Can someone explain "fill flash" to me?

[franklinn]

I looked through a couple threads on "fill flash" -- one thread including photographs of people's "fill flash" shots, and the other was TMRdesign's cool "fill flash" thread with his new flash unit.

However, neither threads explained what "fill flash" is exactly. Sorry to sound so novice but...well, I'm totally novice at all of this still, lol. I was holding off from buying a flash, since I want to invest my money into a solid tripod first (a bogen/manfrotto), but even still I do want to pick up a flash soon afterwards.

So, can someone explain what this "fill flash" technique is? And where I can learn more about using a flash both indoors and outdoors.

TIA! :D

[20Duser]

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=264244&highlight=fill+flash

Have a look at this link it might help you

Just read post again. Read this

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html#fillflash

[lostdoggy]

Ask the name implies to fill with light. Usually in situation where a section is not well lite as the rest. Ie, using fill flash to light a fg subject where the bg is better lite. Usually Tv is higher then the maximum sync speed necessary to properly exposethe BG but toohigh to properly exposue the subject in the fg therefore necesitate to fill it with a flash.

[franklinn]

thanks for the response, and thanks for the links 20duser

next time i'll point my own direction to the search button! :)

[René Damkot]

Fill as in 'fill in the shadows' I think. (at least that's where the Dutch naming 'invulflits' comes from). This as opposed to the flash being the 'main light' source.

@Lostdoggy: you might want to reword "Usually Tv is higher then the maximum sync speed necessary to properly exposethe BG but too high to properly exposue the subject" to " (slower then max sync., and) appropriate to illuminate the BG, but too fast to properly expose the subject"... to avoid confusion. If that is not what you meant, then I'm lost to what you did mean ;)

[MDJAK]

It's been said that pictures speak louder than words:

No flash on a dull, overcast, rainy day, my daughter standing on a small terrace of an Inn in N.H.

http://www.pbase.com/mdjak/image/73211857.jpg

Same shot, little closer, with fill flash. Notice background stays practically the same, but subject now has catchlights in eyes and is generally more appealing.
http://www.pbase.com/mdjak/image/73211858.jpg

What'd ya think?

[canonshooter4life]

Am I right that all canon digital cameras auto reduce fill flash?? and you can dial in FEC on top of that if you have a speedlight...

.

[Mark_Cohran]

Am I right that all canon digital cameras auto reduce fill flash?? and you can dial in FEC on top of that if you have a speedlight...

.

Not always, and yes. Auto reduction occurs in some modes above a certain EV level. You can always dial in FEC.

See this link for more info:

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

Mark

[René Damkot]

What'd ya think?

Needs some work IMHO.
Background underexposed by 1/2 a stop, next time use at least -1/2 to -1 FEC.

[Curtis N]

Background underexposed by 1/2 a stop, next time use at least -1/2 to -1 FEC.It's that Godforsaken NEVEC at work! Background exposure is good (or at least better) in the first shot, but when he turned the flash on the camera underexposed it.

I don't think he needed negative FEC. I think he would have been better off with positive EC to compensate for the NEVEC.

[MDJAK]

I agree the background looks better in the first shot. I also agree that the subject (my daughter) is overexposed in the second.

What the heck is NEVEC?

And how does one fix this? Does one dial in FEC on the flash itself? Or on the camera?

thanks
mark

[Curtis N]

What the heck is NEVEC?Read all about it here (http://eosdoc.com/manuals/?q=NEVEC).And how does one fix this? Does one dial in FEC on the flash itself? Or on the camera?NEVEC reduces the ambient exposure in the various auto modes, depending on the ambient light level. The darker the environment, the more the camera will underexpose it. The easiest way around it is to meter using manual mode.

[stlscape]

So, can someone explain what this "fill flash" technique is? And where I can learn more about using a flash both indoors and outdoors.

I found this "Fill Flash Cheat Sheet" helpful when I was trying to figure fill flash out: http://www.popphoto.com/assets/download/821200311318.pdf .

[René Damkot]

It's that Godforsaken NEVEC at work! Background exposure is good (or at least better) in the first shot, but when he turned the flash on the camera underexposed it.

I don't think he needed negative FEC. I think he would have been better off with positive EC to compensate for the NEVEC.

Agree on the NEVEC (and on the sentiments ;))
I do think - FEC was needed though: Now the flash is main light on the subject by more then a stop if I had to guess. Even with the same ambient exposure, flash would've been too much...

[TXLEBER]

Does one dial in FEC on the flash itself? Or on the camera?

I was wondering the same thing.

[Curtis N]

Does one dial in FEC on the flash itself? Or on the camera?You can do it either way, depending on equipment. If you set FEC on the flash to something other than zero, it will override the camera's setting.

The 430EX, 550EX and 580EX flash units all have FEC. The 420EX and less expensive Speedlites don't.

All Canon DSLRs sold in recent years have FEC except the 300D.

[blundar]

There really are two different kinds of fill flash.

1. The example shown below is referred to as "backlight fill flash". The flash tries to balance the lighting of the dark person against the bright background. Normally it is better to shoot this kind with a semi-automatic setting (Tv or Av) and then set the FEC to -2/3.

2. The second type is when you are shooting in direct sunlight and the shadows are dark and overly contrasty. The flash then fills in the shadows in order to balance the shadows with the sunlit skin tones. This is what is normally referred as "shadow fill flash". The Canon system does a great job with this type of fill so I normally set FEC to 0.

...and here is the real secret weapon for outstanding outdoor shoots... Both of these types of fill flash greatly benefit from the use of a circular polarizer and a hood on the lens. I can explain this part of it in more detail if anyone wants to better understand why.

It's been said that pictures speak louder than words:

No flash on a dull, overcast, rainy day, my daughter standing on a small terrace of an Inn in N.H.

http://www.pbase.com/mdjak/image/73211857.jpg

Same shot, little closer, with fill flash. Notice background stays practically the same, but subject now has catchlights in eyes and is generally more appealing.
http://www.pbase.com/mdjak/image/73211858.jpg

What'd ya think?

[TXLEBER]

I can explain this part of it in more detail if anyone wants to better understand why.

Thanks...I DO!

[MDJAK]

me too.

[blundar]

There are a number of reasons why circular polarizers and outdoor flash work so well together. Bear with me and I'll explain in detail why the Circular Polarizer is my secret weapon when shooting outdoors.

When shooting outdoors, I also like to use a circular polarizer. This richens up the colors on the photo especially in the sky, and eliminates glare off concrete, water, tree leaves, etc... The circular polarizer also eliminates the flash hotspots from skin, hair, glasses, etc.

The circular polarizer (CP) also gives you the ability to shoot at more open f/stops giving you a shallower DOF (great for portraits). Most polarizers are rated for 1 to 1-1/2 f/stops but that is deceiving. That rating is only for the normal light coming into the lens. A CP really cuts down on reflections that would make the shutter speed go way up on a semi-automatic camera setting (Av or Tv) to compensate for the extra light. The reflections are cut down to almost nothing. Grass, asphalt, concrete, cars, trees, skin, hair, water, almost everything like this reflects a bunch of light that a good CP filter will easily take control of.

For the simplest way to shoot in bright sunlight I follow these steps:
1. Set camera to RAW.
2. Put on a good quality circular polarizer, aim at a blue sky and dial it to its darkest setting.
3. Put on lens hood.
4. Set camera on Tv mode at top synch speed (1/200 for canon 5D, or 1/250 for canon 20D or 30D).
5. Set iso to 100.
6. Fire away!

Usually with a circular polarizer on, I will end up with an f/stop around f/5 to around f3.5 on a bright sunny day at 1/200 sec, ISO 100. If the f/stop is higher than that, I usually switch to ISO 50 on my Canon 5D if I want a shallower DOF. If the f/stop ends up too low at f/2.8 and blinking, I dial down the shutter speed until the aperture goes up to around f/3.5 or f/4. By doing it this way, I avoid using HSS and end up with much more power on the flash. I try to stay away from using HSS because it really reduces your flash's effectiveness and range when shooting in bright sunlight.

With a Canon 5D Full Frame, at f4.5, Tamron 28-75 f2.8 at 75mm, the DOF is as shallow as a 1.6x crop DSLR at f2.8, and I can dial down to ISO 50 if I want an even shallower DOF.

I prefer shooting RAW in bright sunlight using fill flash. Certainly it is not absolutely required, but it gives me more room for error under such extreme shooting conditions.

My method of shooting in the bright sun with fill flash is not the "end-all" of methods for everyone. It is a simple method that works for me well, without using HSS, and I recommend it.

Believe it or not, CP filters also work great for controlling flash hotspots on skin when shooting indoors also, but it is more difficult for the lens to lock focus when it gets really dark.



Thanks...I DO!

[Curtis N]

Ok Blundar, I'm with you in theory. I especially like the idea of a CP (or any ND filter, for that matter) to enable use of wider apertures without HSS. The combination of the filter and the corresponding wider aperture won't affect your flash range.

But you said use a CP and a hood. Isn't that kind of a pain in the you-know-what?

[ladki]

Do you have any samples of this with and without the CP?

There are a number of reasons why circular polarizers and outdoor flash work so well together. Bear with me and I'll explain in detail why the Circular Polarizer is my secret weapon when shooting outdoors.

When shooting outdoors, I also like to use a circular polarizer. This richens up the colors on the photo especially in the sky, and eliminates glare off concrete, water, tree leaves, etc... The circular polarizer also eliminates the flash hotspots from skin, hair, glasses, etc.

The circular polarizer (CP) also gives you the ability to shoot at more open f/stops giving you a shallower DOF (great for portraits). Most polarizers are rated for 1 to 1-1/2 f/stops but that is deceiving. That rating is only for the normal light coming into the lens. A CP really cuts down on reflections that would make the shutter speed go way up on a semi-automatic camera setting (Av or Tv) to compensate for the extra light. The reflections are cut down to almost nothing. Grass, asphalt, concrete, cars, trees, skin, hair, water, almost everything like this reflects a bunch of light that a good CP filter will easily take control of.

For the simplest way to shoot in bright sunlight I follow these steps:
1. Set camera to RAW.
2. Put on a good quality circular polarizer, aim at a blue sky and dial it to its darkest setting.
3. Put on lens hood.
4. Set camera on Tv mode at top synch speed (1/200 for canon 5D, or 1/250 for canon 20D or 30D).
5. Set iso to 100.
6. Fire away!

Usually with a circular polarizer on, I will end up with an f/stop around f/5 to around f3.5 on a bright sunny day at 1/200 sec, ISO 100. If the f/stop is higher than that, I usually switch to ISO 50 on my Canon 5D if I want a shallower DOF. If the f/stop ends up too low at f/2.8 and blinking, I dial down the shutter speed until the aperture goes up to around f/3.5 or f/4. By doing it this way, I avoid using HSS and end up with much more power on the flash. I try to stay away from using HSS because it really reduces your flash's effectiveness and range when shooting in bright sunlight.

With a Canon 5D Full Frame, at f4.5, Tamron 28-75 f2.8 at 75mm, the DOF is as shallow as a 1.6x crop DSLR at f2.8, and I can dial down to ISO 50 if I want an even shallower DOF.

I prefer shooting RAW in bright sunlight using fill flash. Certainly it is not absolutely required, but it gives me more room for error under such extreme shooting conditions.

My method of shooting in the bright sun with fill flash is not the "end-all" of methods for everyone. It is a simple method that works for me well, without using HSS, and I recommend it.

Believe it or not, CP filters also work great for controlling flash hotspots on skin when shooting indoors also, but it is more difficult for the lens to lock focus when it gets really dark.

[blundar]

When shooting outdoors in bright sunlight, lens flare will be a real problem if you do not use a hood. Anyway, I aim up in at the sky and dial the CP all the way up to dark before I start shooting. I then do not have to touch the CP again for the rest of the day.

Ok Blundar, I'm with you in theory. I especially like the idea of a CP (or any ND filter, for that matter) to enable use of wider apertures without HSS. The combination of the filter and the corresponding wider aperture won't affect your flash range.

But you said use a CP and a hood. Isn't that kind of a pain in the you-know-what?

[blundar]

Here is a quick sample (first photo) of a shot with a CP on and with fill flash. With the CP on, the skin tones with the flash do not look shinny (not oily looking) on the flash hot spots. The CP makes the sky look blue instead of white-ish, and the colors are richer in the entire photo. Also, because of the CP filter, the aperture was opened up to around f/4 at 1/200sec iso100 so that the DOF is shallow enough on a full frame camera (Canon 5D) that the background blurrs up and the attention jumps to the model. The fill flash lightens up the the shadows so that they are not so harsh and contrasty.

This is what a shot looks like without flash or a circular polarizer in bright sunlight (second photo). The sky is white, many of the areas are overexposed, some of the dark areas are too dark, and all the colors look washed out.

Do you have any samples of this with and without the CP?

[wilflee]

I'm afraid your flash has become the keylight instead of fill light in the 2nd picture. For daylight outdoor shots, sunlight is usually the key. Otherwise, it looks really unnatural.

The fix is really easy. Although I don't know how to do it with Canon's fully automated flash system :o. I've always done it manually using the following steps :

1) meter the background (spot meter the green grass - thats appx 17% grey). Or meter the part you want properly exposed. Say you get 1/250 @ f/11
2) set your camera to 1/250, f/11
3) set your flash output level to expose for f/8 if you want 1 stop ratio on the fill. f/5.6 if 2 stops. If the flash isn't mounted on the camera, you need to take distance into account as well.
4) fire away

The reason for doing it manually instead of relying on the automated TTL metering of the camera is that the subject you want to fill isn't always in the center or in the metering area. Also, for off camera flash, this is more reliable then using E-TTL.

Finally, remember to adjust flash diffusion to match the sunlight. So, on a sunny day, use direct flash. On a cloudy day, add a diffuser in front of the flash. The fill light must match the key light in terms of harshness.

It's been said that pictures speak louder than words:

No flash on a dull, overcast, rainy day, my daughter standing on a small terrace of an Inn in N.H.

http://www.pbase.com/mdjak/image/73211857.jpg

Same shot, little closer, with fill flash. Notice background stays practically the same, but subject now has catchlights in eyes and is generally more appealing.
http://www.pbase.com/mdjak/image/73211858.jpg

What'd ya think?

[TXLEBER]

3) set your flash output level to expose for f/8 if you want 1 stop ratio on the fill. f/5.6 if 2 stops.

Thanks for that explanation blundar.

wilflee, can you elaborate on #3? How do I check if my flash output is exposing at f/8? Is this done by using the histogram?

Thanks!

[wilflee]

Thanks for that explanation blundar.

wilflee, can you elaborate on #3? How do I check if my flash output is exposing at f/8? Is this done by using the histogram?

Thanks!
To be honest, I don't know how to use histogram on the camera. To me, it is a photoshop tool and I adjust it on the computer. So, to answer your question, I don't use the histogram on the camera.

As for "setting flash output to f/8", I guess the modern way of saying it is to "set the FEC to -1". Since the metered background (or the part of the picture you want to expose properly) is metered at f/11, then to get your flash to output 1 stop less light to fill the dark areas, you set the flash to output enough light to expose the image at f/8.

Sorry but I can't explain it any better. But read up on studio lighting with multi-light setup and setting lighting ratios. It's the same concept here. Except the key light is the sun and fill light is your flash.

[blundar]

Check out my updated photo samples with and without CP filter and fill flash. Previously they were not properly showing up because of file sizes.

[canoflan]

I found this "Fill Flash Cheat Sheet" helpful when I was trying to figure fill flash out: http://www.popphoto.com/assets/download/821200311318.pdf .

This is a fantastic link. I can carry this in the camera bag for reference. Thanks a lot!;)