How do I get Photoshop CS for not too much money?

[Jesper]

I am using Photoshop Elements 2.0 that I got with my 10D now, but more and more I notice I want to do things that only the full version of Photoshop has - for example, layer masks, 16-bit editing, channels, curves.

But Photoshop CS is incredibly expensive here (the Netherlands, Europe). I know that in the USA and Canada you can upgrade from PS Elements to PS CS for only $299, using the special Microtek offer. Unfortunately, the small print on Adobe's website says the offer is only valid for US and Canadian residents. So that won't work...

On the Dutch Adobe site, an upgrade from PS Elements to PS CS costs € 719 for the International English version. The full version costs almost € 1000.... It looks like I can't order from Adobe's website in the US, because if I want to order, it automatically directs me to the Dutch shop with the Dutch prices.... :(

Another option would be to buy it from Amazon. On Amazon's website in the UK, it costs € 670, which is already cheaper than here, and on Amazon's website in the US it is $ 580 (about € 465), which is a LOT cheaper than here! :)

But..... if I buy it in the US and let Amazon ship it here, can I activate and register my US version of PS CS in Europe without problems? Will it work?

[evilenglishman]

are you sure amazon will ship to you from the UK? I remember a while back that people in Sweden were ordering books from the UK because they were a third of the price, but it was stopped.
Maybe they only ship to the UK now.

As for the activation/warrany I would e-mail adobe and tell them you are american/canadian/english and that you have moved to the netherlands and brought your copy with you.

[dtrayers]

What are the educational edition requirements in the Netherlands? Could you sign up to take a class at a local university and qualify for the student discount?

[4walls]

...

[Jesper]

Thanks for your answers!

I've bought lots of books at Amazon UK, never had a problem with them shipping the books to the Netherlands. The UK, Sweden and the Netherlands are all in the European Union, which means we can buy stuff in each other's countries, and you pay tax (VAT) in the country you buy it in, not in the country you're living in. It *should* work like that, I don't know if Sweden has a special position with regard to that rule - anyway, I don't think it applies to the Netherlands.

Educational requirements: I didn't see any special educational version in the Adobe online shop, but I'll have a look into that....

Suppose I let someone in the US or Canada buy it for the $299 offer, and have him/her ship it to me, would Adobe make problems if I want to activate or register that version here on my name?

[Ikinaa]

Thanks for your answers!

I've bought lots of books at Amazon UK, never had a problem with them shipping the books to the Netherlands. The UK, Sweden and the Netherlands are all in the European Union, which means we can buy stuff in each other's countries, and you pay tax (VAT) in the country you buy it in, not in the country you're living in. It *should* work like that, I don't know if Sweden has a special position with regard to that rule - anyway, I don't think it applies to the Netherlands.



You sure about this VAT handling?
I live in Luxemburg and when I buy a book @ Amazon.de, I get the luxemburgish VAT for books which is 3% instead of 16% (I think in germany)

[Jesper]

You sure about this VAT handling?
I live in Luxemburg and when I buy a book @ Amazon.de, I get the luxemburgish VAT for books which is 3% instead of 16% (I think in germany)

Well, I don't know what the official rules are exactly, but I've bought books from Amazon UK and photography gear from Germany and each time it worked like this - I paid the UK or German VAT. Also, when I bought CaptureOne, which is sold by PhaseOne in Denmark, I paid the Danish 25% VAT..... :(

[Ikinaa]

The VAT-rules of Amazon.de (in german)

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/526798/ref=br_bx_1_c_2_0/302-3368979-8460817

[Jesper]

The VAT-rules of Amazon.de (in german)

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/526798/ref=br_bx_1_c_2_0/302-3368979-8460817

Thanks.... it says that you have to pay the VAT of your own country, not the German VAT. I wonder if that means I paid too much for Capture One...

But I still have my question: suppose I let someone in the US buy the PS Elements to PS CS upgrade via the Microtek offer (http://www.adobe.com/store/products/special.jhtml?id=catMicrotek&sourcecode=112300), and have him/her ship it to me in Europe, will I be able to activate and register it with Adobe on my own name, even though the small print says the offer is only valid for US and Canada residents? ???

[evilenglishman]

Jesper
I think you have been lucky so far.
Generally when you buy goods from outside your own country you are "supposed" to pay VAT in your own country, you may also be subject to import tax, which is usually a percentage of the total value of the goods retail price in your country.

As for activation, I think the only person who knows the answer to this is Adobe. :wink:

[MediaMagic]

Holy Crap,
And I thought we were getting screwed by taxes in the US.. 25%? 16%? man, what a crock for you guys across the pond.

What would the gov't do if they somehow caught you importing a US version bypassing the VAT? Just curious.

[Jesper]

Holy Crap,
And I thought we were getting screwed by taxes in the US.. 25%? 16%? man, what a crock for you guys across the pond.
What would the gov't do if they somehow caught you importing a US version bypassing the VAT? Just curious.

Here in the Netherlands VAT is 19%. In the Scandinavian countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway), taxes are even higher than here...

If you arrive at the airport here with something you bought abroad in your luggage, you're supposed to declare it. You can declare it voluntarily and pay Dutch VAT, or you can try to sneak it in without paying, but if they check you and you can't show that you bought the thing in the Netherlands, you'll have to pay VAT and possibly a fine as well.... :(

[stopbath]

The VAT-rules of Amazon.de (in german)

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/526798/ref=br_bx_1_c_2_0/302-3368979-8460817

Thanks.... it says that you have to pay the VAT of your own country, not the German VAT. I wonder if that means I paid too much for Capture One...

But I still have my question: suppose I let someone in the US buy the PS Elements to PS CS upgrade via the Microtek offer (http://www.adobe.com/store/products/special.jhtml?id=catMicrotek&sourcecode=112300), and have him/her ship it to me in Europe, will I be able to activate and register it with Adobe on my own name, even though the small print says the offer is only valid for US and Canada residents? ???

Only the warranty department of you local Abode office will be able to tell you if you can claim a US or Canadian copy under warranty in Netherlands.
You might be able to activate the warranty for a sealed US or Canadian copy bought from a US or Canadian citizen.
YOu might be able to transfer the warranty for a used US or Canadian copy bought from a US or Canadian citizen.
You might be able to activate the warranty for a sealed US or Canadian copy received as a gift from a US or Canadian citizen. (Naturally, you would be sending them a gift of money...but they better be a real friend!)
And you might be able to activate the warranty for a US or Canadian copy you imported yourself.

It's all up to your local Abode office. If they want to warranty only the copies that they sell, well, that's their choice. US office may have different policies.

I think that the offer of sale has little bearing on warranty in another country. (Being that even if they sold it to you directly, the warranty could very well be only valid in the country of purchase...)

[Jesper]

OK...... I will ask Adobe and post what they answer here.... :roll:

[Be_there]

I've been thinking of the same issue - from a UK perspective.

Currently I have my eye on the upgrade version - about 140 pounds. There seem to be plenty of earlier versions around secondhand so I was thinking of getting one of them. I understand the upgrade will work with any full previous version.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[4walls]

The Microtek deal states as follows: Offer valid in the U.S. and Canada only. Expires on June 30, 2004 at 11:59 pm., pacific time. Offer subject to change without notice. *Limit one per customer. Must own the Photoshop Elements that came bundled with your product in order to install this version of Photoshop CS software.Does any version of PhotoShop Elements (i.e. one purchased from another retailer) work with this version of CS.

[cgratti]

you can always download it, but you didnt hear it from me....
LOL

[Jesper]

The Microtek deal states as follows: Offer valid in the U.S. and Canada only. Expires on June 30, 2004 at 11:59 pm., pacific time. Offer subject to change without notice. *Limit one per customer. Must own the Photoshop Elements that came bundled with your product in order to install this version of Photoshop CS software.Does any version of PhotoShop Elements (i.e. one purchased from another retailer) work with this version of CS.

In some other forum I've read that it works with any version of PS Elements 2.0 - it doesn't necessarily have to be PS Elements that was bundled with a product such as a Microtek scanner.

But I'm wondering if I can also use it outside the US, if I let someone buy it in the US for me...... :? Does Adobe at the time of activation / registration check if I'm registering it on an address in the US?

[evilenglishman]

I've been thinking of the same issue - from a UK perspective.

Currently I have my eye on the upgrade version - about 140 pounds. There seem to be plenty of earlier versions around secondhand so I was thinking of getting one of them. I understand the upgrade will work with any full previous version.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Not certain but I think it only applies to version 5 and upwards

[4walls]

...edited...

[fwhitesides]

Holy Crap,
And I thought we were getting screwed by taxes in the US.. 25%? 16%? man, what a crock for you guys across the pond.
Yeah, but they have health care for everyone.

[Jesper]

I have a 4x6 image for sale... the cost is approximately $399 USD [plus S/H]. If you would like to buy it,
you can pay me for the print and I will send it to you. This image comes with a free gift PhotoShop CS,
the Microteck upgrade version. Interested?

If you don't have Photoshop elements 2.0, we can work out a deal for that too.

If there are interested parties, let me know via PM and we can work out the shipping details.

But the Microtek offer is $299. So you want to have $100 for the 4x6 image? :?

p.s. My brother lives in the USA, so I already have someone there who could arrange it for me, *if* it works..... (I'd like to be sure before I spend a lot of money.... :roll: ).

[CyberDyneSystems]

you can always download it, but you didnt hear it from me....
LOL

I'm refraining from "pulling a mod" on this as there are a few more important lessons that can be learned.... :roll: (actually no link was offered so no harm really.. :wink: )

But,.. i have reliable sources that tell me that there are two major problems with a "downlaod" of CS.

1. There is a very popular download of CS at 150 som odd megabytes going around that is in fact the largest virus you could possibly imagine downloading! Nasty stuff,. you'll know when you've got it only by the fact that the install doesn't run..... at first..

Later it will rewrite your command com and the drive will no longer boot.

2. PSCS has a rather sifisticated "WinXP Style" registration/activation procedure. There are cracks avaialable,. BUT the word is that it is very difficult to have your "cracked" PSCS actually "stay" cracked!

When the Crack fails,. which lots of things may trigger this phenomena.. not only will you no longer be able to run PSCS,. but you also won't be able to recrack it.. and in getting "uncracked" if you are connected to the internet via "allways on" by the time you realize it is "uncracked" Adobe allready has you listed,. and has allready tweeked your pc with new stuff.. the same stuff that makes "re-cracking" quite difficult.

You may want to actually buy PSCS.. you'll be happy you did.

[msnow]

I don't know about those viruses but you should buy it, it's well worth it.

[4walls]

...edited...

[Jesper]

I don't know about those viruses but you should buy it, it's well worth it.

I don't want to use an illegal version, otherwise I wouldn't be going through all this trouble to find out where I can buy it legally without having to sell a kidney...... 8)

[Be_there]

I don't want to use an illegal version, otherwise I wouldn't be going through all this trouble to find out where I can buy it legally without having to sell a kidney...... 8)

Me neither. I can get hold of an academic version through work but the licence for that doesn't include using it at home. I think I'm going to go the upgrade route as a friend has offered me her version 6 at a reasonable price.

[evilenglishman]

2. PSCS has a rather sifisticated "WinXP Style" registration/activation procedure. There are cracks avaialable,. BUT the word is that it is very difficult to have your "cracked" PSCS actually "stay" cracked!

When the Crack fails,. which lots of things may trigger this phenomena.. not only will you no longer be able to run PSCS,. but you also won't be able to recrack it.. and in getting "uncracked" if you are connected to the internet via "allways on" by the time you realize it is "uncracked" Adobe allready has you listed,. and has allready tweeked your pc with new stuff.. the same stuff that makes "re-cracking" quite difficult.


Two points about this.
1. I know quite a few people who have been using an illegal copy and have had none of the problems mentioned above.
I am not advocating or justifying the use of illegal software, but most people with an always on connection also run a firewall which will block any access its told to block.

2. It is illegal for Adobe to gain access to anyones private computer and "tweek" it in any way.

But as you said, its best to have a legal copy for obvious reasons.

[Jesper]

I got an answer from Adobe about my question (I've translated it into English myself):

Thank you for your e-mail.

You may purchase software products in the USA and use them in Europe. Please note that the webstore and the download store in the USA do not ship to addresses in Europe. You will have to ship the products to Europe yourself or let someone ship them to you from the USA.

Please note that a product bought in the USA will not be supported in Europe. You will need to register such a product in the USA and if you need technical support, you will need to contact Adobe in the USA.

If you are a US resident at the time of purchase, then it will be possible to assign a new European serial number when you return to Europe. We will need a copy of the invoice and proof that you were living in the USA at the time of purchase, such as a copy of your rent contract, visa or something similar.

If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us.

[evilenglishman]

hmmmm, they didn't mention the activation????

[CyberDyneSystems]

2. PSCS has a rather sifisticated "WinXP Style" registration/activation procedure. There are cracks avaialable,. BUT the word is that it is very difficult to have your "cracked" PSCS actually "stay" cracked!

When the Crack fails,. which lots of things may trigger this phenomena.. not only will you no longer be able to run PSCS,. but you also won't be able to recrack it.. and in getting "uncracked" if you are connected to the internet via "allways on" by the time you realize it is "uncracked" Adobe allready has you listed,. and has allready tweeked your pc with new stuff.. the same stuff that makes "re-cracking" quite difficult.


Two points about this.
1. I know quite a few people who have been using an illegal copy and have had none of the problems mentioned above.
I am not advocating or justifying the use of illegal software, but most people with an always on connection also run a firewall which will block any access its told to block.

2. It is illegal for Adobe to gain access to anyones private computer and "tweek" it in any way.

But as you said, its best to have a legal copy for obvious reasons.

1. I don't think I said that it wouldn't stay cracked,. I think I said that it could be difficult. There are a few different cracks out there, they behave in different ways and may have different leverls of success.
However,.

...you are ight about the firewall,. I will not elaborate as I don't want this thread to be an aid to anyone running cracked software.

2. The "tweeks" I refer to are very legal,. they are part of the Adobe software that would have been installed with the illegal copy of CS,. the parts that make it "stop working" when it discovers that it's "activation" has been compromised. If it is illegal than every copy of CS and WinXP is illegal. All of this Adobe spyware is documented in the eula and you agree to it when you install,. cracked or not.

FYI My interest in this is reasonable.
I have purchased PSCS via upgrade,. as well as PS7, 6, 5, and 4. Adobe has planty of my money.

My "personal" issue is twofold.

1. I hate spyware. To me the WinXP and Adobe CS activation process is the worst kind of Spyware. We actually have to pay to install this spy ware,. at least the other crap has to sneak it's way in.

2. The hardware ramifications of the Adobe activation are a constant problem for me personally. For some reason Adobe choose to consider the addition or alteration of hard drives and partitions as hardware changes which require reactivation. I have allready had to ""reactivate" once simply because I had plugged in a back up hard drive. I am faced with no longer being able to back up my system as I see fit,. or having to deal with a serious issue with reactivation every time I want to back up my system :(

Using utilities like "Drive Image" to restore a trashe dpartition can too result in "reactivation" with no actual hardware changing.

Thus my interest in a crack that may allow me to actaully to use my hardware the way I had intended.

[msnow]

It makes me a little uncomfortable talking about cracking, hacking and spyware in this forum especially since I spend 60-70 hours a week fighting this on a professional level BUT....

There is a reason why the software vendors (Adobe, Microsoft, Sun, Cisco...pretty much all of them now) either have moved or are moving to online activation. It's the most effective way they have of blacklisting illegally generated registration keys. I might also mention that the communication is one way...you to them. If you expressly agree to it (usually via a "yes"/"no" dialogue box) nothing is downloaded and put on your computer. An example of this is when you upgrade software and you are asked if you want to download and install the new software. If you say "yes" the newer version will not work on a cracked version of the software...that's because your original key or crack was added to their database at the time of upload.

The sad reality is that these vendors lose billions of dollars each year to illegally obtained software and it is, after all, their property. I think if you stole my property I would have every right to go and get it back from you and if you agreed to let me in the door (by saying "yes" come on in) you can bet I'm going to take it.

CDS is right when he says that you agree to it when you hit "I agree" on the license agreement (EULA)...the key phrase here is YOU AGREED TO IT. If enough people felt this was wrong and didn't agree to it and didn't buy the software then I would presume this would not be an issue.

My feeling is, though, that the moral argument is in favor of the vendor whose trying to protect his intellectual property, not the liberatrian who feels their privacy is being invaded by uploading an illegal regkey#.

[MediaMagic]

My feeling is, though, that the moral argument is in favor of the vendor whose trying to protect his intellectual property, not the liberatrian who feels their privacy is being invaded by uploading an illegal regkey#.

Well, as a programmer myself who makes a living through intellectual property, I can understand the need to combat piracy. However, this being said, I think that plugging in a second drive for backup purposes should absolutely not cause the program to require ensuing activation. If this was indeed Adobe's intention, this is simply ludicrous.

How many of us have removable rackmount drives in our computers? or USB drives? I have two rackmount slots with a total of six extra drives I swap out and use for various data backup (work-code, images, video, etc). If just plugging in one of them causes Adobe to require a reactivation of Photoshop CS, that is way over the top. This is so outrageous that I'm tempted to think this has to be a logic error in the hardware survey module.

I haven't done a backup since installing CS, and man, would I have been surprised.

CDS, did this happen to you with a USB drive? or plugging into an available IDE or SATA port? Was photoshop itself copied to the backup drive? How do you have your b/u system set up?

David

[evilenglishman]

Some important facts to remember.
1. People do not read the EULA they just scroll and click okay. Be honest how many of you have read the pages and pages of legal information in those boxes??
2. There is also an issue of force involved. I.e if you don't do 'xxx' then you can't have 'zzz'.
Adobe is forcing you to activate its software. Why should you have to if you have paid out a whopping £400 for a CD that will most likely be 'old' within 12 months?
3. Despite losing "billions" to software piracy, Adobe still had massive profits last year.
4. They didn't include activation for the Mac version of CS, yet there are just as many (within proportions) using illegal copies. Why does one user have to suffer and another doesn't?

The point is this, is Photoshop worth £400 to the average home user? No, I don't think it is.
To an advertising agency, maybe.
It's about time they (and all the other software/music/movie companie$) stared to ask why piracy is so rife - if Photoshop had a proportionate pricing structure (e.g £400 for an ad agency/£100 for a home user) more people would consider buying it instead of trying to find an illegal copy.
The record industry were too slow and too stupid to realise what was going on until it was too late. They should have been at the forefront of mp3, now the same thing happens with movies.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Media Magic,.

I like you have a rackmount system.. with mulitple removable drives I like to swap in and out. @ drives are permanant,. the nirrored RAID,. one is semipermanant,. on line back up,. but I swap that one every so often to archive "Drive Image" partitions to a fourth dirve that I would not normally keep online.

I allso have a USB2 drive, and I actually have a firwire drive that is in fact rackmount... and thus swappable as well.

Not to mention the fact that since installing PSCS I have not dared to try and fire up the SCSI chain! :shock:


I Honestly don't recall which drive it is that caused the reactivation,. I think it was an IDE Rackmount... but it may have been the Firewire. In either case,. I have not been able to find a way to get XP to list the drives as removable (understandable with the IDE Rackmount,. but odd that I can't do it with the USB2 and Firwire drives)

I'd like to think that if these drives were listed as removable by XP I would not have had the issue,. but I honestly don't know.

[CyberDyneSystems]

It makes me a little uncomfortable talking about cracking, hacking and spyware in this forum especially since I spend 60-70 hours a week fighting this on a professional level BUT....



I agree.

My initial post was a mild reminder that we should not be "advocating" such behavior,. and I listed a number of specific reasons why in the case of PSCS.

To remove the specifics,. it is simply "ill advised". People ask questions on this forum looking for "sound advice" and I do not consider suggesting breaking the law "sound advice".

The further discussion that has sprung out of this I think is educational,..

...the further concerns about anti-piracy vs. usablilty are reasonable concerns.

[Jesper]

hmmmm, they didn't mention the activation????
No, but when they say it's allowed and possible to buy Adobe software in the USA and use it in Europe, I guess there also won't be a problem with activating it in Europe.

[MediaMagic]

Media Magic,.

I like you have a rackmount system.. with mulitple removable drives I like to swap in and out. @ drives are permanant,. the nirrored RAID,. one is semipermanant,. on line back up,. but I swap that one every so often to archive "Drive Image" partitions to a fourth dirve that I would not normally keep online.


I would venture a guess that swapping out one of the drives in your RAID 1 volume is the most likely cause of your activation mystery. I'm not an expert at hardware profiling. BUT, I do know that changing out one of the drives of a dynamic volume *should* have an increased effect on the overall hardware profile (as opposed to swapping a basic volume), and especially so if the dynamic volume is the system volume. (could I use the word 'volume' any more in a single paragraph?)

Also, these hardware profile modules will allow a certain number of "minor" changes, and then enough minors add up to a major. Perhaps it wasn't a single drive swap that caused the problem, but rather a culmination of swaps the profiler was tracking?

Anyhoo... I'm scheduled to do a backup later tonight.. I'm going to swap all the backup drives, etc, and see what happens. I'll change partitions and file systems and see if I can force PS into reactivation mode without touching the system OlumeVe.

I'm glad I was forewarned though, otherwise I'd have worried about system integrity if PS suddenly wanted to reactivate.

[CyberDyneSystems]

It definately WAS NOT one of the two RAID 1 drives I swapped,. they are allways there.. it was either a 160gig drive attached to the standard IDE channel.. or the 80Gig Firewire external...

Either way,.. none of the partitions were "system partitions"

[MediaMagic]

It definately WAS NOT one of the two RAID 1 drives I swapped,. they are allways there.. it was either a 160gig drive attached to the standard IDE channel.. or the 80Gig Firewire external...

Either way,.. none of the partitions were "system partitions"

So much for that idea.. That would be the only idea I could think of that would have made a modicum of sense, and even that would still be ridiculous. So far I've swapped and backed up to two of the drives with no reactivation. I have another that I need to repartition so I'll see if those changes will do it. I'm restarting PS after each change to see what happens. So far nothing unusual.

[MediaMagic]

CDS,
I've tried everything I can with disk swapping via IDE, USB2.0 and partitioning to get PS to require reactivation and nothing I have done has triggered it. Maybe I just haven't swapped them out enough times, or perhaps there something specific with your hardware.

I don't have a firewire drive housing so I couldn't experiment with that. I have the Adobe Creative Suite, which is unlikely to make a difference, but maybe somehow it does.

Adobe may already have a patch available to disable the hardware tracker. This issue has to have come up often with as many corporate users (with very diverse and complicated backup schemes).

I'll ask the guys at work if they have any knowledge of the situation or insight.

David

[Jesper]

Done! :D

My brother in the USA ordered Photoshop CS for me with the Microtek offer (http://www.adobe.com/store/products/special.jhtml?id=catMicrotek&sourcecode=112300) for $299. On the website, you have to fill in the PS Elements 2.0 serial number, and it worked also with the serial number of the PS Elements I got with my 10D (which I bought here in the Netherlands).

Great !!!!!! :D

[digidog]

I am using Photoshop Elements 2.0 that I got with my 10D now, but more and more I notice I want to do things that only the full version of Photoshop has - for example, layer masks, 16-bit editing, channels, curves.


Hi
You might want to check out a book by Richard Lynch called 'The Hidden Power of Photoshop Elements 2'. It costs about £20 from Amazon and ships with a CD which includes a whole lot of custom actions and such like and will allow you to do most of the things you've mentioned (e.g. layer masks, curves, channel separation) and some other stuff. The book is also very good and covers some detailed info. Here is a direct link to the table of contents:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0782141781/toc/ref=br_dp_toc/202-0985941-0799861
The authors website is here:
http://www.hiddenelements.com/
You can download the demo (under the 'Tools' section) which actually includes quite a lot of free functionality (e.g. layer masks)
If this is all the extra functionality you require then its a lot cheaper (and legal) than the full version of PS.

Daryl

[richard lynch]

I think this thread is addressing some important issues. I'd hope to add a little...

First, Adobe is a manufacturer who has to price their products as seen fit. That Photoshop ( http://aps8.com/pscs.html ), a professional program meant for professional use, is priced at about $650 US is probably a reflection of the glut of piracy and the high cost of maintaining the software development. I don't know if you've ever looked at the masthead, but that just lists people on the Photoshop team, not the additional support. There is a lot of overhead I can't even imagine. At the same time, I don't grudge them the money, as I have other choices...if I need PS I need it and pay for it; if I just want it because it is really good, stealing is really unjustified. I'd really like to own a Lotus, but because it costs more than my house, and is really more than I can justify, I don't go out and steal one. I have a car, and I'll have to live with it.

Second, as digidog says, there are other options which may be in line with the common budget for image editing. Adobe's own Elements ( http://aps8.com/elements.html ) can do a lot more than people think, and unjustly takes a back seat to Photoshop--perhaps too often. Of course Photoshop can do more, but unless you really, really need 16-bit support, CMYK volume production, action recording and advanced web design features (via Image Ready), chances are you may be able to get the results you need with Elements without skimping on the result. There are ways to work around a lot of what Elements is said to be 'missing'. The fact is, it is built over the Photoshop engine and can provide the same quality if you know the right techniques. Curves, Color Balance, Channels, layer masks, other masks, vector editing, action playback...it is all in there in some form. The key is more learning what to do than spending more; Photoshop is not magic, it has more tools and that really ends up meaning learning to use more options.

Lastly (for now), I am a Photoshop user of some 12+ years. I grew with the program and really shunned Elements for a while because of what I'd heard about it. When I finally started to look at Elements, I ended up learning a ton about REALLY manipulating images because I could no longer rely on Photoshop to separate me from the process. It completely changed the way I work in Photoshop as well.

My Hidden Power books (one on Elements http://aps8.com/hppe.html , and a new one on Photoshop http://aps8.com/hppscs.html ), reflect that change in perspective and style. My new perspective is that any program that supports layers and modes can really give you most of what you need to do high-level and advanced image editing. In other words, you may not need Photoshop or Elements, and can probably use PSP ( http://aps8.com/psp.html ), PhotoLine32, Ulead ( http://aps8.com/ulead.html ), GIMP or other advanced editors to achieve excellent results. It is more technique and learning your chosen tools and options than relying on the cost of a single program, no matter how powerful, well-known, and attractive. The advantage of Adobe products currently is the sheer volume of tutorial and help materials in books and on the web.

I currently use Elements daily at my regular job because I could not logically justify the use of Photoshop -- or the expense. Instead, I added a monitor, RAM and video card with the money that had been budgeted--which improved my system and output more than PSCS would have alone. Elements is NOT for every professional, but it certainly can suffice in most amateur arenas, and is worth the cost of admission. I can't blame Adobe for protecting their investment, but I can have a choice. Elements at $99 plus hidden power for $30 more gives you a lot to work with. I can also help develop tools to save you more time. For example, I just released a Mend tool that does for Elements users what Healing does in Photoshop using all native Elements functionality (see: http://aps8.com/mend.html ). Legal, less expensive, and most of what almost any user really needs.

Hope that helps!

Richard Lynch

[CyberDyneSystems]

Great post Richard!

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for dropping in! :)

I agree that Elements is too often overlooked. I was using it for a while after I had purchased the ACR plug-in not realizing my old PS 6 would not support it. The Elements disk came with my 10D and that was the first time I had used it. It is indeed a very functionla tool.

What you learn in Elements is applicable to the PS interface in most cases. And to top it off,. Adobe has an upgrade path from Elements for half the cost of the PSCS without the upgrade,. so either way,. Elements as an investment is money well spent.

[mson]

This is a good thread! First of all I do not condone piracy, but let's not paint Adobe as a saintly do no wrong company either. Adobe Charges $650 USD for Photoshop because it can, not because of piracy. If they cold charge $6,000 and still keep current customers while adding new ones, they would.

It's unfortunate that non-professional users do not have an alternative to either the full version of CS or Elements. Elements does not support RAW from my D Rebel and I REALLY like the RAW editing features in CS. On the other hand, if Adobe did have a cheap "home" version of CS they would lose money, because the pro's would just buy the cheaper version.

[digidog]

I think this thread is addressing some important issues. I'd hope to add a little...


Hi Richard
Thanks for adding your thoughts - last thing I expected! :)
While you're 'here' I thought I'd ask a quick question. Do you know how to paint in Elements so that the effect builds up with successive brush strokes. I used to use Photoshop 4 at work and in that I could paint (or dodge or whatever) using my graphics tablet and the desired effect would build up as I applied more strokes over the same area. In Elements (I don't know if its like this in the full version of the newer versions of PS) now I find that I have to lift my pen and then press down again to increase the effect. This is a bit annoying and far less intuitive. Is this a 'feature' or have I got something set up wrong?

Cheers

Daryl

[CyberDyneSystems]

It's a brush setting in PS... I can't remeber which one but by default.. the amount of any effect applied by brush is limited to a maximum as defined by a percentage setting... to have it continue to build up in value there is a setting for the brush being used....

I am afraid I am at work without acces to either PS or Elements... so I can't find the settings name exactly.. (I never use it) and I am not at all sure that Elements has this functionality in it's brushes.. but I think it does.

[Jesper]

Thanks for your posts - Richard, I already have your book "The Hidden Power of Photoshop Elements". Nice book, and the Power Tools are very useful, but still features are missing that you can't add with simple extensions to PS Elements, such as for example 16-bit editing, built-in RAW converter, more elaborate colour management support (Assign / Convert Profile).

As I wrote before, my brother, who lives in the USA, ordered the full version of Photoshop CS for me for $299, perfectly legal (I asked Adobe if it was possible to do this). :)

[digidog]

It's a brush setting in PS...

Please let me know when you find it.

Cheers

Daryl

[cgratti]

Some important facts to remember.
1. People do not read the EULA they just scroll and click okay. Be honest how many of you have read the pages and pages of legal information in those boxes??
2. There is also an issue of force involved. I.e if you don't do 'xxx' then you can't have 'zzz'.
Adobe is forcing you to activate its software. Why should you have to if you have paid out a whopping £400 for a CD that will most likely be 'old' within 12 months?
3. Despite losing "billions" to software piracy, Adobe still had massive profits last year.
4. They didn't include activation for the Mac version of CS, yet there are just as many (within proportions) using illegal copies. Why does one user have to suffer and another doesn't?

The point is this, is Photoshop worth £400 to the average home user? No, I don't think it is.
To an advertising agency, maybe.
It's about time they (and all the other software/music/movie companie$) stared to ask why piracy is so rife - if Photoshop had a proportionate pricing structure (e.g £400 for an ad agency/£100 for a home user) more people would consider buying it instead of trying to find an illegal copy.
The record industry were too slow and too stupid to realise what was going on until it was too late. They should have been at the forefront of mp3, now the same thing happens with movies.

They offer PS Elements fo rthe home user...

[MediaMagic]

CDS,
I've tried everything I can with disk swapping via IDE, USB2.0 and partitioning to get PS to require reactivation and nothing I have done has triggered it. Maybe I just haven't swapped them out enough times, or perhaps there something specific with your hardware.



Ah HA! Just got the reactivation. This particular trigger seems to be linked to using a restore point with XP Pro. When the system is restored to an earlier point, the reactivation triggers. Did it three times to verify. Didn't have a problem at all with the reactivation process, but I can see how it could be a pain in the rear under restrictive conditions. What if we didn't happen to have internet or telephone access at that moment our computer crapped and had to be restored to an earlier point? What if we were working on location or in the field and had to use a restore point ?(humor me here, there COULD be a reason to fire up a laptop with CS in the Austrailian outback sometime, right? heh). The program would be useless until such a time when net/phone access was available. Granted, we pretty much all have cell phones, but still, that's a bit overly consumer unfriendly.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Hmmm.. I had heard of the restore point issue as well. This is not what did it for me, but I had heard of this.

I have since spun up the Firewire ,. on and off,,. but not with PSCS running,. and it did not force a re-register this time. Maybe it's use to it?