Master Photographer

[Advisor]

I drove by a studio and saw the name of the studio with the photographers name was followed by "Master Photographer." Does anyone know what that title means for him? Does he have a masters degree in photography, is this a status title in the photography field, did he come up with this title, or is this a marketing title? thanks-

[breal101]

Probably a Professional Photographers of America member. Means he spent a lot of money making prints and entering a lot of photo competitions. But to be fair most are excellent photographers.

[delhi]

Like Master Mechanic? I'm not sure photography is offered as a Bachelor degree let alone post-graduate. Maybe at the University of Canon.

I think Prince of Photography rings better.

[Advisor]

Like Master Mechanic? I'm not sure photography is offered as a Bachelor degree let alone post-graduate. Maybe at the University of Canon.

I think Prince of Photography rings better.


That's exactly how I felt about it when I saw it on the sign! - LOL - By the way, I'm a professor in photographry engineering... :lol:

[liza]

I think I would have snickered a little had I seen that sign. :)

[tcphoto1]

I can see the milk spewing out of my assistants nose;)

[rabidcow]

Laugh all you want, that is a rather prestigious title to hold. Master Photographer is a title handed down from one master to the next, it is not just a degree that you go to school to get, it is EARNED through dedication to the craft. I have had the honor to work with several Master Photographers and they know photography from every angle.

[DocFrankenstein]

Laugh all you want, that is a rather prestigious title to hold. Master Photographer is a title handed down from one master to the next, it is not just a degree that you go to school to get, it is EARNED through dedication to the craft. I have had the honor to work with several Master Photographers and they know photography from every angle.
I'd have to agree.

If it's a PPA master of photography, then their portfolios are... something to aspire to for the vast majority of forumites.

[delhi]

I resent the word Master Photographer! It's gender discriminating! What about women?! Mistress Photographer? :lol:

[Advisor]

I can see the milk spewing out of my assistants nose;)

you should've snapped a shot with your camera and posted it!:lol:

[Rumjungle]

By the way, I'm a professor in photographry engineering... :lol:

Can I be a Duke of DSLRs?:cool:
Seriously though, I understand about how it's passed down from a Master, but who's the first master? I mean, where does this lineage start?

[krazziecliff]

How does one decide when he can put it under his name?
What are the criterias?
does the previous master take a test?
If he does, what are the parameters?
What if my Master dies, do I inherit the title?
Do they maintain a lineage chart?
Is there a Masters Tree?
This is ridiculous in my opinion. Unless there is a fixed way of deciding, you can just put titles under your name.
I would like "Lord of Aperture" as my title...where do I apply?

[Rumjungle]

I think "Lord of the Focus Rings" has a nice ring to it.;)

[cosworth]

You are usually awarded Master of Photography status by both the Professional Photographers of Canada and/or the Professional Photographers of America. The IFPO awards such distinctions as well.

Laugh or snort you may, but it's a hard earned designation. It legitimizes our preofession and weshould be thankful someone actually set standards in this hazily and dubiously populated profession.

[rabidcow]

be thankful someone actually set standards in this hazily and dubiously populated profession.

Thank You. Joe Shmoe goes out and buys an XTI and thinks that he is god of photography. This makes it VERY hazy as to what a true photographer is.

[Advisor]

You are usually awarded Master of Photography status by both the Professional Photographers of Canada and/or the Professional Photographers of America. The IFPO awards such distinctions as well.

Laugh or snort you may, but it's a hard earned designation. It legitimizes our preofession and weshould be thankful someone actually set standards in this hazily and dubiously populated profession.


And I really don't mean to make a joke out of it, but the first time you see it on a sign or title it does look a little suspicious if you don't know the background on what it means. I figured that it had to be something legit for someone to print it on a sign... Thanks for clearing it up and obviously there is no intent to disrespect the profession- had to ask what it meant though. I would be interested in learning more on how you achieve it though...

[delhi]

Most importantly, what is the ROI? This is afterall is a business. I'd hate to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to join the association and then pay annual fee to keep the title unless it generates instant revenue.

[mace0002]

And I really don't mean to make a joke out of it, but the first time you see it on a sign or title it does look a little suspicious if you don't know the background on what it means. I figured that it had to be something legit for someone to print it on a sign... Thanks for clearing it up and obviously there is no intent to disrespect the profession- had to ask what it meant though. I would be interested in learning more on how you achieve it though...

Check out the PPA's website and your state's chapter too...

[parnelli_97]

Actually Mercer University in Atlanta GA offers a Masters of Fine Arts in photography degree program.

Like Master Mechanic? I'm not sure photography is offered as a Bachelor degree let alone post-graduate. Maybe at the University of Canon.

I think Prince of Photography rings better.

[thekid24]

We can joke all we want about the term Master Photographer, but to the normal Joe out there seeing the name "Master Photographer" might sway him to walk in and have a look, and possibly buy from the "Master Photographer". If it makes the guy money, its just a different marketing angle. And if he really is a "Master" well then he really shouldnt feel the need to display it in the title, his work should speak louder right?

[breal101]

:D :D :D The only title I want by my name is Powerball Winner.:D :D :D

[TheGreatOg]

The portrait photography field has four certification levels ranging from Apprentice to Master Photographer.

If I were a certified "master photographer" with my own portrait studio I'd certainly use that fact in my advertising. Its no small feat to achieve.

[fortinaa]

I can't believe people would laugh and make jokes without having a clue. Do some research.

http://www.ppa.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=123

If you're curious about it, make a phone call and find out what the guy with the sign went through to receive that designation. Or heck, stop in and ask him. He might just have a lot of wisdom to share.

[zacker]

Im a Master Photographer when In my camera club meetings! My name tag says so!!

[zacker]

How does one decide when he can put it under his name?
What are the criterias?
does the previous master take a test?
If he does, what are the parameters?
What if my Master dies, do I inherit the title?
Do they maintain a lineage chart?
Is there a Masters Tree?
This is ridiculous in my opinion. Unless there is a fixed way of deciding, you can just put titles under your name.
I would like "Lord of Aperture" as my title...where do I apply?


Wel it takes many years of training and guidance to become a tru master... And then you have to pass a series of tests to complete your training... like, snatch a lens cap off a falling lens with out touching the lens its self, going off into the woods with nothing but a camera and 50mm f1.8 and bringing back a number of certain photos, one of the underside of a bear and another of a rattle snakes rattle with motion blur..stuff like that. Then you must also demonstrate a will and an Honest desire to become a true master and pledge to up hold the incredible powers that come with it.

ARE YOU READY? :lol:

[ssim]

Most importantly, what is the ROI? This is afterall is a business. I'd hate to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to join the association and then pay annual fee to keep the title unless it generates instant revenue.

I don't know of many trade associations that relate to "instant revenue". It is hard to say that by belonging to a professional association that it is going to generate revenue or not. I have had potential customers ask me if I was a member of PPOC. It goes so far beyond joining something that you hope will generate revenue. There are opportunities for learning, for mastering your craft. Laugh as you might I worked for one photographer that had attained his master designation and I knew one other one. They had such beautiful work that few could touch. For the one, you had to book a wedding at least 18 months in advance and be prepared to part with 8-10K. He was booked solid. Did this result from the master designation, who knows.

This whole process is nothing to laugh at. It takes years to attain it and alot of hard work. I don't know anyone that does not appreciate the recognition of his peers either.

[Hawg Hanner]

If it is handed down from one photographer to another, who was the first Master Photographer and how did he obtain the title?

I tell you want, send your portfolios to me and I will decided who is a master photographer and who is not. you then will have the right to name another Master Photographer. For an additional $1000 (and of course, if you qualify) I can name you Master Cum Laude Photographer, essentially rendering you better than ALL existing Master Photographers. I will even give you a nice certificate and frame if you wish. Coffee mugs are extra.

[DocFrankenstein]

If it is handed down from one photographer to another, who was the first Master Photographer and how did he obtain the title?

I tell you want, send your portfolios to me and I will decided who is a master photographer and who is not. you then will have the right to name another Master Photographer. For an additional $1000 (and of course, if you qualify) I can name you Master Cum Laude Photographer, essentially rendering you better than ALL existing Master Photographers. I will even give you a nice certificate and frame if you wish. Coffee mugs are extra.
That probably won't work if people see your portfolio of travel pictures.


Just search for the portfolios of master photographers and you'll see that they're in a different league.

[Croasdail]

Most importantly, what is the ROI? This is afterall is a business. I'd hate to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to join the association and then pay annual fee to keep the title unless it generates instant revenue.

really.... what's the ROI? Yeah, that's why anyone does photography because by the hour it is a high paying job.... Not. To some, photography is an art - not a business - even if they make their living doing it. It is sad that picture snappers are dilluting what it means to be a photographer. Sorry, I have little patience for those who mock those who put out the effort to become the best at what ever they do.

[cosworth]

I want to get married. Do I choose Nancy and her 300D who charges $500 or do I go see Memories Forever who has 2 "Master Photographers" on staff and they charge $2500?

As a business owner, what busienss do you want to be running. The ROI here isn't clear, but it's the cost of doing business at that level. They may be no return, but there would be signifcant "prevention of loss" of revenue.

[Hawg Hanner]

That probably won't work if people see your portfolio of travel pictures.

Thanks for the compliment. Same could be said of your portfolio as well.

That said, my offer still stands.

[DocFrankenstein]

Thanks for the compliment. Same could be said of your portfolio as well.

That said, my offer still stands.
Nobody's even buying my stuff... let alone pays for my opinion.

[Hawg Hanner]

No one buys my stuff either...and I offer my opinion for free.

[Croasdail]

Hawg.... I know you were offering much of what you said in jest, but there really is a need to know who really knows what they are doing versus those who shoot enough that the get the occasional keeper. If your out hiring a pro to shoot a specific person, often you will have a very small window of that persons time. And most often, you won't have control of the environment your are shooting in. A "Master" is someone one who can go into that situation, take just a few minutes to setup the lighting to match the environment, shoot very economically with the subject, and then get out to there. Many of us do come up with the random great shot. There is nothing random about when a master comes up with a shot. The do so reliably - regardless of conditions - over a long period of time. The same holds true in construction, a master carpenter can be asked to take on just about any project and produce reliable results every time. Sure you can find plenty of people who can handle basic carpentry, but are you willing to risk that on a project where your working with expensive and rare materials. If your spending big dollars on a project - you want to know your hiring someone who has passed a bit more of a peer review then some at a-boys from people on the web.

So while you offer is very generous, I think I would like to work to something a little more substantial. Cheers.

[mknabster]

Like Master Mechanic? I'm not sure photography is offered as a Bachelor degree let alone post-graduate. Maybe at the University of Canon.

I think Prince of Photography rings better.

Actually, if you have ever heard of Marywood University in the upper Poconos, they offer photography as a Masters degree. But i'm going to Cabrini college for a bachelor's in graphic design, just to be well rounded.

[Hawg Hanner]

Of course my offering was in jest...it just seems like a silly monicker to me.

A photographer is a "master" not by virtue of his or her title, but virtue of his or her body of work. There are several examples of photographers who have had very little formal training and are world reknown. On the other hand, there are many "pros" who had years of training and I could take better photographs than them. The point is that all a prospective customer needs to do is look at their body of work (and their price) and determine how much of a master they truly are. And one does not need to be a photographer (much less an experienced one) to know what a good portfolio looks like.

[Croasdail]

I agree with 95% of what you say here... but I disagree that any joe blow knows what makes up a great image. Some of the elements are so subtle. When I have had the chance to have a true pro look at my work, they are often able to see areas that could have been done better, burned in, dodged, cropped better, added or reduced contrast. You get the idea. The difference between a truly great photo versus the masses of "good" photo's is in the subtle details - something that the joe off the street would feel but not able to explain.

Looking at your work, you absolutely have an eye. Some of it is very good. But the jump to a master level in any artistry is a logrhythmic one. Lots of people can paint well, perform music, but not many achieve the validation of peer review to obtain the level of master. I am by now way close to a master. My work doesn't stand out from the pack of all the other photographers out there. I would love to achieve that status one day, but that is a long way off. A masters print is something this is still being looked at some 50 years down the road, not tossed in the rubbish bin when the next issue comes out. I don't think you will find much here on these pages, or any of the free sites that reach that level or durability.

[DocFrankenstein]

I agree with 95% of what you say here... but I disagree that any joe blow knows what makes up a great image. Some of the elements are so subtle. When I have had the chance to have a true pro look at my work, they are often able to see areas that could have been done better, burned in, dodged, cropped better, added or reduced contrast. You get the idea. The difference between a truly great photo versus the masses of "good" photo's is in the subtle details - something that the joe off the street would feel but not able to explain.
They don't have to explain it though. Sure - you'll benefit from a detailed explanation of the professional, but in the end your target audience will be non-photographic.

It's the public which will either raise or drop the finger on you.

[cosworth]

Of course my offering was in jest...it just seems like a silly monicker to me.

A photographer is a "master" not by virtue of his or her title, but virtue of his or her body of work. There are several examples of photographers who have had very little formal training and are world reknown. On the other hand, there are many "pros" who had years of training and I could take better photographs than them. The point is that all a prospective customer needs to do is look at their body of work (and their price) and determine how much of a master they truly are. And one does not need to be a photographer (much less an experienced one) to know what a good portfolio looks like.

Ok, I'll go buy all the latest medical books and study hard as hell. I'll do a lot of surgeries on people who are happy with my work. Want me to operate on you?

Similar, but understand being good or perceived as good is even sweeter if you are certified as knowing what it takes to be good.

You get it if you derive your income from photography. I'd love to be a master photographer and certified therein. But I'm just a hack right now trying to build a "body of work" and find my specialty that people can recognize as "my work".

I'm jealous of people who get to go to school for it and get classically trained and/or certified as a master down the road. If I could go back in time I would have been a photographer RIGHT outta school.

[sfaust]

A photographer is a "master" not by virtue of his or her title, but virtue of his or her body of work.

Exactly. And worse, if you aren't a member of the PPA, then you can't be a master regardless of the quality of your work. So that leaves out working members of ASMP, EP, WPI, and other organizations. And there are photographers in those organizations that are equal to, and many better than PPA members who call themselves masters. So the designation really has little value outside of the PPA. Much like AAA can designate you to be a master driver, yet it has little meaning outside of that organization to police, insurance companies, state DMVs, etc.

Ask most people looking for a photographer what the PPA is, and they can't tell you. Nor can they tell you what Master Photographer really means. And there is nothing stopping anyone from calling themselves a master photographer if they think the title fits, regardless if they are right or wrong, a PPA member or not, or worthy of the title.

Having a mandatory professional certification criteria would really help the industry, and add meaning to various certification levels. But who wants more bureaucracy either. Double edged sword :(

[Hawg Hanner]

I agree with 95% of what you say here... but I disagree that any joe blow knows what makes up a great image.

I didn't say Joe Blow knows what MAKES a great image. What I said was the average person knows a great photograph/portfolio when they see one. I may alienate some pros by saying this (no offense), but I care more whether Joe Blow likes my photographs than what Mr. Master Photographer thinks. Sorry, but before I picked up a camera for the first time two years ago I could tell you what a great photograph looked like. I didn't need to understand aperture, shutter speed, DOF, etc. to pick a photograph that more people than not would appreciate.

True, I may want then opinion of a professional photographer when it comes to HOW I achieved my results, but as a whole, I don't care as much about what he or she thinks about the photograph itself. I hope everyone understands what I mean.

I also feel professional photographers (maybe not the masters) are often jaded and too influenced by their experiences (or lake thereof). I have some insight into this lately because lately I have been shopping for a "pro" to shoot my wedding in September.

[Hawg Hanner]

Ok, I'll go buy all the latest medical books and study hard as hell. I'll do a lot of surgeries on people who are happy with my work. Want me to operate on you?

We are not talking about brain surgery here, folks. We are talking about an artistic medium. While I believe almost anyone can be trained to be a "good" artist in almost any medium with enough effort, I also believe the "great" artists are born or created through other life experiences that can't be taught in a book or classroom. IMHO artistry is far more intrinsic and not nearly as technical. And therein is one of the problems with these gear-related forums...much of the emphasis is on this setting or that lens, and not as much on the theory of composition, aesthetics and design. While a combination of the two are necessary in the world of digital photography, the ability to coneptualize a scene and then portray it in an image is much more necessary than the nuts and bolts of photography.

Hand me a pile of your contact sheets and a portfolio of your work and I will tell you if you are a good photographer or not. I don't need a book to tell me that.

[Hawg Hanner]

BTW, this is the first truly 'fun' conversation I've had on these boards in weeks. Forgive me if I'm being a bit too philosophical.

[Croasdail]

We are not talking about brain surgery here, folks. We are talking about an artistic medium. While I believe almost anyone can be trained to be a "good" artist in almost any medium with enough effort, I also believe the "great" artists are born or created through other life experiences that can't be taught in a book or classroom. IMHO artistry is far more intrinsic and not nearly as technical. And therein is one of the problems with these gear-related forums...much of the emphasis is on this setting or that lens, and not as much on the theory of composition, aesthetics and design. While a combination of the two are necessary in the world of digital photography, the ability to coneptualize a scene and then portray it in an image is much more necessary than the nuts and bolts of photography.

Hand me a pile of your contact sheets and a portfolio of your work and I will tell you if you are a good photographer or not. I don't need a book to tell me that.

Yeah.... but were not talking about validation from a book, or grading on a curve. What we are talking about is a review over time by your peers of your portfolio and "contact sheets" that validates that you have reached a level of creating on a consistant level, and that you have become a master at what you do. I portfolio on the hand by itself is less meaningfull. It shows the best of your best, sure. But it says nothing to how consistently you produce work to that level.

For example, I shot mostly sports. I do so because I don't have an artistic bone in me. If someone were to say show me 20 of shots that are examples of your work in sport x, depending on what that sport is, I might have to kull through years of work to come up with some standout examples. Other sports, I might be able to come up with 20 shots from a single event. More proof I am not a master.

When you are hiring a photographer for an event that is singular in a point in time, that there is no reshoot, like shooting a portrait of someone of note, and you only have 15 minutes with that person, you want to know the the photographer can shoot 20 standout shots out of 30, not 20 good shots out of 200 or 2000, or 20,000. That is what the title "master" gives you.

But I agree with you - there is production photography - which is what I do, and there is artistic photography - which I wish I could do. Some of can be learn, but more of it is from the gutt or heart.

[cosworth]

If art had the technical complexity of photography I could concur. Alas I cannot.

[Hawg Hanner]

All good points, but that's why I also said that I would want to see their contact sheets in addition to their portfolio. I don't deny that the name "Master Photographer" means something; I'm sure it does. But to the average consumer either they are going to like their images or they are not. And I think even you would agree there are many photographers out there who perform to the level of a so-called "Master Photographer" on a very regular basis without the title.

[Croasdail]

Actually I wouldn't agree. I think the term Master should be special. It should be applied to someone whose work stands out on it's own, is identifiable by it's nature. There are surely plenty of really good photographers out there... some very very good. But not many who'se work just stands out to the point or reaching the level of master. That you go... that photo looks like (fill in the name) took it.

I wish we could see the photographers in question work to see if it really is that of a master, or is just really good and the title has been over used.

[cosworth]

Just an observation Hawg, but you've placed a lot of emphasis on seeing and possibly critiquing someone's portfolio online or w.h.y. in recent threads.

Not all my "best" work is posted due to copyright agreements I have with people or due to me protecting some works I "peddle". I'm sure others do the same.

Also what I perceive as my best shots and what ARE (collectively judged) my best shots for people to critique may not be in alignment. Others do the same I'm sure.

[Hawg Hanner]

Actually I wouldn't agree. I think the term Master should be special. It should be applied to someone whose work stands out on it's own, is identifiable by it's nature. There are surely plenty of really good photographers out there... some very very good. But not many who'se work just stands out to the point or reaching the level of master. That you go... that photo looks like (fill in the name) took it.

Then you and I may have to agree to disagree. While I agree the term "Master Photographer" should be (and probably is) special, I don' feel it is something the PPA has a monopoly on. I will maintain that there are established photographers out there who are every bit as good as the "Master Photographers" you speak of...they just don't have a shingle of their own that says so.

[Hawg Hanner]

Just an observation Hawg, but you've placed a lot of emphasis on seeing and possibly critiquing someone's portfolio online or w.h.y. in recent threads.

Not all my "best" work is posted due to copyright agreements I have with people or due to me protecting some works I "peddle". I'm sure others do the same.

Also what I perceive as my best shots and what ARE (collectively judged) my best shots for people to critique may not be in alignment. Others do the same I'm sure.

I do not think I have placed an emphasis on being able to critique someone's portfolio or photographs...not openly at least. I just believe a person who critcizes another's photographs and/or opines about someone elses choice in gear is suspect if they hide their own work from public view.

Let's face it; there are a lot different skill levels on this and other photography web sites. There are 'pros' who have a bad portfolio and 'newbies' who are exhibiting some truly stunning work. Nonetheless, anyone who hides his or her work from public view and then posts 7000+ messages on this board without shedding some light on their own work is a coward (or hiding something).

As I said in a previous post, I don't opening tell someone their photos suck; I don't think I have ever done that. We all have different levels of experience, different backgrounds, and different gear. To do so would be rude. But having some context would be helpful.

I understand your best work might not be available, but that doesn't matter, especially when looking at your portfolio, because you certainly have enough experience and wonderful work to back up whatever you claim.

[Croasdail]

I will maintain that there are established photographers out there who are every bit as good as the "Master Photographers" you speak of...they just don't have a shingle of their own that says so.

And actually, most true masters in any area of art don't need to tell people they are master, it is well known and very evident. But the PPA is an industry organization aimed at more production oriented photographers where being a master photographer is akin to being a master mason or master carpenter. It is just a simple industry recognition of a level of achievement and demonstrated skill. An artistic master is something entirely different and is not proven through a piece of paper. Same term, different intents.

[sfaust]

It is just a simple industry recognition of a level of achievement and demonstrated skill.

Its not an industry recgonition, but and organizational designation by the PPA. None of the other organizations, such as the ASMP, WPI, EP, PSA, ASPP, or the industry as a whole recogonize it as anything other than a PPA specific designation for their members only. Their membership of 17,000 photographers worldwide is only a very small segment of the industry as a whole.

For PPA members, its significant. But ask a client who the PPA is, and what designations they have (certified, master, etc), and I'll bet 95% will have no idea. I think the designation means more in a photographer to photographer situation, than it does in consumer circles.

[RgB]

I guess it's like a master craftsman. basically they can do anything in their field perfectly and are as good as it gets and usually have around 30 years experience or more. They should understand the language of light and shadow and be able to translate it into any photograhpy language :lol:

It should be anyway. just like Steven Spielberg might be considered a master film maker.

[RgB]

Its not an industry recgonition, but and organizational designation by the PPA.

Stephen I really like your style and work!

[cdifoto]

I agree with 95% of what you say here... but I disagree that any joe blow knows what makes up a great image.

Kinda makes it all moot then doesn't it? At least if you consider it from a business perspective. If your customers don't see a "problem", it's not really there.

Not that I dismiss the hard work. I just don't think it's the end all be all. Maybe because I'm more interested in a saleable image than bragging rights or a monicker. The same Joe Blow that doesn't know a great image isn't gonna know Master Photographer as anything more than a marketing ploy. If a great image by the certification standards isn't great image by Joe Blow's standards, Master Photographer won't get Joe's money.

And personally if I was only in it for pleasure, I wouldn't care to be a Master Photographer in the first place. I'd shoot and enjoy my own ignorance. After all, I'm doing it to please myself.

I guess you could say I consider it more like the top cub scout badge than anything else.

Just my 2 cents.

[krazziecliff]

Kinda makes it all moot then doesn't it? At least if you consider it from a business perspective. If your customers don't see a "problem", it's not really there.

Not that I dismiss the hard work. I just don't think it's the end all be all. Maybe because I'm more interested in a saleable image than bragging rights or a monicker. The same Joe Blow that doesn't know a great image isn't gonna know Master Photographer as anything more than a marketing ploy. If a great image by the certification standards isn't great image by Joe Blow's standards, Master Photographer won't get Joe's money.

And personally if I was only in it for pleasure, I wouldn't care to be a Master Photographer in the first place. I'd shoot and enjoy my own ignorance. After all, I'm doing it to please myself.

I guess you could say I consider it more like the top cub scout badge than anything else.

Just my 2 cents.

I second his opinion. If there is no definite way of "earning" the title, its nothing but a marketing gimmick. Specially if as the OP mentioned, its written along with his name, a true master wouldnt have to stoop that low....his name would be synonymous with exceptional photographs.
As I understand, it seems like this title is handed down through a Photographic Society which on its own is an exclusive club and you could even go far enough and call it Elitist.
Until there is a standard set and a defined way of achieving this title, I think the whole "Master Photographer" thing is just a marketing gimmick.

[Croasdail]

So is the general consensus then that industry organizations are just "marketing gimmicks"? In my day job, I run a group that manages companies IT infrastructure. We are now asking our Project Managers to become certified by the PMI (Project Management Institute). I guess some of it is marketing, but we are also doing so to make sure there is commonality across all our projects so that no matter who is assigned to a project, the customer has a comfort level that the person managing the project is using common terminalogy and methodology. When I was a program manager for a major aircraft manufacture, we supported several industry groups that certified the skills of the engineers and technicians that worked on the aircraft. Perhaps we were just being Elitist... as you say. The funny thing is professional artestry if full of organizations and guilds, which I guess you could say are elitest - I have done work for the CMA, and yes I guess they do look to their members to have some basic skills before they join.

I don't think people get these awards of achievement to better market themselves. But I don't see anything wrong with working to achieve them, and displaying your achievement proudly either. We talk here about the customer as though it were a generic one size fits all. That is why there are many different organizations aimed at different target audiences. PPA is good for some, not so much for others. It is neither good, nor bad. But no matter the organization, peer review and recognition is a good thing... IMHO.
I don't belong to the PPA right now, but I would hardly consider it Elitist. To be elitist, there would be some form of barrier to entry, for which there is none. So I am not really sure where that whole train of thought comes from. Anyone can join, any one can do the work, anyone can achieve levels of recongnition....anyone. If you don't want to do the work, that is your choice, not something someone is keeping you from.

CDI... I sort of see what your are talking about. One of the other things I do as an aside is I build commercial buildings. An area we hire "master" carpenters for is doing out the trim work for the modlings, etc. The average joe blow off the street may not notice the difference, after you putty and paint. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference, just because they didn't notice it. 9 out of 10 don't notice it. But we are not biulding for them. We build for the person who wants the work done right, that will pay a premium to have real wood surfaces, that appreciate they will not have gaps show up in the joints. We pay extra to have the work done right. We also get a much hire margin when we lease out the properties as well. We don't care about joe blow - honestly. They are not our market. The don't have the money to spend. It's the same thing with my car... it goes to a master mechanic trained on my car, not the average joe. I buy collectable cars. Most would not see the difference between an average car, and one that has been restored correctly. The value difference between a Shelby that has been restored by a craftsman versus one that has been done by a weekend warrior is about double the price.

Call it a "cub scout badge" if you like, and no, I guess 9 out of 10 don't know the difference. 9 out of 10 love to eat at Ruby Tuesdays or Chili's.... I do notice the difference and enjoy eating from a "master" chef. There is one local resturant that we enjoy that does have a recognized master chef. we don't eat there because he is a master chef, but we can tell the difference that he is a master chef. There are also those that buy wine from the grocery store... don't care about "master" wine makers. There are plenty who do know the differnce. Perhaps it is all marketing, but I beleive there is some substance there too. Nothing wrong with wine from a box if you don't taste the difference. Buy it, and enjoy it. But that doesnt' mean there isn't a difference.

[cdifoto]

So is the general consensus then that industry organizations are just "marketing gimmicks"? In my day job, I run a group that manages companies IT infrastructure. We are now asking our Project Managers to become certified by the PMI (Project Management Institute). I guess some of it is marketing, but we are also doing so to make sure there is commonality across all our projects so that no matter who is assigned to a project

The difference is there is no commonality in photography, other than the fact that cameras are used. If there was, the offerings would be very very boring. It's like saying "Look at me. I'm the best artist. I have a plaque to prove it!" When we all know there is no "best" in art.

That's my take anyway. It's not a case of using rare raw materials and/or needing a physical structure to hold up because lives are at stake. It's photographs, interpretation and control of light, and vision.

[cdifoto]

we don't eat there because he is a master chef, but we can tell the difference that he is a master chef.

This pretty much sums up my point. It's not the title, it's the quality. You would still eat there if he wasn't "certified" as a master chef yet produced the same quality food, correct?

[sfaust]

This pretty much sums up my point. It's not the title, it's the quality. You would still eat there if he wasn't "certified" as a master chef yet produced the same quality food, correct?

Exactly. One is a market distinction, the other is a quality distinction. There is no law that say one had to equal the other. Regardless if the restaurant markets itself as a world class, world famous, 5 stars, or whatever, unless there is a guarantee that only real world famous restaurants can market themselves as such, then its just a gimick regardless of the quality of food coming out of the restaurant.

There is nothing that could stop anyone of us from calling ourselves "Master Photographers". Or other organizations implementing a master photographer program with significantly lower standards.

So yea, its not a standard, a industry certification, and doesn't carry much weight in the marketplace. It may become that over time, much like the MSCE has, but until that time it's just a title anyone can use if they so choose. Who would stop them.

Stephen
Master Photographer :)

[Croasdail]

Yeah... I see your points. Some like the recognition of winning a photo contest, others think they are silly. An Emmy or Grammy is just the same. Same notes played in a different order... nothing life saving... nothing that hasn't been done before. Some see value in these awards, some don't. Some see lettering in sports while in school as validation of hard work, some see it as a click that excludes those that are less athleticilly inclined. This chap was pround he had earned a level of recognition from an organization he belonged to. Others are offended or mock for what ever reason - somehow him being proud of this has hit a nerve with them. Go figure.

In the end, it really doesn't matter to anyone else other then the person who achieved it. I have awards on my office shelves that no one else see's, nor do they care about. But when I see them they still make we feel good about the work I put in to get them.

[cdifoto]

I don't mean to bash anyone who went through the hoops do actually get the gold medal of MastPhot, but I just don't see why you would add it to your name as if it's a doctorate from an accredited institution.

If/when PPA becomes accredited by whoever it is that accredits, I can see adding it. At least then it means it was standardized.

[Croasdail]

Yeah... I will agree with ya on that. Just as a respectable resturant would not put "master chef ..... " on it's sign outside, they may have a bio on of the chef with his honors listen inside the menu somewhere. It is a bit over the top. He could have a certificate on his wall, he could have it in his bio on his own promotional materials, but on the shingle out side, it is a bit over the top - I will give you that. Ok.... a little chuckling is appropriate. Like you said though, I just don't wan't to make light of others accomplishments, no matter how silly they may seem to us.

[ssim]

Others are offended or mock for what ever reason - somehow him being proud of this has hit a nerve with them. Go figure.


I'm beginning to get the feeling there is a level of jealousy in some of these posts.

I don't mean to bash anyone who went through the hoops do actually get the gold medal of MastPhot, but I just don't see why you would add it to your name as if it's a doctorate from an accredited institution.

If/when PPA becomes accredited by whoever it is that accredits, I can see adding it. At least then it means it was standardized.
I understand what you are saying but given the level of expertise required just to get on the short list is an accomplishment. There are many different associations that cover the different segments of the photo industry. Are we going to take away the awards that the news photographer might get through their group.

I think it is recognized in the industry that the PPA or in my case PPOC is the authority that will award those recognitions within the ranks of studios. Who do you want to have these associations accredited by, the government?

[cdifoto]

Yeah... I will agree with ya on that. Just as a respectable resturant would not put "master chef ..... " on it's sign outside, they may have a bio on of the chef with his honors listen inside the menu somewhere. It is a bit over the top. He could have a certificate on his wall, he could have it in his bio on his own promotional materials, but on the shingle out side, it is a bit over the top - I will give you that. Ok.... a little chuckling is appropriate.

Hah yeah it's kinda sad in some ways. Say you're a M-Phot and you're in a meeting with a potential client, and you're doing your schpiel. You somewhere along the line work it in to tell them you're a Master Photographer. Then they say, "That other guy we were looking at was really good too." That should tell you how much the credential really means to a client.

Like you said though, I just don't wan't to make light of others accomplishments, no matter how silly they may seem to us.

Definitely not. I commend anyone for hard work and accomplishment. After all, I have to. I'm too lazy to do it myself. :lol:

[cdifoto]

I think it is recognized in the industry that the PPA or in my case PPOC is the authority that will award those recognitions within the ranks of studios. Who do you want to have these associations accredited by, the government?

It may be recognized by the industry but so what? That means nothing to those NOT in the industry. So you're a photographer's photographer.

The difference is that a Doctorate is a given. Everyone knows what an MD is. They know (at least in a general sense) the amount of work and schooling that went into it. And it's global. Inside and out of the medical profession. People KNOW what a Doctor is.

It's not the same with M-Phots. To most people it's a blank stare, not recognition.

[Croasdail]

It's not the same with M-Phots. To most people it's a blank stare, not recognition.

... and then you educate them. It's all part of sales. I work with the CEO/CIO/CFOs of the worlds top 100 companies. What makes my organization different from my competitor is a whole lot of technical stuff they just normal don't know or understand, and it is my job to make sure they understand the business impact of all this technical crap. Some of that is I need to convince them of the value of the skills of the people I would bring to bear on their project. Some of that is through industry certification. They don't need to understand how it works, just that it is important and it will make their lives simpler and their cost go down. It's about sales CDI, and you find what ever you can to make yourself standout from the pack. Real or Percieved. Either way, you got to be willing to educate as you sale.

[krazziecliff]

I dont think anyone meant to mock the guy who put the title after his name. The argument here is, how do u qualify to do so? Talking about the Photographic Society, someone who attends every meet, attends workshops, shows work and "hangs" with the guys, is part of the society...then you get old and you are a master. This by no means proves that you have actually reached a level in your photography to be called a master. true masters never wanted to be known as such. The whole Jeremy Black, Master Photographer thing is just a marketing gimmick....no matter how hard he worked to get the title, it doesnt make him a master.
Some people put years of endledd toil and hardwork but never master their craft and some people are born with talent...so atleast as far as the arts are concerned, since there is no standardization its just horse**** to call yourself a master.

[Croasdail]

since there is no standardization its just horse**** to call yourself a master

Ok, sorry to drag this old mule through the mud again, but the whole notion that an industry group of 17,000 professionals can not come up with some level of recogniction to which one can try to achieve because someone who is outside the industry doesn't understand it, and there for is not a legitimate is just blowing me away. If we were then to apply this same criteria to other trades whose organization you don't understand, then likewise the title of Master Carpenter, Mason, Chef or any other trade would be equally invalid because some outside group has no comprehension of what it takes to gain that level of advancement.

If you don't understand what the PPA does, read a little first. It is not a bunch of chums getting together to pound a few down and talk about what the latest and greatest lens is... or if Nikon is better then Canon.

And if you are needing some "legitimate" organization to authorize\standardize the usage of the term, then who is entitled to use the term Pro Photographer, or Wedding Photographer, or any other self pronouced title you decide to give yourself. How many weddings do you have to shoot first to be a wedding photographer? How good does your work have to be. Is there a government agency that licenses you for said work? Is there a level of licensing or bonding needed? Hell no. You can call your self what ever you want.

The fact is anyone can use the term "master" any time. They could be the master of crap... who cares. In the end, someone who uses the term Master and has that validated by the PPA, it does mean something. If you, or the customer doesn't know what that means, educate yourself. Just because one is in a state of ignorance on a subject does not invalidate anything. The level of value a title has is relative to the customer. I have a BA in Journalism\Public Relation, and a JD/MBA. Not one of these have any value in my current job. Lots of official sounding stuff, lots of fancy paper... but mostly meaningless in my current role. It's all relative to the customer. Never hurts though.

Sure he is using it for Marketing. He would be stupid not to. Is it a gimmick, valueless, doesn't mean anything... could be. I am not really sure how high the bar is at PPA anymore. I do know they used to judge images pretty tough. But business is full of gimmick to set one product/offering apart from the next. Photography is highly competitive. Use what you can.. gimmick or not.

[*Mike*]

Just because one is in a state of ignorance on a subject does not invalidate anything.

I love this line! In a market satuarated by hacks, something that begins to establish competency and professionalism is a good thing.

Oh, and the PPA is still brutal on its grading of competitions...

I've been a member for a quite a while - just b/c it is such a worthwhile organization. I'm not a master of anything, either. But, those that have the title, from everything that I've seen, clearly deserve it.

[sfaust]

I think the credential has a lot merit among PPA photographers, and other photographers that understand the PPA and the credential. But I think it is of little value to clients who are clueless as to its limited scope in the industry, or even what the heck it means, if anything.

Without some global acceptance and understanding among the customer base, its about as meaningful as marketing blurbs such as "world famous restaurant", "top 10 best hotels", and so on. Its just another slogan.

But widely known credentials carry a huge amount of weight, such as "Pulitzer Prize winning photographer", "Oscar winning actor", MD, PhD, or similar. Everyone knows what they mean, how they were accomplished, and can add weight to to.

But how many customers know what a PPA master photographer is, what they went through to accomplish it, and what it really means. Most photographers couldn't tell you, I can't see customers being more familiar with it.

I don't think it has no value, just that the value is limited to others in the same organizations. For those in the PPA, it has great significance among its peers. But as an industry

[coreypolis]

I don't mean to bash anyone who went through the hoops do actually get the gold medal of MastPhot, but I just don't see why you would add it to your name as if it's a doctorate from an accredited institution.

If/when PPA becomes accredited by whoever it is that accredits, I can see adding it. At least then it means it was standardized.
wow I actually agree with you here. I still remember our resident PPA member Craig flory who threw around the letters as if it was a Ph.d. He didn't make many firends that way or with his critiques that matched a very very tradional PPA standard view.

[Croasdail]

I agree, having "master" attached to the sign is a bit silly, but that part is marketing and what ever works. But I am curious about what or who you would see doing the accreditation of a "trade" title. The term "master" in context of many trades, none that I am aware of have any accreditation with for example the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. I have two academic degrees, BS in Journalism, and a JD/MBA. But neither are trade certifications. The only "trade" certification I have had is from the state bar association. I also have licensure from my state to operate a photographic business, but that isn't a "trade" designation of skill either. Anyone can get a license. Anyway, just curious about what or who you would see being the authorizing body here?

The funny thing is for all the official education I have, I am not using one ounce of it right now....professionally

[LBaldwin]

I think that with few exception with those in the know, many of the posters here have not got a clue what it takes to be a master photographer. And most likely they never will. MP is a very tough credential to accomplish. It takes years of study and very rigid work system that is geared towards portraits and weddings or special events.

It does not relate to ASMP or EP or or other pro markets because those are not the same markets. I have worked for a past PPA President and even though I learned alot from him the PPA's rigidity left a bad taste in my mouth and to me severly limited creativity.

The customers that typically hire master photographers are not the usual "joe blows" as stated earlier. They are the weddings that typically run in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Rigidity is not my cup of tea, but I still respect the time and work it takes to get this legitimate credential. Magazine covers, or professional awards for your WORK are all that there is, so how is one different from the other? If you lack respect for others work, what does that say about yours. If you don;t respect your peers than that to me means that you don't respect your self either.

If you feel that your own work is now so great that you can demean others than it is time for you to hang up your cameras, perfection for you has been reached.

We are all here to learn, are we not?

Les