Cropping, once again, I want to make sure I don't crop to small

[90blackcrx]

So I'm trying to figure out, how can I crop something, and not crop it smaller then the intended pictures ( which is 4x6 ) so I think I might have it but I'm probably wrong.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/90blackcrx/dddd.jpg

While cropping if I watch that box I circled, it will show you the measurements, if thats above 1800x1200 , should I be ok ? I just don't want to crop something so small, that mpix will have to blow it up to get it to fit on a 4x6.

After you press crop, or left go of the cropping tool, the measurment just goes to 1800x1200 which confuses me.

[A468BU]

You have 4x6 in the dimensions set in "px" and not "in". Change that setting and if you are goin to be printing them from home set the res at 300

[90blackcrx]

You have 4x6 in the dimensions set in "px" and not "in". Change that setting and if you are goin to be printing them from home set the res at 300

You are correct, don't mind that though. I had it set to 1800x1200 but did not want to confuse people, so just act like its inches, or just act like that box says 1800x1200.

[rfreschner]

If you don't fill in a resolution when you fill in the Width and Height (in inches, not pixels) and hit enter and then check Image/Image Size, the Resolution will show what your resolution is set at after the crop.

[90blackcrx]

If you don't fill in a resolution when you fill in the Width and Height (in inches, not pixels) and hit enter and then check Image/Image Size, the Resolution will show what your resolution is set at after the crop.

Hmm so when the lab gets the picture, the document size it only relevant right ? I don't get it though, how can the document size always be 4x6, even when I keep cropping the same picture.

[Scottes]

If you type in "4in" and "6in" and "300" for the PPI, you'll end up with a pic that's 1200x1800, which is *exactly* what you need to print a 4x6 at 300 PPI.

As to the circled numbers, the width is larger than 1800 and the height is larger than 1200, so Photoshop will resize the image smaller to fit your specificed 4x6@300. Since the numbers aren't too different you'll end up with a near-perfect image to print. A little sharpening and a conversion to sRGB and it will be perfect.

[90blackcrx]

As to the circled numbers, the width is larger than 1800 and the height is larger than 1200, so Photoshop will resize the image smaller to fit your specificed 4x6@300. Since the numbers aren't too different you'll end up with a near-perfect image to print. A little sharpening and a conversion to sRGB and it will be perfect.

I totally understand that, but what happens when the photo is smaller ? What does photoshop do to get it 4x6 ?

[rfreschner]

Hmm so when the lab gets the picture, the document size it only relevant right ? I don't get it though, how can the document size always be 4x6, even when I keep cropping the same picture.

Actually, the document size is not really relevant at all. You can crop to 4x6 and send it to MPIX and print it as 8x12, 8x10..... whatever, as long as you stay within their minimum sizes. You're only telling PS to constrain the proportions to that size. Here's an example:

The first image is where I'm setting the 6x4 crop. The dimensions that show in the bottom left show the PPI that the image would be at the size shown. (At least they would if you could see them at this size) It really means nothing at this point.

http://rfreschner.smugmug.com/photos/119692318-M.jpg

The second image shows it after the first crop. If you look at the bottom left it will show that if I print this at 6x4, the PPI will be 340.

http://rfreschner.smugmug.com/photos/119691835-M.jpg

The third image shows what happens if I crop the second one again using the same dimensions. Now the PPI at that size would be 196.5.

http://rfreschner.smugmug.com/photos/119691848-M.jpg

As you can see the 6x4 means nothing unless you plan to print it at that size. The image you produce when you save this does not explicitly say anywhere in it that it's a 6x4 image, you can print it at whatever size you want.

[rfreschner]

I totally understand that, but what happens when the photo is smaller ? What does photoshop do to get it 4x6 ?

If you fill in the dimensions and resolution as Scottes pointed out, PS will upsample the image to make it a 4x6 at 300 PPI. In other words, it will manufacture the missing pixels to the best of its ability to get to that size.

[rfreschner]

Whoops, fixed 3rd image in previous post to the right link.

[90blackcrx]

so then its pretty hard to screw up, unless you just crop someones head then ( anything very tiny ) ? Then it would be to small ? I'm just worried about cropping to much. Also found this on mpix

Print Size Minimum Image Resolution
Wallets 150x250
4x6 400x600
5x7 500x700
8x10 800x1000
16x20 1600x2000
20x30 2000x3000

[rfreschner]

Yup... methinks you're overanalyzing it. ;) Experiment, experiment, experiment......

[90blackcrx]

Yup... methinks you're overanalyzing it. ;) Experiment, experiment, experiment......

True, but I like to understand things. I still don't understand how any image you crop, no matter how much you pick with the crop tool, it will result in 4x6 or anything put in the crop box. What is document size really ? Whats the defintion.

[Scottes]

so then its pretty hard to screw up...
Yep. About the only way to screw up is too think too hard over it rather than just doing it and seeing the result. :-)

[90blackcrx]

Yep. About the only way to screw up is too think too hard over it rather than just doing it and seeing the result. :-)

True, but if I cropped a picture very tiny, like finger nail tiny, then it would have to be blown up right ? And it would not be sharp ?

[CRE@TE]

Look at the 4 x 6 as a shape, nothing more than a shape.

[90blackcrx]

Look at the 4 x 6 as a shape, nothing more than a shape.

So what determines the actually size of the picture ( when printed ) pixle dimension ?

[CRE@TE]

Let me put it this way. A picture from your Rebel XT taken at maximum size. You crop it to say 25% of the original size, you'd still have enough to make a good quality 4 x 6 print.

[CRE@TE]

so then its pretty hard to screw up, unless you just crop someones head then ( anything very tiny ) ? Then it would be to small ? I'm just worried about cropping to much. Also found this on mpix

Print Size Minimum Image Resolution
Wallets 150x250
4x6 400x600
5x7 500x700
8x10 800x1000
16x20 1600x2000
20x30 2000x3000

Well, from what you have posted here. Mpix wants a minumum resolution of 100 dpi to print. That s 100 dots per inch of print.

[Scottes]

Yep. About the only way to screw up is too think too hard over it rather than just doing it and seeing the result. :-)

True, but if I cropped a picture very tiny, like finger nail tiny, then it would have to be blown up right ? And it would not be sharp ?
In you follow the instructions, and enter 4in and 6in and 300 PPI, it will NOT come out the size of a fingernail.

Please just try it. Please.

[Radtech1]

I would crop that in portrait (up and down) orientation, not landscape as you have it. With your crop there will be too much junk (literally!) and you will be cropping off some of Dog.

Rad

[90blackcrx]

Let me put it this way. A picture from your Rebel XT taken at maximum size. You crop it to say 25% of the original size, you'd still have enough to make a good quality 4 x 6 print.

See thats my issue though, how do you know how much you can take away, before the photo gets smaller then 4x6.

[Scottes]

See thats my issue though, how do you know how much you can take away, before the photo gets smaller then 4x6.
Watch the Info on the right, where you circled your numbers. As long as those numbers are close - within a couple hundred - it will be fine. If those Info numbers are larger then don't worry at all - anything larger than 1200x1800 will be more than enough.

[90blackcrx]

Watch the Info on the right, where you circled your numbers. As long as those numbers are close - within a couple hundred - it will be fine. If those Info numbers are larger then don't worry at all - anything larger than 1200x1800 will be more than enough.

If the resolution is 300 ?

[Radtech1]

Where are you having the shots printed?

Rad

[90blackcrx]

Where are you having the shots printed?

Rad

mpix

[rfreschner]

Please just try it. Please.

Pretty please.......

[Radtech1]

Where are you having the shots printed?

Rad


Actually, never mind that question. It is irrelevant. If you are having the photo commercially (Costco, MPix, YouNameIt) printed they don't care what the size or resolution is!!! So if you are showing a resolution of 300, or 180, or 72 it doesn't matter!!! If your crop is 800 x 1200 or 3200 x 4800, (say it with me), it doesn't matter!!!

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is the aspect ratio!!!

If the final product you send them is 4 units (inches, cubits, whatever) one dimension and 6 units the other, and you request 4 x 6 inch prints, they will automatically upscale/downscale your file- as needs be - so that it will fit in a print without printing it like a postage stamp in the middle, and without cutting away the outer parts.

They do this for you so you don't have to worry about it.

As far as image quality goes, you can crop down to as much as 1/4th the original shot and still get usable 4 x 6 prints.

Rad

[90blackcrx]

As far as image quality goes, you can crop down to as much as 1/4th the original shot and still get usable 4 x 6 prints.


Is there anyway to tell 1/4th of the original image though ? Or do you tell just by looking ? I have read and read and what you said before makes sense, ppi, does not matter to them.

What am I suppose to try Scotte ? I missed that, I'll reread.

[90blackcrx]

In you follow the instructions, and enter 4in and 6in and 300 PPI, it will NOT come out the size of a fingernail.

Please just try it. Please.

I can crop as much as I want though, thats the issue. What if I wanted to crop someones nose ? It would still say 4in by 6in but it would be smaller then that.

[Radtech1]

[Is there anyway to tell 1/4th of the original image though ? Or do you tell just by looking ?

Just eyeball it. You'll be fine. Not brain surgery here.

Rad

[Radtech1]

I can crop as much as I want though, thats the issue. What if I wanted to crop someones nose ? It would still say 4in by 6in but it would be smaller then that.

I am beginning to understand an old professor who used to throw his hands up in exasperation and shout "You buy 'em books and all they do is eat 'em."

PLEASE re-read this:

If the final product you send them is 4 units (inches, cubits, whatever) one dimension and 6 units the other, and you request 4 x 6 inch prints, they will automatically upscale/downscale your file- as needs be - so that it will fit in a print without printing it like a postage stamp in the middle, and without cutting away the outer parts.

So to re-re-repeat again, if you ask for a 4 x 6 you will get a 4 x 6 even if it is just a nose.

Rad

[90blackcrx]

And they would have to upscale causing bluryness correct ?

[CRE@TE]

If you send a file to their minumum specified size of 400 x 600 pixels of un-resampled pixels, the photo should not be blurry.

[Radtech1]

And they would have to upscale causing bluryness correct ?


Correct, but unless you are upscaling from something the size of my avatar, the appearance on a 4 x 6 print will still be adequate.


Rad

[CRE@TE]

resampling is like using digital zoom on a point and shoot camera. Software tries to decide what pixels it should add.

[90blackcrx]

If you send a file to their minumum specified size of 400 x 600 pixels of un-resampled pixels, the photo should not be blurry.

But that was my point, no matter how much you crop out of a picture, the size will always say 1800x1200, 4x6 .

[CRE@TE]

Are you typing in the resolution too 300? If so, it's going to resample the picture. Leave that part blank.

[90blackcrx]

Are you typing in the resolution too 300? If so, it's going to resample the picture. Leave that part blank.

Makes sense, ok so then the document size says 4x6 and the resolutiin is 323. So whats the min the pixle size should be then ?

[Radtech1]

OK, now I think you are just effen with us to see how many times you can get us to answer the same question.

I'm sorry I played along.

:mad:

[CRE@TE]

Nothing less than what Mpix ask for. so, for a 4x6 no less than 400 x 600. More pixels won't hurt, just no less than the minumum. From the looks of your dog picture, If you just crop the dog, you'll have about 25%. That would be plenty.

[CRE@TE]

I'll get to 1000 post yet. :)

[90blackcrx]

Nothing less than what Mpix ask for. so, for a 4x6 no less than 400 x 600. More pixels won't hurt, just no less than the minumum. From the looks of your dog picture, If you just crop the dog, you'll have about 25%. That would be plenty.

Got ya, see I just wanted to make sure that 400x600 was the pixle dimension and not document size. Thanks I got it now. So the only time cropping is really an issue, is say you have 3 people in a picture, that would be hard to fit on wallet size picture, let alone crop it ?

Radtech, I was not messing around, it was hard for me to understand.

[CRE@TE]

I'd crop it like such and clone out some of the stuff in the background.

[davidcrebelxt]

You can still crop those pictures just fine to fit on wallet size, you will just tend to have more unused image space.

Basically when you send an image to be printed, you should never worry that the picture has too many pixels, or is too high a resolution. The first time you crop TOO MUCH you will know it when you get the image back... it will look "digital" "pixilated" or "grainy"

I really wish Photoshop would make the resampling option in a hidden "more options" type menu.... I think that would solve half of these problems since people would see that cropping changes the resolution.

[90blackcrx]

You can still crop those pictures just fine to fit on wallet size

What I was saying was, if you have a picture of 3 people, it will be hard to fit them all in with a 8x10 picture.

[90blackcrx]

I'd crop it like such and clone out some of the stuff in the background.

Are you zooming in on that picture though, cause it looks blurry. But if you did crop a picture that small, it would still come out looking good on a 4x6 print. I'm going to try it out and see what happens.

[CRE@TE]

I enlarge it for the purpose of showing you what i did. Yes, I did enlarge it.

[CRE@TE]

I'm going to remove that photo because I don't have permission to edit it.

[Radtech1]

I think that would solve half of these problems since people would see that cropping changes the resolution.


If you crop using the rectangle select tool, it will not change the resolution.

Rad

[90blackcrx]

If you crop using the rectangle select tool, it will not change the resolution.

Rad

It changed when I did and left the resolution blank.

[davidcrebelxt]

What I was saying was, if you have a picture of 3 people, it will be hard to fit them all in with a 8x10 picture.

:shock:

All depends on how you have your subjects positioned... Get them standing close together and you could do an 8x10... or just crop horizontal at 10x8 instead, it will still fit in frame.

[CRE@TE]

It changed when I did and left the resolution blank.


He was referring to a different crop tool. But, we won't get into that one for now.

[Radtech1]

It changed when I did and left the resolution blank.

No it didn't.

[90blackcrx]

He was referring to a different crop tool. But, we won't get into that one for now.

Oh, I thought he was talking about the one used on photoshop that I thought everyone uses.

[rfreschner]

Oh, I thought he was talking about the one used on photoshop that I thought everyone uses.

He was talking about using the rectangle select tool in PS, not the crop tool.

[davidcrebelxt]

I like this thread... it makes me laugh.

[rfreschner]

Always happy to do what I can to amuse you David!

[Souwalker]

You have 4x6 in the dimensions set in "px" and not "in". Change that setting and if you are goin to be printing them from home set the res at 300

'px' and not 'in'
Where is that?
I'm new to CS2.
Thanks
Pat

[rfreschner]

'px' and not 'in'
Where is that?


Pat - you just type it into the Width and Height boxes; i.e. 4 in. and 6 in.

[90blackcrx]

I like this thread... it makes me laugh.

:) glad I could help, but really thanks everyone for taking the time out and helping me.

[rfreschner]

Not a problem. That's what we're here for - to help each other out.

[davidcrebelxt]

:) glad I could help, but really thanks everyone for taking the time out and helping me.

Sorry, I'm not making fun of you... I can remember how long it took ME to fight through some this crop stuff at first! I wish I'd had known about forums like this back then.

Trust me, you'll sort through all of this eventually. And you've got us to help you out... or confuse you as the case may be.