Kindness = returning retainer??

[jessiper]

It's frustrating when couples cancel or postpone their wedding. Today I've had my third couple cancel on me. The first couple split up, but the 'bride' wants a portrait session w/her son, and the second couple got pregnant but want me to shoot their wedding next year and referred their friends to me, so at least nobody's canceled because they've found somebody else, but that's not the point of my post, sorry.

The couple today said that they're postponing their wedding (didn't give another date), which was going to be on a Friday in June, and asked if I'd be kind enough to return the deposit (which it was a retainer, actually) since there's so much time left before the wedding. The first thing I'll say to them is that they can put their retainer towards a different date, if I'm available, since they're just postponing it, but I feel torn as to whether or not I should return it. The biggest problem I have is that they imply that I am not kind if I do not return the retainer, but that's why I write in my contracts that the retainer if non-refundable, unless I have to cancel for some reason. Should I be fair to the other two clients that canceled and not return the retainer? Or, should I be "kind" and return it? The big question is, will they respect me more if I'm fair to the others, or if I'm "kind" and return it?

Oh yeah, BTW, I'm bummed because they were a very cute couple, and I was really excited about the location. :( Maybe I should tell them that to be fair to other clients I cannot return it, but they can put it towards a different date, and offer them the same pricing even though I'll be raising my prices soon?

Sorry for such a long post! Thanks in advance for the advice!

[_Jo_]

Personally - I would put myself in their position (empathise with their reason) and then also explain to them the reason you ask for a 'retainer' is to hold that date for them and turn away any other bookings that may come along for that specific date. If it is close to the wedding then I feel it is wrong for them to request their retainer back (or you could meet halfway and do a partial refund?) - but if there is a good amount of time (as you say) I would be more concerned about keeping potential clients happy - and remember - bad feedback is more damning then the risk of having a saturday off!!!

[sblais]

As much as I try to be accommodating to my clients, this is one point where I would draw the line: if they can rebook you, fine, no extra cost for them. Otherwise, I would keep the retainer. I would explain it kindly to them though.

Given the fact that it can certainly mean lost business on your part because of the short notice (I actually have a clause in my contract that the full contract is due if there is a cancellation 90 days prior to the event to cover me for loss of business - never enforced it yet though).

I should add that if you can turn it into something positive (like towards an engagement photo session or otherwise), then I would prefer that option. It's not harsh for any party, you get (a bit of) extra business and they have their money's worth. Everyone wins. Your reputation remains intact.

[jessiper]

Thanks, Jo and Sebastien, I do completely empathize with them, that's why I'm struggling with it. I'm too "nice" in my business, but I didn't return the retainers to the other two clients that canceled, so I feel I should be fair. I'm open to other ideas, though. Maybe a partial refund?

[_Jo_]

Maybe explain that it is not your normal practice to return a retainer but due to their 'exceptional circumstances' and the length of time before the event you would be willing to consider a partial refund or, as suggested above, credit them for an engagement/future wedding/bridal booking. Good luck!!

[sblais]

Maybe explain that it is not your normal practice to return a retainer but due to their 'exceptional circumstances' and the length of time before the event you would be willing to consider a partial refund or, as suggested above, credit them for an engagement/future wedding/bridal booking. Good luck!!

I would emphasize on the credit. It's a good compromise for both parties and there is the fact that people usually don't use it ;)

-= Useless trivia of the day =-

BTW, do you know what percentage of all gift cards (like for stores) are never used?

Almost 20% in 2005! That's a lot of wasted mulla!

[jessiper]

June really isn't that far away, as far as weddings are concerned, all my June dates are booked, but maybe I'll offer an engagement session or partial refund. Thanks, Jo.

[karensimmons]

Kindness doesn't pay my mortgage, my car payment, my utility bills, or put food on my table.

I am very careful to go over the contracts when my clients sign - and to point out that the booking fee is NON REFUNDABLE. It says it in several areas all over my paperwork. And it's just that - non-refundable. Period.

I'm in business to earn a living, not to be "kind".

karen

[jessiper]

Kindness doesn't pay my mortgage, my car payment, my utility bills, or put food on my table.

I am very careful to go over the contracts when my clients sign - and to point out that the booking fee is NON REFUNDABLE. It says it in several areas all over my paperwork. And it's just that - non-refundable. Period.

I'm in business to earn a living, not to be "kind".

karen

Very true! I do sit there while they read the "terms & agreements," and the first line says the retainer is non-refundable. Thanks.

[philpereira]

I agree with Karen, what's the point of a contract if you aren't going to execute it fully?
They paid you to hold the date, they broke the contract (or postoned it, whatever), so they're financially liable. It sucks for them, but a written contract is a written contract.
But I'd be inclined to offer a portait session gratis; in that sense, no real money is being exchanged, and you could even get print sales out of it.

[C.Steele]

First, I would not give them a refund.

Second, something I learned in sales, when you are delivering news that may be viewed as negative, is to use words that take the focus off you. This way the people receiving the news don't take it as YOU personally are doing something to THEM. It's all a subconscious thing.

An example would be: Instead of saying "I have thought about it and I have decided not to refund your deposit..."

Try something like "Unfortunately I am (or even better, WE are) not able to refund your deposit, I (we) can however offer you credit toward..."

It's subtle, but it works.

Good luck
Chris

[mizuno]

Personally?

It's a retainer and they signed a contract. End of story.

However... I would most likely offer to return the retainer if/when I am able to book another wedding for that particular date. June is not far off in terms of wedding bookings - most of my bookings are 6-12 months out, not 3-4.

[CyberPet]

I think Dan's suggestion is fair.... if you can book that date, then they can have their retainer back. If not, it's not refundable.

Maybe they'll find a couple for you! :D

[Tish]

I'm with CyberPet--only refund if you rebook the date. Most June brides have already secured their photogs.

[mmahoney]

I think Dan's suggestion is fair.... if you can book that date, then they can have their retainer back. If not, it's not refundable.

Maybe they'll find a couple for you! :D

CP has offered a good all around solution .. ensure that the couple are aware that when they cancel it costs you revenue as you could have booked that date with another couple. So you are losing here as well .. and probably an amount greater than the retainer .. so you loss is greater than theirs, be sure that's understood by the couple.

So keep the retainer but offer some "outs" as suggested above.
Mike

[tim]

Keep it, they agreed to your terms. What Karen said.

[jessiper]

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I really appreciate it. :) You've made me feel like I'm not a horrible person for keeping it.

[davidgr]

Are you running a business or a charity?

If a charity, then you can do what you please, but if you're running a business, then you have to treat it like one. Do you think the venue, the DJ, the videographer, or anyone else is giving back their retainer? Call them to find out, but I doubt it.

I would agree with the others though that said if you can rebook the date, then don't charge another retainer fee. If you only do a few weddings a year, this is gravy money, so you're not really hurting if you lose a little extra cash. But if you're busy and in demand enough, then that's another story.

[islandphoto]

I guess it really comes down to how you feel about the couple's intentions. If you can completely understand the situation and you feel comfortable giving the deposit back then you should. Here's something else to think about... Have you had ANY other inquires for that same date that you had to refuse? If so then I wouldn't return the deposit. If not than you could look at it as no money gained or lost.

I think it's important to satisfy the customer. Most couples don''t cancel and if they do they probably wouldn't ask for the deposit back. If it's only this one couple I would return it - make them happy they will appreciate it and spread a good word about you.

Just my opinion.

Let us know what you decide.

[linarms]

One extra thought here.

I was once in the position of needing to cancel a wedding (I was saved from marrying the wrong person, 7 weeks before the big day), and we expected it to be an expensive cancellation. Catering, venues, you name it ... lots of deposits down the drain. In the end I don't think it was as bad as we'd expected (I wasn't very involved at that point :-p), but we were certainly aware that it would be costly to change plans.

So however 'unique' this couple's situation may be, I'm sure they're aware that changing plans will mean, at the very least, lost deposits/retainers. I wouldn't be offering a refund ...

[subtle_spectre]

Booking fees are non-refundable and forfeited as liquidated damages in the event of client-caused cancellation...per my services agreement. I had a bride tell me her wedding was cancelled for June 2. I was bummed for her and for me as I was really looking forward to photographing her. I have also turned away countless inquiries about that date....so I have no qualms about keeping the booking fee.

[xandria]

I think it's important to satisfy the customer. Most couples don''t cancel and if they do they probably wouldn't ask for the deposit back. If it's only this one couple I would return it - make them happy they will appreciate it and spread a good word about you.

Exactly. Most couples wouldn't even ask - - just because they did you shouldn't feel an obligation to refund the fee. Although you may think that their spreading the word that you returned the retainer fee is a "good" thing, this could actually do more harm to your business and reputation. You don't want them telling other potential or past clients that you refunded their booking fee. NOT good for business. They were completely aware that the fee was non-refundable. DO NOT REFUND it! Let them know that it can be transferred to another date (after all they're postponing, right?) or offer it to be used as a credit toward other services if you wish.

It has nothing to do with being kind - - don't think of it in those terms. This is business and they paid a fee which isn't refundable. Period.

[xandria]

oh - - no offense to islandphoto - - hope it doesn't come across that way. Just pointing out that although we all have human sympathies, sometimes we have to look at our policies and business practices and how what we do now can affect our business in the long term.

[jessiper]

I told him that I was sorry to hear that they're postponing their wedding because I was looking forward to shooting it, and I hope they're doing well. I said I would be more than happy to put the retainer towards another date, if I'm available, as well as charge them the current price, even if I raise my prices, but to be fair to other clients, I unfortunately could not refund the retainer unless the date gets booked. Then I asked if they had another wedding date planned, but they said they don't, and it's unlikely they'll get married in 2007. He seemed fine with that. I wonder if she's pregnant.

[xandria]

I told him that I was sorry to hear that they're postponing their wedding because I was looking forward to shooting it, and I hope they're doing well. I said I would be more than happy to put the retainer towards another date, if I'm available, as well as charge them the current price, even if I raise my prices, but to be fair to other clients, I unfortunately could not refund the retainer unless the date gets booked. Then I asked if they had another wedding date planned, but they said they don't, and it's unlikely they'll get married in 2007. He seemed fine with that. I wonder if she's pregnant.

I hope you put a time limit on that :)

[islandphoto]

no offence taken - you have a really good point but like someone else pointed out earlier - negative words about a photographer can do a lot more than positive ones :(

[joegolf68]

As others have said, Dan made a good suggestion, return it if booked.

I'd try to tell them nicely, that you could have booked other weddings in June, but did NOT because they retained you. Explain that most weddings already booked their photog, so it is unlikely you will get work, therefore they have cost you money. THEN let them know that you will be kind and give them a credit, or even kinder and return most, if not all of the money if you are booked for that date. Makes sense to them and you.

Ok, now the big question for anyone out there, how much does one charge for doing, let's say an eight hour wedding? Just the basics, not for the prints and all. Or if eight hours is too long or short, how much is charged nowadays for an average wedding? I am only curious, I am not going into the business or anything, just 100% curiosity. Thanks to anyone who is kind enough to give me a clue. Since you may not want to give your rates, maybe estimate the high and low for a "good" photographer. Not the greatest of all time, or some guy with a P & S, just a good basic wedding photographer. Thanks.

[linarms]

joegolf68, your question is OT and is addressed elsewhere.

Short answer: there is no short answer. It depends on geography, business model, target audience, you name it.