the lights are low enough). I focus and recompose, or if the subject's moving, I crop afterwards. I wouldn't dare to use anything else than a cross-type focus point if there's lots of unpredictable movement (if there's predicatble movement, you can prefocus and take the picture when the subject is at the focused position).

The biggest problem I personally see with these pictures is clipped red channel, most evident in #4 (face). I'm sure that's one of the reasons for them looking soft.

[johnstoy]

KMB, what's a clipped red channel?

[bmoguy]

So why so much wasted empty space above the head?...However, I find myself constantly switching the top center focus point from, landscape top center, back to portrait top center, and vice versa...

Great tip, thanks. I ususally keep it on the center point. I lock on then re-frame the shot. But when things are moving, it gets a little tough to do.

[kmb]

KMB, what's a clipped red channel?

Each pixel in a digital image is recorded and stored as three separate values (numbers). They represent the amount of red, green and blue. It is possible to "burn" only one (or two) channels so that there is the maximum amount of that color (since the amount of that color passed to the sensor exceeded the maximum value the sensor can record). This will then result to the loss of the detail that is mostly reprsented in the given color (since its just flat maximum value on the area where the channel has been clipped), and therefore clipped channels will contribute to the perceived softness of a photo.

In photoshop, you can verify whether a channel is clipped by watching the Info-dialog while moving the mouse cursor around the area which you suspect has been channel-clipped. If the value of red (or green or blue) reaches the maximum number of 255, then the channel is clipped.

[Nick_b]

Each pixel in a digital image is recorded and stored as three separate values (numbers). They represent the amount of red, green and blue. It is possible to "burn" only one (or two) channels so that there is the maximum amount of that color (since the amount of that color passed to the sensor exceeded the maximum value the sensor can record). This will then result to the loss of the detail that is mostly reprsented in the given color (since its just flat maximum value on the area where the channel has been clipped), and therefore clipped channels will contribute to the perceived softness of a photo.

In photoshop, you can verify whether a channel is clipped by watching the Info-dialog while moving the mouse cursor around the area which you suspect has been channel-clipped. If the value of red (or green or blue) reaches the maximum number of 255, then the channel is clipped.

Thank you for that explination, and you are right. Many of the highlights are blown out on the red channel.

Do you or anyone else have any tips for preventing this or corrective PP procedures to reduce this problem? Thank you.

[DwightMcCann]

Thank you for that explination, and you are right. Many of the highlights are blown out on the red channel.

Do you or anyone else have any tips for preventing this or corrective PP procedures to reduce this problem? Thank you.

Rene has a lot of great information and suggestions for blown red channel but you'll have to search for them or PM him or wait for him to show up.

[johnstoy]

Thanks KMB,

I'm looking forward to getting a chance to work with it...

When I once worked over a microscope, in microbiology, the Very Highest Of High Resolution was the rule of thumb for lens quality...

So I pixel peep often, and will be looking forward to the chance of working with color...

Your explanation is excellent...

John

[René Damkot]

First is really nice. All are a bit soft.

[kmb]

Thank you for that explination, and you are right. Many of the highlights are blown out on the red channel.

Do you or anyone else have any tips for preventing this or corrective PP procedures to reduce this problem? Thank you.

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post: of course, whether channel cliping is (in a given picture) something that's "bad" is subjective. I personally knew what to look for (or guessed that this had happened - I verified with eyedropper) and am a bit oversensitive to clipped channels.

As on how to prevent/circumvent it... I shoot raw only so my advice would be to shoot raw post exposure compensate in RAW converter. There is a feature in most of the raw converters which will show where and which channels have been clipped. In Adobe Camera RAW you hold down ctrl (or was it alt?) and drag the EC slider. I have limited knowledge of other techniques, since that's enough for me, but if you don't want to or cannot (because of lack of mobile storage space) shoot raw, here's something René once linked (never tried it personally):

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/restore-clipped.shtml

If you have a 30D or a 5D (or any camera with color histograms), channel clipping can be seen as a peak in the right side of color histogram. The trouble is that the camera won't indicate where on the picture space that clipping happens, so if there's a light source or well-iluminated smoke in the picture, the clipping might occur there, which (for me) is often a very minor thing (compared to the clipping in the face of the subject, for instance). So, when I use histograms to determine clipping, I first interpret the picture - is it possible that the channel clipping happens in an area that won't bother me? If it is, then the histograms cannot tell whether the picture is ruined or not. If it is headshot with black background for instance, the clipping definitely occurs on an area that matters.

Oh, and by the way, if you shoot JPG and the performers are illuminated with warm light (as is the case) try selecting a colder white balance. This will even out the red channel (which is most often the problem) in comparison to the other two channels.

And you can always braket your pictures (I personlly dislike braketing, as I try to take photos of unique moments, and shooting one situation three times for three different exposures won't do - its alomost equal to having a one second delay in the shutter if the last picture of the sequence is taken one second later).

In any case, you might want to take a few test shots (preferrably in real concert environment, the performers as subjects) as raw images and just try to slide the post EC slider so that the channels get cliped/unclipped so that you'll get an idea how clipped channels affect the image so that you can decide whether it's worth the trouble to spend extra effort to avoid clipped channels.

Sorry if there are errors above, I'm tired (and English isn't my mother thongue).

[René Damkot]

Hahaha, totally missed page 2...
On clipping of red channels:


On the 1D2 and red (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E1D2/E1D2A8.HTM)
Post with some general info (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2234353&postcount=6)
Thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=221099) about a 'difficult' image I shot.
Post with an edit on somebody elses image (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1841417&postcount=13)
The answer to the original question (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1724476&postcount=15) ;)

[René Damkot]

Great tip, thanks. I ususally keep it on the center point. I lock on then re-frame the shot. But when things are moving, it gets a little tough to do.

Use an off center focus point if you have one, or shoot wider and crop in photoshop....

[johnstoy]

Here is Rene's response Regarding the above addressed questions: per his PM just a few minute ago....
If we duplicate the posting, so be it...here goes: I'm cut and pasting it from the PM:

issues addressed: Click on each of the links for information addressed in the above posted issues and questions...

Link #1.
On the 1D2 and red
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E1D2/E1D2A8.HTM

Link #2. about a 'difficult' image I shot.
Post with an edit on somebody elses image
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1841417&postcount=13

Link #3..The answer to the original question
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1724476&postcount=15

Thanks Rene'
For this research and information...;) ;) :)

John

[René Damkot]

Hahaha, beat you to it ;)
Off to sleep now... All 5 hours of it :(

[johnstoy]

Hahaha, beat you to it ;)
Off to sleep now... All 5 hours of it :(

Isn't this great? Thanks to the internet...You rest up now, Rene'...

We'll all, give you a work out again in the near future...

John

[bmoguy]

Use an off center focus point if you have one, or shoot wider and crop in photoshop....

Thanks, I practiced doing this last night with the kids Christmas program. Worked out really well. Just need to practice switching back & forth between portrait & landscape.

[johnstoy]

Thanks, I practiced doing this last night with the kids Christmas program. Worked out really well. Just need to practice switching back & forth between portrait & landscape.


What are you up to, in Branson these days?

Taking any photos at the shows and theaters?

I was there for a few weeks...while my older brother worked a resort project there for a couple of years...

[Nick_b]

I am blown away by your eagerness to help out a new face guys!!! I really look forward to learning as much as I can so I can start contributing to this great community! I've got so much to learn and without your help I would be lost. Thank you, Rene, kmb, Dwight and John. your time spent is very much apreciated!