Help...Snow pictures

[Mom2Four]

Since we've had a blizzard this week, I've been trying to take some pics of the kids in the snow. I am a newbie so help me out here. What settings should I use for snow on a sunny day? on a cloudy day? All of my pictures came out with a blue/gray tint.

Also, tomorrow we'll be pulling the kids on sleds with the 4 wheeler....what would be my best bet for good action/snow shots?

Tracy

[thekid24]

Without seeing photos I would suggest adjusting exposure. Would you happen to have any pics to post?

[Mom2Four]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/2boys1princess/snow.jpg

Here's one example.....

[Mark_Cohran]

Shooting scenes with large white areas fools the exposure system and causes the camera to stop down and reduce the exposure which will make the snow gray instead of white. If you're not using the histogram to monitor your exposure, you should at least at +1 - +2 stops Exposure Compensation. The blue tint appears to be a white balance issue. The correction for this is a Custom White Balance (see your manual).

Mark

[rowdyred94]

Alternatively, since the background would probably be blown out by 1 or 2 more stops, you could use direct flash to brighten the subject. Of course, that only works on close subjects.

[Eagle]

It looks like a white balance issue. Exif says you had WB set on manual, try it on AWB(auto). Shot in RAW and you can change the exposure later, if you want to use jpeg the dial in the +1 to +2 EC as mentioned. But the blue tint throughout the picture is do to the WB.

[Tareq]

I love my Nikon 8800, when i was in lebanon i forgot my XT battery in charge so then only my nikon 8800 was there, served me very well and all the photos are just amazing.
USE FULL AUTO NEXT TIME.

[ScottE]

Your image is underexposed. Flash will correct the colour and exposure of the subject, but will still leave the snow in the background blue or gray, depending on the colour of the sky that is reflected in the colour of the snow.

As mentioned, shoot in P, Tv or Av mode and set exposure compensation to somewhere between +2/3 and +2. Take a test shot and look at the histogram. The spike on the right that represents the snow should be close to, but not over the right side of the histogram display. Adjust exposure compensation until your test shots show this display on the histogram.

If the light is uniform it is often better to switch to M and get the correct exposure in that mode. You will have to overexpose and adjust until the histogram looks right.
The problem with using exposure compensation is that the proportion of subject to background snow in your image will change from image to image and can throw off your exposure.

[perfect_pixel]

There was a good discussion on the Sunny 16 rule recently which would probably have some useful info for you:
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=277407&highlight=sunny+16

Steve

[jsfpa]

If it is a sunny with a blue sky, meter off the blue sky. Your meter will go crazy when you go back to the snow but the exposer should be correct.


Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson

[basroil]

as for the blue tint, it should be blue!

user error is pretty common in conditions you're not used to, so just take more photos

[kitacanon]

Sorry to disagree with basroil, but way too much blue to my eyes... also a bit dark...here's my take...
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2859/polavp3.jpg

[Madweasel]

It looks like it was taken using 'tungsten' white balance, or at least a low value (<4000K).

[Eagle]

Shouldn't it look more like this?
Adjusted blues and cyans, removed color cast, brightened overall, lightened shadows.

[Bosscat]

you should at least at +1 - +2 stops Exposure Compensation.

HUH??

If you are out on the beach or on the water, light will reflect off the sand or water onto your subject (e.g., boat, bikini etc.). The same is true of light reflecting off the snow. So in this case, you need to close down one stop (from f/16 to f/22) to prevent over-exposure. If you are shooting a snow-field with a small subject, you may need to stop down two stops to keep the snow looking white, rather than what the camera meter says.

Your misleading folks by telling them to open up on EC.

I almost always have -2/3 of a stop dialed in during snowcross shooting. Otherwise there is absolutely no detail in the scene.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=147545&highlight=snowcross

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=222030&highlight=snowcross

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=270800&highlight=snowcross

Snow is not a constant white as we believe. It depends on what the temperature was when the snow falls. Dry snow has a different colour then wet snow. Melting, refreezing and remelting snow has a different texture and colour then fresh fallen dry snow. These factors also come into play on its reflectivity, and the available light that we must meter for.

[Madweasel]

HUH??

If you are out on the beach or on the water, light will reflect off the sand or water onto your subject (e.g., boat, bikini etc.). The same is true of light reflecting off the snow. So in this case, you need to close down one stop (from f/16 to f/22) to prevent over-exposure. If you are shooting a snow-field with a small subject, you may need to stop down two stops to keep the snow looking white, rather than what the camera meter says.


It depends of course on how much of the scene is white snow, and also, as you say, on whether the sun is reflecting off it, but if most of the scene is white, then the meter will measure it as a mid-grey; therefore opening up the aperture is the right thing to do.

I suspect that if you are finding closing the aperture is keeping the snow white, then the clever-dick matrix metering knows it is looking at a snow scene and is over-compensating. That's why spot, or CW-average, is often better, because you know what you're getting.

Plain-metering off the snow and closing the aperture would result in severely underexposed images.

[Bosscat]

I don't take photos of plain snow at a snowcross, there are usually sleds in the photo

[Mark_Cohran]

HUH??

If you are out on the beach or on the water, light will reflect off the sand or water onto your subject (e.g., boat, bikini etc.). The same is true of light reflecting off the snow. So in this case, you need to close down one stop (from f/16 to f/22) to prevent over-exposure. If you are shooting a snow-field with a small subject, you may need to stop down two stops to keep the snow looking white, rather than what the camera meter says.

Your misleading folks by telling them to open up on EC.

I almost always have -2/3 of a stop dialed in during snowcross shooting. Otherwise there is absolutely no detail in the scene.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=147545&highlight=snowcross

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=222030&highlight=snowcross

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=270800&highlight=snowcross

Snow is not a constant white as we believe. It depends on what the temperature was when the snow falls. Dry snow has a different colour then wet snow. Melting, refreezing and remelting snow has a different texture and colour then fresh fallen dry snow. These factors also come into play on its reflectivity, and the available light that we must meter for.

When shooting snow or bright conditions, the exposure meter will try to make the scene meter to 18% gray or 12% luminosity (depending on how your meter is calibrated). You have to add EC to get snow back to white, else it will be underexposed and gray. Telling someone to add -EC for snow scenes is misleading. :)

Mark

[Bosscat]

This is why I don't spend much time on forums argueing with measurebators

I prefer to make pics then spend hours discussing it.

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/sunny.html

[Mark_Cohran]

No one is measurabating here, and I've taken just a few photos in my day. But it is important to know the principles of exposure control and your equipment. Didn't mean to make you mad, but whatever works for you.....

Mark

[Madweasel]

This is why I don't spend much time on forums argueing with measurebators

I prefer to make pics then spend hours discussing it.

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/sunny.html
At the risk of perpetuating this discussion (and let's keep it civil), your link above explains the root of the argument. It is talking not about closing from the camera meter's exposure, but from the 'Sunny-16' rule, where indeed the scene would be brighter in snow than otherwise under normal sunny conditions. And brighter by more than one stop, hence closing by one will indeed still give white snow.

I suspect in your snowcross pics the camera is trying to expose the darker areas, blowing the snow unless you dial in some negative exposure correction.

[Elizabeth44]

I've always had problems with snow scenes. I would always decrease my exposure because I assumed the bright sun and snow would end up blown out. I had a friend's wedding last weekend that I was asked to shoot. I was really worried about the snow scenes. I took some advice from POTN and instead of decreasing my exposure, I increased it by one stop. I was thrilled with the results. The second photo of the church was particularly bright with the sun reflecting off the snow and onto the white church. It may not be perfect but as I said, I was thrilled with the outcome.

[KenTT]

When shooting snow or bright conditions, the exposure meter will try to make the scene meter to 18% gray or 12% luminosity (depending on how your meter is calibrated). You have to add EC to get snow back to white, else it will be underexposed and gray. Telling someone to add -EC for snow scenes is misleading. :)

Mark

Thanks for the info Mark, I had wondered what had gone wrong with my exposures when we had some snow here in the UK the other week.

luckily I always shoot in RAW and convert later, so was able to add an extra stop or so.

Here is a before, followed by an after 1+ stop increase.

http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userimages/full/4/6351.jpg

http://www.midnightphotos.co.uk/userimages/full/15/6352.jpg

[Mark_Cohran]

I've always had problems with snow scenes. I would always decrease my exposure because I assumed the bright sun and snow would end up blown out. I had a friend's wedding last weekend that I was asked to shoot. I was really worried about the snow scenes. I took some advice from POTN and instead of decreasing my exposure, I increased it by one stop. I was thrilled with the results. The second photo of the church was particularly bright with the sun reflecting off the snow and onto the white church. It may not be perfect but as I said, I was thrilled with the outcome.

Thanks for the info Mark, I had wondered what had gone wrong with my exposures when we had some snow here in the UK the other week.

luckily I always shoot in RAW and convert later, so was able to add an extra stop or so.



Sometimes I actually do know what I'm talking about ...:)

Mark

[ScottE]

You have to be very carefull how you use exposure compensation because it means different things to different people.

Bosscat has provided a good example of light reflected from snow make everything brighter, therefore if you use a rule of thumb such as Sunny 16 you have to reduce exposure a bit because of the brighter light from reflected snow.

If you let the camera do evaluative metering and there is a large portion of the frame made up of white (blue, gray, pink, depending on sky colour) snow, the camera will underexpose as it tries to give the snow a neutral tone. In that case you have to overexpose to get the snow white and not underexpose other parts of the scene.

If you use the spot meter, you have to apply compensation based on the tone and colour of the spot you are metering from. Light toned objects such as snow will need to have plus compensation to make them light instead of gray and dark toned subjects like a black dog will need minus compensation to make them dark instead of gray. Colour is also important because some colours like red usually need more exposure, green is fairly neutral and violet or yellow need less exposure. In very tricky situations it is often best to take spot readings off of different objects in the picture. Meter off the brightest part of the snow and set exposure at plus 2 to avoid blowing out the highlights in the snow. Then meter off on of the darkest objects in the scene to check, without moving the exposure set at +2 on the snow, that it is not less than about -3 to avoid blocking up the shadows. Finally check a neutral toned feature and see if the exposure setting gives a reading about in the middle. On bright days in winter is is often impossible to get an exposure setting that will keep detail in both the brightest and darkest items in the picture so you often have to compromise as to whether it is highlights or shadows you want to lose.

[Bosscat]

Theres no sunshine in that photo, so its gonna be misleading

[Phil Light]

Sometimes I actually do know what I'm talking about ...:)

Mark

Ok, on very, very rare occasions! :D

I'm not going to go into a long dissertation but Mark, I agree with you 100%. My experience proves to me that you must EC +1 or +2 to compensate for snow. Otherwise the snow might be exposed nicely but your subject can end up too dark. The books I've read also back this up.

[Mark_Cohran]

White is white, gray is gray, and if you use the in-camera metering (as the OP was doing), it doesn't matter if it's cloudy or sunny. If you want white to show up as white you either have to take an incident meter reading, meter with a gray card, or add + EC.

The point of the thread was to answer the OP's questions, and that has been done adequately, so there's no need to argue about spot metering, weather conditions or other minutia that don't help with the original question.

Mark

[Bosscat]

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/snow.htm

[Mark_Cohran]

Quoting Ken Rockwell around here isn't going to gain you any points. :)

Mark

[Bosscat]

Quoting Ken Rockwell around here isn't going to gain you any points. :)

Mark

You remind me of alot of those guys on snowmobile sites.

[Stefan A]

The last couple of post have confused me as far as the poster's logic. Seems Bosscat has been refuting the idea of +1 EC but then posts a link supporting it. Then Mark, who has been supporting +1 EC responds to that link negatively (with a smily). So I don't know who thinks what around here :). Personally, I have taken the advise here and always add EC to snow shots. Snow looks good but then my sky is blown out. I'll figure it out one day!

Stefan

[Phil Light]

Theres no sunshine in that photo, so its gonna be misleading

My mind is nothing, if not open, and frequently it's not open. Would you post some examples with EXIF? I'd like to learn.

[Phil Light]

The last couple of post have confused me as far as the poster's logic. Seems Bosscat has been refuting the idea of +1 EC but then posts a link supporting it. Then Mark, who has been supporting +1 EC responds to that link negatively (with a smily). So I don't know who thinks what around here :). Personally, I have taken the advise here and always add EC to snow shots. Snow looks good but then my sky is blown out. I'll figure it out one day!

Stefan

At the risk of speaking for Mark, Ken Rockwell's opinions are not exactly taken as gospel here. I've read a ton of information on his website, looked at his photos, and personally I believe he has talent, but I don't buy into all of his philosophies about photography in general and learning photography. Sometimes I flat disagree with what he has to say. But to me that doesn't mean there isn't also good information on his site.

[snowyowl13]

I've been having similar problems with snow scenes containing dark objects. The advice that I was given on another forum was to take my reading from the snow not the object. I haven't had a chance to try this yet.

[snowyowl13]

Sorry, I thought that I was just uploading thumbnails. This is the first time that I've posted pictures on here.

[Phil Light]

Sorry, I thought that I was just uploading thumbnails. This is the first time that I've posted pictures on here.

They look great! Welcome to the forum!

[Bosscat]

The last couple of post have confused me as far as the poster's logic. Seems Bosscat has been refuting the idea of +1 EC but then posts a link supporting it. Then Mark, who has been supporting +1 EC responds to that link negatively (with a smily). So I don't know who thinks what around here :). Personally, I have taken the advise here and always add EC to snow shots. Snow looks good but then my sky is blown out. I'll figure it out one day!

Stefan


+ EC only works when its cloudy, as you have alot less reflected light due to cloud cover.

When its sunny, you have to go to - EC because you have alot more light bouncing off the snow.

You already admit to blowing out the sky by adding EC, which tells me your pushing it too far.

It also makes a difference what your shooting. A snow scene that is predominately snow, or a scene that contains alot of other tones in it, from highlights to deep shadow.

Look at your histogram and adjust accordingly as conditions warrant

[Papaw]

Snowlyowl13 - You have the best trick yet - just get the horse to look towards the light.
Welcome to the forum.

[2hoosiers1gem]

Sorry to just jump in here... I'm a newbie to this forum ( but not to photography!) but I am learning some interesting stuff in this thread! Before, I was either metering off my subject (and ignoring my meter when it went berserk after I recomposed), or if I was in a hurry and didn't have time to meter, I just shot in RAW and corrected it later. I am going to try the exposure compensation "trick" today, since we actually have a tiny bit of snow here in KY! Thanks to the OP for posting the question, it has been very helpful to me.

And thanks to the "debaters", for a very entertaining and informative debate! ;)

[Papaw]

Welcome to the forum and be sure to post your results. We seldom get snow in Texas and I have taken very few pictures with snow in the picture. I have started using EC more (+ on overcast or low sun conditions) and seem to get better results.

[Mark_Cohran]

For those of you confused by this thread, for references on shooting in the snow, check out:

Bryan Petersen's Understanding Exposure, page 23
Upton and London's textbook Photography, 4th edition, pages 110-123
Jack Neubart's The Photographer's Guide to Exposure, page 130.

Then make your own decision. It really all boils down to what you're trying to do with your photo. If you're shooting a snow scene (such as a landscape) and you want the snow to be rendered as white and not gray, you can:

1. Add +EC
2. Use an incident meter to measure light falling on the scene instead of the in camera reflected light meter which measures light reflected from the scene (and will underexpose the snow since it reflects more light than what the meter is calibrated for).
3. Meter on a 18% gray card.

If you're shooting a subject in the snow and you want the subject to be correctly exposed and you don't care about the snow:

1. Spot meter on the subject and let the snow fall where it may (probably blown out)
2. Use evaluative metering and add appropriate fill flash to reduce the dynamic range between your subject and the snow.
3. Use a reflector to add light to the subject to reduce the dynamic range between subject and snow.

Finally, as Bosscat said, use your histogram and adjust accordingly, but understand what you're adjusting for when you do so.

Obviously there is a difference of opinion here, so I urge you all to do your research and make up your own mind on how best to shoot these types of scenes.

Mark

[Elizabeth44]

I have plenty of snow around here. I went out and took a few in jpg format.
The first photo's info is:
TV 1/400
AV 13
+1/3
ISO 400

The second is:
TV 400
AV 16
- 1/3
ISO 400

Both taken in shutter priority. (I had been doing bird shots prior).
Is there a standard setting I should use to get better readings for this
experiment? It was overcast when this shot .
We have long winters here, so getting these shots perfected would be a great asset to me.

[Mark_Cohran]

Is there a standard setting I should use to get better readings for this
experiment?

Unfortunately, Elizabeth, there aren't any "standard" settings for anything. Shooting in snow is just like shooting any other bright scene in that you have to understand what's important to you and how you want to depict the scene. If you've read through this thread, you know my opinions and general recommendations as well as those of some others. I'f I'm shooting snow as a landscape, I add +EC to ensure the snow is rendered white, not gray. If I'm shooting people or other subjects in snow and they are fill the most of the frame, then I use partial or spot metering and let the snow's exposure fall where it may. In either case, I use shutter speeds, apertures and ISO settings appropriate to the subject, as well as using the histogram to refine the exposure settings.

Good luck,

Mark

[nadtz]

Heh, that Ken rockwell article says the same thing, start with +1 and work from there, not -EC.

[Mark_Cohran]

Heh, that Ken rockwell article says the same thing, start with +1 and work from there, not -EC.

Yes, it does.

I just now read the link, so I shouldn't have been such a smarty about the post, but Ken has espoused some pretty off the wall stuff in the past, so I didn't bother to follow the link since I didn't think Bosscat would link to something that undermined his position. That was my mistake for not being more thorough.

Mark

[Bosscat]

Yes, it does.

I just now read the link, so I shouldn't have been such a smarty about the post, but Ken has espoused some pretty off the wall stuff in the past, so I didn't bother to follow the link since I didn't think Bosscat would link to something that undermined his position. That was my mistake for not being more thorough.

Mark


It doesn't undermine my position, because one must consider what the object of the exercise is when one is shooting. Is it to capture a snowcovered landscape under bright sunshine, partial overcast, heavy cloud cover, or is it to capture an object with a snow covered backdrop?

Different settings will be required, depending on what feel and emotion one is trying to evoke.

Do you want faithful reproduction of the scene, or do you want deep rich colour, definition in the snow?

Ask yourself these questions, before you hit the shutter button, adjust according, rinse, lather, repeat.

[primoz]

Your misleading folks by telling them to open up on EC.

I almost always have -2/3 of a stop dialed in during snowcross shooting. Otherwise there is absolutely no detail in the scene.

In real life this is unfortunately not true. It might work for shooting snowcross where competitors face is under helmet and you are actually after shiny colors of snowmobiles, which is far from dark and difference between snow and neon green scooter is not all that big. But if you look better, you have no details at all in dark parts of snowmobil or driver.
Personally I don't shoot snowmobile races (we don't even have them around here) but whole bunch of skiing World cups. And there the only way is to over expose. There's too much difference between mostly dark(er) clothes and faces on one side, and bright snow on other. So you have to decide what you want... structure on snow and black skier, or properly exposed skier and blown out snow. And I guess answer is usually clear... if you are shooting skiing you are after skiers right? ;) So yes basically I go for properly exposed face and rest of it doesn't really matter. For example this one (http://www.photo.si/photo_show.php?imn=s_skiing_20070130nw_0073.jpg). Snow is blown out, I agree. But does it matter? Not really. What matters is skier and not that little of snow which is blown out. Unfortunately we don't live in perfect world, where I would have both extremes lit properly. It would be cool though :)

[dbiggs]

I too have tried shooting action snowmobiling and it is inded a real workout.I am always torn between metering the sled and shooting with those setings and blowing out the snow or setting up for the snow + 1.5 stops and getting dark underexposed snowmobiles. If there is another way to go at this please do tell. I have also tried Av witn 1 stop EC but then you get slightly gray snow and a slightly overexposed sled. I have also noticed if you use full auto that if you try to use levels to get the snow white it looks very unnatural and fake. Primoz shootong skiing and snowcross should have the same setup as far as I can tell can you tell me how you set up for shootong Skiing

[Samdiver74]

+ 1 EC to start
failing that get yourself an 18% gray card and shoot RAW.
also learn how to use Custom WB settings, you'll be glad you did.
I have just finished reading the book understanding exposures by Bryan peterson, it is a very informative book well worth the read.


One thing I remember about the histogram is this little phrase I thought up.
No one likes being left in the Dark so you'll be all right where there is light

Dark is spelt with 4 letters and so is left
Light is spelt with 5 letters and so is right

hope this helps

[Bosscat]

Here are two photos from last race

[Mark_Cohran]

Here are two photos from last race

Very nice shots!

Mark