Workflow question for an ameteur...

[nicksan]

Hello,

I'm still pretty new to the world of PP.
Really don'd do much except raw conversion and basic corrections in DPP. I have the latest version of DPP so I am able to get rid of some noise, but the darker pics that were taken ISO 1600 doesn't look all too great yet.

I checked out a trial version of Bibble, actually just so I can check out Noise Ninja and I definitely see potential there. It cleans up a lot of the noise.

I'm trying to figure out the overall workflow that is typically used. Let's assume that my tools will consist of :

RAW Files from 30D
DPP
Noise Ninja
Photoshop CS2I usually copy raw files using a card reader onto my hard drive. Then I usually open them up in DPP. I am very interested in Noise Ninja. I know they have both a standalone and plug-in version. I guess I am a little confused where either of them fit into this picture.

Should I do basic correction in DPP first, then use Noise Ninja? If so, do I leave it raw or should I convert to another format? Same line of question for PS. Do I save it as TIFF, then use the NN plugin to clean things up?

Any help is much appreciated!

[ibdb]

Noise Ninja (I have the plug-in version) is used on a file after you've finished your initial processing (correcting exposure, etc.) and not on an unprocessed RAW file. The changes you make to a RAW file can increase or decrease visible noise, so it wouldn't make sense to use it until after the initial round of processing.

[tzalman]

.
Should I do basic correction in DPP first, then use Noise Ninja? If so, do I leave it raw or should I convert to another format? Same line of question for PS. Do I save it as TIFF, then use the NN plugin to clean things up?

Any help is much appreciated!

Any editing you have done in DPP and saved either by overwriting the original RAW or by saving a second RAW, cannot be read by any other converter. Thus, Running a RAW through DPP and then opening it with PSCS/ACR is like not using DPP at all. Save the output from DPP as a tif which you then open in PS.

[kevin_c]

Any editing you have done in DPP and saved either by overwriting the original RAW or by saving a second RAW, cannot be read by any other converter. Thus, Running a RAW through DPP and then opening it with PSCS/ACR is like not using DPP at all. Save the output from DPP as a tif which you then open in PS.

You can't write RAW files from any program as far as I know - You can only create a CR2 RAW file from a Canon digital camera.
Therefore the original RAW is never overwritten or changed in any way, you must save the changed image as jpeg or tiff (tiff being preferable IMO)

[René Damkot]

Almost. The RAW data isn't altered, but a 'recipe' is written to the file somehow. This recipe is read by DPP, not by other RAW converters.
And yes, you can duplicate a RAW in DPP. Usefull if you want to process a file twice with different settings. (say; once for shadow detail, once for highlights)

[kevin_c]

Almost. The RAW data isn't altered, but a 'recipe' is written to the file somehow. This recipe is read by DPP, not by other RAW converters.
And yes, you can duplicate a RAW in DPP. Usefull if you want to process a file twice with different settings. (say; once for shadow detail, once for highlights)

I stand corrected, i didn't think you could do that, although I don't tend to use DPP.

Does it actually change the file, or just apply settings from the 'recipie' to the original - i.e. can you go back to the original RAW by reverting back to 'as shot' or something?

[René Damkot]

You can go back and change whatever you want. It's a RAW ;)

[Olegis]

Here is what I do (I have Capture One LE instead of the DPP) :

1. Create a directory for the new files (usually named YYMMDD_Event_description, like 061201_Anya_model).
2. Copy the RAW files from the memory card to the new directory.
3. Rename the files to OC_YYMMDD_Unique_number.CRW (this step is necessary because I want every file in my system to have a different and unique name - for cataloging purposes).
4. Open Adobe Bridge and point it to the new directory. Apply copyright information and general metadata to all files, apply rates and labels. This step is necessary for cataloging purposes also.
5. Backup the new files to separate hard drive. I backup the files to an HDD in my other PC, which I use as a storage server (it is an old Pentium 500MHz machine with 320GB HDD for storage and backup).
6. Open and process the files in Capture One LE, save the output files as 16-bit TIFFs, Adobe RGB colorspace. The most logical thing with this workflow is to use the Adobe Camera RAW, but I just can't stand this software - no matter what I do and how I do it, I just can't get good results with it. Hopefully the next version of the Capture One will support XMP and will have better integration with iView cataloging software. Anyway, in the Capture One I adjust the WB, exposure and sometimes color.
7. Open the developed TIFFs in Photoshop, post-process and save accordingly to need.
8. Catalog the files in iView.
9. Backup the catalog file to separate HDD.

Basically, this workflow is a derivative of the one described in (excellent) "The DAM book" by Peter Krogh. He uses ACR, so he has better integration of RAW workflow.

I also recommend to divide the images into "buckets" (also a concept I read about in "The DAM book"). A bucket is just a directory with images - you start a new one (named RAW_0001, for example) and fill it with images until its size becomes about 4GB, which is a size of a DVD media today. Then you create the next bucket (named RAW_0002) and start filling it too, and so on. This structure is very easy to maintain because every bucket fits on one DVD media, so it's very easy to catalog and backup them. When the bucket is full, I burn two DVD medias with it and store one at home and the other at my office. This way I have my files backed up in four different places - my storage HDD, my backup HDD in a different PC and two DVD copies.

Hope it helps ;)

[nicksan]

Thanks for all the great info.

OK, so save as TIFF, then use Noise Ninja in PS...got it.

Just curious about the stand alone version of NN. I wonder what kind of file it reads...

[ibdb]

On their website, they specify TIFFs and JPGs as supported files. Their FAQ page also suggests when they believe it best to run NN.

As others have said, the only time a RAW CR2 is written is by the camera. All other post processing attaches instructions on how to display the RAW file that are read by your conversion program (ACR writes .xmp files, other programs save their instructions in various ways). That program uses those instructions either to complete a conversion to some other format (TIFF, JPG, etc.) or to render the version you see on screen while you continue your processing. The CR2 itself is not modified.

[tzalman]

You can't write RAW files from any program as far as I know - You can only create a CR2 RAW file from a Canon digital camera.

Therefore the original RAW is never overwritten or changed in any way, you must save the changed image as jpeg or tiff (tiff being preferable IMO)




As others have said, the only time a RAW CR2 is written is by the camera. All other post processing attaches instructions on how to display the RAW file that are read by your conversion program (ACR writes .xmp files, other programs save their instructions in various ways). That program uses those instructions either to complete a conversion to some other format (TIFF, JPG, etc.) or to render the version you see on screen while you continue your processing. The CR2 itself is not modified.

When you copy or move a RAW file from the memory card to your hard disk or from one folder to another on the HD, your computer reads the file and then writes a new, although duplicate, RAW file. Similarly, the only way DPP can save altered parameters within the RAW file is by overwriting the original. So technically it is not true that only a camera can write a RAW and beside that, if Canon know how to make a camera write a RAW, why wouldn't they know how to make a computer do it?

[ibdb]

...if Canon know how to make a camera write a RAW, why wouldn't they know how to make a computer do it?
Because it would cease to be a RAW file, and would then become a processed file. The whole concept behind a RAW file is that it is the unprocessed data, waiting for instructions on how you want to display it.

Check the last modified stamp of a RAW file. Make any change you want to a RAW file through whatever processor you choose. Then recheck the last modified stamp of the same file. It won't change. I don't use DPP, so I don't know what files it writes to store the instructions or where it stores those files, but I use ACR configured to write its instructions to an .XMP file. The .XMP file gets updated; the .CR2 doesn't.

[TeeJay]

The only time I use the stand alone Noise Ninja is if I'm running a quick "batch convert" on some .jpg files for a web-site preview. Other than that I tend to use the "plug in" from with PS.

I also tend to use DPP to initially convert the files from RAw, I find the sharpening in DPP to be pretty good - and much more straight forward to use than PS

TJ

[TeeJay]

...So technically it is not true that only a camera can write a RAW and beside that, if Canon know how to make a camera write a RAW, why wouldn't they know how to make a computer do it?

... yes, but what Kevin said is true, you won't find a "RAW" option in any software's drop-down "Save As" list.

TJ

[kpopowich]

Olegis,
Thanks for the detailed description of the steps in your workflow. Quick question about step 6 -
"6. Open and process the files in Capture One LE, save the output files as 16-bit TIFFs, Adobe RGB colorspace."
After you open and process your RAW files, do you save off the "processed RAW file" - so then you now have 2 copies of each RAW file saved - the original that you saved off in step 5, and the saved version with your exposure, white balance, etc. adjustments.? I use DPP for this step and it has a feature to allow you to click back to the original camera settings at anytime, but was just wondering if it's best to save off both versions.
Thanks

[ibdb]

After processing your RAW file, you don't have two copies of the RAW file. You have the original copy -- think of it like your "negative," and you have the processed file (TIFF, JPG, PSD, whatever) -- think of it like your "print."

Many times, processing doesn't end with the file output by your RAW converter. You may do a variety of other edits to that processed file. Typically, I'll have a RAW file with XMP data reflecting the processing choices I made at that step, a PSD file that has other edits (curves, sharpening, etc.), and potentially other derivative files (particular crops, ICC profiles for printing, JPG for web) that all get archived. I could recreate everything after the RAW conversion if I had to, or even recreate the whole process over again from RAW, but why should I? I did the work once. Disk space costs less to me than the time it takes to do the work over again.

I do choose to preserve the original RAW file because RAW processing technology is continually evolving, and my ability to use that technology is also evolving. My "best effort" of today could be significantly different from what I might be able to do at a later time. Or I might just decide to take an entirely different approach to the same image at a later date. Saving the original gives me the freedom to do both.