Anyone use Flourescent lights?

[spitfirejd]

Anyone out there use/familiar with daylight balanced flourescent lights? Anyone...Bueller...Bueller?

Okay, my real questions are they bright enough to shine through a light tent or diffuser panel for product photography? Any recommendations for which to buy, if any? B&H has Impact lights that are basically the same as their 500W tungsten lights but with 30W flourescent bulbs, also Bowens that are 90W (3 x 30W bulbs). How do I know how many watts are enough for flourescents?

I am interested in the flourescent lights b/c they are cool and I'm a dube with flash :confused:

[SkipD]

If you want to use fluorescent lighting, make sure that all of the lights have high frequency ballasts. If they have ballasts that run the lighting at line frequency, you will find some very serious problems with intensity and color unless you use some very specific shutter speeds (1/120, 1/60, 1/30, 1/15 for 60Hz) to make sure that the frame is exposed for a complete half-cycle or multiples of a half-cycle of the power.

[JX]

Monte Zucker uses them. I have seen him use them in person. He claims they are like having portable window light. Specifically he uses Westcott’s Spiderlite TD5 lights on boom arm stands with medium sized Apollo softboxes.

See shutterbug's review http://www.shutterbug.net/techniques/lighting/1005turnoff/


Jim

[spitfirejd]

Good tip about the frequency but it doesn't appear that most manufacturers tell you whether it is high frequ or not. Since both of the fixtures I was looking at can use both flourescent or hot lights, I doubt they're high frequ.

Excellent link, Jim! The Westcott's he uses are out of my budget, but the Lowell Ego lights are intriguing. I saw an ad for them a little while ago and asked my local camera shop about them. He didn't know anything about them and I forgot them until reading this article. They may be a better solution for me than messing with a light tent.

Thanks!

[Broncobear]

I use them and they are fantastic.....highly recommended for macro photography, I haven't tried them with portraits yet.

[Curtis N]

More info about the cyclical nature of fluorescent lighting and frequency here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=100091).

If the AC power is 60hz, 1/20 shutter speed will give you three full cycles, or 6 pulses of light. Anything at that speed or slower shouldn't give you any issues. Shutter speeds faster than 1/60 will create issues.

[Broncobear]

strange I use a shutter speed of 200+ and had no issues but I have see though light box the light goes through

[gjl711]

If you want to use fluorescent lighting, make sure that all of the lights have high frequency ballasts. If they have ballasts that run the lighting at line frequency, you will find some very serious problems with intensity and color unless you use some very specific shutter speeds (1/120, 1/60, 1/30, 1/15 for 60Hz) to make sure that the frame is exposed for a complete half-cycle or multiples of a half-cycle of the power.
One would think that any speed over 60 would cause problems irrespective of the light on duty cycle as you could never sync with a specific point in the 60 hertz sine wave.

[Curtis N]

One would think that any speed over 60 would cause problems irrespective of the light on duty cycle as you could never sync with a specific point in the 60 hertz sine wave.1/120 will work, since it will catch exactly half of the cycle, and will include the full range of brightness and color temp regardless of the timing (there are two pulses of light during each cycle). Speeds between 1/60 and 1/120 (1/80 or 1/100) can be problematic but not terrible. As you go past 1/120, it gets worse as the shutter speed gets faster.

[gjl711]

1/120 will work, since it will catch exactly half of the cycle, and will include the full range of brightness and color temp regardless of the timing (there are two pulses of light during each cycle). Speeds between 1/60 and 1/120 (1/80 or 1/100) can be problematic but not terrible. As you go past 1/120, it gets worse as the shutter speed gets faster.
But wouldn't 120 be just 1/2 of a cycle? and what if you open the shutter just as the bulb cuts off, and closes it before it cuts back on? Wouldn’t you get black? I think I'll take a few pics of a florescent bulb when I get home from work. :)

[Curtis N]

But wouldn't 120 be just 1/2 of a cycle? and what if you open the shutter just as the bulb cuts off, and closes it before it cuts back on? Wouldn’t you get black? I think I'll take a few pics of a florescent bulb when I get home from work. :)The thread I linked to above shows samples taken at 1/320 and 1/60 if you want a few examples. The brightness and color temperature vary according to the voltage. In each cycle, the voltage goes from zero to positive to zero to negative and back to zero. A pulse of light is emitted during both the positive and negative phases of the cycle. The light doesn't go on an off instantaneously, but gradually according to the sine wave.

So if you catch half of the cycle, you might get the positive half, or the negative half, or the center half that goes from positive to negative, or something in-between. No matter when the exposure begins and ends, catching half the cycle means catching a full pulse of light, or a combination of two partial pulses. It always adds up the same way.

I have seen plenty of shots demonstrating the viability of 1/120 shutter speed under fluorescent light.

http://boonecounty.info/Curtsgallery/wavesine2.gif

[spitfirejd]

WOW! You guys are giving me way more info than I bargained for:D I found some lights that say they are high frequency, but they are also high priced! The Lowell Ego lights claim to be "flicker free." I found a local dealer and tomorrow I'll go see for myself. I plan to take my digital camera with me to test them, but all this debate about shutter speeds has me a bit confused. What speed should I shoot at to best determine if flicker is going to be a problem? Thanks for all the info!!

[SkipD]

WOW! You guys are giving me way more info than I bargained for:D I found some lights that say they are high frequency, but they are also high priced! The Lowell Ego lights claim to be "flicker free." I found a local dealer and tomorrow I'll go see for myself. I plan to take my digital camera with me to test them, but all this debate about shutter speeds has me a bit confused. What speed should I shoot at to best determine if flicker is going to be a problem? Thanks for all the info!!To test for the problem, shoot at as fast a shutter speed as you can with the lens wide open. Shutter speeds at or faster than 1/250 should show the problem if it exists. Just shoot the same scene many times - you can even use the "machine gun mode" for this. Compare all the shots. If the lighting is the "wrong" type, you will see significant differences in the string of what should be identical shots.

[Curtis N]

If you're doing product shots then you can use a tripod and any shutter speed you want. You shouldn't have any need to go faster than 1/60 so it won't be an issue.

The big problem with fluorescents comes up when people try to shoot action, like martial arts, in a fluorescent environment where flash is prohibited. They need a fast shutter speed to avoid motion blur.

[Lee Smith]

For product shots I use it's either 150 or 200 watt flourescent bulbs from home depot,around $10, works out well. Sample shot using 5D/custom white balance. Sorry I should have downsized pic.
Leroy Smith

[SkipD]

For product shots I use it's either 150 or 200 watt flourescent bulbs from home depot,around $10, works out well. Sample shot using 5D/custom white balance. Sorry I should have downsized pic.
Leroy SmithThe 1/15 second shutter speed used for that shot fits my suggestions above perfectly for working with fluorescent lighting. That shutter speed has the shutter open for a full four cycles of 60Hz power for the shot.

If one uses conventional fluorescent lights with line-frequency ballasts for photography, it is important to realize the potential for erratic illumination level and color results.

[howard_k]

This thread comes at the right time for me as I am playing with my cheapo version of continuous lighting. I bought some Smith and Victor Digilight FL3 (3 bulbs per reflector) and no-name (1 bulb per reflector) continuous lamps to use with 5000K spiral compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs)

I called bulbs.com and asked someone if the CFLs I had just ordered were flicker-free and explained what I wanted to do. He told me that fluorescent lamps that use magnetic ballasts would have the 60 HZ issue (a flash of light shoots through the tube every 1/120th of a second) but that fluorescent lamps that use electronic ballasts use a frequency of something like 20,000 Hz.

I am under the impression that the CFLs with built in ballasts use electronic ballasts.

Using my Smith and Victor 3 CFL lamp, I did a rapid fire multiple test shots of white paper similar to what was done in this thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=100091

When I used a wide open aperture (3.5) and speeds of around 1/640th, I noticed a very slight variation of the white, but nowhere close to being as bad as what was found by Curtis N. I would say that the results were acceptable to me (a beginner), meaning that I could live with the slight variation for now.

I then changed my exposure settings to have a 1/60th shutter speed, and did my rapid fire test shots. I could not see any variation in the shade of white of each of those images.

So, my idea is to keep using my cheapo set up that I am building, use shutter speeds that are a multiple of 1/120 as explained in the other thread. However, I am not sure how easy this will be to implement since I will be varying aperture depending on what I want for depth of field.

Even though I am doing this on the cheap, I would think that the expensive Westcott Spiderlite TD5 using CFLs would have the same problem. I guess strobes are still better in terms of producing top-notch image quality/consistency?

[rjmhotrod]

I have 2 KinoFlo Diva 200 lights. I use them in TV interviews (as backlights and occasionally as fills). I've not tried them with still shots yet as they kind of live in the video van. BTW - I'm not a videographer, but a sound mixer. I just happen to own these lights because I rent them out when needed. They've more than paid for themselves in the 2 years I've owned them. I don't think they're bright enough to do full body portraits, but probably good for headshots and dramatic lighting. I'm going to bring them home sometime and play with them.

[Titus213]

I just did some test shots with a floor model Ott-lite, fluorescent true color lighting that my wife uses in her studio. No problems up to 1/200. Color was good and intensity constant. Shooting product type shots shouldn't be a problem.

[Curtis N]

I am under the impression that the CFLs with built in ballasts use electronic ballasts.Howard, thanks for the info. I would like to add this info about the high frequency ballasts to my thread, but I would rather have some more specific documentation that I can link to. I'll try to do some digging when I have time, but if you have any links to share that you think are both informative and credible, that would be appreciated.

[howard_k]

Hi Curtis,

I haven't been able to find any documentation to back up what I was told. If I can find something, I will let you know.

I do have some doubts whether the electronic ballasts really run at 20,000 HZ per second since I did notice very slight variations when I did my test photos at 1/640th of a second. However, the results are much better than what your experiments showed, so I believe that they are at a much higher frequency than 60 Hz.

H.

[Lightstream]

I'm using a pair of nearly-instant-strike Osram flourescents. You hit the switch and they come on straight away, with perhaps a 100-200msec delay, but close enough to normal incandescents that I don't worry about it.

No voodoo dancing around some cycles and non linear hertzian energies disturbing the equilateral force of my sensor either and unbalancing the 'chi' if I don't use a specific shutter speed. I just set f/8 aperture priority and shoot.. comes out nice.

[Mike V]

You rarely use diffusion with flouros.

You need to get them very close, because they don't throw well.
Getting them close also means they act as a larger source i.e. softer looking.


Kinos are great, but kind of expensive.

[spitfirejd]

Y'all have posted some great info. It turns out my local camera "store" doesn't actualy stock the Ego lights, or anything else I think, but they can order them. Heck, I can do that! Anyways, I think from everyone's comments that I will try flourescents. With a tripod and all the frequency issues won't be a problem, they're much cooler than tungsten, and simpler than flash. B&H offers this kit http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=379776&is=REG&addedTroughType=search which should get me started. Thanks for all the helpful info, but feel free to keep posting more :)

[sartek]

Electronic vs Magnetic ballasts: http://www.atlaslightingsupply.com/elecvsmag.html

electronic Ballasts convert the 60hz up to 20k or 40k.

I went through my local walmart and was lucky enough to find temperature rated flourescent tubes. I already had an electronic balast for my lights, and now I have the option of using 6 different tubes for color ranging from 3600k up to 7500K.

I think my $10 7500K daylight CFLs are my favorite so far. they're my "portable set" that I can use anywhere in a clip on light socket.