PS CS camera raw

[Warman]

About a week ago i came up with a problem in photoshop cs raw conversion which was mainly about the introduction of a lot of regular noise in the conversions. Cyberdyne advised on the usage of sharpness settings in the conversion and that looked like it corrected the problem.
Yesterday a friend asked me to shot his aquarium and because of the poor light conditions i shot at ISO 400. When i looked at the results in PS today i percieved the same regular noise pattern but this time all settings were as shot. I converted using canon standard software and the diference is overwhelming. What could be causing this?

http://www.dagonar.com/warman/g/testing.jpg

[evilenglishman]

???
I don't see an "overwhelming" difference - I think the photoshop one looks better

[Warman]

It does look better noisewise but it introduces a regular pattern of noise in lines that is visible and noticeable. This detracts from the image much more than the irregular noise even if it is in a much smaller scale.

[evilenglishman]

ah, the horizontal lines. I cant think of any reason wht this would happen, do you have the camera raw 2.1 plug in or the one that came with pscs?
I'm just curious as adobe "claim" it is better at handling noise.

[Warman]

I was not sure so i downloaded it from adobe and the result is the same. :(

[evilenglishman]

can you mail me your raw file?

[Warman]

sure but where do i send it to?

[slejhamer]

Curious if any resolution to this problem has been established.

Adobe's claim that Raw Converter v2.1 solves the issue is bunk. It's still there.

Reducing sharpening to zero and playing with the other controls (luma and chroma smoothing) will eliminate the effect in the preview and conversion, but generates a very soft image. Subsequent sharpening in PS adds the cross-hatch "noise" right back!

(An edge mask might help to a degree, but normal textures in skin and clothing would be obliterated. Not a usable solution, IMHO.)

: Feeling very underwhelmed by the CS upgrade... :

[CyberDyneSystems]

In another post yesterday I mentioned that wehn this issue was first brought to our attention I was firmly in denial.. :roll:

I started to beleive it as I found myself needing more and more Noise reduction tweeking once I was in PS.. (Grain Surgery was getting a LOT of use..)

It was when I took the time to really work on the full size images that eho's reduced joegs I posted in share of the gul diving for quahogs that I truly saw how huge this issue could be,. here were perfectly exposed images that if anything were too far "to the right" at low ISO and the output from PSCS was adding lot's of grain to the what should have been "smooth as glass" water.

The images i posted showed known of this as I did major NR with Grain Surgery on the water (I left the subject alone)

This has not stopped from using PSCS RAW alltogether,. I still find it to be the most flexible RAW converter out there,. but the issue is a bummer for sure.

I am hoping that Adobe can fix it.

[CyberDyneSystems]

As an aside,.

Does anyone know if people are seeing this particular noise issue with PSCS on RAW files OTHER than 10D, 300D, D60 etc....

Could this be confined to specific RAW files? Perhaps to CMOS generated files? This may be way off base,. but it certainly is a question that deserves to be answered...

[evilenglishman]

i dont suffer from noise problems at all

[clorich]

Does anyone know if people are seeing this particular noise issue with PSCS on RAW files OTHER than 10D, 300D, D60 etc....


I see it with my G2

[CyberDyneSystems]

i dont suffer from noise problems at all

We know Evil,. your special that way :)

...must be living out in the country..

I live above an alley and at 2:00am the clubs let out .. and Oh MAN do I Suffer from the noise!!!!!! :mrgreen:

[evilenglishman]

this topic was about a strange pattern that was appearing in warman's images.
As I remember it was like the results someone else was getting because of a power pack, it was interference or something.

[slejhamer]

this topic was about a strange pattern that was appearing in warman's images.
As I remember it was like the results someone else was getting because of a power pack, it was interference or something.

Yes, a strange cross-hatch pattern becomes apparent at 100%+ zoom in higher ISO shots (400 and up.) I do not see the same pattern when processing in Capture One, and find ACR-processed images to be noisier in general than C1-processed images.

That having been said, C1 has it's own problems (see recent post by Drisley), and ACR seems to give smoother color transitions. :x

[chris.bailey]

I noticed this on my 10D, RAW and CS a few weeks ago. It is a regular pattern in my case, a bit like interlocking bricks, I take it this is what you are talking about?

It lessens if you crank up the luminance smoothing and lower the sharpening in the CS RAW converter and DFine gets rid of most of the rest. To me it seems most noticeable on blue tones (water and sky). If you take a picture of a white board it is hardly noticeable but using DFine or Noise Ninja or the like does soften an image a bit

[slejhamer]

Yes, Chris, that's the pattern. I've seen it described as a crosshatch, but "interlocking bricks" is good too.

You are right that luma smoothing and third-party noise reduction can help, but this adds additional processing and possible image degradation to offset what seems to be a software issue, not something inherent to RAW processing. Neither C1 nor BB introduce the pattern.

Jeez, I'm starting to sound like that measurebator guy ... maybe I should go shoot some pictures. Then I'll feel better! :lol:

[evilenglishman]

maybe someone could post examples?

[chris.bailey]

I'll try and post up some pics on Saturday.

[chris.bailey]

As promised some trials with different levels of Luminance Smoothing in the RAW converter of CS. All images were converted with identical settings and USM applied to the Lightness channel only of a LAB conversion at 100,2,4 and then back to RGB. Shots were at ISO 100.

The first is with no Luminance Smoothing applied

http://www.pbase.com/image/28263550.jpg

The second with a setting of Luminance Smoothing 50

http://www.pbase.com/image/28263551.jpg

With Luminance Smoothing of 50 and then DFINE Luminance noise reduction at the lowest setting

http://www.pbase.com/image/28263552.jpg

And finally with Luminance Smoothing of 75

http://www.pbase.com/image/28263553.jpg

Not sure how clear it will be from these but cranking up the Luminance Smoothing to around 50 does make a big difference but beyond 50 less so.

Image are at, which may be a little more obvious.

http://www.pbase.com/chris_bailey/ps_cs_raw_tests

[evilenglishman]

so where is the crosshatch pattern :?:

if you mean that feint diagonal pattern, that isn't normal - ive never seen that on any of my images. it looks more like a case of blur caused by movement at the time of taking the photo.

[chris.bailey]

so where is the crosshatch pattern :?:

if you mean that feint diagonal pattern, that isn't normal - ive never seen that on any of my images. it looks more like a case of blur caused by movement at the time of taking the photo.

Quite hard to reproduce in a jpg as the artifacts and softness of the resulting file tends to blur the pattern. This is as close as I can reproduce -

http://www.pbase.com/image/28266508.jpg

My D60 does it so does my S50 so it is not a function of the 10D. Yes it is only really visible at large enlargement but it is there. In CS at 1600% it does show as a regular pattern of rectangular blocks and is far more defined than reproduced here.

[evilenglishman]

sorry but i dont understand.

This original post was about a very noticable pattern like stripes on the image.
I don't quite see what you are trying to say, looking at any image at 1600% will show a pattern of blocks as individual pixels are reproduced at around 10x10 pixels in size.
Are you saying that looking at an image at 1600% in C1 doesn't show this pixel block pattern?


With Luminance Smoothing of 50 and then DFINE Luminance noise reduction at the lowest setting

What is "DFINE Luminance noise reduction"? I don't have that option with my copy of photoshop.

[slejhamer]

http://www.pbase.com/image/28274265.jpg

~200% crop to underscore the effect.

The noise is visible both in the ACR preview as well as in the processed image at 100%. The problem can be reduced with luma smoothing during conversion and 3rd-party software afterwards.

Again, this noise is NOT visible in Capture One.

[evilenglishman]

http://www.pbase.com/image/28274265.jpg

~200% crop to underscore the effect.

The noise is visible both in the ACR preview as well as in the processed image at 100%. The problem can be reduced with luma smoothing during conversion and 3rd-party software afterwards.

Again, this noise is NOT visible in Capture One.

this is what all of your images are like?

[chris.bailey]

Well done slejhammer, that is what I was trying to reproduce, obviously from Evils comments I was far from successful :roll: Yours seems far worse, I only get it on solid blocks of colour. I take it you slammed up the PS RAW sharpness setting to get it.

Evil - DFINE is another noise reduction plug in by NIK

[slejhamer]

I take it you slammed up the PS RAW sharpness setting to get it.

Yes, but only to 50, with zero luma smoothing (the default.)

Not sure if this matters, but the above was taken with a Digital Rebel (not mine.) Yesterday I processed a well-exposed ISO 100 image taken with my 10D. I could see almost none of the noise, even at 300% zoom! Can't write off ACR just yet... :lol:

[chris.bailey]

I take it you slammed up the PS RAW sharpness setting to get it.

Yes, but only to 50, with zero luma smoothing (the default.)

Not sure if this matters, but the above was taken with a Digital Rebel (not mine.) Yesterday I processed a well-exposed ISO 100 image taken with my 10D. I could see almost none of the noise, even at 300% zoom! Can't write off ACR just yet... :lol:

Interesting. It is definately there on the 10D when run through CS RAW but not as bad as your capture unless I really crank up the sharpening. Not a huge problem as DFINE gets rid of it nicely but without some sort of noise reduction processing it does show on a 10x8 print as a faint graininess in solid colours as my series of shots kinda shows

[evilenglishman]

It is definately there on the 10D when run through CS RAW but not as bad as your capture unless I really crank up the sharpening. Not a huge problem as DFINE gets rid of it nicely but without some sort of noise reduction processing it does show on a 10x8 print as a faint graininess in solid colours as my series of shots kinda shows


are you over sharpening your images? It looks to me that this is a pattern that becoms more apparent the more you sharpen an image.
I can set my sharpness at 60 or so with luminence sm. at 20 with no noise at all.

[chris.bailey]

It is definately there on the 10D when run through CS RAW but not as bad as your capture unless I really crank up the sharpening. Not a huge problem as DFINE gets rid of it nicely but without some sort of noise reduction processing it does show on a 10x8 print as a faint graininess in solid colours as my series of shots kinda shows


are you over sharpening your images? It looks to me that this is a pattern that becoms more apparent the more you sharpen an image.
I can set my sharpness at 60 or so with luminence sm. at 20 with no noise at all.

No, I tend to set sharpness at 25 and lum sm at 40. I tend to do the main sharpening at the end in CS and just apply a bit in the conversion.

[CyberDyneSystems]

There is no question that the intensity of the effect varies with the images ... the darker and more "to the left: the exposure. the more visible the patterning.. higher iso obviously adds to the effect..

A "busy" may have no visible pattern at all..

Weird.