Taking pictures in museums without flash?

[snatiep]

Hello everyone!
In March I will be traveling to Washington DC with my new Rebel XTi and was wondering how people shoot indoors without a flash or a tripod. I'm going to tour the US Capital building, Supreme Court, Smithsonian, etc, and was wondering how to shoot in Av without a flash? Hopefully it will be bright enough in those buildings to get a fast enough shutter speed. Also in the Smithsonian shooting through those glass displays, certainly you don't want to use a flash.

Thank you very much for any tips!
Nate

[BrewsterPilot]

Monopod?
High ISO, wide aperture lens (like f/1.8 or so), and a steady hand.

[ghms421]

You'll need a fast prime. What is your budget? A 50 f1.8 is good and cheap, but I'd get something wider like a sigma 20 f1.8, or a 3rd party 14 f2.8 if you can swing it.

[rhys]

17-55 IS?
I never have problems - I brace myself against supports etc.

[snatiep]

That's a good idea, just up the ISO a little bit and try to brace yourself against something.

What's the slowest shutter speed you'd shoot at handheld?

[condyk]

I took a load of shots in my local museum with my 17-70mm wide open at ISO 400. No big deal but the light was Ok. Up the ISO is the best bet. I usually carry a 30mm 1.4 if I think I might need some speed.

[BrewsterPilot]

That's a good idea, just up the ISO a little bit and try to brace yourself against something.

What's the slowest shutter speed you'd shoot at handheld?

The FOV of your lens (in FF), like 50mm on a crop body=80mm FF, next shutter speed up; in this case 1/100. Depends entirely how steady your hand is, mine isn't, so I use a tripod.;)

[joeseph]

Hello everyone!
In March I will be traveling to Washington DC with my new Rebel XTi and was wondering how people shoot indoors without a flash or a tripod. I'm going to tour the US Capital building, Supreme Court, Smithsonian, etc, and was wondering how to shoot in Av without a flash? Hopefully it will be bright enough in those buildings to get a fast enough shutter speed. Also in the Smithsonian shooting through those glass displays, certainly you don't want to use a flash.

Thank you very much for any tips!
Nate
Not sure what lens you currently have so can only relate my own experience.
Shooting thru glass displays (where they let you!) it's great if you have a zoom lens with a non-rotating front element. Gently rest the lens on the glass, zoom away, focus & fire. Shutterspeed can be really, really low if you hold the lens steady enough.
The 16-35 I bought especially for going to the Cairo Museum where they wouldn't allow tripods or flash. (they now don't allow photography at all but that's another rant)
example of 1/8th sec shutterspeed at F4: http://joebloggs.servebeer.com/odd_files/img_9700-800.jpg
the other way to get low enough handheld shutterspeed for a wide-enough apeture is IS.
Probably camera shake will be your main problem in low light, so I'd use shutter priority rather than apeture priority. Shoot in RAW so you can get as much post processing adjustment as possible, and don't be to afraid to use higher than normal ISO's if available - sometimes it's far better to have a grainy picture of something than a blurry one or none at all.

[TeamSpeed]

I have used the Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 inside without flash at 800 and 1600 for great pictures. Great quality lens at a very reasonable price (in the $300's USD).

As luck would have it, I picked up a 17-55 as a great package price with a 30D, so I am selling my Sigma in the Marketplace. If you are interested and would like any kind of pics at any settings let me know.

[rhys]

That's a good idea, just up the ISO a little bit and try to brace yourself against something.

What's the slowest shutter speed you'd shoot at handheld?

My slowest was 1 second handeld, braced against a wall with a 35mm lens and 35mm 100 ASA film. It was sharp, sharp, sharp.

[Jon]

Monopod?
High ISO, wide aperture lens (like f/1.8 or so), and a steady hand.
The Smithsonian museums don't like monopods or tripods. Either flash or a fast lens. And some of them don't allow flash, so fast lens is safest.

[Sharpstat]

The Smithsonian museums don't like monopods or tripods. Either flash or a fast lens. And some of them don't allow flash, so fast lens is safest.


Jon,

It's been several years since I've been to the Smithsonian. I can understand flash usage which gets annoying when you're trying to listen and look at the exibits and suddenly a flah fires and you're blinded! That's mean of them not letting one use a monopod? Taking up too much space? The ideal setup is to leave it on the stick set it down focus and snap the shot! Not much longer than handheld when you get the coordination down?

[Jon]

They don't want the long leg swinging around and bashing people/exhibits as you wander around, I believe.

[Steiglitz]

For museums, F2.8 or down from there is too slow. I could never get the great shots of all those museums in Italy with an F2.8 lens...too slow!

Forget about a tripod. Forget about a flash. Forget about a monopod.

Forget about a 50mm or longer prime for a cropped body.

Get a 28mm F1.8, and call it a day.

[PhotoFranz]

Take a look at the samples in this Rebel XTi review. Many are "museum shots" with no flash. Some at f/3.5. EXIF data is given and it may be informative. www.dpreview.com seems to be a pretty good review site too.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page30.asp

[b1gdaddy]

I've used this method in the past, it's crude but effective. You will need to adjust this to suit yourself. Take a long loop of strong cord, attach with a spare tripod screw to the base of you camera then put your foot into the loop and pull up tight to eye level. This gives great stability for low light shooting. Maybe make a couple at different lengths for kneeling/crouching etc.

[Mstar]

This is the inside of The National Maritime Museum, Falmouth, Uk.

Check the exif for the details.

Hope it helps.

Mark

Make: Canon
Model: Canon EOS 20D
Orientation of image: 1
X resolution: 72.0 ppi (pixel per inch)
Y resolution: 72.0 ppi (pixel per inch)
Resolution unit: inch
Software: Adobe Photoshop CS Macintosh
File date and time: 2006:05:01 21:41:44
Unknown tag (318): 0.3
Unknown tag (319): 0.6
Unknown tag (529): 0.3
Y and C positioning: co-sited
-- Exif IFD --:
Exposure time: 1/20 s
F number: 2.8
Exposure program: Shutter priority
ISO speed rating: 800
Exif version: 0221
Date and time of original data generation: 2006:04:30 16:27:24
Date and time of digital data generation: 2006:04:30 16:27:24
Meaning of each component: YCbCr
Shutter speed: 4.3 APEX = 1/20 s
Aperture: 3.0 APEX = F2.8
Exposure bias: 0.0
Metering mode: Pattern
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode.
Lens focal length: 16.0 mm
Supported Flashpix version: 0100
Color Space: Uncalibrated
Valid image width in pixel: 650
Valid image height in pixel: 975
Focal plane x resolution: 3959.3 (700800/177) ppi (pixel per inch)
Focal plane y resolution: 3959.3 (233600/59) ppi (pixel per inch)
Focal plane resolution unit: inch
Custom image processing: Normal process
Exposure method: Auto exposure
White balance: Auto white balance

[grizzy]

Hello everyone!
In March I will be traveling to Washington DC with my new Rebel XTi and was wondering how people shoot indoors without a flash or a tripod. I'm going to tour the US Capital building, Supreme Court, Smithsonian, etc, and was wondering how to shoot in Av without a flash? Hopefully it will be bright enough in those buildings to get a fast enough shutter speed. Also in the Smithsonian shooting through those glass displays, certainly you don't want to use a flash.

Thank you very much for any tips!
Nate

Nate,

You're going to love DC. You said March but man what part of March will be huge in terms of crowds. I've been there in the first week and had the Mall to myself and the last few days of March it seems everyone is there...Cherry Blossoms. There is nothing better than being there when everything is blooming though! I'll give you a rundown of some of the hotspots you should hit:

1. National Gallery of Art. You have to go here...famous works from Monet, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, and the only Da Vinci outside of Europe. There's also a modern building with Picasso, Pollock, etc. The lighting in here is excellent and I've gotten sharp images with no flash and handheld.

2. Library of Congress. The best Architecture along the mall IMO and the Great hall (reading room) is amazing. Plenty of light in here once again.

3. Arlington National. Not a museum per se but to me the one place that I have to visit with every trip. To me there is no more moving and sacred place in the US. Take the tourmobile tour here (unless your in good shape) and DO NOT miss the Changing of the Guard!

4. National Cathederal. Just amazing. This should be your lowest light situation but should not be missed. A little out of the way but you can couple it with the zoo.

5. National Botanical Gardens (by the Capital). My girlfriend dragged me here but I'm glad she did. If you like Macro (can you say orchids) then you could spend hours here. Outside lighting through an all glass building.

6. Capital. Crowded and some low light conditions. Good luck getting a tri or monopod within 1000 yards of this building. They won't even let you take a camera into the House of Reps.

7. The monuments are all pretty much outside lighting except inside the Lincoln. They're all great.

8. National Archives. Cool to go to but good luck getting any keepers. Crowded, low light, and thick glass.

9. Smithsonians. They are first things people think of but IMO are overatted. Good lighting in most areas but can get real crowded.

10. Bureau of Engraving. No cameras.

Also try to get to Union Station and Georgetown University and it's surrounding areas. Learn and use the Metro...it's clean and efficent.

If you have any questions don't hessitate to ask...have fun!

Chris

[orisky]

Forget about a 50mm or longer prime for a cropped body.

Get a 28mm F1.8, and call it a day.

Bingo! When I had the 50 1.8 on a 10D at the Smithsonian last year, I found that I often wasn't wide enough. If I had a 28 F1.8, that definitely would've been the better choice.

[SkipD]

This sort of photography is where a relatively fast IS lens would really shine. If you could have IS give you the equivalent blur reduction of using two or three stops faster shutter speed, that would be superb. Most museum subjects do not move themselves, thus a slow shutter speed with IS helping you out would probably do the trick. Of course, it helps to practise methods of increasing your handheld stability - even with the IS. The better you can get at stable handheld shots, the smaller the aperture you can use to get better depth of field.

[afletch]

My Canon 2.8 17-55mm IS does a great job in poor light-like museums. Note this shot of the Iwo Jima flag from the National Museum of the Marine Corps. Very dark space.

http://www.tonyfletcher.com/outbox/flag.jpg

[DC9]

Grizzy,

You said at the Capital you got some good inside shots but they won't let you take a camera into the House of Reps. So what did you do with your camera while you saw the House of Reps?

I'm taking the kids up the middle of March and with the increased security since 9/11 I can't decided to drag along the DSLR or a point and shoot.

[BigAl-SA]

Get your technique right. You don't need a super fast lens.

I took these pics in the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul without a flash so as not to draw attention to myself.
http://bigal-sa.smugmug.com/gallery/1948441#P-12-15

In the cathedral in Trier, I used the pop-up flash for fill lighting in one shot.
http://bigal-sa.smugmug.com/gallery/1695888#84057994

In the monastery church at Alpirsbacher:
http://bigal-sa.smugmug.com/gallery/1675651#93324503
(this pic taken at 1/4s resting my elbows on my knees, sitting on a chair).

On the trip I only took the "rubbishy" Sigma 18-125mm (which is F3.5-5.6)

[dave_bass5]

I love my 24-105L IS for museums. it even beats my 50m f/1.4 hands down because of the IS and i find using a smaller apature better for getting every thing in focus. Really looking forward to getting a 17-55f/2.8 IS
This was taken at 1/8 sec, ISO1600 hand held.
http://davepearce.smugmug.com/photos/120516719-L.jpg

And this was at 1/15
http://davepearce.smugmug.com/photos/120515930-L.jpg

[Michael]

Dave, those are nice and sharp! Great shots!

[mkfotos]

Basic recipe:

- glass as fast as possible (or two, one of which would be fast AND wide)
- high ISO, big aperture, as low a shutter speed as you can handle
- MANUAL mode (this will allow you to capture the natural lighting and ambiance)
- maybe a mini-tripod and/or bean bag, something to at least hold the camera more steadily than you naturally could

...and last but not least, practice... in a dimly lit room, street, basement, whatever location is convenient to get your feel for the light

[grizzy]

Grizzy,

You said at the Capital you got some good inside shots but they won't let you take a camera into the House of Reps. So what did you do with your camera while you saw the House of Reps?

I'm taking the kids up the middle of March and with the increased security since 9/11 I can't decided to drag along the DSLR or a point and shoot.

When you walk down the hallway to the House multiple guards tell you to take all electronics (cameras, cell phones, etc.) out and no more pictures allowed. You then put all your gear into a big wooden dresser with lots of drawers that are numbered and then thru a metal detector.

I would bring the dSLR as there are 100 icredible shots you can take with every step...there's no other city like it in American in terms of architecture (a cross between Rome and Paris). You won't run into a hassle with equipment anywhere else as the city is there to be recorded...heck we pay(ed) for it! I've used a tripod at the WWII and Lincoln Memorials at night but never during the day. Seems they are getting more strict about this.

[Steiglitz]

I love my 24-105L IS for museums. it even beats my 50m f/1.4 hands down because of the IS and i find using a smaller apature better for getting every thing in focus. Really looking forward to getting a 17-55f/2.8 IS
This was taken at 1/8 sec, ISO1600 hand held.
http://davepearce.smugmug.com/photos/120516719-L.jpg

And this was at 1/15
http://davepearce.smugmug.com/photos/120515930-L.jpg

Dave, very nice pictures, but to be fair, those planes had a lot more light then most museum shots....therefore your 24-105L would suck in most museums....it really is not a very good lens for museums...but of course your shots show the exception and not the rule.

[TMR Design]

On a 1.6x crop camera wouldn't a 30, 35 or 50mm f/1.4 work nicely for this type of shooting when neither a flash or tripod can be used and lighting is odd, which is usually is in museums?

[nicksan]

I agree with those who suggest getting glass with IS.

On the XTi, I would either get 17-55 f/2.8 IS or the 24-105 f/4 IS.

I would personally get the 17-55, since it's f/2.8 and IS...need all the help you can get!

Then boost the ISO if/when needed...

I shot inside a dark church with a 20D + 17-55...and this produced desireable results.

[Steiglitz]

On a 1.6x crop camera wouldn't a 30, 35 or 50mm f/1.4 work nicely for this type of shooting when neither a flash or tripod can be used and lighting is odd, which is usually is in museums?

50 would be too long...perhaps 30 would often be too, on a 1.6 cropper.

[TMR Design]

50 would be too long...perhaps 30 would often be too, on a 1.6 cropper.

Alright. Then aside from focal length would an f/1.4 lens work in that type of setting? or does it boil down to this being a good example of where IS is almost essential?
I'll be going to some museums in the next few weeks and I guess I'm going to find out how limited I am because my 2 fastest lense, sadly are the 50mm f/1.8 and 85mm f/1.8. The lens I'm going to try to use my Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8 -4.5. I'm hoping that if I can stay at the short end of the lens with large apertures and reasonably high ISO's I can get some good stuff.

[nicksan]

Your DoF is gonna get thin at 1.4...just another thing to think about.
I still say a lens with IS is a good solution here...


Alright. Then aside from focal length would an f/1.4 lens work in that type of setting? or does it boil down to this being a good example of where IS is almost essential?
I'll be going to some museums in the next few weeks and I guess I'm going to find out how limited I am because my 2 fastest lense, sadly are the 50mm f/1.8 and 85mm f/1.8. The lens I'm going to try to use my Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8 -4.5. I'm hoping that if I can stay at the short end of the lens with large apertures and reasonably high ISO's I can get some good stuff.

[BrandonSi]

Here's one of mine I particularly like.. 50mm 1.8, no flash obviously.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/8/10419501_4ca5b16ffd_o.jpg

[TMR Design]

OK well I don't see an IS lens in my immediate future so I think I'll find out how the Sigma 17-70mm at high ISO's works.

[TMR Design]

Here's one of mine I particularly like.. 50mm 1.8, no flash obviously.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/8/10419501_4ca5b16ffd_o.jpg

Thanks for posting a sample. What ISO did you shoot at? Although resized and optimized for the web this picture looks very nice and sharp.

[BrandonSi]

Thanks for posting a sample. What ISO did you shoot at? Although resized and optimized for the web this picture looks very nice and sharp.

Very good question.. the original RAW is at home on DVD, so I'll follow up when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure it's 800.. I won't shoot at 1600 on my 300D, it's just too noisy..

[Jon]

Dave, very nice pictures, but to be fair, those planes had a lot more light then most museum shots....therefore your 24-105L would suck in most museums....it really is not a very good lens for museums...but of course your shots show the exception and not the rule.
First is 24-70 at f/2.8 1/30 sec and 24 mm. The place is painted black. And the lighting's not atypical of the Smithsonian museums although it's at the Air Force Museum. ISO 1600, so I still had a stop to go.
Second's the Wright Flyer at NASM, one of the inner galleries. ISO 3200, 24-70 at 1/125 f/2.8 and 24 mm. This was a special exhibit for the centennial, before anyone says "that ain't where it is". It's back in the Milestones of Flight gallery now.

[Jon]

One more - Udvar-Hazy Annex. D60 ISO 1000, Sigma 15-30 at 26 mm f/4.5 1/20 sec (and leaning on a rail, IIRC).

[chico54t]

Nate,
Just a quick FYI. I live in DC and do much photography in area and museums. Tripods and monopods are forbidden or frowned upon. The tripods are not tolerated in any of the museums. You need to make an appt before or after working hours to use a tripod. Most museums are pretty good about that. The monopods it depends on the guards and their mood. It's hit or miss. Depending on your camera You should be able to work around it except in the light sensitive areas which a very dimly lit. (Sush as the National Archives with the old papers) Good Luck !

[merp]

yeah what BrewsterPilot said =)

[inndee500]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c191/IBEW25/IMG_5411.jpg

[chakalakasp]

Hello everyone!
In March I will be traveling to Washington DC with my new Rebel XTi and was wondering how people shoot indoors without a flash or a tripod. I'm going to tour the US Capital building, Supreme Court, Smithsonian, etc, and was wondering how to shoot in Av without a flash? Hopefully it will be bright enough in those buildings to get a fast enough shutter speed. Also in the Smithsonian shooting through those glass displays, certainly you don't want to use a flash.

Thank you very much for any tips!
Nate

U.S. Capitol interior: No flash, no tripod. If you are taking a senatorial or congressional led tour (you really should, if you can -- write your senator or Congressman in advance), then you will get to the Capitol via an underground private subway that goes from the office buildings -- I believe no photography is allowed at all inside that subway. Light is good in the rotunda, not so good in other places. ISO 800 will get you by with a superwide. By God, this is one place that I wish I could bring a tripod to. No photography or camera equipment is allowed inside the Senate & Congressional viewing galleys; you will be provided a chance to check your equipment with park police staff before you enter.

U.S. Capitol exterior: Tripod allowed if you file for a permit in advance, otherwise, no tripod. Ultrawide works well here.

Supreme Court: Tripod not allowed. Flash allowed. Photography not allowed inside of the actual court. If you have a steady hand or an IS superwide, be SURE to go downstairs, they've got some truely awesome spiral marble staircases that make for incredible photographs! You will be able to take wide angle photos at ISO 800 with available light; anything else requires flash or an IS lens.

White House: No cameras. NO CAMERAS! Seriously, if you score a Whitehouse tour reservation, read the pamphlet they FedEx you very closely. You basically can't bring anything but yourself and your wallet in with you. They won't hold your camera for you either, so unless you want to hide it in a bush or something, you won't get entrance. Oh, and dress up. People who visit the Whitehouse wearing raggy jeans look retarded next to all the guys wearing suits. Feel free to ask the Secret Service guys anything about anything relating to the White House whatsoever -- they're like freakin' history professors, I kid you not.

Smithsonian: Space museum bright in places, dark in others. Natural History dark everywhere. American history dark everywhere. No tripods (you wouldn't want to anyways -- you wouldn't have it up for more than 2 seconds before someone kicked it over walking by!) Flash allowed except near things like the star spangled banner, which is falling apart. Smithsonian Air and Space hangar out near Dulles: no tripod, yes flash, very dark, INCREDIBLE planes and spaceships. The space shuttle Enterprise is there, as is the Enola Gay. American Indian musuem: good light inside main entrance area, where one can find incredible architecture. No tripod.

Lincoln monument: no tripod without prior permit. However, if you bring a minipod or something and do it quick, the park police probably won't notice or say anything. If they do, they'll just tell you not to do it -- no fear of going to the pokey. :) FWIW, nobody challenged me about my tripod at the Jefferson Memorial, but then that's a little less frequented than the Lincoln. You can use a tripod around the mall. Nobody challenged me at the WWII monument.

Metro: Photography of infrastructure NOT allowed. Tripods not allowed to be used. I suspect you can take photos inside the trains, but you may be challenged by police. The law's on your side when it comes to photography in a public place like that, but you may very well be hassled.

I've got some D.C. shots from my last trip out there here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/digicana/sets/72157594345139463/

All are geotagged, in case you want to go there yourself.

Should give you some idea of how cool the place is. Enjoy your stay! :)

[kitacanon]

no sweat...

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3927/copycat2tk2.jpg

[SuzyView]

The museums are crowded and have high security. Every museum has security you have to go through each one and the distance between them is far, so dragging a tripod is not very safe or sensible. I also recommend no flash, just fast lens. I took pictures without a flash last year with nifty and the shots weren't that bad.

[Hellashot]

The FOV of your lens (in FF), like 50mm on a crop body=80mm FF, next shutter speed up; in this case 1/100. Depends entirely how steady your hand is, mine isn't, so I use a tripod.;)

No. 1/focal length still works on 1.6x dSLRs. You'll have to take the crop factor into account if you're using a tiny 2x small sensor of Olympus.

[chakalakasp]

No. 1/focal length still works on 1.6x dSLRs. You'll have to take the crop factor into account if you're using a tiny 2x small sensor of Olympus.

And your rationale for this is... ? I mean, if you're going to say the crop factor doesn't matter for the 1.6, why would you suggest that it does matter for the Olympus?

[SkipD]

No. 1/focal length still works on 1.6x dSLRs. You'll have to take the crop factor into account if you're using a tiny 2x small sensor of Olympus.While 1/focal length may work for you when using a lens on an APS-C camera, it is a pure fact that if that "rule-of-thumb" is correct for the average person using a 35mm film camera that the formula must be modified for use on other formats. In the case of an APS-C camera such as the Canon 30D, the formula for average photographers must be 1/(1.6*focal length).

A "rule-of-thumb" is something that does not fit everybody equally. Some folks will need more and others will need less. That does not change the fact that the formula needs to be changed for different formats - either larger or smaller than the format for which the rule-of-thumb was designed in the first place.

[snatiep]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the wonderful and helpful suggestions.

So, pretty much don't bother bringing the tripod to DC. I'll just have to try to steady the camera somehow, lean against something.

[neil_r]

No flash no support just a steady hand.

Click HERE (http://www.ambrosiabbs.com/gallery/list.php?exhibition=23&u=10738,18) for the gallery and the EXIF


http://www.ambrosiabbs.com/gallery/photo/medium/London_British_Museum_Sep06_N6H0375.jpg

http://www.ambrosiabbs.com/gallery/photo/medium/London_British_Museum_Sep06_N6H0396.jpg

http://www.ambrosiabbs.com/gallery/photo/medium/London_British_Museum_Sep06_N6H0538.jpg

[chakalakasp]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the wonderful and helpful suggestions.

So, pretty much don't bother bringing the tripod to DC. I'll just have to try to steady the camera somehow, lean against something.

Well, you can bring it for the outdoor shots and for places that don't mind -- even with all the restrictions, I still found plenty of places where a tripod helped, especially at sunset. :) However, it may not be worth the bulk for the limited amount you'll be allowed to use it.