ND Grads - choices..

[Lightstream]

Narrowed my selection of ND grads down to a few choices but I still need to ask a couple of questions...

There are basically two options I'm looking at
- Heliopan 77mm screw-on 0.6 ND grad
- Cokin P system or equivalent

All of the above will use soft edge filters.

The screw-on ND grads seem to be quite rare - why does this seem to be the case? I've heard "You need to adjust the horizon" but I figured the screw on ones could work similar to a polarizer, where you rotate the outer ring to adjust the angle of the ND edge.


The Cokin and Hitech filters that are often recommended seem to be resin filters, though. It's beaten into all of us that "those who would use a filter should use a multicoated one because of flare blah blah blah blah". Are there any optical quality issues with the resin filters? Is coating even relevant in this context? I doubt it is.. just thought I would ask.


What about interoperating with a circular polarizer, or is this no longer necessary?


Lastly..... the cheap and cheerful option to play with:
http://cgi.ebay.com/10pcs-Filter-Free-Box-Adapter-Holder-for-Cokin-P-F3Z_W0QQitemZ200076349087QQihZ010QQcategoryZ30041Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

That's what got me started thinking about the whole lot. Decoding the auction, it appears they give you your choice of ten filters, a box, plus adapter ring and clone of the Cokin P holder - for not too bad a price. Yes, I do know these are the cheap and cheerful auctions..

[Pinto]

No reason to start over. Thread has been running for a while, and should be of help to you: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=267102

[Lightstream]

I read that thread, thanks.. it still does not answer the difference between resin and glass filters and whether there are any implications of resin. And does not address 77mm screw-in grads directly.

[Mark_Cohran]

I use the Cokin P filters. The reason - they're much easier and more versatile than the screw in because you can slide them up and down in the filter holder to match the horizon line while maintaining the composition. (this is the reason the screw-in filters aren't as popular and abundant). I haven't found any issues with the Cokin resin filters that would stop me from using them.

Mark

[SYS]

I'm actually baffled by the fact that there are screw on type GND's available at all. The screw on type straight ND makes a perfect sense, but with GND how the heck do the manufacturers expect people to line up the horizon AND compose at the same time?

No, the way CPL and the GND work are entirely different, so don't even bother going there. As for glass vs. resin, the only thing I know is that the glass is for screw on type and resin is for the squre or rectangular slide in type filters. I don't know whether the square or rectangular type filters are available in glass, but even if there are, there are I'm sure pretty good reasons why resin filters are predominant over glass.

As for the sliding filters that only work with the holder and the ring (unless hand holding;)), I'd highly recommend going with the 4x6 (preferrably) or 4x5. With my 4x6 GND filter, I found out that I don't need a straight ND filter as I can fill the entire lens with the dark part of the GND filter with enough sliding room. That saved me about $100 right there (for Lee filters). You certainly can't do that with either the 4x4 or 4x5.

Hope this answers some of your questions. If not, holler back.

[SYS]

Oh, whatever the filter system you end up going with, just don't get the Lee holder and the ring adapter. I like Lee filters that are 4x6 inches for the reason stated above, but I wouldn't buy any other Lee stuff as they're total rip offs for what they're worth. If you ask 2filters.com why they have to backorder for most of the Lee stuff, they'll tell you that that's because they don't sell that many Lee items. There are much cheaper alternatives without compromising the quality of the make. The ring itself, just to give you an example, probably costed only about $2-$5 to manufacture at the most. But Lee sells the ring at something close to $60!!

[Lightstream]

Thanks Mark, Sys.. I read your posts about the ring and its pricing and that's quite scary. On the other end of the spectrum I'm thinking about taking a chance on the cheap made in China stuff....the ability to sample ten of those filters on the cheap sounds attractive.

[SYS]

11Thanks Mark, Sys.. I read your posts about the ring and its pricing and that's quite scary. On the other end of the spectrum I'm thinking about taking a chance on the cheap made in China stuff....the ability to sample ten of those filters on the cheap sounds attractive.

Okay, fair enough. I learned my lesson from an expensive end, you learn yours from the cheap end. Just remember that the only thing I wouldn't suggest is the filter compromise itself. When it comes to filters, I believe you get what you paid for. When it comes to holders and rings, ugh..... I'll take my chances with any fakes.... After all, these are extremely easy to fake, as they're nothing but plastic or some similar material in certain shape with small screws.... and some fakes are actually as good as or even possibly better than the so-called genuine.... The Lee ring, by the way, doesn't even have the "Lee" stamped or engraved on it, meaning it's most likely "Made in China"!!

[Dorman]

Slot GND filter system for the win Lightstream, you need to line-up the horizon and compose and a screw in doesn't give you that flexibility. Check out the Cokin holders, P-series are a good value and they have some higher end ones too. I'm using Hitech filters in mine which are of good quality and I'm pleased with the results.

[Lightstream]

Thanks again guys..

There's a local shop with decent pricing, and obviously, no shipping. Think I will pick up the following (just as many others have done)

Cokin Wide Angle Adapter P299
Cokin 77mm ring
121S 8X ND grad (might get a 121M if situation warrants)
8X solid grad (for waterfalls and to combat diffraction softening when I go below f/16 on my full frame or f/11 on my APS-C cameras)

I know the WA holder is a single-filter holder, but I won't be using the ND grad and the grad at the same time so that's all good.

I'm on the other end of the world and B&H wants $50 in shipping for all of the above.. they gotta be JOKING.. I can get huge fat L's flown to me for less (and have done so before). Think I'll drop by tomorrow and pick up the goodies.

[Jon]

"8x solid grad" - I think you mean 8x ND; "Grad" refers to the gradual/gradient density change between max density and clear.

Resin is more common than glass for grads just because they're grads. It's easier to control the gradation at the lower (approaching room temperature) temperatures you can make a resin filter at. With uniform colour filters, homogeneous is important - so how hot it is and how much time you have to play with it before it sets up don't matter. If you're trying to control the grad, molten glass isn't all that user-friendly.

Cokin makes grey, but not truly neutral, filters; that's one thing you pay more for with the other brands. There is actually a thread on here with photos illustrating (to the OP's chagrin) this, although you can find this from other ources as well.

As an aside on the resin vs. glass issue - Singh Ray will custom make whatever kind of grad you may need; in fact they make the grads all to order. Try doing that with glass!

And, as others have said, you don't want to adjust the angle of the horizon in your picture, but rather where it falls in the picture; presumably you'll be keeping it horizontal, thus rectangular grads in sliding holders rather than circular ones in rotating mounts.

[Lightstream]

*reminds self not to post when tired* ;)

Yeah, 8X solid, no grad part.. 8X all the way thru the filter.

Thanks for the explanation on the resin. I always thought it was a coating not dissolved into the material, but that would explain why grads are easier to make in plastic. Appreciate the tip on Cokin as well - I was wondering why pay extra for Hitech when I didn't have to! Well looks like I have to now ;)