promoting services to bands - how to?

[philpereira]

I'm guessing this belongs here, but it could also belong in the business section, so mods feel free to move this to where it is appropriate.

I've tried promoting myself to local bands via myspace and generally got little to no response (this one band acted interested, but then started balking because of budget). I'm hoping to attempt using myspace as a promotional vehicle again, and I want to develop a promotion that will entice a band or bands to seek out my photography, but not at the risk of giving away the farm. Perhaps this could be a good brainstorming thread that everyone can use, so feel free to contribute any ideas.

When I first started, I attempted to reach local bands that had a lot of listens and a lot of friends, using the logic that they actually may have budgets and are more serious about promoting themselves than a teenage garage band that makes a page and throws up whatever poorly recorded demos they may have. I'm considering continuing with this precident, unless someone can convince me to reach out to bands while they're still newbies.

In terms of promoting, I was thinking of offering a free live photo session and a free promo shoot to whatever band contacts me first (or the first few bands, I haven't hashed that out). Would it be worth doing a lot of free stuff when I don't really have anything to prove to myself skill-wise (I do portraits and weddings and have my system down)? My concern with this strategy is that bands will take advantage of the offer, but won't come back to me in the future and won't take the initiative to recommend me to others. Perhaps by offering a free promo shoot when a band can get me, say 5 bookings, would be a way to keep them in the fold?

Anyway, I'm just rehashing some thoughts I've had in the past and presenting them for discussion. I hope this can generate a good chat with a solid exchange of ideas in terms of what may or may not work.

[Valerie S]

Hi,

Have you tried posting on Craig's List (http://kansascity.craigslist.org/)? Maybe in the "Musicians" section under "Community"?

[livewire-photography.com]

i gave up doing myspace for advertising, unless its for actual Venues, even then its pointless, with out the risk of sounding big headed i try aiming higher than local bands, but if you wanna shoot small bands thats cool, ask the venue if you can shoot there and then get an e-mail from there manager or what not, and give them small prints.
Word of mouth and just getting out there and doing it i have founs is better then myspace, i still have one,
i think everyone/mst will say no free stuff, including myself, as i found out with a magazine!
James.

[philpereira]

No, actually I haven't done craig's list in a long time, and never for bands, so I'll give that a go. But myspace seems like it would make sense because bands have fans via the friends feature, and fans may find my work and want me to do other photography for them. I'm basically trying to get known in the local market. I'll try venues, but I'd really like to get bands to do promotional shoots where we can get creative.

[livewire-photography.com]

no half the time bands dont even look who there adding or whos added them, go up to them on the night, there is nothing better than asking someone face to face its much more polite and profesional, or phone (but thats pr companys or e-mails)
as i said i got a my space and it really does get no business.
Sorry dude, but thats what i have found.
James...

[Steve Parr]

I've tried promoting myself to local bands via myspace and generally got little to no response (this one band acted interested, but then started balking because of budget). I'm hoping to attempt using myspace as a promotional vehicle again, and I want to develop a promotion that will entice a band or bands to seek out my photography, but not at the risk of giving away the farm. Perhaps this could be a good brainstorming thread that everyone can use, so feel free to contribute any ideas.

When I first started, I attempted to reach local bands that had a lot of listens and a lot of friends, using the logic that they actually may have budgets and are more serious about promoting themselves than a teenage garage band that makes a page and throws up whatever poorly recorded demos they may have. I'm considering continuing with this precident, unless someone can convince me to reach out to bands while they're still newbies.

In terms of promoting, I was thinking of offering a free live photo session and a free promo shoot to whatever band contacts me first (or the first few bands, I haven't hashed that out). Would it be worth doing a lot of free stuff when I don't really have anything to prove to myself skill-wise (I do portraits and weddings and have my system down)? My concern with this strategy is that bands will take advantage of the offer, but won't come back to me in the future and won't take the initiative to recommend me to others. Perhaps by offering a free promo shoot when a band can get me, say 5 bookings, would be a way to keep them in the fold?

Anyway, I'm just rehashing some thoughts I've had in the past and presenting them for discussion. I hope this can generate a good chat with a solid exchange of ideas in terms of what may or may not work.

I advertised on Craig’s List, and had a total of zero responses. MySpace hasn’t done much better. I still have both, primarily because they’re free, but I don’t hang my hat on the hopes of getting much business form them. I do have some shots on various MySpace pages but, while they’ve generated interest from the fans of the various performers, there’s been nothing in the way of residual business.

When I started out, I had two “guinea pig” bands. I didn’t know what the Hell I was doing, so I would shoot them for free in order to get more proficient at it. I still shoot them for nothing but, since they’ve been playing better clubs and venues, my association with them has gotten me in which, in turn, gets me in front of the “right” people at these venues.

When one of the “guinea pig” bands plays, they’re normally playing with a few other bands. I’ll put myself in front of the promoter and let him know who I am, and then send him a few shots. I’ll shoot whoever’s playing, and then get an e-mail address from them. I’ll then send them two or three teaser shots. This has resulted in a little bit of work after the fact.

Before getting into photography, I played in a band in San Diego for about nine years. One thing I know, all too well, is that the one thing a local band has little of is money to spend on a photographer. Far too many are willing to settle for substandard photos taken by the bass player’s drunk girlfriend if it means they can put their money into recording, t-shirts, stickers, and the like to sell at their gigs. It’s alarmingly easy to price yourself out of the reach of most “local” bands. When someone balks at the price you quote them, it’s probably not because they think it’s too expensive, but rather because they simply don’t have the money.

You say you’ve done weddings and portraits, but you haven’t mentioned whether or not you’ve actually shot any bands yet. I can assure you, shooting a band is a completely different endeavor. Most bands are going to want performance shots. You’re not going to be able to bring your studio lights with you. You get your camera, and that’s about it. You have to rely on the stage lighting which, sadly, is usually abysmal, at best.

As for other ideas on how to get your services known to musicians, go to music stores. Every local store around me has a bulletin board. Everything from recording services to roadie services to t-shirt printing are advertised on them. Why not advertise your photography? Do you have a website with band photos? If not, get one. Have a place to point people to your work. People will be reluctant to hire you if they don’t have, at least, an idea of what the results might be. While I do all kinds of photography, I’ve had business cards, postcards, calendar magnets, and the like made up specifically for my concert shooting. I got them through VistaPrint.com, and they’re amazingly inexpensive for the quality you get. I have them with me whenever I go out to a bar or venue (whether I’m shooting or not), and I have postcards strewn all over town.

It’s a tough gig, but it can be done. If I were to make one suggestion, though, to encompass everything, don’t expect to make a lot of money doing this. Some people do, most people don’t. If you’re doing it for the money, there are probably other types of photography which pay far better than this gig. For me, the money is actually secondary. I do it because, frankly, it’s fun as Hell…

[philpereira]

well, I really want to do it because it's fun. Any little money I make it just gravy. I've played guitar for a long time, and love music and have been wanting to try to photography bands, both live and in a creative setting. I shot a band once in college for the paper, and that's about it.

Anyway, I'm going to try the guinea pig band concept, have some fun with that, and see where it goes. I do need to develop a portfolio, and will have to give away work before I see any sort of financial return, but I'm more interested in getting out there and shooting.

[Steve Parr]

Anyway, I'm going to try the guinea pig band concept, have some fun with that, and see where it goes.

If you play guitar, you probably know somebody who's in a gigging band. I would approach them. It's a lot easier if you know someone in the band. For my "guinea pig" bands, one has a guy who used to be the soundman for my band, and the other has a guy I currently work with...

[Lefty Ray]

If you are serious, get a webpage. A myspace site tells me you cannot afford a webpage and therefore your services are not a serious alternative to what is out there.

Do not do FREE, this just messes it up for the rest of us, plus if you are good, then good has a value. If you are great, that has a better value. I have no problem walking away from FREE. I tell them up front I am expensive. You have to market yourself as a brand. Yea, I lose one here or there, but the bottom line is bands get what they pay for.

If you are willing to barter for booze, women, etc, just remember it don't pay the bills or subsidize better photo gear.

For a CD cover and package, I charge double of what my competitors charge, but my clients get their moneys worth. As of last week one of my clients had their CD nominated for a Grammy and another has a breakout song on Billboard.

[livewire-photography.com]

Good point, i know either someone in a local band or someone at the Venue, and yes as left ray says get a web page.

another quetion, (to anyone)
When you e-mail the management etc, a couple of teasers, do you put your watermark all over the photo? or just at the bottom or what not?
as you know local bands, they have little money, so they would probably keep the shot anyway. or do you just put one on and send it? at reduced size etc?
James...

[philpereira]

I have a website, but right now it's targeted for weddings and portraits, and have another domain I may use to develop music photography should I decide to get into it. I think there's a little misinterpretation in that I would only use a myspace page as my advertising device, and that's not what I was getting at. My point was using the search function on the myspace music site to find local bands, email them directly to solicit services, along with a website link (while it doesn't have the face to face value that's important, there's the quickness factor in getting your name out to bands instead of going from show to show). Then, if a working relationship develops with the band, they can promote your services on their myspace page and there's some free marketing. I'm probably thinking my idea has greater potential than it actually does, but I'm not being entirely haphazard in my thinking either.

[johnstoy]

Say philpereira,

You're not too far from Branson, MO...I went there back in the early 1990's and went to every theater, to talk about marketing...

By the way Philip...I went to college in upstate NY with a buddy, Ted Pereira back in 1969, we played soccer in the US nationals together down in Florida...Ted is originally from Queens, NY...I bet you don't know him or do you?

[johnstoy]

I have a website, but right now it's targeted for weddings and portraits, and have another domain I may use to develop music photography should I decide to get into it. I think there's a little misinterpretation in that I would only use a myspace page as my advertising device, and that's not what I was getting at. My point was using the search function on the myspace music site to find local bands, email them directly to solicit services, along with a website link (while it doesn't have the face to face value that's important, there's the quickness factor in getting your name out to bands instead of going from show to show). Then, if a working relationship develops with the band, they can promote your services on their myspace page and there's some free marketing. I'm probably thinking my idea has greater potential than it actually does, but I'm not being entirely haphazard in my thinking either.

Same as above philippereira, If I wasn't retired, this is basically what I would do too...You're definitely on the right track...It's a number's game the more the merrier...

[Nick_b]

I use Myspace to comunicate with bands. I like to chat a bit at shows too, but It's quite hard to hold a conversation while screeming over backround noise. I haven't sold any pictures yet. I'm still in the geting my name out there stage right now pluse I'm not comfortable selling a product I'm not completly happy with.

I've had a few offers on Myspace to shoot gigs but only "Hey, you want to shoot our gig? I'll put you on the guest list." Ya, thanks.... I wouldn't mind if I was a fan of the band but I'm not going to go though all that trouble for a band I'm not intrested in....

[Steve Parr]

I've had a few offers on Myspace to shoot gigs but only "Hey, you want to shoot our gig? I'll put you on the guest list." Ya, thanks.... I wouldn't mind if I was a fan of the band but I'm not going to go though all that trouble for a band I'm not intrested in....

Don't be so quick to discount a band for that reason, though.

One of the bands I shoot plays music that, frankly, I'd never go out and buy. But when I saw the band live, I was blown away, and found that I did really like the music.

That's one of the coolest aspects of this type of photography. It exposes you to music, bands, and people you may never have come into contact otherwise...

[Chad McCan]

KC is a tough place, I live there too. It isn't exactly a hotbed for anything. I am trying to get into the wedding business, but haven't found a way into that either. It's the chicken or the egg, you have to have a portfolio to get work, you have to get work to have a portfolio.

[philpereira]

Yeah, KC is a bit of a strange place, it's a big town but suprisingly small, and the market is probably a bit oversaturated when it comes to photographers, especially since every schmoe with a camera (myself included) wants to make some money. Being from the Boston area, it's definitely a lot smaller scale compared to what I'm used to. But there seem to be a fair number of bands out there and I'm sure if I play my cards correctly, I can develop working relationships with a couple of solid leads.

[philpereira]

Say philpereira,

You're not too far from Branson, MO...I went there back in the early 1990's and went to every theater, to talk about marketing...

By the way Philip...I went to college in upstate NY with a buddy, Ted Pereira back in 1969, we played soccer in the US nationals together down in Florida...Ted is originally from Queens, NY...I bet you don't know him or do you?

I've never had the pleasure of going to Branson, and doubt I ever will. I'm too east coast to be into that lol

No, I don't know Ted. Pereira is a portuguese name and pretty common, like smith or jones :) His parents or grandparents must have been from Portugal; my folks came to the states in 1972. Not surprising that he played soccer though, europeans love their football!

[Lefty Ray]

ditto on disliking a bands music. I prefer "Tejano" music, but my last CD cover to hit the streets was a "Norteno" music CD. The graphic guy did a kickass job and I now use it to show other "Tejano" bands what can be done when they spend more money that what they are used to.

http://www.leftyray.com/images/cd-cover-03.jpg

[Mike Philippens]

I'm trying to get my foot in the door in that world too. Just by chance I got connected to one band that was looking for promo photo's and I did that one for free. I hadn't done anything so I was looking for the experience and I also like doing it. There is a possibility that they're gonna use my pictures on their upcoming cd which is quite exciting for me. And a good way to show other bands what I can do, and that others trusted me too.
But the ball is rolling now and I hooked up with a concert venue (it is also a cultural center) that is offering various services to starting bands. They offer recording studios, workshops, coaching, rehersal studios etc. to starting bands. I contacted them and offered my services. So now we're going to do a try out soon to see how it works out. The manager says that lots of bands only think about the music, but he keeps insisting that presentation is also very important. So I don't have to do much convincving there. He's doing the sales pitch to the bands and we're basically offering 2 packages:

for the really low budget affairs we do a night in the building (3 stages with bars and studio spaces) were we can do several 30 minutes shoots. For this the bands pay a flat fee and they just get a few bandshots somewhere in the building (on stage or in a studio). This is low price, so the turnover needs to come from volume.

The other package is a 'press-kit pack'. Here we take a 4 hour block to take some shots of the band in a setting/location of their choice. We decided that 4 hours is minimal. It can happen that you're done in 2 hours, but usually it takes a bit longer to get what you want. We take the 4 hours plus 2 hours post processing and stuff as a starting point; that is what they get for a given amount of money. Every hour extra is charged for a set fee. We also throw in a few headshots which are always handy to have for bios.

While the bands don't have that much money, they need to realize that promotion costs money. The manager told me about a band that spend a couple of thousand euros on a photoshoot because they'll get promoted in the US soon and they wanted a good photographer that knows what kind of photo's 'work' in the US for their genre (and has a reputation there).
Another reason for not being too cheap is that your colleagues won't like it if there's someone working below the normal price. And when you're too cheap, the risk is that nobody will take you seriously. Just try to find the balance between what's acceptable for them, for you, and comparable with the going rates.

Especially when you're starting, you can forget about the more well known bands. They won't even talk to you because they're surrounded by publicity guys. And U2 already has a photographer. So stick with the starting bands/locals/small guys. One of them is going to get bigger and then you can go along (if you're smart enough) for the ride. And you need a portfolio.

[sspellman]

Philpereira-

Unfortunately there is a very limited market for paid music photography. There are hundreds of photographers in any major market that will shoot for free in an effort to build their portfolio. In my five years of experience shooting entertainment i have found that promoters, venues, magazines, record labels, and booking agencies are far better clients than the artists themselves. Also, unless you are willing to do most of your business in Boston, New Bedford does not seem like a large enough market to support any serious music photography business. If financial reward is critical to you, then I think you are better off investing your efforts in another direction.

Any band that only had a MySpace page and not a custom website is very unlikely to be a paying customer for any photography service.

Good Luck-
Scott

[bmoguy]

You're not too far from Branson, MO...I went there back in the early 1990's and went to every theater, to talk about marketing...

Definitely plenty of shows to shoot. They say there's over 100 shows in town. Most are closed now until March or April. But there'll be a few opening back up after Christmas. You kind of see the full spectrum with regards to established shows being able to afford to market professionally and start-ups using myspace for their web marketing.

[Mike Philippens]

Unfortunately there is a very limited market for paid music photography. There are hundreds of photographers in any major market that will shoot for free in an effort to build their portfolio.
True. But when you develop your own style, bands will understand that nothing's for free. Thing is that when you start with music photography, you need the small bands. What you have to try then is to get noticed with your photographs so that bands who are a bit higher up in the hierarchy will ask you.
This happens even in a small country as the Netherlands, where just a couple of bands can actually make a living out of their music. The US is a lot bigger. Obviously you have a lot more competition, but since the market is very small (US bands can serve the whole world) it is harder.

I think that most of the amateurs that shoot bands for free are not very comitted and do it just for fun. When they have no intention to do more with it, it's not very hard to compete with them. I do commit to my clients. One of the bands I work with even mentioned that: I'm the photographer that stays in contact and follow their career. In competition, you have to be a little better that the rest. Don't sell out to the competition: when they start with guys that shoot for free, let 'm go. They're only in for a freebee.

[philpereira]

Yeah, relationships are key to being successful. I know of some photogs like Ross Halfin (I think thats right) who worked closely with bands like Metallica through the years. If I do work with bands, I do want to work closely with them and if their careers progress continue working closely with them.

[Metalphotographer]

For getting gigs shooting local bands I have made a lot of contacts by putting up 16x20 flyers in several smaller club-type venues with tearoffs containing my contact information. Some venues might not allow this but if you establish a good relationship with the owners (comp them a few free 640x480 images for their web sites) it shouldn't be a problem. My experience has been that a lot of bands that are less well known and trying to get signed are willing to pay for high quality photos.

When shooting national acts that come through I always shoot the local openers, give them my card and e-mail them some thumbnails of the shots along with an offer to license the images for web use or otherwise. This often results in some income as well.

I still haven't figured out how to actually make a living shooting bands but I am able to supplement the income from my day job.

[blackshadow]

As far as getting noticed; I use my own website, myspace and network closely with most of the bands I shoot. For some I provide free low res images. For live stuff sometimes I get paid to shoot, other times not. More often now though I find I can usually sell something from the live shows after the event and also I am finding more paying clients contacting me.
For example a recording studio asked me to shoot their Christmas party last weekend - they didn't pay me but as a result it looks like I have at least three promo shoots from bands who played at the party or who attended.
I also find the switched on up and coming bands are often more likely to recognise the value of professional quality photography and are willing to pay for it - not megabucks but a reasonable fee. A lot of the more established bands already have good relationships with other photographers and you have to really impress them to get a break there. Also the more established bands generally have a good supply of photographs and have less need of them than emerging artists.

[narlus]

funny myspace moment tonight...

i just found out that Torche (http://www.myspace.com/torche) were using their profile pic from one i shot, and that they must have lifted from this thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=170546&highlight=torche

i sent them a polite email to their myspace page, we'll see how it goes!

[johnstoy]

funny myspace moment tonight...

i just found out that Torche (http://www.myspace.com/torche) were using their profile pic from one i shot, and that they must have lifted from this thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=170546&highlight=torche

i sent them a polite email to their myspace page, we'll see how it goes!

That's a real reality test... narlus...unbelievable...the nerve of them...you gotta keep us posted on this one...we all want to know exactly what their words are...cause you know if one does it, others probably have the same excuse...

You'll of course ask them for their photography account and free passes for you and friends with compensation for every show you shoot for them...

[blackshadow]

I'm guessing this belongs here, but it could also belong in the business section, so mods feel free to move this to where it is appropriate.

I've tried promoting myself to local bands via myspace and generally got little to no response (this one band acted interested, but then started balking because of budget). I'm hoping to attempt using myspace as a promotional vehicle again, and I want to develop a promotion that will entice a band or bands to seek out my photography, but not at the risk of giving away the farm. Perhaps this could be a good brainstorming thread that everyone can use, so feel free to contribute any ideas.

When I first started, I attempted to reach local bands that had a lot of listens and a lot of friends, using the logic that they actually may have budgets and are more serious about promoting themselves than a teenage garage band that makes a page and throws up whatever poorly recorded demos they may have. I'm considering continuing with this precident, unless someone can convince me to reach out to bands while they're still newbies.

In terms of promoting, I was thinking of offering a free live photo session and a free promo shoot to whatever band contacts me first (or the first few bands, I haven't hashed that out). Would it be worth doing a lot of free stuff when I don't really have anything to prove to myself skill-wise (I do portraits and weddings and have my system down)? My concern with this strategy is that bands will take advantage of the offer, but won't come back to me in the future and won't take the initiative to recommend me to others. Perhaps by offering a free promo shoot when a band can get me, say 5 bookings, would be a way to keep them in the fold?

Anyway, I'm just rehashing some thoughts I've had in the past and presenting them for discussion. I hope this can generate a good chat with a solid exchange of ideas in terms of what may or may not work.

Do you have a portfolio of band shots? Shooting bands live is a specialised skill set, same as doing weddings, glamour, portraits all have their own special skills and the only way to hone those skills is to get out and shoot.

A decent portfolio of shots will make it much easier to promote yourself to potential clients. To build the portfolio it would be worth your while getting out to a few local shows and shoot them without expecting anything in return for starters. Also it becomes a way to network among the music community which I have found to be something invaluable.

For instance when I moved from Sydney and started spending a lot of time in Melbourne from day 1 when I walked into different venues I was surprised by the number of people who knew me from when I had shot them in Sydney, they made me welcome and introduced me to many more people.

I do use myspace as a marketing tool - after I have shot a show I will post a teaser photo in the comments section on a band's myspace combined with a bulletin and a copy of the bulletin in my myspace blog. All of these are then linked to my webpage where the full set of images is available for display (but not download).

But by far the best marketing tool is to network and become known among your potential client base.

[blackshadow]

funny myspace moment tonight...

i just found out that Torche (http://www.myspace.com/torche) were using their profile pic from one i shot, and that they must have lifted from this thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=170546&highlight=torche

i sent them a polite email to their myspace page, we'll see how it goes!

I'll be watching this with interest... I hope you mentioned the copyright side of things, courtesy, the fact that they are using your image to market themselves and that you have to make a living from your photography as well as pay for your gear, insurance etc.

Usually when bands have heard that explained to them they start to cotton on that it is only fair to pay you for your work. It doesn't hurt to mention they pay for everything else such as their instruments, rehearsal studios, recording etc - why should they treat you any differently.

[just connor]

i notice they now have a link with photo credit on that picture ;)

[johnstoy]

Yeah narlus,
You're on their front page...So are you saying they copied the image from your Thread post here back in May of 2006?

[narlus]

well the gist of the reply i got was that he just recently found that image after doing a search, but was glad i got in touch because he didn't know who to credit it to. i'm guessing that they (or someone else) got that image via this forum, because i never posted it anywhere else.

we'll see how it goes.

[livewire-photography.com]

Ha something like this just happened to me as well lol, it was a band that done a DJ set for one of the Club nights i do, and although the person who runs the night pays me for the photos, they didn't and i found out today that its being used, but this time i don't mind, as there are lots of nice comments about the image, and they now got in touch and said they wanna use my image on there DJ'ing tour poster :) ,so its worked out ok really, only i gave it them for free, because 1 its a major band, 2 its not the best of photos, and 3 as its not the best of photos, i just obv asked for photo credit, and for them to keep my details. sorry anyone who always say that you should always charge, and i agree you should, but the way i see it, is iv just make a very good contact.
So im quite pleased, seens as i got the text when i was at work and was having a bad day lol.

[johnstoy]

Hey James,

I read your post and there we go again...rationalizing all those nice deeds and all... I'm like that too, sometimes...

Many years ago, a saying used to go around, it went something like this..."nice guys finish last"...to this day ,I hate that saying...and yet there a people out there who live by that motto...

My father once told me, several decades ago that I should realize that, "not everybody loves you"...so what am i getting at? well I don't quite know actually...Other than we are supposed to make some money doing this photography stuff, and if we don't ask, we don't get...

I'm setting my goal on acquiring a 580EX flash, another wide angle L lens, some "mean" tripod and mono pods, with those fancy swivel heards...a ball bearing rotating custom Flash bracket...you get the idea...

We gotta get hungry enough to ask for compensation...Let's be creative and at least get some referrals, return business, complimentary tickets, recurring exposure and recognition. If cash isn't the topic of conversation than maybe "bartering (exchanging services)" for the services will work...

If I'm being too philosophical, just let me know...

In the mean time, you did well by coming out of this deal with something in return...Now, the idea is to do this every time, with at least as much for compensation, if not more, a lot more...

[livewire-photography.com]

hia John,
i agree, but i really dont wanna run before i can walk, although i do through my self in the deep end all the time (its the best way) and now they got my details i have made it known to them that as i said i want a credit, t least, and maybe some tickets and a pass or something like that. i hate doing it for free, but i personally feel i got the best out of this situation, at the end of the day if they do give me a pass, and i get some good shots, then the managment, will then get on to someone else etc etc, does that make sence?

Cheers.

[johnstoy]

hia John,
i agree, but i really dont wanna run before i can walk, although i do through my self in the deep end all the time (its the best way) and now they got my details i have made it known to them that as i said i want a credit, t least, and maybe some tickets and a pass or something like that. i hate doing it for free, but i personally feel i got the best out of this situation, at the end of the day if they do give me a pass, and i get some good shots, then the managment, will then get on to someone else etc etc, does that make sence?

Cheers.

It makes plenty of sense James...the relationship with these bands has to be constructive, and cumulatively progressive, in the bartering department...Till you reach a confident point of fair compensation, it will have to continue to be a growing relationship...

However, as you say, a relationship with the band and associated business contacts, has to be conducted in a tactful manner... You'll know your parameters, after you find out how they operate, by talking with them...Sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask the person you are talking to, whom he would also recommend that you talk to, regarding your services as well...It may mean waiting for the appropriate time to ask, but don't wait too long...(in other words, don't be shy about it.)They can only say no...

And If they say no...than turn that "no" around and say..."Well, if you're not interested at this time, let me get back to you at a more convenient time for you...How would next week be?" Should I Email you? or would you prefer that I call or just stop in.
(Try to meet "them" in person whenever possible...)

[René Damkot]

i sent them a polite email to their myspace page, we'll see how it goes!

well the gist of the reply i got was that he just recently found that image after doing a search, but was glad i got in touch because he didn't know who to credit it to. i'm guessing that they (or someone else) got that image via this forum, because i never posted it anywhere else.

we'll see how it goes.

That's about the only reason I want to join Myspace (and related sites)... So I can contact members there.
I once got an e-mail from a venue in Rotterdam who wanted to use an image I made of a band, backstage in Atak, for a flyer.
When I asked where they found the image, and how they found me, the answers were: "On the bands myspace" and "Google" respectively. The band ripped the picture, but at least left in my name. Have a look. It's still there (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=6247737&imageID=147310239). Still have to contact the band. Then again there are a number of other bands and a magazine I need to contact... Probabely this weekend....

One of the reasons *nothing* goes out anymore without IPTC and watermark. (not that it helps much...)

[gcobb]

The way I'm making my presence known is by showing up at the gigs, handing out cards and talking to the bands. I also use Myspace in a way where my presence is probably known more than in person. An attorney friend of mine said once "the telephone is for old ladies' gossip." That applies for the net too. If you want to make an impression, show up and talk to someone in person.

I've landed a few gigs, a few shoots and something in July for 3 days just by association. I think if you attack this the right way you will be noticed.

[narlus]

got the answer re: Torche and the myspace photo...i was willing to offer use of the credited photo in exchange for a photo pass for their upcoming show w/ Isis, but they said they've got a lot of friends in the boston area already promised list spots, so they took the photo down.

[blackshadow]

!@#$ing tightarses!

[johnstoy]

got the answer re: Torche and the myspace photo...i was willing to offer use of the credited photo in exchange for a photo pass for their upcoming show w/ Isis, but they said they've got a lot of friends in the boston area already promised list spots, so they took the photo down.


Their's is one lame excuse...they tried the old sales "take away" trick...hoping you would just give it to them...they figure their many friends have cameras and will produce, similar results to your's...How clueless they must be...

You did right to stand your guns...and not bend for their lame assed excuses...

[gcobb]

Yeah, just let them be babies about it.

[Zeineth]

John made a good point about bartering and other ways of compensation other then money for up and comers. I know that is what my deal is at this point in time. My gig with the radio station is an exchange deal, I take the pictures and they give me things. LIke tickets to big shows and NHL hockey games. I have been in the last 4 months to 3 Ottawa Senators games all in Privet boxes with booze and food, as well as tickets to G&R, Chilli Pepers, Evenesance with Stone Sour and all but Evenesance included transportation. Not to mention some private parties locally at the clubs. And on occasion I get to go hang out with the jocks and get on air from time to time. Thats just fun. They are doing a Band Slam completion (Battle of the Bands) and I have donated myself to photograph the winning band live in concert as well as do band bio/portfolio pictures. For which I get my business name mention on the radio a couple time a day until midle of February as well as credit for the pictures when used, I am hoping to do the CD cover/insert as that is part of the winners package to do a 4 song CD. So bartering has it's place.

[blackshadow]

I see Lamb of God are using one of metalphotographer's photos as their main myspace shot - I hope you got better treatment from them than narlus did from Torche (they do have a credit up I saw).

[narlus]

well, i ended up using another avenue (which was primarily my 1st one; the Torche angle i just stumbled upon when i found them using that pic) to get a photo pass to the show; however it's the 2nd Isis show, and not the one w/ Torche on the bill. also, i'm not on the list, but will get a photo pass, allowing access to the side stage, which is really what i wanted all along.

you know, it's stuff like this which really illustrates just how unlucrative this whole gig is (at my level, anyway), when i can't even get a $15 comp for a show, where i bring roughly $2K of gear in, shoot, and then spend an hour or two of my time to do post-processing on a PC i spent another 2.5K on.

[johnstoy]

well, i ended up using another avenue (which was primarily my 1st one; the Torche angle i just stumbled upon when i found them using that pic) to get a photo pass to the show; however it's the 2nd Isis show, and not the one w/ Torche on the bill. also, i'm not on the list, but will get a photo pass, allowing access to the side stage, which is really what i wanted all along.

you know, it's stuff like this which really illustrates just how unlucrative this whole gig is (at my level, anyway), when i can't even get a $15 comp for a show, where i bring roughly $2K of gear in, shoot, and then spend an hour or two of my time to do post-processing on a PC i spent another 2.5K on.

Every so often, I like to brainstorm ideas that I will later consider as potential solutions to a problem like this...

I just write everything down that comes to my head...Keep writing as much as possible on a long tablet...after a few pages, it's OK to take a break and then carry the list around and keep adding to it....

Identify the "problem" issue to your friends, and associates and add those thoughts and ideas onto the paper tablet listings.

After a few days, I sit down, and prioritize from the list...categorizing the potential solutions to the problem, in order of realization and probability, of being applied as a solution to the problem...

(I use notations like; roman numerals, Caps, Small letters, numbers, decimal points, and highlighters of different color... all to help sort the lists.)

Once a prioritized outline is made...It's time to decide what to do and when to start implementing the solution ideas...

Sometimes this helps resolve the issue at hand...

Do you have enough venues in your area?
Do you have a database of all venues...all entertainers...all contacts related to your business? Do you have several pre-written letters of communication ready for mailing promptly when needed? Keep adding to this list and soon you might see solutions jumping right out from the pages at you.

Wait, let me guess...I know the answer to our problem...and that is:

If I only lived in Las Vegas, or
If I only lived in Manhattan
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[Metalphotographer]

I see Lamb of God are using one of metalphotographer's photos as their main myspace shot - I hope you got better treatment from them than narlus did from Torche (they do have a credit up I saw).

Hahah, yes I did. I mailed their PR person some thumbnails after I shot the Unholy Alliance Tour in Seattle. Randy really dug that sillouhette photo and he personally paid (via cash through the USPS, sticking to his undergroung roots!) for a 640x480 version for web use, it also replaced the studio shot on their bio of the official site. He also mailed me a copy of the new album signed by the whole band once it was released and that wasn't even a part of the deal.

I always send thumbnails to bands after I shoot a gig, not only do I get deals here and again it helps in establishing more connections with bands, labels and publicists.

[CanonXTuser]

Hahah, yes I did. I mailed their PR person some thumbnails after I shot the Unholy Alliance Tour in Seattle. Randy really dug that sillouhette photo and he personally paid (via cash through the USPS, sticking to his undergroung roots!) for a 640x480 version for web use, it also replaced the studio shot on their bio of the official site. He also mailed me a copy of the new album signed by the whole band once it was released and that wasn't even a part of the deal.

I always send thumbnails to bands after I shoot a gig, not only do I get deals here and again it helps in establishing more connections with bands, labels and publicists.


great job Chris. do you actually send to the band or do you send to their manager or other agents?

moreover, do you actually pitch for them to buy pics or simply send without any prompting and wait to see if they will raise the issue themselves?

p.s. sorry if you already mentioned. joining thread late.

[Metalphotographer]

great job Chris. do you actually send to the band or do you send to their manager or other agents?

moreover, do you actually pitch for them to buy pics or simply send without any prompting and wait to see if they will raise the issue themselves?

p.s. sorry if you already mentioned. joining thread late.

I seem to get the best results if I can contact the band members directly. If I can't find or dont have contact info I hit up the band (or label) publicists and ask them to forward them the info. Sometimes they reply sometimes they don't. The majority of the time they do reply they say they like the photos but it isn't in their budget.

Upon initial contact I say something like "I thought you would like to check out these photos I took of you on X date at X venue in X town. If you would be interested in using any for web or other purposes please contact me for usage rates."

I also make it a point to give band members/tour managers my card when I see them at shows. At my "home venue" where I have known the owner for years (long before he owned the club) I have all access all the time so it's easy to find them. In the metal world most bands are very friendly and mingle with the fans before and after their sets, it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time at other venues. Those "right places" and "right times" will remain my secrets :)

When bands come back I generally give (that's right, for free) them a watermarked 4x6 print or two from Costco with my full contact info stamped on the back from their last show, I think it helps people to remember me.

[blackshadow]

Well done Chris.

I usually send proof copies to band members/management/publicist of shots I have taken of the band - which often results in sales or commissioning shoots. Sometimes managers/publicists are a bit slack about passing them on to the artists (as I found out last night when talking to a manager and artist - the result being the manager getting a bit of a tongue lashing from the artist and strict instructions to pass on the proofs!

[René Damkot]

I always send thumbnails to bands after I shoot a gig, not only do I get deals here and again it helps in establishing more connections with bands, labels and publicists.

Same here.

Sometimes they reply sometimes they don't. The majority of the time they do reply they say they like the photos but it isn't in their budget.

Same here, unfortunately ;)

Upon initial contact I say something like "I thought you would like to check out these photos I took of you on X date at X venue in X town. If you would be interested in using any for web or other purposes please contact me for usage rates."

When bands come back I generally give (that's right, for free) them a watermarked 4x6 print or two from Costco with my full contact info stamped on the back from their last show, I think it helps people to remember me.

"please contact me for usage rates."

I'll have to remember that line.. Nice.
That last one is also an idea...

I mostly put the images online (watermarked), and send a link to the band.
I state something like "Copyright of the images stays with me, so if you want to use any, please contact me first."

Like the 'usage rates' line though... I'll put that in next time I think ;)