to Aelis and all our Spanish friends our deepest sympathy

[marie]

I am so very very sorry for the most terrible atrocity which happened in Spain this morning Aelis
no words can describe the feeling of horror at what has happened.

the terrible suffering for all concerned.

very very much love and prayers to you all

http://www.pbase.com/image/17648936/original.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/image/8880498/original.jpg

[cindavphoto]

I love the rose shot. There is a background that looks a lot like that shot that I'm dying to buy.

:oops: I'm sorry I missed the news this morning so I don't know what happened Spain. I won't be home for the noon news so I'll have to be sure to catch the 5:00. :oops:

[EoSD30fReAk]

the world is getting worse with the day :cry:

why would people do something like this?

now spain! who's next? scary thought knowing it's only a 2 hour flight from my country :cry:

[stoneylonesome]

I too stand beside Marie in extending the same feelings. until these extremist are captured none of us will be safe, it's a very very sad day in the world :cry: :cry:

[spock84]

Actually most of us are safe. Statistically you're more likely to be killed in a traffic accident than by a terrorist bomb. Also, I don't think 'capturing' the 'extremists' is the way to go. Remember, extremists are everywhere, but a very few of them resort to such means as we've seen today.

But sure, it's very sad that things like this happen.

[CyberDyneSystems]

FYI
For thos how don't have acces to news;

"LONDON (AP) - European leaders condemned Thursday's bombings that killed scores of Madrid commuters as an attack on Spanish democracy.

Spanish officials blamed the Basque separatist group ETA, but the leader of an outlawed Basque party denied the organization was involved.

``It is an outrageous, unjustified and unjustifiable attack on the Spanish people and Spanish democracy,'' European Parliament President Pat Cox said in the legislature in Strasbourg, France.

``There is a general election due in Spain on Sunday. What happened today is a declaration of war on democracy,'' he said.

``Let Sunday show that Spanish democracy is determined to overcome terrorism,'' Cox said.

European Commission President Romano Prodi called the attacks ``ferocious and senseless''

``This is not a political act, it is criminal act against defenseless people ... a perverse act of terrorists,'' Prodi said. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3848606,00.html

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11596639.htm

[CyberDyneSystems]

P.S.

Post moved,. feel free to discuss anything in this forum,. I just thought it maybe should be moved in here in case it should spawn any political dsicussion.. :(

I hope you don't mind...

CDS

[IndyJeff]

Let me begin by saying that terrorists, no matter what the affiliation are chicken**** pieces of scum and down right cowards. They won't attack military troops who can fight back but, target innocent civilians.
A claim made to an Egytian newspaper that this is the work of Al Quada is only more reason to hunt these bastards down and kill each and every last one of them.

claims (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/3/11/164850.shtml)

My thought process on them is the same as on burglars and armed robbers. At least an armed robber has the balls to stand and look you in the eye and take your property whereas a thief/burglar comes in when no one is around to catch them (or they do it while you sleep which is a little more bold).

[Tom W]

Let me begin by saying that terrorists, no matter what the affiliation are chicken**** pieces of scum and down right cowards. They won't attack military troops who can fight back but, target innocent civilians.
A claim made to an Egytian newspaper that this is the work of Al Quada is only more reason to hunt these bastards down and kill each and every last one of them.

claims (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/3/11/164850.shtml)

My thought process on them is the same as on burglars and armed robbers. At least an armed robber has the balls to stand and look you in the eye and take your property whereas a thief/burglar comes in when no one is around to catch them (or they do it while you sleep which is a little more bold).

First, my condolences to those who have any connection with this tragedy. This is just wrong. :cry:

And I agree with Jeff - this is the typical act of cowardice. The actions of those who cannot face their adversaries but must act under cover and against those who are innocent to try to further their cause.

This will win no allies for Al Quada, except among those who were already aligned with them. But it will serve to entrench the opposition to militant terrorism as a means to acheive positive results. The world cannot afford to reward these kinds of acts with positive results for to do so will only embolden the terrorists and their accomplices.

[Ikinaa]

I also condemn every act of violence against anyone. Terrorists are cowards because they don't show themselves and most often act from distance and several are talking more simple (easily influancable) people in becoming a kamikaze.

But why only say it's al qaida (they're scum anyway even if they didn't do it in madrid), there's no proof. There are more hints that it was ETA, but no one knows for sure. There are too always some small terrorists cells that claim this bombing for some publicity.

But don't get in their game... They do such things to have publicity, some perhaps for 'higher' goals (but what goal needs violence).
Now if, as some claim, we hunt them down and kill them, they will become martyrs (for their people), they will take vengeance, more bombing, more terrorism, more hunting, more martyrs, etc...

Now don't misunderstand me, I don't say, that we should do nothing. I don't have a miracle solution (or you would see my name in the list for the next nobel price). But I'm sure that generating more violence isn't a good solution too. History prooves that violence against hidden terrorism isn't a solution.

Example : 11 september 2001: New York
After that the US and several countries invested money, soldiers, time, liberty into chasing terrorists. Did terrorism stop? Unfortunately not. Did it avoid terrorist attacks, perhaps, who knows...
But it did reach one goal : terror : everyone is more afraid than ever of terrorists, sees a terrorist behind every bin, fear has entered our lives.
As I see it, the goal of terrorism has been reached partially, but not the goal of the hunters...

So...

[Tom W]

There is no choice but to hunt them down. They are going to kill innocent people and destroy property whether they are hunted or not - so the only way to stop them is to eliminate them.

Its silly to think that ignoring or appeasing them will allow them to go away. The US did that for 10 years and got, among other things, the bombing of the USS Cole and two attempts at the World Trade Center (one sadly successful) from people that have absolutely no value for human life.

And what about Israel - they've exercised an enormous amount of restraint against the Palistinians and it has gotten them nowhere. The time to remove the gloves has long passed IMHO.

[Ikinaa]

Tom, I didn't say I had a solution, IMO there is no solution, so perhaps every proposed solution is as good as the other (though some may be better).

You can hunt them down, but you will never get them all, here will always be new ones, sleeping ones that become active. Getting one will encourage others, the one caught will became a martyr. Religious freak terrorists are not rational, the only rational in the organisation is the head of it, but this one you never get, he won't expose himself. He'll talk the others in doing things.

Terrorists may be everywhere. Look at the sniper (the one comdemned this week). I'm sure a lot of people thought he was a nice guy before that. Suddenly he was a terrorist...
So the solution : Everyone is suspect, trust no one, build a wall around the country, let no one in, no one out, and ... oops that's what they did in east-germany, ...

Hunt the scum that killed 200 people in Madrid, sentence them, and then... ok you get satisfaction that good won over evil (I'd be happy to see that) What would be the price for finding them? More controls at the airports, streets, frontiers, less liberty for the population, perhaps to a certain degree it would be justified.

I still have no solution... anyone's better than me at finding?

As for Israel... let's see... 60 years ago the israelites from today said: Now this territory is Israel, here the Jew will live and the others must go. So who has more rights, the one's that were there before or those who had more power and set themselves in place?
Now a similar hypotetic example : somewhere in the US, lets say a region of 100000 sqm, where a certain group of people live, let's say the 'Blue' (ok, I could say: the people originally coming from Italy, ireland, China, etc... you get my point?). They say : We want our Blue Country, we blue are 80 % of the population in this region, now these 100000sqm are BlueCountry, those who are not blue get out. What will the US do?
(Perhaps it's a bad example, because the US are a greater number that the palestinians...)

[stoneylonesome]

I have to agree with Tom, the only real solution is to hunt them down and eleminate them, but we also have to come down EXTREMLY hard on any country that harbours and protects them either militarily or financially, whatever works..

[Tom W]

Tom, I didn't say I had a solution, IMO there is no solution, so perhaps every proposed solution is as good as the other (though some may be better).

You can hunt them down, but you will never get them all, here will always be new ones, sleeping ones that become active. Getting one will encourage others, the one caught will became a martyr. Religious freak terrorists are not rational, the only rational in the organisation is the head of it, but this one you never get, he won't expose himself. He'll talk the others in doing things.

One thing is for certain - a captive or dead terrorist cannot terrorize. And as the odds of becoming a martyr increase, volunteers will dry up. There's only so many people that are irrational enough to do this sort of thing. Most people have enough sense to think a bit about the odds of success (and I don't mean survival necessarily) before attempting such things. Had we taken the same attitude with Germany in WW-II, we might all be ****s right now.

Terrorists may be everywhere. Look at the sniper (the one comdemned this week). I'm sure a lot of people thought he was a nice guy before that. Suddenly he was a terrorist...
So the solution : Everyone is suspect, trust no one, build a wall around the country, let no one in, no one out, and ... oops that's what they did in east-germany, ...

Of course that's not the answer - an open society is the best if it can be acheived. And I'm certainly not an advocate of government constitutional violations, but I am an advocate of removing these types of people.

For the record, I personally don't see the sniper as a terrorist, but as a criminal. What, to me, would align his actions with terrorism is if he were to perform such acts for a cause consistent with those of other terrorists.

A well armed society such as found in Tennessee is a good defense against that type of action, though it isn't as effective against the more cowardly acts of terrorists like as those in Madrid.

Hunt the scum that killed 200 people in Madrid, sentence them, and then... ok you get satisfaction that good won over evil (I'd be happy to see that) What would be the price for finding them? More controls at the airports, streets, frontiers, less liberty for the population, perhaps to a certain degree it would be justified.

As opposed to letting them go on and continue their acts? There is an underground war against civilized society - the sooner we fight against it, the better our odds of winning. Never give in to your enemies - it emboldens them as no martyr could ever do because those that might be martyrs will live to join their comrads. Dead people cannot kill.

I still have no solution... anyone's better than me at finding?

Ideally, we could talk in a civilized manner with those that would commit terror, but that can't happen. We must remove them for to do nothing is a worse solution, or no solution at all.

As for Israel... let's see... 60 years ago the israelites from today said: Now this territory is Israel, here the Jew will live and the others must go. So who has more rights, the one's that were there before or those who had more power and set themselves in place?
Now a similar hypotetic example : somewhere in the US, lets say a region of 100000 sqm, where a certain group of people live, let's say the 'Blue' (ok, I could say: the people originally coming from Italy, ireland, China, etc... you get my point?). They say : We want our Blue Country, we blue are 80 % of the population in this region, now these 100000sqm are BlueCountry, those who are not blue get out. What will the US do?
(Perhaps it's a bad example, because the US are a greater number that the palestinians...)

There's a whole lot more to the Israel situation than you are letting on in your post. The Jews were there some 2000 years ago, as documented in religous papers. I think you ought to look a little farther back in history (and you may want to consider the provocations that the Jewish people have encountered over the years).

[Ikinaa]

Here's my last post on this subject (We're here for photography, aren't we... :P )

I agree on some of your points, such as a terrorist we've gotten rid of is better than one running around (but still we have to pay attention how we get rid of him, him becoming a martyr is the danger)

Ok... I stop here

[stopbath]

To Aelis and other spaniards:

I am saddened by the violence that has errupted in your country once again. My heart is heavy, but my wishes are light and pure. May you see brighter days soon.

Love and peace...

[Tom W]

Here's my last post on this subject (We're here for photography, aren't we... :P )

I agree on some of your points, such as a terrorist we've gotten rid of is better than one running around (but still we have to pay attention how we get rid of him, him becoming a martyr is the danger)

Ok... I stop here

I can agree with that - we do need to be careful in how we deal with this issue.

Anyway, getting back to the subject at hand in this thread, I cannot express my sadness and condolences enough. Having read the article in today's paper, I see the tragedy in this situation more clearly. It does anger me and that is part of why I react the way I do.

[IndyJeff]

But I'm sure that generating more violence isn't a good solution too. History prooves that violence against hidden terrorism isn't a solution.

Violence is the only thing that terrorists understand and if violence is what is needed to rid the world of them then, so be it.

Example : 11 september 2001: New York
After that the US and several countries invested money, soldiers, time, liberty into chasing terrorists. Did terrorism stop? Unfortunately not. Did it
avoid terrorist attacks, perhaps, who knows...

Al Quada has been decimated from what it was on Sept 10, 2001. Has it stopped? No but, it has been very crippled by the military actions of the nations that decided to put a stop to it.

But it did reach one goal : terror : everyone is more afraid than ever of terrorists, sees a terrorist behind every bin, fear has entered our lives.
As I see it, the goal of terrorism has been reached partially, but not the goal of the hunters...

Who is this everyone you speak of? The NFL had a complete season this year, with the superbowl. The NBA has played as usual, same goes for MLB and it's season and world series'. The major racing series have still gone on. Here in the US we still have parades, festivals etc and not a big drop in attendance for any of these events. Instead of fear, I would use the word caution, that we do have more of now than we used to.
The goal of the terrorists will never be reached, and as far as the goals if the hunters well, the hunters are a lot closer to their goal of winning the war on terror than thier opponents are.
I don't ever remember seeing George Bush hiding in a hole in the ground from someone who was looking for him. We did see Saddam crawling out from under his rock and bin Laden and his minions are pretty much doomed to live in a cave or other primitive conditions for the rest of their lives. Bush made, and still does make, public apprearences. He visits schools, factories, gives speeches and is very much in front of the public. Remember right after 9-11 when Bush visited ground zero? When was the last time you saw bin Laden speaking at a public function. How many times did you see Saddam Soinsane in public? Not many and there was always a doubt as to whether it was him or a double.

You can hunt them down, but you will never get them all, here will always be new ones, sleeping ones that become active. Getting one will encourage others, the one caught will became a martyr. Religious freak terrorists are not rational, the only rational in the organisation is the head of it, but this one you never get, he won't expose himself. He'll talk the others in doing things.

If someone becomes a terrorist because of a martyr then, it was only a matter of time before he became a terrorist to begin with. He was a follower before someone was a martyr.
The way to defeat terrorism is not only thru military action but thru education. Educate the one's who may someday be a follower of bin Laden and his supply will dry up. Do most of you realize the price of the cameras we own are near the annual income of some people in the third world countries? What is the difference? We have been educated, they have not.

Oh and Isreal didn't just walk into a territory and claim it as their own. It was mandated by the UN that Isreal would be given the land of their ancestors.



End of rant.

[stopbath]

Violence is the only thing that terrorists understand and if violence is what is needed to rid the world of them then, so be it.
...
The way to defeat terrorism is not only thru military action but thru education.

:?

[CyberDyneSystems]

The recent history has shown that carefull well targeted devastating responses to terrorist attacks is the best defense and offense against further attacks.

911 can be linked directly to a failure to respond in kind to the incidents involving the USS Cole and the dreadfull situation and subsequent evacuation in Somalia.

Alternately,. when decisive and crippling military action is taken,. in combination with covert and intellegence activities.. recent history will show that it IS possible to stave off additional attacks.

One prime example was the precision bombing of Libya in the 1985 that brought Khadafi's terrorist war to his own doorstep. This single action effectively silenced Khadafi and Libya's previous Monopoly on terrorism for years to come.


Time will tell which group orchestrated the Madrid tragedy. Personally,. I could care less which group it was,. as I felt following 911.. the cause, the cell, the nationality and the religion of terrorists is no longer a concern to any of us. There should be no compartmentalisation of which group is responsible for which action. The bottom line needs to be that the world will no longer tolerate the behavior of terrorism as a means to an end. All terrorists need to be treated with an equal and devastating response.

If it was the Basques,. there movement will, after centuries, essentially come to an end as of Thursday, by there own hand. They have sacrificed the right to any further consideration. Period.

If it was Al quada.. then it is a safe bet that another major military action will follow in the Middle East... :(

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword,..."