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pieq314
27th of December 2006 (Wed), 10:24
Canon introduces a new version for 10D and 300D series every 18 months or so. Do you know how frequent Canon will upgrade the 5D series? 18 months? If so, We should see 5D Mk II in less than 6 months.

radiohead
27th of December 2006 (Wed), 15:28
God, not another one...

inthedeck
27th of December 2006 (Wed), 15:35
Wait till Canon's press release, which happens in early 2007. They will have a show, in the USA, and that's when they will 'release' their info. As of now, no news, nor does anyone care anymore...hehe.

I am enjoying my 5D...whether a new one is released or not.

DrPablo
27th of December 2006 (Wed), 18:19
Do you know how frequent Canon will upgrade the 5D series? 18 months?

Canon has never upgraded the 5D series before, being the first in its series. Upgrades are based on market factors, not the revolutions of the earth around the sun, so I don't think Canon's upgrade cycle for its Rebel series has anything at all to do with the 5D. What makes you so sure the 5D will be upgraded at all? There are two market forces that might get Canon to upgrade this camera -- 1) competition from another manufacturer, and 2) sufficient consumer demand for the 5D. Number 1 doesn't exist, and number 2 probably doesn't exist. If Canon upgrades the 5D, whether in spring '07 or spring '08, I wouldn't expect this upgrade to be head and shoulders different -- except that the price will be back at $3200.

Sprout Crumble
29th of December 2006 (Fri), 21:34
Price will remain lower and the camera will get a feature hike but not a changed sensor.
It doesn't need more resolution but it'll need features when a well-specced 40D hits the market at under half the price and with a better feature-set.
Expect a 5Dn at best.

joegolf68
29th of December 2006 (Fri), 21:37
As of now, no news, nor does anyone care anymore...hehe.


Obviously the OP does care, as do I, and many others. :rolleyes:

gdl357
1st of January 2007 (Mon), 13:00
Obviously the OP does care, as do I, and many others. :rolleyes:

Speak for yourself.

Why doesn't anyone care no more? Just beacuse you guys all have digital SLR cameras, doesn't mean the rest of the world/people out the have a Digital SLR. Many are still using film.

Canon better wake up soon because they will be in for a surprise if they don't form Nikon. You can only lay back a few quarters, then the sales/money drops on the competitor's side and makes them wind up again creating new models to rival he competiton. Canon got luck last year, wonder what will happen this year. Nikon will not give up that easy.

I need to buy a NEW model FF DSLR like a 5D, and there is no way I will be spending 2500 on a 1.5yo camera. If Canon won't pull one out early this year, I will surely sell all my Canon setup to move on to the one that does.

Thx

Broncobear
1st of January 2007 (Mon), 16:01
I wouldn't expect a 5d upgrade in 2007, maybe the first in 2008. just my own honest opinion.

CoolToolGuy
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 01:06
Speak for yourself.

Why doesn't anyone care no more? Just beacuse you guys all have digital SLR cameras, doesn't mean the rest of the world/people out the have a Digital SLR. Many are still using film.

Canon better wake up soon because they will be in for a surprise if they don't form Nikon. You can only lay back a few quarters, then the sales/money drops on the competitor's side and makes them wind up again creating new models to rival he competiton. Canon got luck last year, wonder what will happen this year. Nikon will not give up that easy.

I need to buy a NEW model FF DSLR like a 5D, and there is no way I will be spending 2500 on a 1.5yo camera. If Canon won't pull one out early this year, I will surely sell all my Canon setup to move on to the one that does.

Thx

Just curious - if you bail on Canon, just exactly whose Full Frame DSLR are you going to buy? :rolleyes:

Have Fun,

lostdoggy
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 01:36
Just curious - if you bail on Canon, just exactly whose Full Frame DSLR are you going to buy? :rolleyes:

Have Fun,

Well there is always Medium format if he is willing to put down $30,000!!!

gdl357
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 01:39
Sony already has ff if I am not mistaken.

Nikon will be my next. Do you think Canon is the only one that can make them? Like I said, Canon better wake up and stop making cheesy XTi with 25k rated shutters.

Permagrin
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 01:42
Only canon has ff cameras. 2 models. No one else, yet. ;)

lostdoggy
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 01:53
Speak for yourself.

Why doesn't anyone care no more? Just beacuse you guys all have digital SLR cameras, doesn't mean the rest of the world/people out the have a Digital SLR. Many are still using film.

Canon better wake up soon because they will be in for a surprise if they don't form Nikon. You can only lay back a few quarters, then the sales/money drops on the competitor's side and makes them wind up again creating new models to rival he competiton. Canon got luck last year, wonder what will happen this year. Nikon will not give up that easy.

I need to buy a NEW model FF DSLR like a 5D, and there is no way I will be spending 2500 on a 1.5yo camera. If Canon won't pull one out early this year, I will surely sell all my Canon setup to move on to the one that does.

Thx

FYI, Nikon is still playing catchup w/ crop sensors and they don't have a FF body yet to offer. Canon has 2 and Nikon has 0. As for body replacement it took them over 3yrs to go from D100 to D200.

lostdoggy
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 01:55
Sony already has ff if I am not mistaken.

Nikon will be my next. Do you think Canon is the only one that can make them? Like I said, Canon better wake up and stop making cheesy XTi with 25k rated shutters.

Please enlighten us on the Sony FF body!!! Canon has 2 available now!!!

joegolf68
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 03:57
Speak for yourself.

Why doesn't anyone care no more?
Thx

I DID, do you know how to read? :rolleyes: Obviously, you write as if English is a major challenge!

Wow, all kinds I guess. You said no one cares, I said the OP did and I do. You obviously need to have a look at the chip on that shoulder of yours. When you say no one cares, and I point out people who do, wtf? And to come onto a Canon Forum and flame on about Nikon, you are just looking for a fight. Get your head together, or have it checked out.

ryleung
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 04:20
Huh? Doesn't Kodak or Fuji has some reworked / rebadged Nikon bodies that supports FF?

-Rick

Rob612
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 04:47
AFAIK, Nikon claims that they are not interested in FF at all... but I suppose that they can change their line of business.

dufferin
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 07:16
I tried to be in touch with Nikon Pro Service regarding FF, as I carry Nikon for 15 years, but I don't like the crop format, cause I need wide angle, and I need to see what I'm looking at, and I don't need high fps, I nerver used it that much, even when I did Formula 1, and championship rally, and they just tried to convince me to go with they actual crop model.
Think they don't get my needs, so I will change for canon, I could have wait for a product from them, but needed confirmation.
That will cost me a bit to change the gear... but that cost me more (time, result) with nikon.

CoolToolGuy
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 10:41
Huh? Doesn't Kodak or Fuji has some reworked / rebadged Nikon bodies that supports FF?

-Rick

Kodak had the DCS SLR/C (Canon mount) and DCS SLR/N (Nikon mount) a couple years ago, but both of them have been discontinued - they were not very popular.

All the Fuji DSLRs that I could find have an APS-sized sensor with a 1.5x crop factor.

Sony has a grand total of one DSLR model, and that is a cropped sensor.

Have Fun,

gdl357
2nd of January 2007 (Tue), 16:39
BAH!!!

LOL

CRE@TE
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 13:42
I can see a replacement for the 30D and 5D coming. Late is 2006 Canon had a rebate on these 2 models. That event usually indicates something happening. I checked the prices for these two models today. Both these cameras has dropped in price here in Canada.

Steve Beck
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 15:01
The typical person saying there is no way i will spend $2500 in a 1.5 year old body makes me think of such a perosn that upgrades bodies just because there is a new body out. I think if a lot of people would take the time and truley learn the features of the body they have they will "need" to upgrade as often as they think.

But then again this whole speculation of what is coming is just silly and to argue and get rude about it is even more silly.

pieq314
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 16:54
The typical person saying there is no way i will spend $2500 in a 1.5 year old body makes me think of such a perosn that upgrades bodies just because there is a new body out.
I had trouble understanding that post as well. He claims he does not care about an update to the 5D, but then complains that the 1.5 year-old body being too old.

I would like to see a new 5D with with lower noise per pixel. According to dpreview.com (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/page20.asp), 5D has similar noise as 30D per pixel, but 30D has 60% more pixels per mm^2, so 30D sensor doing better per mm^2. 400D seems made some additional progress. So I would like a new 5D using the newer sensor technology (not necessarily increasing the resolution).

gdl357
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 17:56
I had trouble understanding that post as well. He claims he does not care about an update to the 5D, but then complains that the 1.5 year-old body being too old.

I would like to see a new 5D with with lower noise per pixel. According to dpreview.com (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30d/page20.asp), 5D has similar noise as 30D per pixel, but 30D has 60% more pixels per mm^2, so 30D sensor doing better per mm^2. 400D seems made some additional progress. So I would like a new 5D using the newer sensor technology (not necessarily increasing the resolution).


I need to buy a NEW model FF DSLR like a 5D, and there is no way I will be spending 2500 on a 1.5yo camera. If Canon won't pull one out early this year, I will surely sell all my Canon setup to move on to the one that does.



NO way will I caugh up 2.5k on an old camera. I rather put it on the new 40d and sell it 6 months down the line when a 5D replacement comes out if they are not released at the same time.

whats soooo hard to understand about that?:rolleyes:

And yes, I like to put a large sum like that on a NEWLY released model. This camera brings me no cash as I am not taking pictures for a living. Buying a new model gives me the most for my money, as I can turn around and sell it with a higher value 18 months down the line when I would want a new one. If I buy the 5d now, and sell it 18months down the line, it will be 36 month old and will be worth $500.00 at most.

I rather wait a few months and invest in a new unit. Money management 101.

I want FF and I will not settle for anything less.

EYE KNO
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 20:21
Sony already has ff if I am not mistaken.
Nikon will be my next. Do you think Canon is the only one that can make them? Like I said, Canon better wake up and stop making cheesy XTi with 25k rated shutters.

No disrespect but canon knows what they’re doing. There are more Xti buyers then 5D buyers. Yes its more expensive but not all consumers have 5D abilities. Xti is one of the best selling cameras today

lostdoggy
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 21:30
Sony already has ff if I am not mistaken.
Nikon will be my next. Do you think Canon is the only one that can make them? Like I said, Canon better wake up and stop making cheesy XTi with 25k rated shutters.

No disrespect but canon knows what they’re doing. There are more Xti buyers then 5D buyers. Yes its more expensive but not all consumers have 5D abilities. Xti is one of the best selling cameras today

Again please enlighten us with your knowledge of a Sony FF sensor DSLR??? In camera image stabilizer don't work well w/ FF sensors and 35mm SLR lenses.

stupot
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 21:36
Again please enlighten us with your knowledge of a Sony FF sensor DSLR??? In camera image stabilizer don't work well w/ FF sensors and 35mm SLR lenses.

he's quoting:)

lostdoggy
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 22:44
he's quoting:)

Oh me bad!!!

Just most poster just click the quote button!!!

pieq314
3rd of January 2007 (Wed), 23:38
NO way will I caugh up 2.5k on an old camera. I rather put it on the new 40d and sell it 6 months down the line when a 5D replacement comes out if they are not released at the same time.

whats soooo hard to understand about that?:rolleyes:

And yes, I like to put a large sum like that on a NEWLY released model. This camera brings me no cash as I am not taking pictures for a living. Buying a new model gives me the most for my money, as I can turn around and sell it with a higher value 18 months down the line when I would want a new one. If I buy the 5d now, and sell it 18months down the line, it will be 36 month old and will be worth $500.00 at most.

I rather wait a few months and invest in a new unit. Money management 101.

I want FF and I will not settle for anything less.
I think I understand you now. You do like to see an update on the 5D. But for now, I do not expect its price to drop much. But in 1.5 years, its (or its successor's) price should drop below $2000 level in my opinion (it's almost at $2k now with double rebate).

Monito
7th of January 2007 (Sun), 07:14
Sony is not selling a full-frame camera. They do supply Nikon's sensors, making business planning a headache for both companies regarding full-frame.

Nikon will continue to say that there is no need for full-frame and it is a waste, right up to the point when they announce a FF camera, at which time the party line will become that now it is perfected and it is the wave of the future.

Canon's product cycle has been 18 months, but the 1DsII is already 28 months old. Product cycles are lengthening, now that the DSLR market is maturing and approaching saturation (got a year or two to saturation yet). A 5D replacement is not guaranteed and if one appears, it may be a tweak like the 20D to 30D tweak. Don't expect a cheaper new model either, though one wouldn't surprise me.

lostdoggy
7th of January 2007 (Sun), 13:55
Sony is not selling a full-frame camera. They do supply Nikon's sensors, making business planning a headache for both companies regarding full-frame.

Nikon will continue to say that there is no need for full-frame and it is a waste, right up to the point when they announce a FF camera, at which time the party line will become that now it is perfected and it is the wave of the future.

Canon's product cycle has been 18 months, but the 1DsII is already 28 months old. Product cycles are lengthening, now that the DSLR market is maturing and approaching saturation (got a year or two to saturation yet). A 5D replacement is not guaranteed and if one appears, it may be a tweak like the 20D to 30D tweak. Don't expect a cheaper new model either, though one wouldn't surprise me.

This sounds like the patent clerk that decided to close the patent offie because he believed that all that can be invented have been invented and no new patent is necessary.

ScottE
7th of January 2007 (Sun), 23:42
If the Canon 30D starts losing market share to the Nikon 80D and 200D you can be certain Canon is not going to wait 18 months to replace it. The engineers are already working on the next generation of camera be the time the current generation goes into production. If the marketing people need something to retain sales, they will get it. Just don't buy one that was produced in the first couple of months if it get marketed too quickly.

gdl357
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 00:25
Just a quick note to the chicken head that says I need my head examined.

If FF was not in the immediate future why would other companies besides Canon start to produce cameras with them? Yup guess Canon has a small competitor now thats sturring sh-t up.

Well would you look at that. Olympus has only 3 Pro cameras and they all have FF sensors.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/e1/feat_quality.asp

Nikon will be next, you will see so start crossing your fingers for your sake...

Thx for the great compliment joego, shows your a real pro (at flaming, not photography) with the great wording you choose.

roli_bark
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 03:28
Just a quick note to the chicken head that says I need my head examined.

If FF was not in the immediate future why would other companies besides Canon start to produce cameras with them? Yup guess Canon has a small competitor now thats sturring sh-t up.

Well would you look at that. Olympus has only 3 Pro cameras and they all have FF sensors.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/e1/feat_quality.asp

Nikon will be next, you will see so start crossing your fingers for your sake...

Thx for the great compliment joego, shows your a real pro (at flaming, not photography) with the great wording you choose.

Excuse me ???
Where do you see in that link of yours "FF sensors" ?

As far as I understand - these are Olympus "FFT-CCD" sensors (Full-frame Transfer), not FF (Full Frame size - 36x24 mm) sensors.

lostdoggy
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 03:41
Just a quick note to the chicken head that says I need my head examined.

If FF was not in the immediate future why would other companies besides Canon start to produce cameras with them? Yup guess Canon has a small competitor now thats sturring sh-t up.

Well would you look at that. Olympus has only 3 Pro cameras and they all have FF sensors.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/e1/feat_quality.asp

Nikon will be next, you will see so start crossing your fingers for your sake...

Thx for the great compliment joego, shows your a real pro (at flaming, not photography) with the great wording you choose.

At present there are no FF sensor camera w/ dust removal. BTW OLY I believe promotes the 4:3 which doesn't fit into 2:3 of 35mm film aspect ratio. As Roli said ou're mistaking FFT for FF.

roli_bark
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 04:00
At present there are no FF sensor camera w/ dust removal.


At present there are no true FF sensor camera's (w. dust removal or not) besides Canon 1DsMrk-II and Canon 5D.

BTBeilke
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 09:44
NO way will I caugh up 2.5k on an old camera. I rather put it on the new 40d and sell it 6 months down the line when a 5D replacement comes out if they are not released at the same time.

I rather wait a few months and invest in a new unit. Money management 101.

FWIW, "Money Management 101" would tell you never to buy any product right after its release. The sale price of new products to market are set to take advantage of early adapters who are willing to pay inflated prices in order to have the latest and greatest. Once the early adapter surge has waned, the prices will be dropped in order to attract the next wave of buyers. And so on, and so on. Companies spend a lot of money to determine the "willingness to pay" values for various groups of consumers.

From a purely money point of view, now would be a great time to buy a 5D. They've never been cheaper and any impending updates will not affect the performance of the current 5D in any way. And, IMO, you are delusional if you think a well-kept 5D is going to sell for $500 in the next year and a half. Original DRebels are still being sold for $300-$400 and they've been updated twice.

CoolToolGuy
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 11:02
GDL357,

As others have mentioned, Olympus uses the 4/3 sensor size, which results in a 2x crop factor.

From the same Web site you pointed to:

http://www.olympusamerica.com/e1/sys_lens_300mm.asp

You will note that they list the "35mm equivalent" length, which usually implies a crop factor of some sort. ;)

Have Fun,

P.S. I'm not suggesting you have your whole head examined, but maybe you're due, at least, for the eyes. :lol: :lol: :lol:

sapearl
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 11:15
Actually, with all the rebates and promo specials you could have recently purchased a 5D body for nicely under $2K. Why would you take such a large and inconvenient loss to jump from a platform that you've been happy with?

I was so happy with my first 5D that I just purchased a second body for my wedding backup; Dell had a heckuva' sale that I couldn't pass up :D .

The fact that the camera is 1.5 years old does not mean that it functions any less than it did when it first came out. The 5D with L glass outperforms many MF film cameras and gives me nearly the quality of my old Hasselblad gear.

..........I need to buy a NEW model FF DSLR like a 5D, and there is no way I will be spending 2500 on a 1.5yo camera. If Canon won't pull one out early this year, I will surely sell all my Canon setup to move on to the one that does.

Thx

sapearl
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 11:29
Couldn't agree more, unless there was a business case that FORCED you to make such a purchase (ie - busted camera, big $$$ job requires item, EXTREMELY old equipment...) I waited a full year before purchasing my 5D, which saved me $400 off sticker.

The second body I just purchased was $1511 off once you factor in the rebates. Agreed, now is a GREAT time to purchase a 5D. ;)

FWIW, "Money Management 101" would tell you never to buy any product right after its release. The sale price of new products to market are set to take advantage of early adapters who are willing to pay inflated prices in order to have the latest and greatest. Once the early adapter surge has waned, the prices will be dropped in order to attract the next wave of buyers. .......

From a purely money point of view, now would be a great time to buy a 5D. They've never been cheaper and any impending updates will not affect the performance of the current 5D in any way. .......

AdamJL
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 11:44
I would buy a 5D in a second if it was weather-sealed.
And if Canon don't upgrade the 5D soon to weather sealing, I'll buy a 5D when the upgrade comes out.

BTBeilke
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 11:48
Stuart,

Is the Dell deal you mentioned still available? Currently, the best deals (from anybody with whom I'd do business) that I can find put the 5D cost around $2100 after rebates.

sapearl
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 12:51
Blane, unfortunatley this was a "fleeting" deal that only seemed to appear for a couple of days back around Thanksgiving. You just have to keep checking the site periodically in all areas.

It was one of those double, 15% discounts that you had to dig for. And it did not appear in all areas of the Dell site either, which did not strike me as very sporting. What I did learn though is that deals like these seem to randomly pop up on their site, and can sometimes be improved with various web coupons. It does take some irritating diligence though.

Stuart,

Is the Dell deal you mentioned still available? Currently, the best deals (from anybody with whom I'd do business) that I can find put the 5D cost around $2100 after rebates.

sapearl
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 12:55
Yes, I would have liked weather sealing also as I do some hiking with it, and various weddings have been in poor weather .... but this has not hurt the camera. Is this your concern, or do you routinely take it into downpours :D ?

I do take care of my gear, and common sense handling of non-weather sealed equipment will give it many years of good life.

I would buy a 5D in a second if it was weather-sealed.
And if Canon don't upgrade the 5D soon to weather sealing, I'll buy a 5D when the upgrade comes out.

AdamJL
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 13:30
Look where I live, I'm in the country of constant drizzle.

I would also like a body that can handle the extremes a bit better than the current 5D. I can afford a 1Ds Mk II but I'm not going to buy it as I don't think I'm a good enough photographer to warrant that expense.
I'll be doing some extreme travelling in the near future to Icey climes and jungles, and after taking my 350D into the Sahara a little while ago, I know how easy it is for a camera to suffer at the hands of the elements.
So even a mass-produced consumer camera can benefit from weather sealing!

DrPablo
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 13:33
This sounds like the patent clerk that decided to close the patent offie because he believed that all that can be invented have been invented and no new patent is necessary.

Not quite -- he's invoking perfectly logical market dynamics. The market has to be there for the 5D if Canon is going to throw R+D money into improving it. The 5D is a camera that is really hard for Canon to earn money from. It will never have volume sales like the rebels and 30D, and it will never have the premium pricing and 'pro quality' markup of the 1-series without being a flagship camera.

And there's no way a successor to the 5D will be sold for cheaper than the 5D's price -- it will either be a little tweak and sold for the same price, or it will be a big tweak and more expensive.

But whatever Canon does, people here will complain about it either way.

sapearl
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 14:44
Ah - I have a much better understanding of your circumstances now ;) . I can see your logic. How did the 350D fare in the Sahara?

......I'll be doing some extreme travelling in the near future to Icey climes and jungles, and after taking my 350D into the Sahara a little while ago, I know how easy it is for a camera to suffer at the hands of the elements.......

AdamJL
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 17:52
Ah - I have a much better understanding of your circumstances now ;) . I can see your logic. How did the 350D fare in the Sahara?

It took good pictures, but good lord, the sand hated that camera... and my tripod... and my camera bag... and my lenses :(

Still.. it worked and that's the most important thing!

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/2903/img5243cy9.jpg

Punisher77
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 19:31
Still.. it worked and that's the most important thing!




Great shot!

sapearl
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 19:47
Beautiful photograph Adam - I love the tonal gradations. The darker foreground lightening into the distance gives the image a tangible sense of depth. In no way is this a flat image... I feel like I can walk into the distance. - Stu

lostdoggy
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 20:27
Not quite -- he's invoking perfectly logical market dynamics. The market has to be there for the 5D if Canon is going to throw R+D money into improving it. The 5D is a camera that is really hard for Canon to earn money from. It will never have volume sales like the rebels and 30D, and it will never have the premium pricing and 'pro quality' markup of the 1-series without being a flagship camera.

And there's no way a successor to the 5D will be sold for cheaper than the 5D's price -- it will either be a little tweak and sold for the same price, or it will be a big tweak and more expensive.

But whatever Canon does, people here will complain about it either way.

Again the patent clerk holds true. Maybe today or yesterday its not feasible for a company to produce a product and be able to make money on it but tomorrow is a different day. For example PS3 and XBOX360, their respective manufacture takes a pounding everytime one is sold, from what I hear about $100 to $200 maybe even more. But tomorrow the console manufacture will more then recover that cost in another associated product, games. What Canon is selling is a commitment in a system not just a body. So even if canon takes a lost on every 5D they sold, which I doubt very much, they'll make it back on lenses and flashes and grips that they sell in the future. They will also know that once your'e commited to the EOS system you'll more then likely buy another and another. Just like the crack dealer knows.

Phil Light
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 20:43
...What Canon is selling is a commitment in a system not just a body. So even if canon takes a lost on every 5D they sold, which I doubt very much, they'll make it back on lenses and flashes and grips that they sell in the future. They will also know that once your'e commited to the EOS system you'll more then likely buy another and another. Just like the crack dealer knows.

I agree. I also think that Canon knows that they HAVE to continue to provide a mid-priced camera between the ~$1000 Rebels and the ~$7000 1 series. Even if there was an extremely low profit margin for the 5D I think they wouldn't want to lose this market for exactly the reasons you stated.

gdl357
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 22:25
Again the patent clerk holds true. Maybe today or yesterday its not feasible for a company to produce a product and be able to make money on it but tomorrow is a different day. For example PS3 and XBOX360, their respective manufacture takes a pounding everytime one is sold, from what I hear about $100 to $200 maybe even more. But tomorrow the console manufacture will more then recover that cost in another associated product, games. What Canon is selling is a commitment in a system not just a body. So even if canon takes a lost on every 5D they sold, which I doubt very much, they'll make it back on lenses and flashes and grips that they sell in the future. They will also know that once your'e commited to the EOS system you'll more then likely buy another and another. Just like the crack dealer knows.

True, but I can sell my equipment tomorrow and jump to Nikon if I wanted and they would of lost a few more lens purchases from me in the future. Lower your profit margin gawd dahmit!

They should have the Costco mentality. Sell them by the pallet at cost plus 5% and instead of making 30% on 100 cameras, they will make 5% on 1000. At the same time putting their name all over the world many times over.

I think they can do better on the price, its not even a pro model and its not weather seald. How much do orings cost, $0.05 each? :rolleyes:

Anyways, I have decided that my next will be a 40D (will have to live with 1.6") as I have tried out a Nikon this weekend and don't really like the feel of them. So I will remain with Canon and swollow all the cr*p they dish out.

lostdoggy
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 22:50
True, but I can sell my equipment tomorrow and jump to Nikon if I wanted and they would of lost a few more lens purchases from me in the future. Lower your profit margin gawd dahmit!


Do you think that by moving over to Nikon is a good idea??? It took Nikon 3 years to replace the D100 and to this day Nikon has nothing to compete w/ the Canon 5D. Canon have 1Ds/1D MKII/n where as nikon has D2x/h both crop sensors.

With 5D selling at or about $2k after rebate I believe that is a reasonable price by comparason the Nikon D200 is $500 more then the 30D and performs poorly by comparason to 30D in high ISO above 400.

gdl357
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 23:45
Do you think that by moving over to Nikon is a good idea??? It took Nikon 3 years to replace the D100 and to this day Nikon has nothing to compete w/ the Canon 5D.


I was at the counter looking at this guy buy a camera for his wife.

The salesman put a xti and a d80 on the table. Guess what? They walked away with a complete Nikon kit. One look in the viewfinder and they were sold. Supposedly it is bigger and clearer.

So don't forget, consumers don't care about all these technical specs that only pros understand. Its what they saw in the viewfinder that convinced them.

So what if Canon is the only one that has FF, consumers won't give a _hit. Nikon could very well take the market if the want. All they have to do is give better rebates than canon and people will swarm over. It's not the 10% pro camera sales that will keep Canon alive.

If the NEW 5D would be $2000, I would buy it. Other than that, they just lost a sale because they are playing on the fact that RIGHT NOW they are ahead of the game. Afterwards, when they have competition they pull out their good pricing and beg us to buy. Why not do it now.

Thx

DrPablo
8th of January 2007 (Mon), 23:47
Again the patent clerk holds true. Maybe today or yesterday its not feasible for a company to produce a product and be able to make money on it but tomorrow is a different day. For example PS3 and XBOX360, their respective manufacture takes a pounding everytime one is sold, from what I hear about $100 to $200 maybe even more. But tomorrow the console manufacture will more then recover that cost in another associated product, games. What Canon is selling is a commitment in a system not just a body. So even if canon takes a lost on every 5D they sold, which I doubt very much, they'll make it back on lenses and flashes and grips that they sell in the future. They will also know that once your'e commited to the EOS system you'll more then likely buy another and another. Just like the crack dealer knows.

So we're both right in a technical sense.

You're just making an optimistic rationalization, and I'm just being a cynical curmudgeon.

We have no idea what will happen.

AdamJL
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 04:15
Thanks Punisher & Stu

AdamJL
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 04:20
Do you think that by moving over to Nikon is a good idea??? It took Nikon 3 years to replace the D100 and to this day Nikon has nothing to compete w/ the Canon 5D. Canon have 1Ds/1D MKII/n where as nikon has D2x/h both crop sensors.

THe D200 is a reasonable competitor to the 5D. Massively lower price point, but it's a great camera. 1.5 Crop and ISO performance aside....

DrPablo
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 12:10
THe D200 is a reasonable competitor to the 5D. Massively lower price point, but it's a great camera. 1.5 Crop and ISO performance aside....


Here's how the two compare head to head. I'm no Nikon lover, but the two cameras are not exactly leagues apart and the D200 has some clear cut advantages. I think the 5D is obviously the better camera with respect to the image quality of any given shot, but that doesn't translate to all camera features (and certainly not to price). In this comparison they also hamstrung the D200 by using a better lens on the Canons (the 50 f/1.4) than on the Nikon (the 50 f/1.8 ) and it's hard to know whether to attribute IQ differences to the camera or the lens.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/page25.asp

gdl357
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 12:39
Here's how the two compare head to head. I'm no Nikon lover, but the two cameras are not exactly leagues apart and the D200 has some clear cut advantages. I think the 5D is obviously the better camera with respect to the image quality of any given shot, but that doesn't translate to all camera features (and certainly not to price). In this comparison they also hamstrung the D200 by using a better lens on the Canons (the 50 f/1.4) than on the Nikon (the 50 f/1.8 ) and it's hard to know whether to attribute IQ differences to the camera or the lens.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/page25.asp

Except for the buffer and 1 or two other features, the D200 smokes the 5D. Could you image their next model... Look at the PRICE! what a beut!

sapearl
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 12:48
I confess I don't know a whole lot about the D200, but I'd be curious how many wedding shooters pick the 5D over the D200 or vice versa.

Fast buffer, FF, larger viewfinder, excellent noise handling at higher ISO, large RAW file size - this is what decided me over the 20D or 30D for wedding work. It just seemed like a logical equivalent when I left MF film. Out of curiosity, what's the D200 going for these days?

Except for the buffer and 1 or two other features, the D200 smokes the 5D. Could you image their next model... Look at the PRICE! what a beut!

pieq314
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 12:59
In this comparison they also hamstrung the D200 by using a better lens on the Canons (the 50 f/1.4) than on the Nikon (the 50 f/1.8 ) and it's hard to know whether to attribute IQ differences to the camera or the lens.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/page25.asp
There is an explanation on dpreview why they chose Nikon 50mm f/1.8 instead of 50mm f/1.4: the f/1.8 has better image quality than the f/1.4.

DrPablo
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 14:33
I confess I don't know a whole lot about the D200, but I'd be curious how many wedding shooters pick the 5D over the D200 or vice versa.

Fast buffer, FF, larger viewfinder, excellent noise handling at higher ISO, large RAW file size - this is what decided me over the 20D or 30D for wedding work. It just seemed like a logical equivalent when I left MF film. Out of curiosity, what's the D200 going for these days?

At B+H using the PSNOV code the D200 body is going for $1299. That's pretty amazing.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=470394&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

The 5D's buffer still loses out to the D200. The D200 shoots 5 fps through 22 RAW files versus the 5D (3 fps through 17 RAW files). Nikon's flash metering system (reputedly) is better than Canon's, and the D200 is weather sealed. And considering it's half the price of the 5D, many people can live with the sensor and noise differences. The tradeoff is the better image quality with the 5D. Coming from larger formats myself, I'm certainly one who believes that enlargement factor is far more important than megapixels (as is easy to demonstrate mathematically), and that of course favors full frame.

It just seemed like a logical equivalent when I left MF film

It indeed seems like a logical choice. But MF cameras, whichever one you're using, compromise a lot of small format conveniences in favor of their great glass and big negative size. So going to the 5D is certainly a logical choice from MF -- you give up some of the conveniences of the 1-series or Nikon's D2X, but you get the best image quality of probably any DSLR.

There is an explanation on dpreview why they chose Nikon 50mm f/1.8 instead of 50mm f/1.4: the f/1.8 has better image quality than the f/1.4.

If they really want to test the two cameras against one another, they need to use the same lens with an adapter. It doesn't matter which lens, it just has to be the same.

sapearl
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 15:48
The D200 certainly is less expensive, but not HALF the price of what it's possible to pick up a 5D for.

With the recent Black Friday feeding frenzy that had been going on I was able to pick up a 5D for $485 more than the 1299 D200.... substantial pocket change, but not double.

The 5D's 3fps performance is fine for my wedding work as I don't do any sports shooting. Weather sealing would certainly be nice to have, but I've never owned a sealed camera in 35+ years of heavy usage and have survived ok ;) .

Flash metering differences/superiority? Clueless there since I had to learn ETTL-2 from scratch after using just plain old auto-thyristor lighting for a couple of decades. But as you indicate, it was that FF sensor & image quality of the 5D that sold me.

At B+H using the PSNOV code the D200 body is going for $1299. That's pretty amazing.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=470394&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

The 5D's buffer still loses out to the D200. The D200 shoots 5 fps through 22 RAW files versus the 5D (3 fps through 17 RAW files). Nikon's flash metering system (reputedly) is better than Canon's, and the D200 is weather sealed. And considering it's half the price of the 5D, many people can live with the sensor and noise differences. The tradeoff is the better image quality with the 5D. Coming from larger formats myself, I'm certainly one who believes that enlargement factor is far more important than megapixels (as is easy to demonstrate mathematically), and that of course favors full frame.........

lostdoggy
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 19:59
I was at the counter looking at this guy buy a camera for his wife.

The salesman put a xti and a d80 on the table. Guess what? They walked away with a complete Nikon kit. One look in the viewfinder and they were sold. Supposedly it is bigger and clearer.

So don't forget, consumers don't care about all these technical specs that only pros understand. Its what they saw in the viewfinder that convinced them.

So what if Canon is the only one that has FF, consumers won't give a _hit. Nikon could very well take the market if the want. All they have to do is give better rebates than canon and people will swarm over. It's not the 10% pro camera sales that will keep Canon alive.

If the NEW 5D would be $2000, I would buy it. Other than that, they just lost a sale because they are playing on the fact that RIGHT NOW they are ahead of the game. Afterwards, when they have competition they pull out their good pricing and beg us to buy. Why not do it now.

Thx

One of few possibility:
She'll never get out of the box to realize the potential of the camera.
She'll never get a quality lens to realize the potential of the camera.
She'll be standing shooting pics of junior next to someone in the stand shooting w/ a canon and realize what a piece of crab the Nikon is at high ISO. Return the camera and gets herself a canon.

DrPablo
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 20:38
One of few possibility

Well, you sure seem to have figured her out. Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that she'll like the camera and that it will meet her needs -- whatever lens she buys and however she uses it?

Monito
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 20:47
This sounds like the patent clerk that decided to close the patent offie because he believed that all that can be invented have been invented and no new patent is necessary.

You completely misinterpreted my remarks, but that is your privilege.

lostdoggy
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 21:13
Well, you sure seem to have figured her out. Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that she'll like the camera and that it will meet her needs -- whatever lens she buys and however she uses it?

I never said I got them all but most likely scenarios.

My sister was my reference point. She bought herself a film rebel many years ago took maybe at best 20 rolls of film then she move into the digital realm and got herself a Oly 4040 (I think) P&S and every time she takes it to an event she would have dead batteries. At our niece's wedding I loan her my AA batteries and then she told me that her memory card was full. She never downloaded the card since the time she bought the Cam. She told me it was too much of a hassle. Go figure!!!

lostdoggy
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 21:17
You completely misinterpreted my remarks, but that is your privilege.

I was actually agreeing with your comment on Nikon and their attitude on FF sensor. Saying that FF is not necessary and later announcing that the technology is ready for FF sensors.

DrPablo
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 21:23
I never said I got them all but most likely scenarios.

Well, you'd have to admit it was in a pretty negative and probably incomplete way. First of all, nothing you've said applies uniquely to Nikon except for the noise issue, and if you do any reading on it you'll find that the noise is not as bad as everyone here says. Every single digital Nikon in current production has far better noise than my 300D. And yet I consider my 300D is perfectly fine when it comes to noise.

But you speak somewhat derisively about her not getting out of the box, or not buying another lens, not 'realizing the potential' of her camera.

This ignores the prospect that the full potential of her camera might be meaningless to her. It's like me accusing you of not using your stovetop to full potential because you're not trying to cook like Mario Battali. You're getting from it exactly what you want -- and what's wrong with that?

My sister was my reference point. She bought herself a film rebel many years ago took maybe at best 20 rolls of film then she move into the digital realm and got herself a Oly 4040 (I think) P&S and every time she takes it to an event she would have dead batteries. At our niece's wedding I loan her my AA batteries and then she told me that her memory card was full. She never downloaded the card since the time she bought the Cam. She told me it was too much of a hassle. Go figure!!!

My mother-in-law used to have her own darkroom and do her own enlarging and printing. She now has a sleek little Digital Elph that my wife got her. She's got a great eye for photography, and yet the camera is in many ways beyond what she'll sit down and learn.

Don't forget that we're motivated internally, and there's some call-and-response relationship between our needs and our behavior. When it comes to cameras like the D2X and 1DsII and other high end cameras, I do think it's silly for people to be buying them if they're not going to get something out of them beyond them beyond a point and shoot. But that's just because it's a waste of money to buy an expensive machine like that if you'll get the same out of something 15% of its price.

But then think about whom all camera manufacturers are appealing to with their entry level DSLRs. They're appealing to everyone pretty much, from kids and hobbyists to burgeoning landscape / portrait / product / whatever professionals. So the cameras will almost always have capabilities that not everyone needs.

gdl357
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 21:42
Dr. Pablo speaks the truth. Unbiased, the way it should be.

Doggy,
So who cares about the noise pro's are complaining about. The woman doesn't know what noise is or ISO. All she knows is she has a bigger camera (MP) than her nextdoor neighbour.

You buy what you like. Don't go blasting someone because he didn't buy what you have or would have liked.

Today it will be Canon, tomorow can be another. You will still take pictures.

Canon makes mistakes to, so don't be embarrassed to say it when they do. Stop being a Canon CEO wannabe.

The whole debate is that Canon has cut corners on their cameras including the 5d. Read signature. Not the so great camera you make it out to be. For the money, the competition has the 5D beat.

Thx

lostdoggy
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 21:58
Dr. Pablo speaks the truth. Unbiased, the way it should be.

Doggy,
So who cares about the noise pro's are complaining about. The woman doesn't know what noise is or ISO. All she knows is she has a bigger camera (MP) than her nextdoor neighbour.

You buy what you like. Don't go blasting someone because he didn't buy what you have or would have liked.

Today it will be Canon, tomorow can be another. You will still take pictures.

Canon makes mistakes to, so don't be embarrassed to say it when they do. Stop being a Canon CEO wannabe.

The whole debate is that Canon has cut corners on their cameras including the 5d. Read signature. Not the so great camera you make it out to be. For the money, the competition has the 5D beat.

Thx

Oh please tell me which competitor has a camera out that can beat the 5D!!!

I never said the 5D is a great camera, but it certainly not the lame duck you make it out to be.

But I'm sure that in a few month your shining knight Nikon will release just for you a new FF sensor with weatherseal, in body VR, auto dust removal, noiseless DSLR for under $1000.00!!!

BTW, I used Nikons for over 25 years before switching over to Canon because they were the 1st to offer a DSLR for under $1000. That my friend is a marketing genius

DrPablo
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 23:16
Oh please tell me which competitor has a camera out that can beat the 5D!!!

Yawn. How are your cheerleading tryouts going?

gdl357
9th of January 2007 (Tue), 23:29
Oh please tell me which competitor has a camera out that can beat the 5D!!!

I never said the 5D is a great camera, but it certainly not the lame duck you make it out to be.

But I'm sure that in a few month your shining knight Nikon will release just for you a new FF sensor with weatherseal, in body VR, auto dust removal, noiseless DSLR for under $1000.00!!!

BTW, I used Nikons for over 25 years before switching over to Canon because they were the 1st to offer a DSLR for under $1000. That my friend is a marketing genius

No its not, what does 25 years of film have to do with it.

more like 25 years of regret from what you say it is.

Enjoy your Canon, as I will be enjoying mine soon, but for a much better price.

ScottE
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 00:01
I confess I don't know a whole lot about the D200, but I'd be curious how many wedding shooters pick the 5D over the D200 or vice versa.


Most professional wedding photographers have either Canon or Nikon lenses and choose a body that fits their lenses. It would almost never be a 5D vs. D200 choice unless the shop burned down and they had to start over. I doubt that any clients could tell whether their wedding shots was taken with one or the other of those cameras if they did't watch what the photographer was using.

Sprout Crumble
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 02:11
She'll be standing shooting pics of junior next to someone in the stand shooting w/ a canon and realize what a piece of crab the Nikon is at high ISO. Return the camera and gets herself a canon.

Heres a newsflash mate, Nikons D40/D50/D80 are actually excellent at high-ISO and the equal of the XT/XTi to all but the fussiest.

AdamJL
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 03:30
For the money, the competition has the 5D beat.

Yes and no. Feature wise, the D200 is an awesome camera.
But image quality, the 5D wins hands down. It's a beautiful camera, and to be honest, image quality should be the FIRST and most IMPORTANT factor in deciding which camera is better.
But the D200 makes up for it by giving the consumer features that Canon won't even consider on the 5D.

Heres a newsflash mate, Nikons D40/D50/D80 are actually excellent at high-ISO and the equal of the XT/XTi to all but the fussiest.

That's the low-end. At the high end line-up, Canon has Nikon beat. I'm sure eventually Nikon will catch up though, but right now, the 5D and 1D series are much better at noise than the D2s and D200s.

roli_bark
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 03:33
Enjoy your Canon, as I will be enjoying mine soon, but for a much better price.

If you don't have to say something intelligent or helpfull - please don't bother, and say nothing.

sapearl
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 08:45
When I switched from MF to my first dSLR, overall image quality was my primary concern; picking the 5D was a no brainer. I had no prior lenses to use or consider. But I did enjoy my first Canon, a 1971 FTqL, so I figured I'd stay with familiar equipment ;) .

But I can also understand why an amateur shooter might be drawn to the price, quality and feature set of the D200. However, that's just not good enough for what I wanted, and spending the additonal $484 was more than worth it to me. Each to his own....

Yes and no. Feature wise, the D200 is an awesome camera.
But image quality, the 5D wins hands down. It's a beautiful camera, and to be honest, image quality should be the FIRST and most IMPORTANT factor in deciding which camera is better.
But the D200 makes up for it by giving the consumer features that Canon won't even consider on the 5D.



That's the low-end. At the high end line-up, Canon has Nikon beat. I'm sure eventually Nikon will catch up though, but right now, the 5D and 1D series are much better at noise than the D2s and D200s.

DrPablo
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 10:25
It just depends what kind of price you put on the practical image quality difference between the 5D and others (also aknowledging, Sapearl, that it's pretty hard to find the price you got -- most people are paying ~ $2200 with rebates). And also for many it's 30D versus 5D. So it can be a $1000 difference. For many people the image quality of the 30D isn't so god-awful that they'd pay $1000 to make it better. Just as for you, if you shot Hasselblad, the image quality of the H3D isn't so good that you'd pay an extra $20,000 for it.

sapearl
10th of January 2007 (Wed), 11:04
Agreed Dr. - fortunately I was not in a hurry to get the second body. I'm not an "early adopter" and I was very happy to patiently watch the market for the right time and best price. Admittedly my deal was unusually good.

It just depends what kind of price you put on the practical image quality difference between the 5D and others (also aknowledging, Sapearl, that it's pretty hard to find the price you got -- most people are paying ~ $2200 with rebates). ......

pmburden
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 05:58
I don't think Canon will bring out a new 5D until early 2008 - at the moment I don't see any drivers to force them into a faster release.

terry44
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 11:14
I don't think Canon will bring out a new 5D until early 2008 - at the moment I don't see any drivers to force them into a faster release.

How about sales of the 5D dropping off?

cdesperado
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 11:45
The nearly continuous string of 5D rebates tells me something is afoot.... My guess is, the distributors know something is coming and are using the rebates to persuade get the fencesitters to make the plunge and get the 5D.

If Canon doesn't release some new bodies in March, I will be absolutely stunned. I think it would be a bold move on their part to release upgrades to the 1 and 5 series at the same time... these boards are evident enough that there IS a market audience who is eager to buy the next generation of these camera bodies.

Just my opinion of course...

sapearl
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 12:49
Well, I don't really know if sales of the 5D are dropping off, but more and more people on this forum seem to be buying them ;) .

How about sales of the 5D dropping off?

cdesperado
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 13:03
He probably was linking the rebate offerings to a decrease in sales... which is somewhat logical.

Lower sales (or a "leveling out" of sales) means you offer rebates, which in turn will then drive the sales back up.

The kicker is, the rebate extension that just happened. My guess is, someone somewhere had a sales number that they expected to meet, but didn't because some people (not the average consumer or prosumer) saw beyond the immediate rebate and were willing to gamble that the rebate was being offered because a new body was coming.

Waiting to see what will happen with the 1 series and 5 series is making me CRAZY ! :-D

sapearl
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 13:23
Understandable ...;) ... I was just happy to get a super deal on my 5D with the double bucks. So far it does everything I need it to. I suppose weather proofing would be nice, but I don't do sports and have never owned a truly weatherproof camera in all my years of shooting, and have not suffered for it. I understand how others would benefit from it though.

He probably was linking the rebate offerings to a decrease in sales... which is somewhat logical.......Waiting to see what will happen with the 1 series and 5 series is making me CRAZY ! :-D

CoolToolGuy
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 13:31
He probably was linking the rebate offerings to a decrease in sales... which is somewhat logical.

Lower sales (or a "leveling out" of sales) means you offer rebates, which in turn will then drive the sales back up.

The kicker is, the rebate extension that just happened. My guess is, someone somewhere had a sales number that they expected to meet, but didn't because some people (not the average consumer or prosumer) saw beyond the immediate rebate and were willing to gamble that the rebate was being offered because a new body was coming.

Waiting to see what will happen with the 1 series and 5 series is making me CRAZY ! :-D

I recently read an article about Christmas sales that said many retailers are anxious about January because they had a huge bulge in sales of gift cards this year, and most retailers don't report them as sales until they are used - which they expect to happen in January & February. That may have something to do with the extension.

Have Fun,

cdesperado
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 14:14
Hmmmm. Interesting. That does make sense.

I guess my question there would be, of those retailers, what percentage of them are people who carry prosumer camera gear. It seems like gift cards would be sold more regularly at places like Target, clothing stores, but electronics stores would also have a lot of them I bet. I guess I always figure gift cards are more in the $25-50 range rather than $250-500 range.

Still, I think the rebate pattern itself is indicating something... but that could be wishful thinking on my part.

Congrats on getting the double-bucks! I have to admit, there is a part of me that wishes I had picked up a 5D back in August, just to play with it and wait to see what would happen this March.

BearLeeAlive
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 20:36
I had a retailer talk me outta buying a 5D at Christmas time, even with the double rebates telling me to wait until spring if I was thinking of going full frame.

I don't really have a clue what he knows, he would not give any details, and it was not a huge deal as I was not completely decided on what route to take with my next camera purchase, but I do plan on adding a new body this year for sure. I sure hope he really did have a clue what he was taking about. I made it clear I did not wish to go to a pro body too.

sapearl
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 21:31
Was he trying to push you to a different body instead, at the time?

I had a retailer talk me outta buying a 5D at Christmas time, even with the double rebates telling me to wait until spring if I was thinking of going full frame.......

BearLeeAlive
16th of January 2007 (Tue), 22:37
Was he trying to push you to a different body instead, at the time?
Not at all, he was glad to sell me $3k worth of glass but told me I should wait on buying a new body.

ruchad1
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 05:49
Wierd... i was asked if i would like to buy a 5d several times when i got my 24-70. this last weekend.

ashdavid
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 08:26
I was at the counter looking at this guy buy a camera for his wife.

The salesman put a xti and a d80 on the table. Guess what? They walked away with a complete Nikon kit. One look in the viewfinder and they were sold. Supposedly it is bigger and clearer.

So don't forget, consumers don't care about all these technical specs that only pros understand. Its what they saw in the viewfinder that convinced them.

So what if Canon is the only one that has FF, consumers won't give a _hit. Nikon could very well take the market if the want. All they have to do is give better rebates than canon and people will swarm over. It's not the 10% pro camera sales that will keep Canon alive.

If the NEW 5D would be $2000, I would buy it. Other than that, they just lost a sale because they are playing on the fact that RIGHT NOW they are ahead of the game. Afterwards, when they have competition they pull out their good pricing and beg us to buy. Why not do it now.

Thx
That tells me nothing about why that couple decided on a Nikon??? I find it very hard to believe that they picked up the canon ,looked through the veiw finder and then did the same for the nikon, then in that one minute or so that it takes to look through the veiw finder of two cameras, decided on the nikon! I would hate to see that couple buy a car!

BearLeeAlive
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 11:09
That tells me nothing about why that couple decided on a Nikon??? I find it very hard to believe that they picked up the canon ,looked through the viewfinder and then did the same for the nikon, then in that one minute or so that it takes to look through the viewfinder of two cameras, decided on the nikon! I would hate to see that couple buy a car!
It is so true that many people buy for what they appear to be getting for the dollar. I have a good friend who bought the Canon D80 over the xTI based on the price of it and a kit lens with more range than the 17-55. She just assumed because it was an SLR that it will take great photos and was only missing a few bells and whistles. This was despite a few coaching sessions on my part. This Nikon she bought to me is terrible, the lens even more plasticy than Canons consumer line, but you know, she is happy and gave her money to Nikon.

My company build homes and does major renovations. The customers we work with want, and will pay for, quality. There are many out there that I eliminate because they believe they can get the same thing for more money. I have seen people who have bought an new home and are real proud of the quality features built into the home, a home I would be ashamed to build at that level of quality.

So I would have to agree with gdl467 that only 10%, but more likely nearer 20% of camera consumers really know what they are buying and will be sold on one great feature and likely a few others that are ones that in the end don't really matter.

I also agree that it would be in Canon's best interest to stay ahead of the market, being know only for their innovations, not their responses to other companies products.

red hot sheep
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 12:08
I would love a 5d sensor and viewfinder in a D200 body with a Canon Mount.

AdamJL
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 12:41
I would love a 5d sensor and viewfinder in a D200 body with a Canon Mount.

Damn that sounds good..
Any engineers on these boards willing to try it out?!

CoolToolGuy
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 13:52
Damn that sounds good..
Any engineers on these boards willing to try it out?!

Sort of like the "Street Rod" of DSLRs? :D

Have Fun,

sapearl
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 14:02
Yeah.... pimp my 5D ;)

Damn that sounds good..
Any engineers on these boards willing to try it out?!

lostdoggy
17th of January 2007 (Wed), 23:15
I would love a 5d sensor and viewfinder in a D200 body with a Canon Mount.

Just add a tube of silicon chaulking.

ashdavid
18th of January 2007 (Thu), 04:39
It is so true that many people buy for what they appear to be getting for the dollar. I have a good friend who bought the Canon D80 over the xTI based on the price of it and a kit lens with more range than the 17-55. She just assumed because it was an SLR that it will take great photos and was only missing a few bells and whistles. This was despite a few coaching sessions on my part. This Nikon she bought to me is terrible, the lens even more plasticy than Canons consumer line, but you know, she is happy and gave her money to Nikon.

My company build homes and does major renovations. The customers we work with want, and will pay for, quality. There are many out there that I eliminate because they believe they can get the same thing for more money. I have seen people who have bought an new home and are real proud of the quality features built into the home, a home I would be ashamed to build at that level of quality.

So I would have to agree with gdl467 that only 10%, but more likely nearer 20% of camera consumers really know what they are buying and will be sold on one great feature and likely a few others that are ones that in the end don't really matter.

I also agree that it would be in Canon's best interest to stay ahead of the market, being know only for their innovations, not their responses to other companies products.
I agree, but the point I was trying to make that gdl467 left out was that, there are a whole range of circumstances that can effect what camera is finally choosen. For instance what the salesman had said to the couple, what the couple were looking for, or how about this one they have a friend who is using nikon and they were already convinced that they wanted to buy a nikon. This information was left out, or again gdl467 doesn't know b/c all he saw was what went on in the shop! No one should comment on why someones eles decided on a certain product and then use that as evidence for general consumer buying trends.

blackshadow
18th of January 2007 (Thu), 20:52
Sort of like the "Street Rod" of DSLRs? :D

Have Fun,

I wonder if we will ever get to the point where we can custom order our DSLRs - eg specify if you want options such as weather sealing, dust reduction, sensor size and resolution, crop size, inbuilt grip etc.

I personally love the idea!

BearLeeAlive
18th of January 2007 (Thu), 21:04
I wonder if we will ever get to the point where we can custom order our DSLRs - eg specify if you want options such as weather sealing, dust reduction, sensor size and resolution, crop size, inbuilt grip etc.

I personally love the idea!
Not a bad idea, and not likely that difficult to do. I would imagine it would push the cost up quite a bit though.

sapearl
18th of January 2007 (Thu), 21:49
Certainly feasible - sort of like having a "custom" built house made to your specifications.

The BASE house/5D would cost you $xxxx.00 made from the standard plans, which could actually be pretty reasonable. But as soon as you submit that costly change order for one upgrade from column A, and one from B - kaboom! The unit price takes a huge jump for the specialty features.

Not a bad idea, and not likely that difficult to do. I would imagine it would push the cost up quite a bit though.

shiato storm
19th of January 2007 (Fri), 18:26
'alloy shutter blades'...?

ijohnson
20th of January 2007 (Sat), 10:34
I would love a 5d sensor and viewfinder in a D200 body with a Canon Mount.

I just got to hold a D200. Everything seemed ok but the dial that you would turn with your pointer finger was very awkwardly located. I think Canon got the ergonomics right on it's cameras. I would imagine that its the weather sealing you are thinking about.

Anyway, I know a guy that knows this girl who happens to be friends with this other girl who's boyfriend knows this old lady who also happens to know the president of Canon. The 5d is not being replaced, EVER. It will continue to show an upward sales trend until everyone in the world is buying one. The landfills will be overflowing with magnesium alloy. Fortunately the eventual end of the world, resulting from too many 5d's, will be VERY well documented.

sapearl
20th of January 2007 (Sat), 11:13
You got the story wrong.... it was the first cousin, not the boyfriend;) ...

.....Anyway, I know a guy that knows this girl who happens to be friends with this other girl who's boyfriend knows this old lady who also happens to know the president of Canon. The 5d is not being replaced, EVER. ......

Geoffery
21st of January 2007 (Sun), 13:27
The EOS 5D is here for one simple reason: Preventing people from investing in Nikon's D2X (Now D2Xs) in droves. Much has been said about that Nikon body threatening to take sales away from the Canon EOS System's 1D-series cameras initially since it cost slightly more than a 1D MK II/N and cheaper than a 1Ds MK II. Plus the benefits of both - high speed (crop factor) and high MP resolution despite the 1.5x crop factor.

Put a similar MP DSLR in the market but with a full-frame sensor, 3 fps and no weather-sealing nor reliability in extreme conditions and the planned exodus to the Nikon camp is halted in its track. And it did.

Whoever investing in the EOS 5D would automatically buys L lenses - I have yet to come across any 5D user that uses a consumer-graded EF lens or any of the 3rd-party brand lenses. Anyone else seen that?

sapearl
21st of January 2007 (Sun), 16:07
I would tend to agree Geoffery, and this was completely true in my situation.

I only own two lenses, but they are both "L"s and do everything I require of them at this time. Since the 5D was my first dSLR when I migrated from MF film, I needed glass that was as close to the Zeiss lenses I'd been using. While the L "is no Jack Kennedy..." it is still a damn good investment and performs as advertised. No complaints. :D

....Whoever investing in the EOS 5D would automatically buys L lenses - I have yet to come across any 5D user that uses a consumer-graded EF lens or any of the 3rd-party brand lenses. Anyone else seen that?

SuzyView
21st of January 2007 (Sun), 16:10
Maureen uses her Tamron 28-75 on her 5D. :)

sapearl
21st of January 2007 (Sun), 16:45
See, just goes to show.... what do I know :lol: ? Opinions are just like elbows - everybody has at least two.

Maureen uses her Tamron 28-75 on her 5D. :)

NickSimcheck
21st of January 2007 (Sun), 20:33
Anyway, I know a guy that knows this girl who happens to be friends with this other girl who's boyfriend knows this old lady who also happens to know the president of Canon. The 5d is not being replaced, EVER. It will continue to show an upward sales trend until everyone in the world is buying one. The landfills will be overflowing with magnesium alloy. Fortunately the eventual end of the world, resulting from too many 5d's, will be VERY well documented.

*Hillbilly-Howellite-Voice* Oddam yeppies n yer erganic squersh, en taters, en tomaters, tofu en whutnut...whtah elL u talkn bout boyh? */End-Hillbilly-Howellite-Voice*

Lord_Malone
22nd of January 2007 (Mon), 11:26
I need to buy a NEW model FF DSLR like a 5D, and there is no way I will be spending 2500 on a 1.5yo camera. If Canon won't pull one out early this year, I will surely sell all my Canon setup to move on to the one that does.

Thx

And what the hell does age have to do with it exactly? People are still spending thousands of dollars on 1D and 1D Mark II bodies, both of which are significantly older than a 5D. The 5D will take great photos no matter how old or how much it cost. Your reasoning eludes me.

BTW, if Canon doesn't "pull one out" this year, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

EDIT: I'm sorry. I'm generally not this cruel. I responded without reading the entire thread.

radiohead
22nd of January 2007 (Mon), 11:28
And what the hell does age have to do with it exactly? People are still spending thousands of dollars on 1D and 1D Mark II bodies, both of which are significantly older than a 5D. The 5D will take great photos no matter how old or how much it cost. Your reasoning eludes me.

Amen to that.

terry44
22nd of January 2007 (Mon), 13:52
And what the hell does age have to do with it exactly? People are still spending thousands of dollars on 1D and 1D Mark II bodies, both of which are significantly older than a 5D. The 5D will take great photos no matter how old or how much it cost. Your reasoning eludes me.


Well, I'm looking for another 1D body (already have two) but have been putting it off for several months now because I don't want to invest that kind of money and see a better camera come out just after.

SunTsu
22nd of January 2007 (Mon), 14:14
He probably was linking the rebate offerings to a decrease in sales... which is somewhat logical.

Lower sales (or a "leveling out" of sales) means you offer rebates, which in turn will then drive the sales back up.

The kicker is, the rebate extension that just happened. My guess is, someone somewhere had a sales number that they expected to meet, but didn't because some people (not the average consumer or prosumer) saw beyond the immediate rebate and were willing to gamble that the rebate was being offered because a new body was coming.

Waiting to see what will happen with the 1 series and 5 series is making me CRAZY ! :-D

I work for an consumer communications hardware company and the only time we ever do rebates is to BOOST sales. If something is selling really well, we don't offer rebates because they are so costly. In case it's not obvious, the fulfilliment of an $XXX dollar rebate costs a magnitude higher than the face value. In addition, the % of people who send them in is astoundingly low, but with high values like the "Double Rebate" on the 5D, the fulfillment rate goes up a lot.

This is purely anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth. I was at CES just a couple of weeks ago and asked one of the Product Managers if and when they were going to replace the 5D. He first gave me is cheeky, "If I tell you, I will have to kill you...and if I knew, I wouldn't tell you". After a little more poking, he told me that he didn't feel that Canon has any reason to replace the 5D because there is simply no competition with a FF sensor from Nikon, etc.

Personally, I think Canon is due to replace the 5D. I haven't used a 5D, but I am sure it takes fabulous pictures, but it's just a bit long in the tooth for something that is arguably in the consumer electronics segment. I'm not a pro photographer, but I love toys and am lucky enough to be able to afford a 5D. However, I am sure that like many other that fall into the "addressable market" of the 5D, we want the latest and greatest. Early adopters are probably the same group of people that make up a chunk of the 5D target consumers and early adopters hate dated equipment. In the consumer electronics world, the 5D is ancient. Sure, in the pro world, the 5D is still in the middle of its product life cycle, but when you have P&S camera with more features and 10MP sensors (whehter good or not), it's going to make people like me who are not great photographers, but like the newest equipment, sit and wait. I'm sure Canon execs understand how CE product life cycles work and as great as the 5D is, I'm sure the percentage of professionals who buy the 5D is lower than the number of hobbyists, early adopters, gadget freaks and people with lots of $$$ who just buy toys.

Oh...here's one more anecdote: While at the Canon booth at CES, there were a group of porn stars (the Adult Convention coincides with CES every year) that were also looking at the 5D, 1D, etc. I couldn't help but stare and eavesdrop. Of the 5 or 6 people in the entourage, 2 of them had 5Ds with them and all of them were asking about when the FF bodies were going to be replaced. They weren't asking about features or anything; they were just looking to buy new gear for the sake of buying new gear.

lostdoggy
22nd of January 2007 (Mon), 20:20
Sun you have answer the most perplex question, consumer in general likes new product whether for good or bad where as educated consumer look for the best product available for the money and the pro looks for the best product (reliability) available. Therefore as you can see Canon release the XTi first for the consumer and possibily release a more consumer driven body. Then they will release one for the educated consumer who is looking for the best buy for their money most likely a 30D replacement (since it wasn't much of a replacement from the 20D) since they been salivating over the XTi's new features like DiGIC III and anti-dust. This is of cause with notion that thus who haven't move on to the 5D. Then their are those 20/30D owners that are looking to move up to a FF sensor but hasitant because they are waiting to see how much better the 5D replacement will be before they take the dive. This is because they are educated consumers. Then there are those who hoping that the 1D will merge into one body and the 5D replacement will bridge the difference, FF sensor, weather seal 45 point focusing and 5fps but in the current body size and weight at the current 5D price.

As for the Adult Entertainment, it could possibly be that they can write it off as capital depreciation or insurance replacement. It is after all a very dangerous job.

terry44
23rd of January 2007 (Tue), 09:29
Sun you have answer the most perplex question, consumer in general likes new product whether for good or bad where as educated consumer look for the best product available for the money and the pro looks for the best product (reliability) available.

When we buy a 1 series camera we take reliability as a given. Lower noise would be a massive help, as would focussing accuracy and speed in low light. Just today I lost money because my 1DII would not focus well enough in low light. More resolution would also be nice.

sapearl
23rd of January 2007 (Tue), 09:45
When we buy a 1 series camera we take reliability as a given. ...... Just today I lost money because my 1DII would not focus well enough in low light. More resolution would also be nice.

Unfortunately there are still those low light situations where autofocus won't do the job. That's why we still retain manual focus capability ;) ; no camera system today is infallible.

But I appreciate how you feel - for many years I've manually focused EVERYTHING, and have only recently become extremely spoiled by Canon's autofocus system. When you get used to a nice feature, it's a disappointment when it doesn't work.

terry44
23rd of January 2007 (Tue), 10:55
Unfortunately there are still those low light situations where autofocus won't do the job. That's why we still retain manual focus capability ;) ; no camera system today is infallible.

But I appreciate how you feel - for many years I've manually focused EVERYTHING, and have only recently become extremely spoiled by Canon's autofocus system. When you get used to a nice feature, it's a disappointment when it doesn't work.

I couldn't really follow focus a fast moving cycle in low light as I'm using a series I 300mm f2.8 and the manual focussing on that thing is dreadful. But even if it had had full time manual focussing, I doubt if I could have followed the bike in that light (I was also using flash so couldn't just hose either).

sapearl
23rd of January 2007 (Tue), 11:24
I couldn't really follow focus a fast moving cycle in low light as I'm using a series I 300mm f2.8 and the manual focussing on that thing is dreadful. But even if it had had full time manual focussing, I doubt if I could have followed the bike in that light (I was also using flash so couldn't just hose either).

Ah... point taken ;) . The rapid action of your shooting situation is far more demanding than my typical wedding reception. I know that I certainly could NOT pull that off.... I feel your pain.

terry44
23rd of January 2007 (Tue), 11:52
Ah... point taken ;) . The rapid action of your shooting situation is far more demanding than my typical wedding reception. I know that I certainly could NOT pull that off.... I feel your pain.

Yeah, news can be quite stressful, especially during the cold dark winter months. I'm really hoping the new 1D will help though...

drive_75
30th of January 2007 (Tue), 18:18
Damn that sounds good..
Any engineers on these boards willing to try it out?!

Send me your 5D and 200D and I'll give it shot.:D

er wei
31st of January 2007 (Wed), 22:11
Now lets consider this....Canon is the only provider of FF bodies at present, other manufacturers are not joining in, possibly because the marketing gurus dont think consumers are in the market for high quality images, just the snap shot variety.

However, the best selling of the "cheap" DSLR's to this day, is the 350D(rebelXT), coincidently the low-end Dslr with the best image quality of the pack(educated guess).

My point is this. What would happen if Canon, in the near future, made a FF DSLR. In a slightly enlarged XTi body, and sold it for the price of a D200 or equivalent?

U get all the Pro advantages, but without the heavy build quality needed for professional field work.

It could knock Nikon and the others right off the map.

Canon ..... do you hear me?

I would sure as hell get one!

lostdoggy
31st of January 2007 (Wed), 22:34
Now lets consider this....Canon is the only provider of FF bodies at present, other manufacturers are not joining in, possibly because the marketing gurus dont think consumers are in the market for high quality images, just the snap shot variety.

However, the best selling of the "cheap" DSLR's to this day, is the 350D(rebelXT), coincidently the low-end Dslr with the best image quality of the pack(educated guess).

My point is this. What would happen if Canon, in the near future, made a FF DSLR. In a slightly enlarged XTi body, and sold it for the price of a D200 or equivalent?

U get all the Pro advantages, but without the heavy build quality needed for professional field work.

It could knock Nikon and the others right off the map.

Canon ..... do you hear me?

I would sure as hell get one!

I don't think Canon is that stupid to throw down their trump card this early in the game. Although no other manufacture currently have a FF body in the market doesn't mean there aren't working on one particularly Sony. I think the next company to offer a FF will be Sony and possibily resurrect the Minolta name or maybe the Contax name thru Zeiss.

sapearl
31st of January 2007 (Wed), 22:37
..............I think the next company to offer a FF will be Sony and possibily resurrect the Minolta name or maybe the Contax name thru Zeiss.

All you'd have to do is name drop those high end words Contax and Zeiss, and that would certainly grab the attention of some.

er wei
1st of February 2007 (Thu), 20:46
No no, thats not what I ment. This is not about paying poker.

All I'm saying is, I think there are a lot of people out there who would like to get better images, that can be enlarged to, say , posters. Without the kind of quality loss that we get with todays consumer models. And not spend a years savings. And I believe a lot of people would replace their Nikons, Pentax and sony a100s if they could get a Canon FF for less than 2k. People who are reasonably happy with their current setup. But aware of the obvious advantages of FF.

Naturally, most people are suckers for functions, but some are also suckers for picture quality. And I believe there is a large enough market.

Canon have a real chance here, to be the first to cover all the bases. Hell why not make a panorama dslr, something like a digital Xpan, and a proper Medium format. I'm not suggesting monopolizing the industry is the way to go. But hey....

sapearl
1st of February 2007 (Thu), 20:56
........Hell why not make a panorama dslr, something like a digital Xpan, and a proper Medium format. I'm not suggesting monopolizing the industry is the way to go. But hey....

A digital Widelux would be a pretty slick machine. You can still pick them up - now THAT'S a panoramic camera!

lostdoggy
1st of February 2007 (Thu), 21:11
Actually I wasn't referring to Poker. Trump as in Bridge.

lostdoggy
1st of February 2007 (Thu), 21:12
All you'd have to do is name drop those high end words Contax and Zeiss, and that would certainly grab the attention of some.

Yeap and Sony/Zeiss and Panny/Leica are also betting on that as well.