too bright in PS!

[perfectpixel]

Hi All,
please read the following informationa nd let me know what you think is going on.
1. I shoot using the 10 in sRGB color space. I have PS 7 color space set to sRGB, and print using an Epson 870 color profile.
The photos look fine on my monitor (dell LCD 1800F). And the prints have been acceptable
2. I received some feedback that my pictures posted on my pbase site (pbase.com/perfectpixel) are "too dark".
3. Recently, I noticed that my epson 870 output did not match what I was seeing in PS 7. Although acceptable, the printout is darker than what I see on the screen.
4. I thought the problem wsa in my PS settings and wasted a lot of paper/ink trying different Color Management settings, but could not get the print to match the look of the file opened in PS7.
5. Today I noticed that the native windows XP image viewer displayed the images a lot more like the way the looked printed (and also closer to the way they look on the 10D LCD, although that's hard comparision since the screen is so small).
Maybe this will help you see what I mean:
http://www.pbase.com/image/26926985/large.jpg
(This phot is unmanipulated straing out of the 10D)
So something is going on in my PS7 settings and I'm not sure what.
Any idea how I can get PS7 tp display the images closer to what I see using the native image browser (and therefore closer to my final output)
Thanks!

[evilenglishman]

a good place to start is under view/proof colours
to change the proof view go to view/proof setup

[scottbergerphoto]

Is your monitor calibtated?
What color temperature is your monitor set at?
If you have a calibrated monitor and the temp is set at 6500K, I don't know.
Scott

[perfectpixel]

Regrding proofs:
that's where I ended up wasting all the paper and ink! trying to come up with a digital proof that would match the output. Maybe I was not foing it properly, but it did not seem to help. And I'm not sure how it could explainb or apply to the difference between the 2 application I mentioned.

Is my monitor calibrated:
I have the 1800FP color profile that came with the monitor loaded under the color management tab of the display properties. The monitor is set to 6500K. Also, I've played with the brightness contrast settings of the monitor to get the display to match the printout held next to it. All that seemed to ccomplish was to make the diplay look murky! Also, to my way of thinking if I were to change the monitor settings, that would be a global change that would affect all programs. In that case there would still be a difference between PS and the native xp viewer.
It seems to me there is a place within PS where the overall gamma (or something like that) can be changed to alter the display. I can't seem to find it. If it's to be accomplished under proofs and the I am to use PS with view>proof colors turned on all the time, that's fine, but I'm not sure how to accomplish that.

I don't know if this matters but I have the Nvidia GForce4 Ti 4200 video card, with 2 monitors and an extened desktop. The primary monitor is connected throuygh the digital connection and is the one I use for everything that matters. The secondary monitor is connected through the analog port and is used just for all the "extra" windows. I checked out of curiousity and the "brightness" difference between PS7 and the native viewer is apparent on that monitor as well.

Thanks for your help!

[evilenglishman]

go to edit/colour settings and see if there is anything wrong there - i.e. do you have srgb selected etc

[scottbergerphoto]

Is my monitor calibrated:
I have the 1800FP color profile that came with the monitor loaded under the color management tab of the display properties. The monitor is set to 6500K. Also, I've played with the brightness contrast settings of the monitor to get the display to match the printout held next to it. All that seemed to ccomplish was to make the diplay look murky! Also, to my way of thinking if I were to change the monitor settings, that would be a global change that would affect all programs. In that case there would still be a difference between PS and the native xp viewer.

My understanding of a monitor profile is that it is an individual monitor specific profile that must be created for each monitor. It makes certain settings in the video card. Once set as your default profile, it is automatically recognized by Windows as your monitor profile in all Windows applications. It will make your monitor darker. That is part of the trade off for having your prints come out right. You can easily switch back to the default profile that came with the monitor by Right Clicking on the display, Properties>Settings>Advanced>Color Management, and reselecting the factory profile.
Scott

[maderito]

Here's a stab at diagnosing your problem:

Currently you are:
1. Adjusting brightness/contrast in PS to look OK on your monitor
2. Making a print
3. Adjusting your monitor to match the print

Possibly, you are chasing your tail.

VERY roughly, this is what is happening (ignoring differences between image and printer ICC profiles and concentrating only on monitor miscalibration):

An image has a pixel with a color number of 100.

In Photoshop (color managed):
-This APPEARS TO BE too light
-Because color number 100 maps to color 120 on your monitor (per monitor profile)
-So you decrease the image pixel value to 80 using PS editing tools which maps to 100 on your monitor profile.

Now the new color value 80 (formerly 100) looks to you like color 100 on your monitor (still in PS). You're happy.

Outside of Photoshop (non color managed):
-To your printer, 80 is 80, and that's what you get - a dark pixel.
-Outside of Photoshop, 80 is 80, and the image is dark again on your monitor.
-Back in PS, 80 maps to 100 on your monitor, and it looks ok.

The "mapping" of colors from image color space to monitor color space is performed transparently while you're in PS. If you don't realize this and don't get that monitor profile right, you may get stuck in an endless loop of frustration.

Most image review/display programs are not color managed. Thus images don't look the same in them as they do in PS. Thus if you've edited an image to look right in PS, it may come out looking quite different in the "real world."

As Scott suggests, start with your default monitor profile and then refine it using a monitor calibration utility, at a minimum Adobe Gamma. Full monitor calibration and profiling requires more work, dedication (and $$ for the software/hardware).

Some of the statements in your post are in conflict with the ideas above. For instance: "Also, to my way of thinking if I were to change the monitor settings, that would be a global change that would affect all programs." Well, yes and no. Depends in part on whether those changes were incorporated into your monitor profile, and whether the changes were correct, and whether you edit the image in PS to compensate for improper monitor calibration.

Maybe this helps :?: This is a tough subject to discuss via exchanging posts on the forum.

[MediaMagic]

Nice post Moderito. Simple enough even I can understand it. Here's another question for you.

When you profile your monitor with a tool, in my case, Optical/spyder, it creates a profile and loads a memory resident program at startup. Okay, when I right click on the desktop, and then go to properties/settings/advanced/monitor/properties

the old monitor profile is still listed. Now, I'm not complaining as whatever it is loading wherever is working. I just wondered what it going on behind the scenes? I take it my monitor .inf file is different/separate from whatever file the calibration software created, but how do they differ?

[maderito]

MediaMagic,

I don't use the PhotoCal/Spyder system, but I believe it works like other monitor calibration software. The profile created after calibration with the spyder and software should be saved to the correct Windows folder and should become your new default monitor profile. This task is usually accomplished by the calibration software. That same profile should also be recognized by Photoshop as your monitor profie, as long as you've removed other monitor profiling utilities (e.g. Adobe Gamma).

I may not have understood your question fully. For others who want to help here, you should mention the Windows OS system you're using.

[MediaMagic]

MediaMagic,

I don't use the PhotoCal/Spyder system, but I believe it works like other monitor calibration software. The profile created after calibration with the spyder and software should be saved to the correct Windows folder and should become your new default monitor profile. This task is usually accomplished by the calibration software. That same profile should also be recognized by Photoshop as your monitor profie, as long as you've removed other monitor profiling utilities (e.g. Adobe Gamma).

I may not have understood your question fully. For others who want to help here, you should mention the Windows OS system you're using.

I may be confusing terms. I use windows XP Pro. Okay, when you install a monitor, you usually have a monitor driver .INF file that you install with the monitor. when I look at the current monitor driver, it still shows the original monitor driver. I guess my question is this, is the monitor profile a different animal than the monitor driver? Or should that profile created by the calibration software have been installed as the driver? does this question make sense?

[scottbergerphoto]

The monitor profile is completely different then the monitor driver and located in a different folder. The monitor profile you create with the spyder/photocal is saved in the Windows>System32>Spool>Drivers>Color folder. When you right click on you desktop go to Properties>settings>advanced>color management; If your new profile that you just created isn't there, then click on ADD. The color folder will open. Select the monitor profile you created. Then specify it as your default monitor profile.
Scott

[MediaMagic]

The monitor profile is completely different then the monitor driver and located in a different folder. The monitor profile you create with the spyder/photocal is saved in the Windows>System32>Spool>Drivers>Color folder. When you right click on you desktop go to Properties>settings>advanced>color management; If your new profile that you just created isn't there, then click on ADD. The color folder will open. Select the monitor profile you created. Then specify it as your default monitor profile.
Scott

Ahhhhh, got it. So I was confusing the terms. Thanks Scott. I knew I had seen the new profile somewhere, it's right there under color management where it's supposed to be but I was looking under the monitor driver.