How Can I Make This My Living?!

[Feardrops]

I'm desperately trying to become a photographer full-time.
Can someone that actually does that here let me in on how to break into the business?
Thanks!

-Cody.

[MJPhotos24]

Think it really depends on what you're trying to shoot...as well as having patience. Like any profession where you're starting your own business (because that's what it is unless you join a company) you need time to grow.

[wannasmaxx]

the short answer is to bring in more money than you pay out:lol::lol:

[MJPhotos24]

the short answer is to bring in more money than you pay out:lol::lol:
I knew I was doing something wrong!!!

[ssim]

Desperation is not a good motivator. It leads to poor decision making. You sound like there is a sense of urgency to this, why?

There is no magic to breaking into the business. It takes time and perseverance. You haven't given us much information to go on. What do you want to shoot. Is the gear list in your signature up to date? Have you done anything for pay yet.

I have written about my experience here before but don't have that thread saved. Many others here have shared their experience. Take some time to read through some of the threads in this forum. What works for me or my approach to this may not for you or someone else.

[liza]

Learn a great deal about business. That's the hard part, especially learning to market yourself. And be careful for what you wish. Although photography is fun as a hobby, it can become drudgery like any other job when you're obligated to do it every day.

[Bob_A]

I'm desperately trying to become a photographer full-time.
Can someone that actually does that here let me in on how to break into the business?
Thanks!

-Cody.

What is your background? Have you gone to college and taken any business courses? How experienced are you? How long have you apprenticed under a local professional?

oh, and good luck! :)

[JaertX]

I highly agree with working under a local professional and take some business and marketing classes at college.

I first approached a local professional that had very strong work, IMO and just asked if I could hold reflectors or sweep the studio or anything. Now we shoot weddings together.

Maybe get your favorite/best work in print and get it assembled in a nice portfolio and start fishing.

[freaking102]

Go to college, major in art.

[breal101]

I highly agree with working under a local professional and take some business and marketing classes at college.

I first approached a local professional that had very strong work, IMO and just asked if I could hold reflectors or sweep the studio or anything. Now we shoot weddings together.

Maybe get your favorite/best work in print and get it assembled in a nice portfolio and start fishing.

This worked for me.

[JaertX]

Go to college, major in art.

and get a job at McDonald's with 75% of all the rest of the art grad majors?

he did say he wanted in the business...

maybe minor in art though!

[justincase724]

First, I must admit that I do not do photography for a living. I hope that doesn't make my suggestion worthless.

Based on a few of your photos that I have seen in other threads, I would suggest that you get a few quality prints (maybe large prints on canvas) and try to get them in gallerys or exhibitions. Get your name out there and get people interested in your work. The only problem with that is that it will take time.

Your other option is to offer something that the masses want. Wedding photography is a great example. If you don't mind doing it, you can make a decent living off of it, and you could probably start just as quick as you could get a license (if it's required).

[sapearl]

I'm desperately trying to become a photographer full-time.
Can someone that actually does that here let me in on how to break into the business?
Thanks!

-Cody.

Sounds like me in 1973 when I got out of school and wanted to be a newspaper photographer so bad I could taste it ;) . Well, things didn't work out that way - too many photographers in the world, even back then, and not enough newspapers, magazines, weddings, fill in the blank.... you get the picture.

I would strongly suggest that you get some sort of "regular" job that pays the bills, and then leaves you with weekends and evenings free. But the important question is, what sort of photographer do you want to be? I sort of fell into wedding and social event work when I was still in school, so something that left me with my weekends when I entered the job force dovetailed nicely with that type of photography.

The regular job paid the rent and also fed my habit. I'm not a full time shooter, but do it enough that it gives me a tremendous amount of pleasure and fulfillment, and even leaves me with a modest profit after Uncle Sam takes his bite... not enough to support a family and mortgage, but enough to provide continued incentive.

The wedding pro's in my area break their backs making a living and I admire their hard work. I'm not talking about the high end photogs that get $15,000+ per wedding, but the regular working stiffs that can only charge $3 - $5k because that's all THIS market will support. They are doing 80 - 100 weddings per year, with studio work, portraits and other misc. stuff and not getting rich off their labors. It's tough work. More of us are part time "weekend warriors"
- Stu

[sapearl]

...........Wedding photography is a great example. If you don't mind doing it, you can make a decent living off of it, and you could probably start just as quick as you could get a license (if it's required).

I'm not aware that a license is required anywhere in the U.S. to do wedding photography.

[delhi]

A Pro told me once that photography is more fun as a hobby than a job.

[justincase724]

I'm not aware that a license is required anywhere in the U.S. to do wedding photography.

Business license.

[liza]

It's recommended, not required. And it depends on where you live.

[krazziecliff]

I think showing your work in competitions and galleries is a good start. Approach some professional photographer and ask him if he needs an assistant.
Dedication, hardwork and the desire to learn are characteristics that you will have to display on the job.
As for starting on your own. I think you are technically very sound, but the kind of work ur into (statement making), is not something that sells. You will have alot of people will stop, take a look, think, even debate the meaning, but not too many takers.
So experiment a little more. try to branch into a different direction. Make statements once you have established yourself, trust me you will realise that people tend to agree with your vision no matter what you lay out.

whats kind of photography interests u?

[sapearl]

It's recommended, not required. And it depends on where you live.

:o D'oh - I think I have wedding photography on the brain, and I was thinking it was THAT kind of license. In my state - and many others - it's referred to as a VENDOR'S LICENSE. If you collect state sales tax from your clients, then a vendor's license is required. You are then issued a Vendor ID#.

The license is very easy to get, you just fill out a simple form and file it with the state. It was so long ago that I got mine I can't even remember what the fee was.... maybe $10 back then. - Stu

[whiskaz]

A Pro told me once that photography is more fun as a hobby than a job.

Precisely why I’m hesitant when my wife and friends egg me on to start shooting for money. I already have a job that pays quite well and honestly prefer not being under pressure to meet deadlines, please clients and so forth. I love the hobby and I’m not sure I’d be as enthusiastic about it if it were my job.

As for the recommendation to go to an Art School… I’d recommend getting a degree in Business instead (as suggested). Color theory is great and all but… it won’t help you run a full-fledged business.

It's not going to happen overnight, regardless.

[MJPhotos24]

Precisely why I’m hesitant when my wife and friends egg me on to start shooting for money. I already have a job that pays quite well and honestly prefer not being under pressure to meet deadlines, please clients and so forth. I love the hobby and I’m not sure I’d be as enthusiastic about it if it were my job.

As for the recommendation to go to an Art School… I’d recommend getting a degree in Business instead (as suggested). Color theory is great and all but… it won’t help you run a full-fledged business.

It's not going to happen overnight, regardless.

I think business would be better than art school as mentioned. Reading a book about pro photography right now and man, the business end of it is amazing. Even though I've been doing this as a "business" for 8 years now I'm reading this thing going "holy ****!".

Anyways, just as a side note, I work my butt off in photography and up until last year every time I did my taxes I fell below what's clasified as "poor", even after 7 years (2007 being my 8th). It's a tough field to earn a living freelance, many do it as a hobby and find it interesting and think it's easy work. Those of us that are trying to put food on the table however find it a lot more difficult. I know one guy, a complete and utter (insert bad name here) that makes $100,000 a year in his normal non-photography related job, but then complains when companies don't use his photos. However, we shoot similar "things" (i.e. teams/players) so when the editor grabs his photo over mine it hurts me a lot more than it benefits him (he's got the big salary as I'm relying strictly on that usage). So his hobby is keeping food off my table, his hobby is keeping better equipment out of my hands, his hobby is keeping me from making a living just because he thinks its "cool" to have his name next to a picture in a magazine. Do I think it's wrong he wants his pics used, well given the circumstances in a way I do (since he's overly pushy about it but yet has that big paycheck every week). Long story short, you need to pick what and how YOU want to do things. I have a teaching degree, I can easily get a teaching job for a good salary - I CHOOSE to do what I do instead...struggle yes, improve every year in terms of knowledge and "salary", yes...get desperate for more, no. Simplest advice, create a plan and go after reaching it.

[AB8ND]

In one word

SHOOT

Shoot and study, study every form of art possible, dance, drawing, skulpture, everything, this will make you more creative. Find a specialty, wedding, sports anything, then be the absolute best at it that you can be. Then try to find a way to sell your work.

Jack

[sapearl]

I............., I work my butt off in photography and up until last year every time I did my taxes I fell below what's clasified as "poor", even after 7 years (2007 being my 8th). It's a tough field to earn a living freelance, many do it as a hobby and find it interesting and think it's easy work. ...... I know one guy, a complete and utter (insert bad name here) that makes $100,000 a year in his normal non-photography related job, but then complains when companies don't use his photos. However, we shoot similar "things" (i.e. teams/players) so when the editor grabs his photo over mine it hurts me a lot more than it benefits him (he's got the big salary as I'm relying strictly on that usage). So his hobby is keeping food off my table, his hobby is keeping better equipment out of my hands, his hobby is keeping me from making a living just because he thinks its "cool" to have his name next to a picture in a magazine. .........(since he's overly pushy about it but yet has that big paycheck every week). .......

I can only imagine how you feel - it's got to be frustrating and aggravating. And then on top of it this other individual who is fairly lacking in class rubs your nose in it, so to speak..... very annoying to say the least.

Seeing a photo credit next to my name is nice but not one of my main life goals..... certainly gratifying but not my driving force. I'm also one of the those part time weekenders (although are you still "part time" if you've been doing it for 30+ years :lol: ?) but I do it because of the way it makes me feel - creative, gratified and fullfilled.

I come from a family of artists. My dad was a high school art teacher and professional landscape painter, and my sister currently teachers college level art and puts on gallery shows. My creative ability is not on the order of theirs with pen and brush in hand, but it instead manifests behind the lens. And if I happen to get some public recognition as a byproduct, then that's a nice side benefit. Bottom line is it's one of those things that I discovered is an inherent part of my makeup.

Actually though, I get a great deal of satisfaction lately participating in this forum and sharing tips with a lot of very interesting people.

BTW Mike, I like the "Sports Illustrated" look of your website. I don't know if that was your intent, but it does convey a strong sense of flowing energy with some really good visuals.... nice layout. - Stu

[ssim]

Long story short, you need to pick what and how YOU want to do things. I have a teaching degree, I can easily get a teaching job for a good salary - I CHOOSE to do what I do instead...struggle yes, improve every year in terms of knowledge and "salary", yes...get desperate for more, no. Simplest advice, create a plan and go after reaching it.

Good post Mike. I can hear the frustration in your post and can certainly understand and appreciate it.

This industry is going to continue to be filled with the weekend warriors that will continue to drive the pricing down. This is a fact that those of us that do shoot full time have to live with and adapt to it. Your comments about wanting to put food on the table are very valid. I am always perplexed that these new entrants find nothing wrong with their pricing model. Their focus is getting published or a paycheck of any kind from this but they fail to see the harm they are doing to the full time shooters.

I've been fairly lucky in that I have been able to focus on corporate work and the majority of these customers do not like to use the weekend warriors. When I went door knocking last year, there were a few that wouldn't even talk to me until they knew that I was a full time shooter. Their point is that the weekenders cannot meet their time lines in alot of cases. They like the fact that I can shoot anytime anywhere and don't have to fit it in around a full time job elsewhere.

The key to success in this industry, imo, is to pick your target audience and key on that. While you should be able to handle a variety of assignments, you also need to learn to say no when the assignment is beyond your capabilities in either technical or time constraints. I have picked up a few assignments that were originally started by others but failed somewhere along the line. Learn your craft well and try to exploit that as much as you can. You need to be able to offer something unique, otherwise you are just another listing in the phone book.

I do agree that business schooling is a must. There are too many that ignore this fact and if they don't fail they come close to it.

[liza]

:o D'oh - I think I have wedding photography on the brain, and I was thinking it was THAT kind of license. In my state - and many others - it's referred to as a VENDOR'S LICENSE. If you collect state sales tax from your clients, then a vendor's license is required. You are then issued a Vendor ID#.

The license is very easy to get, you just fill out a simple form and file it with the state. It was so long ago that I got mine I can't even remember what the fee was.... maybe $10 back then. - Stu

Sorry. We just call it a tax number. :)

[MJPhotos24]

Stu - here's a good one. I wake up this morning and who's pic do I see used over mine...ha, good timing on the photo editors part!!

Anyways, the individual I'm talking about has no class. He's been reported as a "stalker" type by some players, treats other photogs like crap thinking he owns the stadiums, just a complete jerk. That's not always the case of course, I know some really great photogs in professional baseball. At least one other is a member of this board, off the top of my head I can name 6-7 really good guys and only 2 or so jerks. So at least the vast majority are good people.

I was a bit of a weekend warrior at first, but was doing it for myself only as a hobby. I didn't approach any companies for years just because I didn't want to approach them with "lesser" stuff and knew back then I wasn't good enough. Now, I know two guys who are great guys - BUT, there photos are far from great, but they insist on bugging companies trying to get in with them. Personally, how they do that I don't know and can only assume that will back fire. You can't tell a company you're giving them chicken salad when all you have is chicken sh**! Ah, another coach told me that one :)

It seems to many photogs, or "newbie" photogs just want there name in the magazine, or especially in baseball you get the autograph hound photogs who just want to be "close" to the players (even though they're not allowed to get autos). It's weird the reasoning behind so many photogs getting into it, and so many of them I've noticed are not in for creating a great photo or trying to make a career out of it, they are doing it just to say they got to meet so and so (obviously this is related to pro ball or something along those lines).

All of my family has some creative tool, 2 sisters were/are artists - brother as a musician. I have no talent in either (seriously, I'll pick up a guitar and prove it to you, ha). I always had a lil 35mm with me growing up in HS, just taking friends pics - when I see them now and tell them what I do it's a "oh yea, big surprise". So the recognition is nice when it's there, but I do it just to create and work. Always thinking of what I want and the next shot, even in sports I just don't stop thinking of what would make the next pic good. Those creative juices need to flow.

As for this forum, well it has DEFINATELY taken my photography to a new level. I've learned a ton on this board, last season was the first I shot after joining this board and everyone was asking how I was doing this and that trying to pick up tips, all the tips I learned on this board. A pro photog of I think 15 or so years had no clue what I was doing, of course he's just a point and shoot kinda "pro" anyways ;)

The site I drew it out on a piece of paper and knew the basic colors I wanted. So just got on the computer and started writing the html and testing different color schemes and designs. Once I got what I wanted filled it in with the graphics and sample pics. It took awhile to build, so thanks for the comments :)


Good post Mike. I can hear the frustration in your post and can certainly understand and appreciate it.

yea, a bit of frustration in those late hours. You are right, the prices are going down and down. I've noticed it big time the last few years with digital and everyone having one thinking they can do the same a pro can do. Unfortunately there's people in higher positions that agree with these people and give them business that should go to a pro. You'd think this would relate to mostly youth leagues and the likes but nope, I see card companies and magazines using the weekend warriors for some strange reason.

There used to be a loyalty factor, I remember when I first joined one magazine the photo editor explained very simply - we use this guy for these photos, this guy for these ones, etc. etc. (different leagues). He told me I'd get one league, and while he was the photo editor I did unless I missed a guy - but I was the first choice. Then he left, a new guy came in and didnt care - photogs went from 60 or so to over 150 as he just let anyone submit. First one he saw he used, didnt care the quality. Then he left leaving a mess and the new guy is still trying to clean it up. So, not always just the photogs, but the editors to need to step up and realize what they're doing to. I think it's more frustrating to have these editors do that more than the weekend warriors. These people are supposed to know while the weekenders are just doing it to do it. There's several articles I've seen and wish I saved on the subject.

Good to know some companies do that as you mentioned, want the full time guys who can adjust to there schedule. I know thats what one league asked me for youth, if I had to fit my schedule around anything else as they wanted me to be able to have rain dates, go to games, etc, etc. Other leagues (and publications or other companies) on the other hand don't seem to see that.

I 100% agree with what you said about target audience and being able to handle a variety, but know when it's beyond you. I've turned down assignments because I knew I didn't have what they needed (usually in terms of lighting or studio equip, etc). Lost a good chunk of change a few times that way because I don't want to go in and do a half-a$$ job. That's not going to help me in the long run, they're not going to bring me back and they're not going to recommend me, in fact all that can do is damage my reputation if I take on an assignment thats to "much" for me. However, let's say a league needs portraits done for sports - I know I can jump in and beat anyone in this area with the quality as almost all the companies just throw the camera on auto tell the kid to do something and snap away not giving a rats behind on how the pic turns out (hey its not there kid!). I can't do that, I'm to much of a perfectionalist, even though I never get anything perfect, ha.

Also, the book I'm reading now helps with the business aspect of things. Not for the beginner by any means, but a great read for the guys/gals who want to do this as a full fledge business...

Best Business Practices for Photographers by John Harrington

[marksmith]

If you really want to make money then first of all accept the fact that it's very difficult in today's era. People sell amazing photo's to stock websites for ridiculous prices like 20p a shot.

I worked in a photography shop and studio for five years at the weekends before I went to University. The pro I worked for was extremely talented and for weddings he was worth every penny compared to the competition. Do not under estimate how stressful this end of photography is. It's possibly the most stressful thing you'll ever do as there really is no room for error. In saying that, alot of people accept sh** photo's and pay good money for them. There's a lot of room out there for someone who's talented but you do have to work extremely hard because most people don't see the value in what a good pro offers.

I have a good understanding of what it takes to run a business. I have been advised that I have what it takes to consider a career from photography by a top pro yet I still find it very hard to see how I could actually market myself and my work to the extent that I could earn a living. Making enough money month on month to pay the bills really isn't easy!!

Business degree's are ten a penny. They teach you analytical and accounting skills but don't actually provide you with ready made businesses. You can hire help to get a bit of business knowledge and hire an accountant to keep everything in line for next to nothing. You need to do a photography or art course of some description. The lecturers know exactly how to make it as a pro as they have student year on year actually doing it. They know how to build your profile. They can identify what your good at and most importantly they can help you specialise. You need to have a specialism in order to succeed. My personal theory is that I need to get in to the finals of some competitions. This creates a reputation. Technical ability is something that competitions like 'Wildlife Photographer of the Year' complain about. They’re looking for something else. Something extra! This is why creativity is more important than business accument.

Try and do it part time at first to see if you have what it takes to produce work that people are actually prepared to pay enough money for that you think it's feasible to make a living. The real niche is creating a good quality and something that's different.

There’s also a lot to be said for your skill in either the darkroom or photoshop. If you can master this and provide quality then you instantly have a niche that a lot cannot.

Photography is a fantastic hobby and passion but once you rely on it for you income it can loose all it's edge.

I think you do have something differnet and special that you can offer someone. The first thing that springs to mind looking at you myspace collection is something like an album cover. This may be a good place to start looking for commission work and it's doesn't require you to give up current job in order to try it out. Photography colleges may be able to offer an idea of who to contact with your proposals. Cold calling is another but getting someone to take you seriously and getting past the 'gatekeeper' are difficult in any industry when you want to become a new supplier.
In summary, it sounds easy but it takes something special, commitment and a lucky break to make a real living out of something that so many consider a hobby.

[italianfemmy]

Wow, have I really not been on here in a week?

Cody, if you want to be a pro, I think you already have what it takes based on what I have seen of your work. I think you need to get the series sets that you have done and get them in a gallery pronto. If I was an art collector, there are many of your pieces that I would buy. But, I'm not. What I do know is that your work tells a story, a story that some will hate and others will love. Your work takes time to understand and means something different to everyone and that makes it art. So, I think you should focus on art galleries. This is just my opinion. You seem to really like the flexibility of going between darkness and the light and for this reason, I don't know how well you would do with weddings since the day is about the bride and groom and what they want... not what you want. I think you are more comfortable being in charge, orchestrating the whole day/the whole shoot and nothing is wrong with that. Just something you can't do with a wedding. :-) I wish you the best of luck. I for one, believe in your work.

[Yella Fella]

some interesting points, thanks guys

[Mike R]

I agree ith the others, Business courses will greatly help you, also consider Marketing courses. First and foremost you will need to be able to "sell" yourself as the photographer of choice.

[sfaust]

I believe that a business education is more important than the photographers creative education. Granted you need both, but you can be the most talented photographer and starve to death if you don't hone your business skills. On the other hand, you can be a mediocre photographer and make money hand over fist if you have the business acumen.

So I think the ideal person to succeed in this business is one that has a stronger desire to run a business, then their desire to be a photographer. Ie, they would spend just as much or more time reading up on marketing, accounting, doing competitive market analysis, honing their internal cost structure, then reading up on photography technique, equipment reviews, and articles on art and creativity.

Its so much harder to run a successful business than it is to do the actual photography, then you really need to focus more on the business end. And those that do will be far more successful IMO. Or, be very creative and talented, and willing and able to hire a business partner to handle the business end.

Photography is so competitive these days, much more than it was in the 90's. Everyone is putting out a shingle, and with so many talented amateurs giving away images for credit lines, .20 cent downloads, that revenue steams have eroded significantly. One really needs to hustle to get the good paying jobs, and enough savvy to convince clients that you are actually worth the fees that you need to keep your doors open.

It's nothing to get a credit line by giving your images away. Who wouldn't take something for nothing? But it a lot harder to get them to give you a credit line, and pay you $1,000 for the days work. But without it, you've got no health insurance, no retirement, no liability insurance, no studio or office, no funds for upgrades, equipment maintenance, office supplies, accountant fees, and so on.

Marketing, networking, careful bidding, are all far more important than ones ability to take high quality creative images. Because there are so many good photographers out there, that your edge and ability to survive will depend on your business abilities more than your creative skills.

It really is a buyers market, and will continue to be that way for the foreseeable future. Business skills are now the basic survival skills, and not creative skills like they were 15 years ago. When a client drops a photography job in the pool, there are 15 sharks going after it. The skills it takes to capture that job happen before you ever press the shutter, and those are the skills that will make or break you.

[mspringfield]

Be very careful what you wish for or you just might get it. When your hobby becomes your job it can stop becoming fun. A couple of month ago I was dragged to a movie called "Catch and Release". A very forgettable movie but I came away with a line from one of the characters, although I don't remember which one. The character was a hollywood director and he went to a local camera store and bought a digital rebel and started taking photos of various things around the area. He told Jennifer Garner's "I used to take pictures all the time." She asked, "Why'd you stop?". To which he replied, "Someone started paying me to do it."

I have a friend who owns one of the largest event photography companies in the country. He started doing it because photography has always been a hobby for him. Now he rarely shoots at all and almost never shoots for pleasure. I also found myself getting into that same rut. I started turning down jobs until it started becoming fun again. Now I do just pick and choose the fun ones. Fortunately for me I have a "day job" that pays the bills and my photography income just supports my "habit". However when you don't have that luxury it can be difficult.

Don't mean to throw a monkey wrench in your plans but you do need to know the down side.

Michael

[ssim]

Great post Stephen. All so very true. The industry for full time photographers is going down the tubes quickly and will continue to do so as long as there are thousands of photographers out there giving those images away for a credit. That credit is worth far less than they think it is.

Be very careful what you wish for or you just might get it. When your hobby becomes your job it can stop becoming fun.
This is also so very true and I can personally attest to it. I went full time a little over a year ago and while I am shooting a couple of days a week at a minimum, none of these are for myself. I used to love throwing the gear in the car or jumping on a flight and going somewhere to just shoot for myself. Now I don't do that. If I have down time it is spent promoting, catching up on filing or the dozens of other areas that need attention in a business. I really do miss the personal satisfaction that I got out of doing shoots for myself.

[August 15 Photography]

"but the regular working stiffs that can only charge $3 - $5k because that's all THIS market will support. They are doing 80 - 100 weddings per year"


Well Im no math pro, but if you get the middle number of 4k per wedding and you do 100 weddings per year, thats 400,000 a year, or just shy of a half million. That doesnt sound too shabby to me??????

[SuzyView]

Like any business you start and run yourself, expect the first year to be a loss and hope the second year is better. First, study what it means to manage your own business while you learn the art better. Don't give up your day job, because it costs about $10,000-$25,000 to get all the gear you need to really make money. If you are talented enough, people will like you. If you are a saavy business person with great talent, people will love you.

[liza]

Like any business you start and run yourself, expect the first year to be a loss and hope the second year is better. First, study what it means to manage your own business while you learn the art better. Don't give up your day job, because it costs about $10,000-$25,000 to get all the gear you need to really make money. If you are talented enough, people will like you. If you are a saavy business person with great talent, people will love you.

Wise words, Suzy. I'm up to 11K at this point with at least another 6K to go in terms of equipment and software. The most difficult thing is the constant marketing required to make a go of it. There's also too much competition out there from people who are willing to shoot a wedding for less than a grand or who will give a high school senior a CD of high-rez images for 25 bucks. I find that part of it the most disheartening.

[thesupe87]

I'm practically making a living on micropayment stock photography, aside from my dayjob of full time graphic design. I wish I could just switch over to the photography and be my own boss, but I could really use the income from both of my jobs right now, as I'm getting married in a few months and just bought a house.

Check out my summary of my experiences in my sig link :)

[liza]

The absence of benefits with self employment is another reason I can't give up the day time gig. I'm perfectly capable of making the same amount of money, but hang on to the day job for health insurance and pension. Twelve more years, and I can take an early retirement! :)

[SWPhotoImaging]

the short answer is to bring in more money than you pay out:lol::lol:


Can I quote you? :D ;) :lol:

[mspringfield]

"but the regular working stiffs that can only charge $3 - $5k because that's all THIS market will support. They are doing 80 - 100 weddings per year"


Well Im no math pro, but if you get the middle number of 4k per wedding and you do 100 weddings per year, thats 400,000 a year, or just shy of a half million. That doesnt sound too shabby to me??????


100 Weddings a year????!!! Please tell my how anyone can do 100 weddings a year? That is 2 weddings a week!!! Too many people have the absolute wrong idea about shooting weddings. Weddings are one of the absolute most difficult things to shoot. It is much more than showing up and shooting for a couple of hours and going home. There are meeting and prep work before, there is PP after as well as printing, creating albums etc. Doing a wedding and doing it right takes at least 40 hrs of work from beginning to end. You have to deal with stressed out people and god forbid you make some kind of mistake. I get asked to shoot weddings all the time and refuse flat out.

There is no way that the market can support a $3-5K wedding photographer. Maybe once you have been in the business for many years and have built a reputation then you might be able to charge $3-5K but certainly not in the beginning. Remember that everybody who owns a camera thinks that they are good enough to be a Pro and everyone of them are out there cutting the market price.

In 3 weeks I have a couple of friends who are getting married. They have hired a "professional" photographer to shoot their wedding and have put her in contact with me. She has done "several weddings" (their words not mine) and "is very good". She is shooting it with a P&S! She contacted me and asked me about borrowing my equipment and they have asked me to "bring my gear" to the wedding in case I decide I want to shoot a few shots.

Sorry guys, but being a "professional photographer" is not all of the glamour that people think it is. Its a lot more work than what you see. There are bills to pay, rent, insurance, etc. Ever price a million in liability insurance? That is what the insurance companies recommend that you have. Because at some point some idiot is gone to trip over your tripod, camera case, etc when they are not paying attention to what they are doing and then sue the crap out of you.

Again look at both sides of it. For every wedding photographer who charges $3-5K there are 15-20 who work second and 3rd jobs just to pay the bills.

Michael

[SuzyView]

I agree with many of the statements given here. Photography for fun is much different than photography for money. I enjoy all the gear I own, but dragging everything out with lights, tripods, reflectors, etc. for a wedding or large event is by far my least favorite thing to do. I love the taking pictures part and seeing what comes out, but that is not even half of what I do. The books, the billings, the marketing are always there and you can't escape any of it.

Yesterday we had Picture Day at school. Lifetouch came with 3 people, 2 to shoot individual pictures and 1 to shoot class pictures. I worked all over the place as a mother-volunteer. The owner came to check up on the ladies to see if they were doing their jobs. He looked stressed. He said it was his day to go around, he usually is too busy in the office to visit the schools. All the equipment belongs to him, but he never gets to use any of it, even the Nikon Digital that was used for the class pictures.

The moral of the story is, once you start having employees and start really making some money, you end up doing the business part of it and letting others doing the creative part. Just something to think about.

[sfaust]

The absence of benefits with self employment is another reason I can't give up the day time gig. I'm perfectly capable of making the same amount of money, but hang on to the day job for health insurance and pension. Twelve more years, and I can take an early retirement!

This is the classic case of either not charging enough to make a business work, or having the prices depressed so much in the market by semi-pros with day jobs charging just enough for their next lens, pocket change, or worse, a credit line.

If you calculate your prices from a business standpoint, you will include the cost of benefits, retirement, equipment upgrades, liability insurance, marketing costs, rent if you have a studio, sales taxes, professional fees (accountant, legal, etc), office expenses, future growth and expansion, and so on. Those are your costs, and need to be recovered or you are loosing money every time you work.

If there are a number of semi-pros in the area just covering for their time, their equipment, or credit lines, its hard for a working photographer with expenses to compete. When clients see a few photographers willing to do a job for $200 for the day, how can the working photographer justify more? And if they do it for $200, they don't make a dime, just cover their expenses.

Even if you look at the basics with studio rent, general expenses, cost to upgrade cameras, computers, maintenance on lighting equipment, liability insurance, taxes, and so on, expenses can be 24K-32K a year. On average you can only work 3 days a week, since the other two are tied up with admin, image management, marketing, taxes, accounting, and other duties, quotes and bids, networking for new work, etc, so you are looking at a fee of $175-$225 a day just to keep the doors 'open'. No salary, just the tools of the trade, a roof, heat, and phone, and basic legal and health benefits. No salary, no retirement fund, no rainy day funds, etc.

So if amateurs and semi-pros are charging $200 for the day so they can get their new lens, the market adjusts to this pricing over time. The pros have a tough time trying to compete, and some eventually fold while others move on to different markets with higher rates.The market depresses, and $200 a day is the going rate.

When the semi-pros finally decide its time to go full time and start their own business, they find the market prices won't support at the business they have been working toward once they factor in all the business expenses, benefits, salary, and so on. So they say the heck with it, and keep it has a hobby and move on to something else. In the mean time the cycles continues with new semi-pros entering the market, and existing working pros moving to different markets. It's an ugly situation and not getting any better due to the explosion of digital photography and microstock.

And it happens in the corporate world too. I routinely have clients come to me for photography work after they have tried to do it on their own. Most are mid-level or established companies, all with an employee or owner that thinks they can whip out product shots on white backgrounds, or semi-styled shots for their catalogs, brochures, or web sites. Once they find out its not as easy as it appears to get a good image showing accurate colors, textures, product details, etc, then it becomes my problem.

They had a reasonable budget to begin with to have a pro shoot it and get some nice images, but since they spent most of it on a digital camera, some lenses, lighting kit, shooting tent, and so on, now they want the pro to do it for peanuts because they spent all their budget on the equipment. So they end up shooting very basic images because they don't have the money for something more unique and interesting. They get average images for their brochures or web site, rather than some eye catching images that would significantly help their marketing image.

But on the flip side, these tend to become my best clients. They now understand what it takes to get good images, appreciate the professionals skills, and are more willing to pay for those skills. Rather than a client that assumes all you need is the equipment and a monkey to press the shutter, and it could be done by someone in the company if they only buy the equipment.

So if I can get them over that hump from blowing their budget on the equipment, they tend to be loyal clients that pay reasonable rates, rates that I can run a business on :)

Sorry guys, but being a "professional photographer" is not all of the glamour that people think it is. Its a lot more work than what you see.

Amen. 70% admin/business/marketing, 30% actual photography.

[liza]

Actually there are a number of semi-pros in the area willing to work for FREE. I'm not one of those people. My prices are in line, if not a bit higher, than the other photographers in the area. I'm continuously bitten in the a$$ by people who undercut me or just give away their work out right.

[mspringfield]

Actually there are a number of semi-pros in the area willing to work for FREE. I'm not one of those people. My prices are in line, if not a bit higher, than the other photographers in the area. I'm continuously bitten in the a$$ by people who undercut me or just give away their work out right.

I am in the same boat. I charge as much if not more than the Pros I know. I refuse to cut my rates to undercut them. In my experience it is not the semi-pros you need to watch out for but the advanced amateurs that are looking to make a few extra bucks. They know just enough to be dangerous.

I admire the guys like Sheldon, Stu, Mike and Stephen for trying to make it out there. They have enough to worry about without having a guy like me undercutting them. Someone else may be willing to undercut them but it sure as heck won't be me.

Michael

[MikeMcL]

Business sense, sales skills, and funding. Don't start any business broke or desperate... ever.

nearly every new business that fails does so because of lack of capital.

Being a photographer is only a tiny part of this business.

You can make a nice Nickel concentrating on pictures of kids. Baby pics, Sports pics, senior pics, etc... People always want a nice afordable picture of their kids... anywhere in the world.

It takes a marketing genius to put your name in front of the customer nowadays, especially with the proliferation of great prosumer cameras and millions of folks with an artistic eye.

Good luck. Don't be too hasty.

[sfaust]

Business sense, sales skills, and funding. Don't start any business broke or desperate... ever.

nearly every new business that fails does so because of lack of capital.

Excellent point Mike, and I should have mentioned that. When I opened up my commercial studio, I started with 1 years worth of expenses available to me, as well as the additional capital expenses I would need for updates to my equipment, and marketing. That came out to around $50K total (20K expenses, 10K marketing, 20K addtl equipment). Without it, I never would have made it past the 6 month mark, at which point I wouldn't have made my expenses.

[freaking102]

I am always perplexed that these new entrants find nothing wrong with their pricing model. Their focus is getting published or a paycheck of any kind from this but they fail to see the harm they are doing to the full time shooters.


The aspirants are doing nothing wrong. Why should they find anything wrong? Aspiring to get published or make a buck off of a hobby is not wrong. Free markets are ripe with opportunity for those that have drive.

Don't mean to sound harsh, but that's the way it is, whether you're an engineer, truck driver or photographer -- change happens and adaption is the solution.

[sapearl]

Very nice site Stephen - beautiful, moody work.

[Paul Tinworth]

It's threads like these which make me wonder if I'm pursuing the right thing. They're both depressing and inspiring at the same time! :(

[sfaust]

Paul, you do it because you just can't see yourself doing anything else. Not because you want to put food on the table, because there are much easier ways to do that, and make more at the same time. You can do both, but it much harder and you need to hustle all the time, and be a good business person.

There are a few good books that I'd recommend which go into the business end of things. I'll try to round up the titles and list there here for you and anyone else interested. Here are a few I have here at the studio. Some dated, but the info is still good.

Charles E. Rotkin - Professional Photographers Survival Guide.

Leslie Burns-Dell'Acqua - Business Basics for the Successful Commercial Photographer

Lou Jacobs Jr. - The Big Picture - The professional photographers guide to rights, rates & negotiation

ASMP - Professional Business Practices in Photography

John Harrington - Best Business Practicesfor Photogrpahers

Graphic Artists Guild - Pricing & Ethical Guidelines

I'll add the others later.

Also, read the ASMP, Editorial Photographers, and APA forums and articles on their web sites. LOTS of good info there.

[DocFrankenstein]

I'm desperately trying to become a photographer full-time.
Can someone that actually does that here let me in on how to break into the business?
Thanks!

-Cody.
Lower your living standard and dedicate all the time you have to selling pictures.

Voila - you'r a full time photographer.

[Paul Tinworth]

Thank you, Stephen. :) I need to stop being so easily put off!

[TheGreatOg]

I found this here: http://pixelatedimage.typepad.com/pixelatedimage/2007/04/advice_an_exerc.html

This guy takes awesome shots and is an amazing person to talk to. I thought his advice was perfect for someone just getting their feet wet and looking for a way to work towards being a "professional photographer."

[Bosscat]

I'm desperately trying to become a photographer full-time.
Can someone that actually does that here let me in on how to break into the business?
Thanks!

-Cody.

Your gonna have to go shoot on days when the weather is bad, when you are not feeling well, spend hours post processing, deal with people trying to get you to sell your product for less. Your gonna get rejections from editors etc etc.

It becomes no different then any factory job. Some days I just wanna toss all the stuff in the garbage and go work at a regular 9 to 5 job. I personally spend over 70 hours a week during snowcross season at this. A little less then that during MX season. The hours are no different then when I grew tobacco in reality.

But when people are drooling over your pics, and throwing money at you, it seems worthwhile. But its a struggle to get to the point where you are the "Go 2 Guy".

Best advice if you really wanna do this.

Produce stuff that blows them all away.

Start with photo comps. If you do well, you get a little confidence to dig deeper and improve. Thats the thing with this. There is no top of the mountain.

Never be satisified. You must always want and expect more from yourself.

[Jon, The Elder]

Lower your living standard and dedicate all the time you have to selling pictures.

Voila - you'r a full time photographer.

Beautifully and truthfully put !

[canuck88]

A Pro told me once that photography is more fun as a hobby than a job.


Exactly. That's why you need, in this order:

1) Business skills (including marketing)
2) Personality
3) Photography skills

[sapearl]

Very, very well put. A lot of folks overlook the "personality" aspect, feeling their talent and expertise will weather any storm. Wellllll..... that will get you through, but if you prove yourself to be a perpetual prima donna who's difficult to work with, that will eventually make it around to prospective clients. And that could make the difference between a contract or not.

Exactly. That's why you need, in this order:

1) Business skills (including marketing)
2) Personality
3) Photography skills

[xpsentity]

Digging up year old threads FTW!

Too bad about Cody really. He had some awesome concepts - everyone here just..

Well, nevermind. He can be found if you look other places ;)

[djscrib]

I think a fair number of people would say that the applicable things you learn in art school could be learned as a 2nd shooter, or on these forums even. Those same people are saying take business classes.

I would say as far as applicable Business concepts go, there is very litte of that curiculum that would apply to running a small startup business, and could easily be replaced by using forums and reading books.

In a standard business degree course you're not going to learn anything up-to-date or applicable about "guerilla marketing". Only certain sub-disciplines go into web design, accounting, taxes, law, etc. So overall I'd say business courses would consist of a bit of relevant info, and a lot of crap.

Anyhow I'm from the web world, so I don't deal with photographers much, but I do deal with a ton of freelance graphic designers. The biggest common mistake among these people is they've spent a ton of time perfecting their craft, but as business-people they are a total disaster.

Learn business first, and more specifically, learn Applicable business first.

Learn your tax advantages, while you're getting started they'll help provide a crutch to keep the bills paid. (Filing an S-Corp instead of an LLC can result in a Brand new 1D Mark3 in cost savings)

Find out basic legal stuff, releases, insurance etc. The things that will prevent a catastrophic lawsuit that will bankrupt your business, your family, your dog, etc.

Learn some basic web design, and no this does not mean a real fancy flash app. Clean consistent professional layouts, easily navigated pages, Search engine optimization, proper hosting your site stays up.

Guerrilla marketing, craigslist, ebay, microstock, flickr, forums. Ways to drive, or enhance business without spending tons of money.

Anyhow, in my opinion, a photographer with "A" photo skills, and "D" business skills is generally going to make a lot less money than "B" photo skills and "A" business skills.

[sfaust]

Lower your living standard and dedicate all the time you have to selling pictures.

Voila - you'r a full time photographer.

- or -

Spend a bit more on marketing. Run it like a business.

Charge the going rate for your work.

Voila - you're a successful full time photographer! :)