Quick question using 580EX

[slyone]

How can I use this 580ex (indoors shooting sports) and get the shutter speed above 1/200? That seems too slow? I usually try for a SS of at least 1/400 +

[sapearl]

If your goal is to freeze action, the actual "duration" of the flash can easily be 1/1000 sec or faster depending upon your distance from the subject. In a sense then, THIS becomes your shutter speed.

[Capt Rick]

I just saw in my book. Slyone,,,If you have the book that came with the flash check out page 17.

[slyone]

Thanks I will! I'm new to all this EOS stuff and want to add more light to my shots (indoor wrestling, basketball, cheerleading etc.) so I can have a little latitude with aperature (currently wide open f/2.8) and SS. Right now I'm using/trying the 5D and have a new 30D if needed too. I should be able to do this with f/2.8's and not have to go to f/2.0 or better primes shouldn't I?

[Curtis N]

This article (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=208520) explains the limits of shutter speed with flash, with some info about high speed sync.

High speed sync is not something I would recommend for shooting sports, though. You'll have better luck freezing motion by keeping the shutter at 1/200 on the 5D or 1/250 on the 30D, and let the flash freeze the motion rather than the shutter.

[slyone]

This article (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=208520) explains the limits of shutter speed with flash, with some info about high speed sync.

High speed sync is not something I would recommend for shooting sports, though. You'll have better luck freezing motion by keeping the shutter at 1/200 on the 5D or 1/250 on the 30D, and let the flash freeze the motion rather than the shutter.
"let the flash freeze the motion rather than the shutter"??? How can light/flash freeze anything? on a side note, I figured 1/200SS would result in blurry shots..My assumptions must be incorrect....I'm reading your article..Thanks!

[sapearl]

"let the flash freeze the motion rather than the shutter"??? How can light/flash freeze anything? ......Thanks!

Consider this: a dancer is running across a completely dark stage and leaps through the air, in front of your camera. Your camera is sitting on a tripod with the shutter open (bulb mode). There is insufficient ambient light for any sort of available light exposure.

At the high point of the dancer's leap you manually trigger your flash, which records the only image on the sensor, because it is the only light hitting the subject. The image is "frozen", almost as if you captured the action with a really high shutter speed to avoid any blur.

Old flash bulbs had an ignition duration of around 1/200 sec, slow by today's standards. The modern electronic flash can discharge a blast of light with a duration as slow as 1/1000 sec, or as short as 1/50,000 sec. A lot depends on distance and power output. If the flash is the predominant light source, then it "acts" like a fast shutter speed. You can easily experiment yourself though. Just set yourself up in a dark room, set your camera for around 1/30 sec and f/8, have somebody walk across your path, and shoot their picture in the middle. The flash will "freeze" their little stroll even though the room was dark and you used a slow shutter speed.

You do run into problems though where there is strong ambient light. The flash may still freeze the action, but the available light will cause some blurring of the subject. - Stu

[slyone]

yea, i see your point..but..in a school gym where it is not pitch black..actually quite nice until you use a camera and find it is actually considered "low light" I can't see the flash effecting motion? I guess maybe I'm just too thick headed,lol! I need to try going for a slower shutter speeds then...maybe that's my problem? I tend to use the histogram for monitering lighting conditions "while" always trying to get 1/400 or better SS.

[RangerRick]

How can I use this 580ex (indoors shooting sports) and get the shutter speed above 1/200? That seems too slow? I usually try for a SS of at least 1/400 +

The better question might be... do you want to see anything beyond the players? (or do you want to see the rest of the gym?)

Think of it this way... the camera settings will expose for the background... and the flash settings will expose the forground. And the flash can freeze the forground.

So... you'll need your highest ISO, wide open lens, and a shutter speed set to (expose) the background (gym)... and adjust the FEC on the 580EX to see (expose) the players. Move the shutter speed up as high as you can to get what you want. Run your camera in M and shoot in RAW if you can.

Here's a pic doing that.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e382/RangerRick56/Frost%20Photography/CBCBBallIMG_0685-Feb06-001.jpg

Many times... photogs do not (or are not allowed to) use a flash. Shooting with a 50mm F1.4 or a 80mm F1.8 is the way to go.

Shoot straight and grin more! :D

[Curtis N]

There are compromises that the flash allows you to make. Whether the flash prevents blur in your subject depends not just on the ambient light level, but how you expose the ambient light. You could set your shutter, aperture and ISO such that the ambient is rendered nearly black, and allow your flash to provide all the light. This will enable you to stop motion with your flash the background will be quite dark. Or you could open the aperture and boost the ISO to perhaps 1 or 2 stops less than normal exposure and let your flash do the rest. With this scenario, your flash will help reduce motion blur but not eliminate it. Sometimes the trick is finding the right compromise.

[sapearl]

.....Think of it this way... the camera settings will expose for the background... and the flash settings will expose the forground. And the flash will freeze the forground.

So... you'll need a wide open lens at a slower shutter speed to see (expose) the background (gym) and adjust the FEC on the 580EX to see (expose) the players........

Very good example Rick - I think your visual explanation is better than my long winded-one ;)

Slyone, you are not thick-headed. Some of these techniques are not the easiest or most intuitive to understand if you've never tried them before. The good news is that with today's modern ETTL dSLRs, you can easily experiment at no cost (no film overhead and "wet processing") and immediately see the results.

[RangerRick]

Very good example Rick - I think your visual explanation is better than my long winded-one ;)

Oh... but I liked the long one. I did not know that the old bulbs had a burst time of about 200/second.

... and I'm an old bulb!! ;)

[SkipD]

Oh... but I liked the long one. I did not know that the old bulbs had a burst time of about 200/second.

... and I'm an old bulb!! ;)We "old bulbs" could take that in several ways with a little creative thinking..... :p

[RangerRick]

We "old bulbs" could take that in several ways with a little creative thinking..... :p

ROTFLOL I'm sitting here... laughing all over the place... trying not to spill my coffee any more than I already have... tears in my eyes... thinking in a new way about burst speeds...

OK... taking a breath... try to stop laughing...
OK... get a grip...

No... really... I didn't say that... No... I'm not gripping anything!?!

Laughing uncontrolably... spilling more coffee... can't see for the tears...

enough...

[SkipD]

Rick - I gather you relate to the subject? :rolleyes:

[sapearl]

Sounds like we're gathering a basket of old bulbs here :lol:

Yeah, it may not be exact, but the ignition duration of all those little magnesium filaments inside an average glass flashbulb would peak around 1/200 sec or so. I once saw a slow motion video of one of those things going off, with an output graph right next to it. The maximum light blast would max in the middle. This is why older lenses had both the "M" and "X" flash settings.

You used M when you were shooting with flash bulbs, and X for strobes. M would actually delay the opening of the (leaf) shutter blades by several milliseconds, to allow the magnesium flash bulb to ignite to maximum intensity, to make all it's light available for the exposure.

The "X" flash setting is for use with the modern electronic flash. The strobe tube fires immediately at max - compared to a flash bulb - and you need to open the camera shutter right away without delay.

For example, If you are in a dark room with a strobe, put the flash setting on "M" and fire, you will get a dark picture. Why? Because the M setting on the camera tells the strobe to delay firing those few miliseconds, which unfortunately is AFTER the shutter has already opened and closed.

[RangerRick]

Rick - I gather you relate to the subject? :rolleyes:

Well... actually no.
I just hadn't realized the double meaning of my words. <grin>
I'm usually the one seeing the hidden humor in others words.

Guess I'm just not use to being the straight man...
er...
I mean butt of the joke...
er... well... anyway...

Sapearl,
Thanks again for the continuing and burning bulb lesson.
I knew of M and X settings, just did not know why they were necessary.
You are just a wealth of knowledge!
Thou art... "Lord of the Flames!"

:lol:

[sapearl]

.....
Sapearl,
Thanks again for the continuing and burning bulb lesson.
I knew of M and X settings, just did not know why they were necessary.
You are just a wealth of knowledge!
Thou art... "Lord of the Flames!"

:lol:

Well, actually I only remember it because of a job I did in 1975 which figuratively went up in flames.

I was still using a Honeywell Strobonar with an old Mamiya TLR. All the interchangeable lenses for that camera had both M and X settings. While changing lenses part way through the job, I inadvertantly bumped that little lever off the "X" (strobe) setting over to the "M" setting.

Needless to say the flash was not properly synched to the lens for all those shots..... generated a fair amount of clear celluloid for that job. It is a lesson well learned, never to be forgotten. Of course today it's a non issue since many cameras don't have PC connections let alone that M/X setting.

[SkipD]

Well, actually I only remember it because of a job I did in 1975 which figuratively went up in flames.

I was still using a Honeywell Strobonar with an old Mamiya TLR. All the interchangeable lenses for that camera had both M and X settings. While changing lenses part way through the job, I inadvertantly bumped that little lever off the "X" (strobe) setting over to the "M" setting.Back in the early 1970's, I worked for a studio in Milwaukee for a summer or two doing weddings for them. One of the first things they suggested doing with the lenses for my Mamiya C-33 (and they paid to have it done) is to have little screws installed to lock the sync levers to the X position. They have been that way ever since.

[sapearl]

Back in the early 1970's, I worked for a studio in Milwaukee for a summer or two doing weddings for them. One of the first things they suggested doing with the lenses for my Mamiya C-33 ..... is to have little screws installed to lock the sync levers to the X position. ......

Funny you should mention that Skip.... had that done to everyone of my TLR lenses a couple weeks later !:lol: I think the local repair shop had an entire drawer devoted to that small sized screw.

[chris clements]

Just wondering
... are any of you old timers going to stop polishing the brass on your Gandolfis long enough to explain to the OP that high speed synch is of no use to him here because it (a) has no range) and (b) doesn't freeze motion ??? :)

[SkipD]

Just wondering
... are any of you old timers going to stop polishing the brass on your Gandolfis long enough to explain to the OP that high speed synch is of no use to him here because it (a) has no range) and (b) doesn't freeze motion ??? :)Methinks that was in some of the posts (or in the links in the posts) early on in this thread.....

[sapearl]

Just wondering
... are any of you old timers going to stop polishing the brass on your Gandolfis long enough to explain to the OP that high speed synch is of no use to him here because it (a) has no range) and (b) doesn't freeze motion ??? :)

Hmmmm... high speed synch; heard of that. My brain hurts whenever I try to figure out where that fits in.

In the meantime: Note to self - stop at Home Depot, pick up more brass polish.