Shooting classical music concerts with Canon S3 IS camera

[xcgames]

Hi all,

I've been trying a long time to figure out how to shoot beautiful concert pictures and I can't seem to figure it out. I'm usually the photographer of choice (not professional of course) when my friends play an event, yet I have not been able to beautifully capture the moments. Please help me figure out how to take nicer pictures.....

The situation: normally I'm seated in the audiences and it's almost pitch dark. The stage is usually lighted by the stage lights and I'm taking photos using my Canon's 12x zoom.

The problem: Since everyone is moving on the stage, when I use a lower shutter speed (on shutter speed priority mode, 1/4 second), people come out to be very blurry, such as this one below,

http://xc-games.com/gallery/albums/photography/IMG_6652.JPG

When I use the sport mode on the camera, I no longer get blurry pictures but the color is nowhere as good, and a heck load of noise in the picture.

http://xc-games.com/gallery/albums/photography/IMG_6643.JPG


is there a way to obtain the nice & nature colors shown in photo 1 yet keep the clarity of photo 2?

thanks all!

[Mr. Clean]

Not really. You're examples illustrate the difference between IS and fast glass in a way. IS doesn't stop action. BUT, that being said, you can still increase the ISO a bit and use the IS of your camera. Try messing around in M mode, increase your ISO more than the first, less than the second. That should give you a good middle ground.
Your last option would be noise removal software, like Noise Ninja or the like. They work well, but they also remove some fine detail.

[JeffreyG]

A megazoom point and shoot camera is nice for the ability to get you shots at long distance, but it's very weak at shooting in low light without flash.

The problem is related to the lens and the sensor. Your lens is probably capable of f/2.8 or so on the short end, but when you zoom out to 12X I bet it can't go faster than f/4 (or close to that).

You need to be shooting a 1/60 shutter speed at a minimum for the fairly slow motions of the musicians.

A concert will be lit to perhaps EV6. With an f/4 lens at ISO100 this means your best shutter speed will be about 1/4 second as you noted. This is too slow and you got blur.

When you set your camera to sport mode it boosted the ISO setting to improve the light gathering ability of the sensor....the cost is a ton of noise. At ISO 800 your shutter speed will double three times (1/4 => 1/8 => 1/15 => 1/30) which is almost fast enough but the noise is intolerable. The very small sensor on all P&S cameras is currently why they have poor high ISO noise.

One of the biggest reasons people will buy dSLR camera's is to gain access to low light shots like you are trying. Something like a Canon 5D could shoot at ISO 3200 (another two stops faster than you shot at) with acceptable noise levels. You can also buy long telephoto lenses (like the 12X on your S3) with faster f/2.8 apertures.

The downside is cost, size, weight etc. dSLR bodies cost a lot of money. Long, fast telephoto lenses also cost a lot of money. They're all big and heavy.

I don't want to tell you to go buy an expensive dSLR system, but I will have to warn you that I don't think you will likely get the results you are looking for in that particular situation with the camera you have.

[liza]

I don't want to tell you to go buy an expensive dSLR system, but I will have to warn you that I don't think you will likely get the results you are looking for in that particular situation with the camera you have.

I concur with everything this poster said. When I first switched to digital I made the same mistake.

[Stefan A]

A quick run through a noise reduction and some curves fixed the picture nicely. Plus, the large size that you posted really brings out the noise. Is that the size you usually view your shots? Probably not - but even so, noise reduction software will help. Yes, you are limited in this situation with a compact camera. To me, this is one of the most difficult shooting situation. You need fast shutter speed to freeze the action but you have low light. Plus you can't use a flash in that situation. A lens with a larger apeture and a camera with better high ISO capability is your best bet. But a little PP will help until you get that.

Stefan

[xcgames]

Is DSLR camera really loud when taking a shot? I remember seeing a friend using one and i could clearly hear the shutter sound in an outdoor enviroment.... I'm not sure if that's usable in a classical concert.

Anyhow, I am actually thinking about getting a DSLR now... which canon would you guys recommend? and I guess more importantly, which lense kit should I get for shooting in this situation?

[Mr. Clean]

Yes a DSLR makes noise when shooting. The shutter makes noise and that's just a fact of life. Any current (past 2 years or so) Canon camera will work just fine but as far as lenses go in your situation I'd recommend the Sigma 30mm 1.4 and the Canon 85mm 1.8 for starters. I'm not sure you have to upgrade to get a better picture. Your S3 can do the job, not as good as a DSLR but it can be done.

[Andy_T]

Just tried to use Noiseware community edition on your sports pic, it's not perfect but a bit better than the original.
It was a 30 seconds job, maybe with a little experience and some time you could do a lot better.

You can download it free of charge at www.imagenomic.com.

If you also make your picture smaller and work a bit with it in PS, then I guess it should be very nice ... at least for viewing on the web.

Other than that, the only solution is investing some 700$ on a 350D and a 50/1.8.
That will give you dramatically better results because of the larger sensor and fast lens.

Best regards,
Andy

[JeffreyG]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is DSLR camera really loud when taking a shot? I remember seeing a friend using one and i could clearly hear the shutter sound in an outdoor enviroment.... I'm not sure if that's usable in a classical concert.
Yes, there is a noticeable click. People who shoot concerts and plays wrap their cameras up to muffle the sound.

Anyhow, I am actually thinking about getting a DSLR now... which canon would you guys recommend? and I guess more importantly, which lense kit should I get for shooting in this situation?

First take a look at what was achieved in this thread with noise reduction. You will notice that the noise reduction software destroyed a lot of detail in getting rid of the noise (the music scores fuzzed out and the musicians faces are pretty soft) but see if the images are good enough. Only you know what quality level you need.

If the S3 + noise reduction is not usable, a dSLR is the next logical step. For a beginner who is not a dedicated photographer I think we can skip the >$2500 5D and better.

The Rebel XT, XTi, 20D and 30D will all produce about the same images. They all have the same size sensors and near identical high ISO noise (for all intents and purposes). If you may become serious about photography then the 20D and 30D provide better handling and some nicer features. The XT and XTi are much cheaper, smaller and lighter. If you are on a budget then go for the XT.

I think the 30D may also offer ISO3200, but I'm not sure as I don't have one and I'm avoiding talking myself into buying any more gear. If yes on ISO3200 then this is a factor that might make it attractive in your situation.

As for lenses, I first need to understand what focal length lens you need. Basically, how close can you get to the musicians? In this case, when using the S3 can you tell me where in the zoom range you need to be to frame the musicians correctly?

The S3 at 12X is equivalent to 430mm on a 35mm film camera or 270mm on the XT (or XTi, 20D or 30D). If you are using the longest end of the lens then you will need a lens on an XT that goes to 200mm or 300mm.

The second lens question is how optically fast must it be. We know the venue is EV6 and assuming you get an image stabilized lens then you need to be able to shoot at 1/60 second or faster. At EV6, ISO1600, 1/60 you would be shooting at f/4. So you need an f/4 lens minimum.

As a rough guess then, a Rebel XT ($600 with 18-55 kit lens) plus the EF 70-200 f/4L IS USM ($1000) would be a safe bet.

If you can get close to the musicians, then the EF 85 f/1.8 would be a $300 option over the 70-200, but this lens is not image stabilized so you would be shooting at f/2 or f/2.8 to get enough speed.

Finally, there may be some third part lenses that would fit the bill as well for less money, but I'm not the expert on those. Perhaps someone else could suggest a few.

[sumptimwong]

I agree with the above posters. The best solution is to get a camera that will accept a faster lens. If you're on a budget, the 50mm 1.8 is the BEST value for a fast lens. The 85mm 1.8 is probably more suited to a concert environment, as it gives you a bit more reach, but it will cost a few times more than the 50.

Are you from Castro Valley?

[xcgames]

thank you so much jeffreyG for your professional response, I have a much more clear understanding of what equipment i'll need from now on.

I usually don't sit very close to the musician because in a concert hall, the first few rows are actually lower than the stage, so let's say about within 50ft. The particular picture was taken with maybe 10x zoom.

[SYS]

Because of my boys' participation in their Youth Symphony, I shoot lots of classical concerts. If you're planning on shooting more classical concerts in the future, yes, it'd be worth upgrading your gear. As for the shutter (mirror-slapping) noise issue, which has been and continue to be a real issue for me, I deal with it in two ways: 1) I take my 70-200 f/2.8 just so that I can stay as far away from the nearest audience if that's at all possible; and even then 2) I learned to shoot only when the music is getting louder (Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture when the canon balls are blasting is a great opportunity to blast away at my own "Canon" to help out the orchestra ;) )

[JeffreyG]

thank you so much jeffreyG for your professional response, I have a much more clear understanding of what equipment i'll need from now on.

I usually don't sit very close to the musician because in a concert hall, the first few rows are actually lower than the stage, so let's say about within 50ft. The particular picture was taken with maybe 10x zoom.

The 10X zoom means you are using the equivalent of about about 200mm on a Rebel XT.

Here is what I would get overall
Rebel XT with kit lens (18-55). Get the kit lens because it's cheap and covers a useful focal length range. You will be using this camera for more than just concerts.

Shutter speeds.
Without image stabilized lenses you need to shoot at 1/(1.5 times the focal length).
50mm lens - 1/80 minimum
85mm lens - 1/125 minimum
200mm lens - 1/300 minimum.
IS will allow you to shoot 2-3 stops slower than these guidelines, so an IS 200mm lens could be used at 1/300 => 1/150 => 1/80 to 1/40 acceptably.


We've already established that at f/4 and ISO1600 you can attain 1/60 shutter speed. This means you can get
1/30 with f/5.6
1/60 with f/4
1/125 with f/2.8
1/250 with f/2.0
1/500 with f/1.4

Lens choices:
Super budget - EF50 f/1.8 ($70). Plenty fast but waaaay too short. You would need to be within 15 to 20 feet of the musicians. This is like 3X zoom on your S3.

Budget - EF85 f/1.8 ($340). Plenty fast but probably still too short. This is like 4X on your S3.

Also - EF100 f/2 ($400). Plenty fast, maybe too short. This is like 5X on your S3.

And - EF135f/2 ($900). Too much money for what you get. Better choices in this price range below. 6X on your S3

EF 70-200 f/4 IS. ($1100). This is the best solution but not cheap. It will work at the range you need (200mm) and the IS will allow you to shoot handheld. This lens is a bit large and it's white so it is not real inconspicuous. There is a non-IS version that is $550, but then you would need a tripod at 200mm so no go.

In the same price range - EF 300 f/4 IS ($1100). This would probably work but there is no zoom and it's a long telephoto. You would have one strange kit with an 18-55 zoom and a 300mm prime telephoto. You would also really be relying on the IS pretty hard at 300mm and 1/60 seconds...you might get a lot of blurry shots. Not the best choice here. It's also big and heavy.

EF 70-200 f/2.8 IS ($1600). Why not? It's only $1600 right? This lens will do everything the f/4 version would and it would give you one stop faster (1/125) shooting. This lens would work the best of all we have considered but it is a lot of money. It's also pretty big and heavy.

EF 70-300 f/4-5.6 IS. ($550). Tempting because it is cheaper, smaller, lighter than the 70-200 f/4 IS and it comes with IS. The problem is that out at 200mm and longer it is one stop slower at f/5.6. I can't guarantee this lens would work for your situation because you would probably be shooting at 1/30 shutter speed.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Andy_T]

You might also consider a 30D to get ISO 3200.
It will have noise, but nowhere near that picture of yours.

Also, there's a Sigma 70-200 that's about 700$, a Canon non-IS 70-200/2.8 L at about 1200$ and the Canon 200/2.8L prime for about 800$. Those are all very valid options. You might bring a monopod to the concert to further help you with keeping camera shake at bay (same effect as IS, but a lot less expensive).

Best regards,
Andy