Wedding Photographer Suing a Couple

[Twisted_Sister]

Here's the question, I have written into my contract that I'm the exclusive photographer at a wedding (standard stuff you've all seen). However, another pro, who was a family friend or something... showed up and started shooting.

I didn't want to interrupt the day, and the person really wasn't in my way at all, so I didn't say anything at the wedding.

Well, after the fact, the B&G tell me that the person did a great job on pictures. I think maybe they are going to pay the person some money.

What kind of breach of contract $$ damages can I sue for... hypothetically? Can I hold up their pictures as leverage?

What can I sue the couple for, and what can I sue the photographer for?

What if the photographer uses images from the wedding in their marketing materials (not my images, their own)... what recourse do I have?

I doubt I really would sue because of the bad PR, but I would like to know.

Thanks!

[coreypolis]

are you actually losing money because of this? Are they buying an album from them? If that person wasn't in your way and didn't cost you any shots, why are they choosing their images over your own?

I think suing a client over that is about the worst thing you could do for your business. You didni't approach them at the weding about it, so they didn't have the opportunity to correct it. Its a pretty given fact that people bring cameras to weddings, and in the digital age more and more will have better equipment.

If they use the images, hmm, I think you could use a legal letter to have them taken down, but not sure on that.

[Curtis N]

What can I sue the couple for, and what can I sue the photographer for?Damages, if there are any. And if you do, expect to demonstrate that you were damaged.

You haven't explained how you have been damaged. Possible loss of residual print sales would be the only thing that I can think of. Weigh that against attorney fees.

There isn't much of a case here from what you have told us so far.

[Twisted_Sister]

Thanks for the quick reply, what would you do if you found out that the other photographer posted their images on their website or marketing materials. Even though they weren't my images, I am the exclusive photographer for the event... per the agreement with the B&G.

I think they were from a different part of the country, not a local competitor.

How far would you take action against this photographer, and what could you do? Is there a case?

Thanks!

[DaveG]

I would say that you should lick your wounds and forget all about it. I don't see any damages here and it could injure your reputation in the community as being the pro photographer who "sued the uncle" for taking snapshots. That isn't what happened I know, but that's the way it'll be portrayed. Walk away with a lesson learned and their money in your pocket.

[richardj7]

Do you really have the time to spend on this? And, if you do, have you calculated the costs, and the time it will take to go to court to state your case? How much money do you expect to get out of this for the costs, and time put in?

[dsze]

I'm not sure I understand. If this was written into your contract, you should have mentioned something to whomever signed that contract as soon as you noticed another photographer at this wedding. You should have let them take care of it and it if continued anyway, pack up and walk out. ...paid. If it was just uncle bob snapping away...then who cares. More than likely his images should just make yours look better anyway.

[TheSteveMadden]

This is a good example, IMO, of why this clause should not be in a contract. If it's ever strictly enforced, it has a good chance of hurting a businesses reputation far worse than any potential loss of sales. There's really no way to enforce this clause without looking like an insecure unreasonable photographer - even if that's NOT what you are.

I feel a simple "others may snap pics but must not interfere" clause is enforceable and reasonable for keeping Uncle Bob the Pro from ruining a job I've been hired and paid to do.

My advice... let it go.

[IndyJeff]

First of all before you go getting your panties all in a wad, and before you go see an attorney you need to answer a couple of questions to yourself.

1. How were you damaged?

2. What steps were taken to prevent the damage from occuring on your part?

3. How much, if any money did you lose due to this other photographer?

4. Were you paid in full as per your agreement with the B&G?

If you answered yes to question number 4 then for get about it.

Exclusive clauses in contracts aren't really worth the paper they are printed on. I have yet to see one which will stand up in court.

[Lav]

I hope I dont make too many enemies with my first post, but I'd just like to describe a similar situation that happened to me but from the "other guys" point of view.

Im not a professional photographer and have never charged for any photography services so lets just get that cleared up. However it is a hobby of mine and when i attaended a good friends wedding recently I took along my camera as requested by my friend the bride. She did tell me that she was paying a professional photographer. The pro though did not have a clue when taking the job that I was going to be there with my gear.

Heres how it panned out. We get to the wedding I start getting set up for what I wanted to do with my shots when the wedding is all happening Im getting some good shots the pro is getting obviously some good shots as he seemed pretty happy but within about 2 minutes he comes over to me and says "are you getting payed as well?" I say "no Im one of the brides friends" He says "How do you like your new 400D?" I say "its ok but a bit hard to hold onto"

Anyway to cut a long story short this guy showed me a lot that day and he handled it really well and showed no sign of being intimidated by me, made room for each other and even gave me some pointers.

Maybe the problem wasnt that that guy you speak of was there but instead your lack of ability to communicate and take control of the situation.

And yes I would post my pics of that wedding on my site too, why not I took them.......

[Jon, The Elder]

I shoot in a totally different venue, but the situation does arise occasionally. When I see someone with 'pro equipment' and they look like they know what they are doing, I always approach them and get their "status" for the occasion. It clears the air very quickly and generally works quite well.

If there is a potential conflict, I refer them to the organization leader and get a determination fast.

It is always a communication snag as opposed to something written on paper.

After I once had decided to walk off a shoot to resolve a dispute, the 300 members soon straightened out the committee as to their wishes for my exclusivity and no problems since.

[IndyJeff]

John I ran into a situation once where I was hired to shoot a kid playing softball. When I got there I met up with the parent who was paying me. The game started and I was shooting away when some guy comes over to ask which kid was mine. When I told him I had no kids on the field he asked what I was doing shooting this game then. I replied I was hired to do it. At that point he kind of went ballistic on me, telling me how he had the "EXCLUSIVE" contract to shoot these games. Then shoot em, it won't bother me. I then told him I was there at the request of one players parents and that was all I was shooting.
Well then it started to get ugly. The guy stomps off and comes back with the tourney director. He tells me to quit shooting or he is going to call the police. I offered my cell phone for him to use. He huffed and said we would see.
Well about 20 minutes later I see a cop car pull up in the parking area. Sure enough he comes right over to where I am and here comes the director, the photographer and some lady. They come up and the cop asks me if he can talk to me. I complied but requested that we get back away from the dugout area and crowd.
So we walk about 50 feet away and the cop begins to question me. I explain I have been hired by 1 players parents to shoot her game. Then the other photographer jumps in and lets the cop know that he has an exclusive contract, the director confirms this. The director announces he wants me removed from the premises immediately.
The cop kind of looks at him and says, in a shut the hell up tone, "I am talking to him sir."

Well it was just about this time that Geri, the kids mom comes over. "Is there a problem Jeff?" Before I can explain anything, the director and photographer both tell her I can't do what I am doing. She smiles and says "Oh really?" and turns and walks away. About 30 seconds later she comes back with her husband and the cop tells them to return to their seats. This is where it got real good. The dad, Steven, looks at the cop, then at me and says, "Jeff I think you might need an attorney. Would you like me to represent you in this matter? Kind of floored me because I didn't know he was a lawyer. The director said, "What are you some kind of lawyer?" To which Steven answered "Yes, I am and better than that, I am his attorney."

He then began to question the cop as to why I wasn't allowed to preform the task for which I had been paid to do. When the director said that they hired the other guy just for that reason Steven said fine but we hired this guy just for us. He then asked to see in the registration contract where it said no one was allowed to take any photos except this other guy. The director stammered a bit and Steven reminded him that the exclusive contract of which he speaks is between the tourney and the photographer and has nothing to do with me, or any of the players in this tourney. Plain and simple it means the tourney can't hire another photographer for this tourney.

He then turns to the cop and asks him to remove the director and other photographer from the area as they are hindering my ability to job the job which he has paid me to do. So the cop tells them that I can shoot that one player and if he gets anymore calls to this park today, someone is going to jail and it probably won't be me or Steven. I go back to shooting and Steven goes back to his seat.

[Curtis N]

I love this. :D He tells me to quit shooting or he is going to call the police. I offered my cell phone for him to use.
Great story, Jeff!

[karensimmons]

What can I sue for. The battle cry of the litigious American.

So say you sue your client and win. Then what?

Do you think that they're just going to sit there and not tell anyone? Or do you think they're going to tell everyone they can, as loud as they can, that "Twisted Sister" sued them over a couple hundred $$ in reprints?

Yeah. And when no one books you becuase you have the reputation of the photographer who sues clients, then who will you sue?

Karen
(wow - this was my 100th post)

[Maureen Souza]

At that point he kind of went ballistic on me, telling me how he had the "EXCLUSIVE" contract to shoot these games.

Some people think they own the whole world, don't they? Sheeeesh!

[dsze]

Great story Jeff. Thats pretty funny. I actually did some shooting for a family of lawyers recently too and really felt a little funny handing them my contract to sign.

I can totally understand that an uncle bob or another professional at something like a wedding could really slow the paid photog down and also possibly interfere with lighting, wireless flashes, etc.... BUT if it wasn't a problem on the wedding day that you were willing to say something about THEN.... I don't think you can/should make a problem of it AFTER the wedding day is over. It's done.

Personally, if it were a situation where my shots were REPEATEDLY being hindered, slowed down, prevented on the wedding day, then I would mention it to the bride/groom right then. If I was able to deal with it, then I would just grin and keep shooting... because 1. as others have said, its not worth the bad publicity and 2. more than likely uncle Bob's shots are going to do nothing more than make my shots look even better.

[coreypolis]

If I go as a guest to a wedding, usually they ask a head of time for me to take some pics.

I understand from being in the pros position that someone else can easily distract the couple, so I usually just keep the 70-200 on, no flash, and hang out in different areas and don't say anything to the couple to distract them. I get to catch them PJ style with ambient lighting while the pro usually sets up formal posed shots and flashes the hell out of them. I think its a win win for everyone as long as the pro doesn't get theri panties in a wad, which hasn't happened to date. I have some ask why I didn't photograph the whole thing, but no one that asked me to stop/leave/change

[TheSteveMadden]

^^^ From now on, we all need to use "Uncle Corey" instead of Uncle Bob ;)

[KoiBoy]

WOW Jeff,

your sure lucky that the husband was an attorney.. and that was some story. yeah, it sucks sometimes when the "PRO" camera guy thinks he own's the whole dan world. most of them were hired to shoot for someone particularly and has nothing to do with you. either your there at a place shooting pictures for yourself or from someone who hired you. but there are always those camera pro's who think you can't shoot cuz they were hire to shoot and basically didn't want to see your pictures better then their's on a magazine/ad/website.

i guess i would do the same,i would say "i was hire to shoot for someone, just like your hire to shoot for someone, if you were hired to shoot for mr.x, well i was hired to shoot for mrs. z." we have our jobs to do, so lets just enjoy and shoot it." (only if life was that simple :)

back to the topic.........

as for the wedding photographer suing?.. i wouldn't do that... just makes you look really bad and probably word would fly fast in your city/town and mostly won't get hire much if any. unless you did talk to the other camera guy and just talk friendly to see what he is up to for the wedding couple and you can explain what your role was in this also so that both of you will understand where each of you stand during the wedding shoots. if the B&G hire you and hire a good friend, they most likely wanted shoot that could have been missed by you, or that they just want alot of pictures of different styles from both of you photographer's. :)

if your getting paid by them.. then there wasn't anything personal that the B&G did. they like you, but don't make them hate you, and then the whole town will know how you do your work.

[Technophile]

i attended my friend's wedding last summer, where he hired a professional photographer. i came along with my rebel xt and kit lens. the hired woman had no problems with me taking pictures, or when another guy borrowed my camera to take some pics, since i was in the wedding. i would even get some shots when everyone was all posed for the hired woman, and she never had a problem with that. she showed the other guy how to use my camera a little bit too.

i would recommend you dont sue for this. no offense, but it would make you look like a sue-happy jerk, to be honest. i mean think about it...sueing a couple just after their marriage, when no significant damages appear to have been done? i mean come on, forget about it. i wouldnt want that kind of reputation if i was a wedding photographer.

[TeeJay]

Coming in fairly late-on here.... but isn't it perfectly possible that IF the arrangement was that all reprints were sold via the paid tog's web-site, then this other photog putting his pics on his web-site and selling them (or even giving them away) could potentialy be worth a small fortune in lost revenue to the original paid tog?

Just a thought.

TJ

[SuzyView]

This happens, unfortunately. I was hired by my niece to shoot her wedding. Then the groom's parents had a long time friend who was a pro volunteer to do the wedding at his cost, which was very reasonable. I was at first very upset because I spent about $800 just to attend the wedding and the work was the gift for my niece, but then, my better nature came through. I let the man shoot away and I stayed in the background. The B&G were a little young and not very good at communicating so I knew it was a misunderstanding and not intentional. The other pro's pictures turned out beautiful, and I was not the least big jealous.

But your situation is not a loss. If the couple gives you full payment, that is great. If they complain, and don't pay you, then I'd definitely take them to court. As for the other photographer, ignore it. Your name is not ruined and you didn't lose a customer. If anything, you've learned that the next time this happens, give everyone your card and smile! Write a note to the couple saying, "I hope you like the pictures I took. I was a little upset that there was another photographer present, but he was really good about staying out of my way, which I appreciated. I hope you received all the wonderful pictures of your blessed event and I also hope you have many years of beautiful pictures together. I will be around if you would like a portrait next year" :)

[transcend]

Suuing your client for something this trivial is not exactly great business sense now is it? As long as you get paid what you are due, then you probably will not have a legal leg to stand on, you will also get a reputation as an insolent jerk pretty quickly.

[LBaldwin]

John I ran into a situation once where I was hired to shoot a kid playing softball. When I got there I met up with the parent who was paying me. The game started and I was shooting away when some guy comes over to ask which kid was mine. When I told him I had no kids on the field he asked what I was doing shooting this game then. I replied I was hired to do it. At that point he kind of went ballistic on me, telling me how he had the "EXCLUSIVE" contract to shoot these games. Then shoot em, it won't bother me. I then told him I was there at the request of one players parents and that was all I was shooting.
Well then it started to get ugly. The guy stomps off and comes back with the tourney director. He tells me to quit shooting or he is going to call the police. I offered my cell phone for him to use. He huffed and said we would see.
Well about 20 minutes later I see a cop car pull up in the parking area. Sure enough he comes right over to where I am and here comes the director, the photographer and some lady. They come up and the cop asks me if he can talk to me. I complied but requested that we get back away from the dugout area and crowd.
So we walk about 50 feet away and the cop begins to question me. I explain I have been hired by 1 players parents to shoot her game. Then the other photographer jumps in and lets the cop know that he has an exclusive contract, the director confirms this. The director announces he wants me removed from the premises immediately.
The cop kind of looks at him and says, in a shut the hell up tone, "I am talking to him sir."

Well it was just about this time that Geri, the kids mom comes over. "Is there a problem Jeff?" Before I can explain anything, the director and photographer both tell her I can't do what I am doing. She smiles and says "Oh really?" and turns and walks away. About 30 seconds later she comes back with her husband and the cop tells them to return to their seats. This is where it got real good. The dad, Steven, looks at the cop, then at me and says, "Jeff I think you might need an attorney. Would you like me to represent you in this matter? Kind of floored me because I didn't know he was a lawyer. The director said, "What are you some kind of lawyer?" To which Steven answered "Yes, I am and better than that, I am his attorney."

He then began to question the cop as to why I wasn't allowed to preform the task for which I had been paid to do. When the director said that they hired the other guy just for that reason Steven said fine but we hired this guy just for us. He then asked to see in the registration contract where it said no one was allowed to take any photos except this other guy. The director stammered a bit and Steven reminded him that the exclusive contract of which he speaks is between the tourney and the photographer and has nothing to do with me, or any of the players in this tourney. Plain and simple it means the tourney can't hire another photographer for this tourney.

He then turns to the cop and asks him to remove the director and other photographer from the area as they are hindering my ability to job the job which he has paid me to do. So the cop tells them that I can shoot that one player and if he gets anymore calls to this park today, someone is going to jail and it probably won't be me or Steven. I go back to shooting and Steven goes back to his seat.

Could I please have permission to print and frame this?

Please?

Les

[LBaldwin]

Sorry Gang, But I once again I take a different tack. If you have a CONTRACT signed and agreed to, then that is that. Having been sued (over a wedding) and sued, over a wedding, your rep really does not matter unless you are in a small community.

I use an exclusive contract too. Unless it is worked out prior to the shoot I do not allow anyone with PRO gear to follow me around and essentially make dupes of my images.

I do not give away CD's and I don't give away images I create (poses moments etc).

Now if I see another photog show I don't turn into instant A$$hole either. I explain to them in a firm way that I am working under a contract with the B&G. I may/will ask the B&G if they want him to shoot candids, as long as that does not cut into my work and my income than I am usually cool about it. But I can't tell you the number of times I have had a friend jump up in front of me in the aisle so they could get their shot. And that boys and girls frosts my gibbles!!! Each time that happens you are in danger of missing a shot and that can constitute a broken contract!! This is the real reason for the clause, not income.

I did my brothers wedding this year at a beautiful golf course in Florida and I took time off of my schedule and spent $$$$$$ to do it for him only to have some video weenie jump into all my shots. He was paid, but did not want to attend the rehersal. So he had no idea of the layout for the nuptials. We nearly came to blows when he asked about my wedding experience and how come I moved his gear ( I guess this should be a whole other post).

So should you sue? If you lost income, yes but only if you said something at the wedding. If you held your tongue then you will lose becuase you failed to enforce your own contract at the time of the wedding, when it counted.

Les

[Croasdail]

OP... don't sue. Unfortunately the right time, like said above, would have been to have addressed this was when you first saw it. Second, I don't like the idea of exclusive photography. I understand why it is uesd, but I am a competitive person and I would rather win business because I won it, not because I locked someone else out with a contract. This was a private event though, so your contract will likely hold up. Good luck how ever you decide to deal with it. You could try billie-bobs approach... just call the other photographer and duke it out with them. Yeah... that sounds like a great idea....

[cdifoto]

I was hoping that this little story would have a happy ending, but since you are still free to post here I guess it was just not meant to be. :rolleyes:

I was looking for that special title too! :)

As far as my own "exclusive photographer you can't shoot" experience, I had one attempt to kick me off of a race track when I refused to shoot where and when and how he said I should shoot. He didn't hire me...in fact no one had. The track owners asked me to shoot. When he told me to pack my things and leave, I said "Oh congratulations! I didn't know you took part ownership of the track!" :)

As for the OP....when you sound so sue-habby you come across as someone I wouldn't even refer to my worst enemies.

[basroil]

He then began to question the cop as to why I wasn't allowed to preform the task for which I had been paid to do.

good story, shows why it's best to be on good terms with laywers;)
usually exclusivity is not all that great. though i have not had legal problems with this, i have had times when i had to barge into another's "turf" because they where not producing images up to par (in sports photos for a small paper, we where running low on useable images and the guy assigned went less than half the time, and the other half very likely he had less than one useable photo). the other photog gave me **** for a while (he wanted credit, not even a staff photographer and was not on payroll), but we got the photos needed to run the paper. just think of anyone else as a backup incase your equipment fails or you just have a horrible day (happens to anyone at any time, hopefully on days you aren't working). in the end, the customer is paying for a service, not a product. suing a customer is sort of like a waiter pouring hotsauce on a customer because they didn't ask for an appetizer. just keep that couple on a blacklist and give them a low priority if they ever ask for something similar (unless they outline exactly what they will order beforehand, and it happens to strike your fancy).

[NickSimcheck]

John I ran into a situation once where I was hired to shoot a kid playing softball. When I got there I met up with the parent who was paying me. The game started and I was shooting away when some guy comes over to ask which kid was mine. When I told him I had no kids on the field he asked what I was doing shooting this game then. I replied I was hired to do it. At that point he kind of went ballistic on me, telling me how he had the "EXCLUSIVE" contract to shoot these games. Then shoot em, it won't bother me. I then told him I was there at the request of one players parents and that was all I was shooting.
Well then it started to get ugly. The guy stomps off and comes back with the tourney director. He tells me to quit shooting or he is going to call the police. I offered my cell phone for him to use. He huffed and said we would see.
Well about 20 minutes later I see a cop car pull up in the parking area. Sure enough he comes right over to where I am and here comes the director, the photographer and some lady. They come up and the cop asks me if he can talk to me. I complied but requested that we get back away from the dugout area and crowd.
So we walk about 50 feet away and the cop begins to question me. I explain I have been hired by 1 players parents to shoot her game. Then the other photographer jumps in and lets the cop know that he has an exclusive contract, the director confirms this. The director announces he wants me removed from the premises immediately.
The cop kind of looks at him and says, in a shut the hell up tone, "I am talking to him sir."

Well it was just about this time that Geri, the kids mom comes over. "Is there a problem Jeff?" Before I can explain anything, the director and photographer both tell her I can't do what I am doing. She smiles and says "Oh really?" and turns and walks away. About 30 seconds later she comes back with her husband and the cop tells them to return to their seats. This is where it got real good. The dad, Steven, looks at the cop, then at me and says, "Jeff I think you might need an attorney. Would you like me to represent you in this matter? Kind of floored me because I didn't know he was a lawyer. The director said, "What are you some kind of lawyer?" To which Steven answered "Yes, I am and better than that, I am his attorney."

He then began to question the cop as to why I wasn't allowed to preform the task for which I had been paid to do. When the director said that they hired the other guy just for that reason Steven said fine but we hired this guy just for us. He then asked to see in the registration contract where it said no one was allowed to take any photos except this other guy. The director stammered a bit and Steven reminded him that the exclusive contract of which he speaks is between the tourney and the photographer and has nothing to do with me, or any of the players in this tourney. Plain and simple it means the tourney can't hire another photographer for this tourney.

He then turns to the cop and asks him to remove the director and other photographer from the area as they are hindering my ability to job the job which he has paid me to do. So the cop tells them that I can shoot that one player and if he gets anymore calls to this park today, someone is going to jail and it probably won't be me or Steven. I go back to shooting and Steven goes back to his seat.


Compelling story Jeff, mind if I modify it and inject my name then tell the story as if it happened to me?

I'll fax over the licensing agreement in a minute.

[TeeJay]

Compelling story Jeff, mind if I modify it and inject my name then tell the story as if it happened to me?

I'll fax over the licensing agreement in a minute.

? :confused:

[nicksan]

If I was asked by my best friend to take some pics of his wedding, I would bring my 5D, 24-105 and 70-200. Not sure if that constitutes pro gear. I'm not a pro. But I like taking good pictures.

So if I were to carry this gear to the wedding, should I expect some sort of confrontation? (Hopfulley not with Billy Bob!)

If people were all lined up for a group shot, I think I might be tempted to take that too since it's a nice moment.

Now I'm not going to put these online and try to make a buck with them. I will probably give them to the B & G as a gift, and maybe send pics via Email, etc.


Everything's cool right?


I have to agree about the communication part, verbal, not with fists.

Anybody who feels good about beating somebody up at a hockey game and not feel a little remorse perhaps has some issues.

Anyways, not sure if I learned anything here except that people are just strange...

[Julio]

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/Canonista/motivator5916751.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Billie Bob]

I hope things work out well for you man. Taking shots at the game is a ton of fun.

Good luck!

[SuzyView]

Nick, if I were you, I would definitely talk to the photographer first. Don't even bring in your gear. If you are honest and don't interfere and let the photographer know you are not going to post or sell the shots, only to give to the B&G for fun, it will be a lot easier all the way around. The bride's family takes care of the weddings here in the US and sometimes can be very territorial. You'll need to clear it or else, you can have sparks. Good luck!

[Palendrone]

If I was asked by my best friend to take some pics of his wedding, I would bring my 5D, 24-105 and 70-200. Not sure if that constitutes pro gear. I'm not a pro. But I like taking good pictures.

So if I were to carry this gear to the wedding, should I expect some sort of confrontation? (Hopfulley not with Billy Bob!)

If people were all lined up for a group shot, I think I might be tempted to take that too since it's a nice moment.

Now I'm not going to put these online and try to make a buck with them. I will probably give them to the B & G as a gift, and maybe send pics via Email, etc.


Everything's cool right?


I have to agree about the communication part, verbal, not with fists.

Anybody who feels good about beating somebody up at a hockey game and not feel a little remorse perhaps has some issues.

Anyways, not sure if I learned anything here except that people are just strange...

Very similar instance here and have done several times in the past, now this year due to a great redundancy package I treated myself to some new gear, can't use it and can only try...

The last wedding I went to just after Christmas made me howl laughing as the minister of this beautiful little church was very upfront that no video allowed what so ever and photographs from relatives and friends would be allowed once the payed tog had done there part in the church, hence not during the ceremony. The Wedding ceremony ends and everyone is called up for the group shots in the church (not your average british wedding but still very nice!!!). The tog is then messing around a little and all the family and friends are wanting to take a pics of the lovely couple in a great surrounding.

At this point none of the people waiting for a snap would say anything so I marched on up and said to the main tog "could I ask when it would be possible to be able to get a picture of the B&G please?", to get a very nasty "There is no photography to take place inside the church apart from me and my assistant! Only Proffessional Photographers are allowed to shoot in here!!!"...

I walked away and put my camera back in its bag and just left it alone. I so wanted to say after the pro comment she gave me, "do I look like i'm holding a 1D becuase it matches my glasses!" (not that I am a pro and as stated before its something I always wanted instead of a need!) pretty much just to wipe the smug grin from her peeky little chops... I almost felt like asking here to make me sign a model release form (which I had with me incase she had none!!!) when she was shooting images of my and my better half.

My point here is when someone who is not going to get in the way wanting a picture that they took of that special occasion, is it really worth getting all up tight as many other people here have been taught a few things by wedding togs which is great.

In the instance of sueing your clients I think this is going a little far tbh - not only will you jeopardise your chances of getting reprint requests but also your career under the name your operating at the minute. Hope they don't read your message here either, who knows if the other guy is a member??????

[ckphoto]

The last wedding I attended as a guest, I took my camera, dRebel at the time. Hubby & I talked to the photographer a long time, he was very nice. How he got in the business, lighting stuff, etc... Never would I think of interfering with his set-ups etc... When he had all the siblings together, he invited everyone to take their own shots, with his lights. He knew these siblings didn't get together often, and some would want a snapshot.

[SuzyView]

I've confronted some wonderful photographers before and they were only too happy to let me shoot, even with my 20D and 24-70L. I've shot national events where flash was not allowed, but little P&S came out all over the place. At churches, I can see why they don't allow just anyone to shoot, the flash can cause accidents if someone is walking around. But really, for such a special occasion, the more pictures to choose from, the better. Just play by the rules and people won't get upset.

[sumozebra]

In my opinion, as said before, sueing them could be the worst move you can make. If u didn't loose any shots or money, then why go to that length? As said, with this day and age, I go to my friends weddings with my DSLR and my canon L lens. Does that breach the contract? no. They may be family friends there taking their photos. They MAY be professionals, or not. But in any case, they might be going there as their friend status, and there's nothing wrong with

Further more, even if the guy was using the photos he took for his website, there's nothing you can do about it. Those were HIS/HER photo that they took. What's even more dangerous, is if you peeve the couple off, they can give u some very nasty rep burning, and in turn sue YOU if you ever posted the photos onto your own site for publicity since you do not have a model release form from them *and I highly doubt you do*

Best to just suck it up, and prepare for the future. *though i'm very against the "exclusive photographer" idea... the age of that's gone in my opinion

[pagnamenta]

It seems there's very little to sue for. Yes you have "sole rights" to shoot the wedding but that doesn't mean that the bride has to buy your photos. I understand a lot of money comes from making prints, etc. but the other photographer wasn't a professional so you're going to have a hard time finding a judge to give you any remedy.

[nicksan]

I think that's the way it should be. Sounds like a nice professional.

I understand that the pro is there to do the job and make money, and if another person was to take the piece of the pie, I can understand how the pro can get upset.

But apparenlty there are some who don't feel as "paranoid"...perhaps they are confident in their skills and they don't need to deal with all this stuff.

I'm not a pro, but I encounter this type of behaviour all the time...and it's usually from insecurity and not being sure of yourself.

Usually the case when I am behaving all paranoid...!


The last wedding I attended as a guest, I took my camera, dRebel at the time. Hubby & I talked to the photographer a long time, he was very nice. How he got in the business, lighting stuff, etc... Never would I think of interfering with his set-ups etc... When he had all the siblings together, he invited everyone to take their own shots, with his lights. He knew these siblings didn't get together often, and some would want a snapshot.

[Eric]

Kind of along the same lines as this thread, sorry to change the subject, but....
I was at a wedding not too long ago and now the photographer has pictures of me posted on his website (i'm not the B or G) I never signed any release or anything. Is this standard practice? I wouldn't take any legal action or anything just curious.

[dsze]

Kind of along the same lines as this thread, sorry to change the subject, but....
I was at a wedding not too long ago and now the photographer has pictures of me posted on his website (i'm not the B or G) I never signed any release or anything. Is this standard practice? I wouldn't take any legal action or anything just curious.

My B&G's all sign something stating that they know I will be taking photos of persons at their wedding other than themselves and they permit me to do this as part capturing their wedding day. I realize this doesn't really hold up in court, but a wedding would be considered a public place right? If you go to a wedding, I would think that you should assume that there is a good chance you'll be in a photograph or 2.

Does anyone here actually get model releases from guests/wedding party? Its probably a great idea, but not very realistic.

[TeeJay]

....I would think that you should assume that there is a good chance you'll be in a photograph or 2.

Does anyone here actually get model releases from guests/wedding party? Its probably a great idea, but not very realistic.

I think you are pretty much spot on with your first observation. Anyone attending a wedding has a fairly high chance of appearing in a photo at some stage.

On your second point, I very much douibt it - for the exact same reasons as your first point!

TJ

[pagnamenta]

I'm not a pro photographer but I understand a majority of the legal issues. It reallys boils down to what you have in the contract. The B & G can't allow for a photographer to publish photos of others to make a profit. Posting photos on a website doesn't make a profit for the photographer so there is no reason he needs to take them off.

That said, weddings are generally not public events. The only place I can think a weddign would be public is in a church or outside on the way to the reception, limo, etc. While it is expected that you are photographed at a wedding, It seems to me the photographer has the rights to shoot the wedding. If he wants to use an image to make a profit he needs a release.

It's easier to settle out of court and it takes a lot less time. I haven't heard of any instances around my area of photog suing clients. I worked at a photo store and we didn't print images for a B&G because they didn't have a release, the photog bought us all lunch. But other than that, its pretty quiet.

[dsze]

Come to think of it, I actually carry 2 model releases in my car at all times, one for adults and one for minors. They are just 1 page releases that I had good intentions for, but have actually never used one. Its probably a good habit to get into (passing them out when I'm shooting) ....but not so practical.

[marian]

Twisted Sister,

Did you ever walk up to that other "pro" and talk to him? (One pro "should" respect another pro's rights. )

A photog that I knew almost 18 years ago, decided to go after another couple in court. The word got out on him and his business "died!" (No one really wants to hire a photographer, that starts suing his customers.)

If you got paid in full for what you did, then okay. You mentioned that his pictures were good, so "how were yours?"

What do you do in church when you see someone with a digital SLR that's better than yours? Do you halt the ceremony and tell that person to put away the camera? A lot of tough decisions to make on a wedding day!

You only posted twice, so-o-o-o?

[Palendrone]

What do you do in church when you see someone with a digital SLR that's better than yours? Do you halt the ceremony and tell that person to put away the camera?
ROFL!!!! See my previous post... A glancing look I had when I asked the main tog a question almost summed your line above up!!! I think looking back on this for the foreseeable future will always make me chuckle.


You only posted twice, so-o-o-o?

One can only presume that information in response to the initial post has been read and acted upon accordingly, and possbily decided to depart this fantastic community until more ethical advice is required...

I would however like to see more of this person around though.

[michael_]

John I ran into a situation once where I was hired to shoot a kid playing softball. When I got there I met up with the parent who was paying me. The game started and I was shooting away when some guy comes over to ask which kid was mine. When I told him I had no kids on the field he asked what I was doing shooting this game then. I replied I was hired to do it. At that point he kind of went ballistic on me, telling me how he had the "EXCLUSIVE" contract to shoot these games. Then shoot em, it won't bother me. I then told him I was there at the request of one players parents and that was all I was shooting.
Well then it started to get ugly. The guy stomps off and comes back with the tourney director. He tells me to quit shooting or he is going to call the police. I offered my cell phone for him to use. He huffed and said we would see.
Well about 20 minutes later I see a cop car pull up in the parking area. Sure enough he comes right over to where I am and here comes the director, the photographer and some lady. They come up and the cop asks me if he can talk to me. I complied but requested that we get back away from the dugout area and crowd.
So we walk about 50 feet away and the cop begins to question me. I explain I have been hired by 1 players parents to shoot her game. Then the other photographer jumps in and lets the cop know that he has an exclusive contract, the director confirms this. The director announces he wants me removed from the premises immediately.
The cop kind of looks at him and says, in a shut the hell up tone, "I am talking to him sir."

Well it was just about this time that Geri, the kids mom comes over. "Is there a problem Jeff?" Before I can explain anything, the director and photographer both tell her I can't do what I am doing. She smiles and says "Oh really?" and turns and walks away. About 30 seconds later she comes back with her husband and the cop tells them to return to their seats. This is where it got real good. The dad, Steven, looks at the cop, then at me and says, "Jeff I think you might need an attorney. Would you like me to represent you in this matter? Kind of floored me because I didn't know he was a lawyer. The director said, "What are you some kind of lawyer?" To which Steven answered "Yes, I am and better than that, I am his attorney."

He then began to question the cop as to why I wasn't allowed to preform the task for which I had been paid to do. When the director said that they hired the other guy just for that reason Steven said fine but we hired this guy just for us. He then asked to see in the registration contract where it said no one was allowed to take any photos except this other guy. The director stammered a bit and Steven reminded him that the exclusive contract of which he speaks is between the tourney and the photographer and has nothing to do with me, or any of the players in this tourney. Plain and simple it means the tourney can't hire another photographer for this tourney.

He then turns to the cop and asks him to remove the director and other photographer from the area as they are hindering my ability to job the job which he has paid me to do. So the cop tells them that I can shoot that one player and if he gets anymore calls to this park today, someone is going to jail and it probably won't be me or Steven. I go back to shooting and Steven goes back to his seat.

haha best story ever!!!!

[Twisted_Sister]

Thanks!

To all, I actually was not the photographer suing the couple. Please forgive my slight deception.

I believe that the photographer may be a member of this board... so I decided to put the "heat" on myself, instead of risking upsetting someone.

Basically, everything you folks said validated my reasoning before posting. I thought it was ridiculous for the photographer to freak out on the couple AFTER the event.

Grossly unprofessional - IMO! Especially since the hired photographer went up the couple DURING THE EVENT and made compliments about the guest to them... that's right... compliments.

For those you think it may be an ego thing, yeah the "guest's" pictures were killer. Judging by the hired photographers portfolio ( I haven't seen the actual event yet, just examples of their other work)... there is a high likelihood that the guest pictures upstaged the hired pro. However, the guest only took a few hundred pictures... no formals, no getting ready, etc.

It's also not to say that the hired pro's work is poor, it's actually pretty good. Just that the guest is at a whole other level in the industry.

Oh, and no flash was used during the ceremony. Also, the guest was never in the hired photographer's way... never.

Needless to say the couple has gone under tremendous amount of stress over this... just the mere threat of a lawsuit (whether justified /realistic or not) is legal defense fees that a newlywed couple does not have.

So if you are this pro, know a few things:

1) your work is great -really
2) the guest is not selling anything to the B&G
3) don't sue your clients over this, it's just not worth it.
4) even mentioning suing them is a bad idea. I have plenty of B&Gs who rip me off on copyrights (scanning and reprinting)... this is real $$ loss. However, it's just not worth the negative word of mouth to threaten them. Word of mouth is everything in this business.

I plan on contributing a bit to this forum on other stuff as well. So thanks everyone for their feedback on this!

[Palendrone]

I plan on contributing a bit to this forum on other stuff as well. So thanks everyone for their feedback on this!

Great ! Apologies for my comment above...

This aside you state some really great points and that really ought to be the end of the topic. One of the most enjoyable threads I have seen in a long while though I hasten to add.

[Tim S]

I v'e only shot (paid) about 7 weddings but I've never had a problem with someone else taking photos while I'm the paid photog. When doing my group shots I will anounce how many shots I'm going to take then step aside so family, friends or whoever can take their shots. As long as it's not excessive, this shouldn't be a propblem. After all it is supposed to be a once in a lifetime experience-why add stress to the couple's day.