Help me I'm stupid....

[Eagle]

Why can't people decide what lens to choose?
If you want to shot wider, buy wider.
If you need more reach, buy more tele.
If you need faster, buy faster.
If you need close-up, buy macro.
If you want to spend more money, buy the more expensive lens.
If you don't have enough money, don't buy the "L".
If you want Canon, Sigma, Tamron, buy it.
Buy what you need, not what everyone else thinks you need.

Do you ask people what car, boat, motorcycle, house to buy? I bet you buy the one you want not what others think you want.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with asking for opinions about a lens, but no one else knows what you want or can afford. Sorry just been reading to many of these type of posts today.

Off to read more...........;)

[evandavies]

Hehehe, nice try but I don't think its gona work ;)

Some people just want to be told what to get without too much looking... :confused: Do some research people.

On the other hand, finding the right combination of lenses is a pain in the *&*%*$*£^£! ;)
Its always going to take a while for your kit to develop with your shooting style and subjects until you are happy with it. Then new lenses will be released and you'll want those :D

[Phil Light]

I really debated about whether to get the 24-105 or the 24-70 (the classic debate). That's a very hard choice to make because they both have very nice features that the other doesn't. I really wanted to hear people's opinion on the issue. I finally settled on the 24-105 because I had never had IS before. Then I realized how valuable 2.8 is so I got the 24-70 too. I love them both. But I really did appreciate all of the opinions I got when trying to make up my mind.

[Mark_Cohran]

It's one thing to ask about choosing between two specific lenses, or asking about specific experiences with one lens, but all too often someone will post a list with a wide variety of lenses and ask which one will be best for landscapes AND macro AND sports AND portraits AND general shooting. Huh? It sure seems fewer and fewer people are willing to do any research prior to asking specific, pertinent questions about a particular lens or two.

Mark

[Phil Light]

It's one thing to ask about choosing between two specific lenses, or asking about specific experiences with one lens, but all too often someone will post a list with a wide variety of lenses and ask which one will be best for landscapes AND macro AND sports AND portraits AND general shooting. Huh? It sure seems fewer and fewer people are willing to do any research prior to asking specific, pertinent questions about a particular lens or two.

Mark

My guess is that type of question comes from somebody who really doesn't understand what makes lenses different, i.e., "why is f/2.8 better than f/4?" and why does somebody refer to a 1.4 lens as being "fast"? And "if ISO 1600 allows you to shoot in much lower light, then why not use it all the time?" I've been around cameras so long this stuff seems simple, but when trying to explain it to someone new to the game, I see them really struggling to understand how all this stuff works. Understanding the cockpit controls in a 747 seems easy to a 747 pilot.

[Double Negative]

A lens is a serious investment for a lot of people. There's nothing wrong with doing your homework and making sure that you're making the right decision. I think the biggest problem is that most people don't know how to use the search function on forums. ;)

A lens that ends up unused or doesn't fulfill your needs is a useless lens and a waste of money.

[DenZ]

I think its best to do my own lens research, although you sometimes can't hit every point in a review. And sometimes there are quarks with lenses that are advertised no where across the wide expanse of the internet.

Regardless, I usually run through:
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/index.html
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-Zoom-Lens-Reviews.aspx
http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/

And to get an idea of what to expect, I find Photozone's Lens Performance Survey (http://www.photozone.de/active/survey/querylenstxt.jsp?filter=%22brand='Canon%20EF'%20OR %20brand='Sigma%20AF'%20OR%20brand='Tamron%20AF'%2 0or%20brand='Tokina%20AF'%20or%20brand='Vivitar%20 AF'%22) very helpful.

And of course, POTN forum is a great resource as well, and it's always comforting to have someone back your decision (I only wish I had discovered this forum when I was picking between the 24-70 and 24-105).

[Glenn NK]

Eagle:

I'm going to side with you on this one.:)

If someone asks what shirt he should wear with his camera, I'll probably lose it.:evil:

[Eagle]

I have no problems with people asking for info on different lenses. I've asked questions myself.

What gets me is when they ask "what lens should I buy, the 5mm WA or the 2000mm zoom, I want to do portraits in the school bathroom with it? And maybe a wedding or two. So please, please pick one for me." :lol:

[nicksan]

I don't know how to put it midly, but I think people need to get off their high horses.

Really...come one fellas. We were all there at some point.

Actually when I buy something like a car, I would probably ask more questions and do more research than buying a lens b/c it costs so much more.

Don't know about you, but I don't live in the world alone. I've got people around me and I am going to pick their brains for advice and perspective.

Nothing wrong with that.

I am perfectly happy to help out a newbie...it's called "Giving back to the community"...

[bacchanal]

Why can't people decide what lens to choose?
If you want to shot wider, buy wider.
If you need more reach, buy more tele.
If you need faster, buy faster.
If you need close-up, buy macro.
If you want to spend more money, buy the more expensive lens.
If you don't have enough money, don't buy the "L".
If you want Canon, Sigma, Tamron, buy it.
Buy what you need, not what everyone else thinks you need.


Okay, so you have a nice list of variables...which relate to various shooting situations. The questions come when you're comparing different lenses with different attributes and applying the strengths and weaknesses of given lenses to specific shooting situations. So....there are stupid questions and then there are stupid questions...

[Steve O Chap]

What about folks like me who are new to SLR's and really don't know much about lenses?

There are many 'things' I want to (and already do) photograph including motorcycle racing, highschool basketball, human/animal portraits and landscapes.

I have no idea if there is a 'do it all' lens out there, so naturally I'd list the lenses that I'm intersted in.... which has a broad range of zooms. And probably ask which one would be the most versatile since I'm a newly wed and recent college grad who just bought a house and doesn't have tons of expendable cash to buy multiple lenses. :oops:

So by asking people on the board instead of digging through old posts (some of have families to tend to :D) we aren't doing research? If that's your stance I beg to differ... true life testimonials are perhaps the MOST important research aspect.

But I guess we can agree to disagree... :D

[JohnnyG]

I'm wondering whether to respond to this note! What do you think?

[Steve O Chap]

I'm wondering whether to respond to this note! What do you think?

Please do... you should know us Texans are always up for a fight! :lol:

[mdm]

Actually I'm going to buy a truck tomorrow and I'm still not sure what to get. I'm looking at trucks but not sure which make. I can't rule a small SUV. Help... My old truck is 11 years old and it's going to be hard to part with it. I do like to listen what people suggest in a lens. Many have used these lens and can offer opinions or facts that can sway ones choice.

[august23]

Why can't people decide what lens to choose?
If you want to shot wider, buy wider.
If you need more reach, buy more tele.
If you need faster, buy faster.
If you need close-up, buy macro.
If you want to spend more money, buy the more expensive lens.
If you don't have enough money, don't buy the "L".
If you want Canon, Sigma, Tamron, buy it.
Buy what you need, not what everyone else thinks you need.

Do you ask people what car, boat, motorcycle, house to buy? I bet you buy the one you want not what others think you want.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with asking for opinions about a lens, but no one else knows what you want or can afford. Sorry just been reading to many of these type of posts today.

Off to read more...........;)

Thats a great idea! Now, when you need all of those things, and you don't want to spend a dump-truck worth of money on it, that's when asking on this forum comes into play.;)

[Double Negative]

Actually I'm going to buy a truck tomorrow and I'm still not sure what to get. I'm looking at trucks but not sure which make. I can't rule a small SUV. Help... My old truck is 11 years old and it's going to be hard to part with it. I do like to listen what people suggest in a lens. Many have used these lens and can offer opinions or facts that can sway ones choice.

Check out the Xterra - http://xterrafirma.com :)

[Eagle]

Actually I'm going to buy a truck tomorrow and I'm still not sure what to get. I'm looking at trucks but not sure which make. I can't rule a small SUV. Help... My old truck is 11 years old and it's going to be hard to part with it. I do like to listen what people suggest in a lens. Many have used these lens and can offer opinions or facts that can sway ones choice.

I think you would be better to either wait until the 2009 models come out or buy a "L"amborghini instead.

[mdm]

It's dang hard to pick something out. The truck or whatever. My head is spinning.

[mdm]

I'm off to check out the Xterra.Thanks.

[NorCalAl]

What? Have you never been to a Harley or Audi board? How about a gun board? SAME THING THERE! What bike do I buy? Which engine do I choose? What caliber should I get? No, this is a common thing to all forums. I've belonged to all those and others. What fish do I need? What orchid should I grow?
I'm not sure if people are less decisive or looking for people to back up the decisions they've already made.
Oh, yeah, there's Xterra boards, too. I know, I have one of those as well.

[byso]

I bet this sites owners will have to close the forum down now that you want to stop the reason why many post here.

[pepperoni]

The Search function here works. When I was debating getting a 300mm prime, I typed "300" into the Search box and read for days. It was great for me (I have one on order).

However...

Problem #1
There SOOO MUCH information here, if you type in 24-70 (for example), you get so much information it can be overwhelming.

Problem #2
If the same questions keep popping up every few days, people get tired of seeing it and stop responding, or if they do respond, they say, "Use the Search".

I'm not sure where I'm going with all this, but everyone knows white t-shirts with a red stripe are more badasser. :D

[byso]

Are some trying to say that you shouldn't post a question on the site as the question has probably been asked before.

Looks like forum traffic could become very low if that's the case ;)

[nicksan]

I guess you can add this thread to the pile of you know what...;) ;) ;)

Seriously though, if you don't like those threads skip over them...kinda like skipping over a channel...

[kitacanon]

Gotta tell ya...some people love to hunt and discover more than what they were searching for...

...when I first got my Canon I read every ARCHIVED page of information on my camera...and we're talking the 7 year old D30 and LOTSA forums...and learned more and got more answers to questions I didn't know I had...

...others just want the facts laid out in front of them and answers to the questions of the moment...and when they have another question in another moment, and there will be plenty of both, they'll be back...

I am a teacher, and I gotta tell ya it's the same in my classes...some students expect me to be nothing more than an ISP...an information service provider...whereas I see my role as the question authority...the expert inquisitor that expects exploration and results in discovery...
some get it...some don't...

Sometimes I'll answer some of those interminably asked questions...and sometimes I don't...

[august23]

Guys help I'm stuck between the 24L and the 600L.

Help me pick. My needs and budget are unneeded information.


These kinds of threads I can't stand.

[kitacanon]

...oh...I prefer dark shirts to camouflage my cameras, unless I want the camera to stand out...then white, of course...but I'm your basic B&W guy...

[nicksan]

Here's a bit of irony....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=283519

;) ;) ;)

[Mark_Cohran]

It's one thing to help someone who is asking specific questions to learn the particulars of a lens or the advantages of one type of lens over the other. It's entirely another to actually pick a lens for someone or narrow the field from 10 lenses to one for them.

I'm one of the first to jump in an help a newbie, though it's been many years since I was a beginner, and I learned photography through experience and in college and not via an online forum. I like helping people, and I like teaching about photography, but there are just some questions that are beyond the pale and I think those are the ones to which the OP is referring. My preference is to help those who are helping themselves....those are the guys (or gals) that start by saying "I've searched the forums, reads the reviews and narrowed my choices to..." :)

Mark

[august23]

Here's a bit of irony....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=283519

;) ;) ;)

I hate you.:mad:

[Mark_Cohran]

And of course, POTN forum is a great resource as well, and it's always comforting to have someone back your decision (I only wish I had discovered this forum when I was picking between the 24-70 and 24-105).

But, there's no bad choice there, is there? :)

Mark

[nicksan]

I agree. But when one is so "green", where does one turn to?
I'm not nearly as experienced as a lot of the nice people in here. I remeber when I started out. I had absolutely no clue. I'm sure I asked stupid questions. I know better than to ask before at least looking/searching. I completely agree with you there.

I guess it's a double edged sword. So you use the search. There so many threads that you just go "Forget about this. I'm just going to open a new one and ask"...

Anyways, generally, I think the folks here have been tremendously helpful. I know I can make that statement. I have learned so much from the members here.

So it makes sense to return the favor to someone new!

It's one thing to help someone who is asking specific questions to learn the particulars of a lens or the advantages of one type of lens over the other. It's entirely another to actually pick a lens for someone or narrow the field from 10 lenses to one for them.

I'm one of the first to jump in an help and newbie, though it's been many years since I was a beginner, and I learned photography through experience and in college and not via an online forum. I like helping people, and I like teaching about photography, but there are just some questions that are beyond the pale and I think those are the ones to which the OP is referring. My preference is to help those who are helping themselves....those are the guys (or gals) that start by saying "I've searched the forums, reads the reviews and narrowed my choices to..." :)

Mark

[nicksan]

Come on...you asked for it August!:) :) :)

Actually, I find your threads to be rather educational!!!
...and I know you've got the passion...and the fever for gear...hopefully not the dreaded "L" fever!!!:)


I hate you.:mad:

[august23]

Yea well the L fever isn't really fever for L. It's fever for IQ. I'm an IQ whore, and won't settle for anything but the best. It just happens to mostly be L.

[Mark_Cohran]

Yea well the L fever isn't really fever for L. It's fever for IQ. I'm an IQ whore, and won't settle for anything but the best. It just happens to mostly be L.

IQ is great, but the best IQ in the world won't make a dull and uninspired anything more than a dull and uninspired shot with great IQ. Great photographs are not made by the equipment but by the vision of the photographer...something that I'm constantly reminding myself. :)

Mark

[august23]

Certainly a great way to save money with that logic. ;)

[DenZ]

But, there's no bad choice there, is there? :)

Mark

Nope, I love my 24-105! And 105mm on a 1.6x is great.
A recent shot from the Chinese Spring Festival (also on my flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/denz/402872679/)page):
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/402872679_5a1502bece.jpg?v=0
I knew the IS would help me out! (After 200 shots covering a 3 hour performance my arms sort of flail out). ISO 800 ~ 1600 helped me stop motion.

And IS was one of the biggest questions I had in my mind when it came to justifying the f/4 aperture.

[nicksan]

Awesome!


Nope, I love my 24-105! And 105mm on a 1.6x is great.
A recent shot from the Chinese Spring Festival (also on my flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/denz/402872679/)page):

I knew the IS would help me out! (After 200 shots covering a 3 hour performance my arms sort of flail out). ISO 800 ~ 1600 helped me stop motion.

And IS was one of the biggest questions I had in my mind when it came to justifying the f/4 aperture.

[evandavies]

As stated by someone several pages back ...;)... the problem is people who can't use Google and type "lens bla bla review" and do some reading to at least narrow down their choices.

Of course newbies (we've all been there), need to learn about lens attributes first and thats just as easy to research. I don't have a problem answering these kinds of questions. (if I can) :D

The posts that ask "which lens is better, A or B" are valid and those can be more easily answered by people who have both. (though most have one or the other and claim that one to be best of course );)

Mark Cohran said it best tough.

[bowlesbe]

I don't know how to put it midly, but I think people need to get off their high horses.

Really...come one fellas. We were all there at some point.

Actually when I buy something like a car, I would probably ask more questions and do more research than buying a lens b/c it costs so much more.

Don't know about you, but I don't live in the world alone. I've got people around me and I am going to pick their brains for advice and perspective.

Nothing wrong with that.

I am perfectly happy to help out a newbie...it's called "Giving back to the community"...

I think its good to help new people too, but only when its in the context of specific questions / help because the user honestly cannot figure something out by him/herself. For someone who is lazy to do the research, the forums actually are a bad thing in some ways, because they are inevitably biased by the low number of people that actually respond. Also, by the nature of people who talk on forums in the first place!

[JohnnyG]

I think it's good to help new people for whatever reason they need help whether they have researched or not. Let's face it, some people really don't know how to research on the net and our answers really help them. Plus, it gives us, the POTN community a chance to shine compared to some others that might not want to help.

I was drawn to this forum not by the members it had but by the help the members gave with the friendly attitude.

POTN rules!

[irish1]

When people drop serious money on something, they are understandably nervous about making the right choice, and most of us slobs don't have unlimited resources to throw at our expensive hobby. Throw in the cornacopia of alphabet soup abbreviations (EX, APO, L, etc.), the plethera of numerical equations (f2.8, 17-70, 55-500 etc.), the fact that even among manufacturers there are "good" lenses and not so good lens, and the quality control issues of some companies and it really can be a daunting task. Many folks are really asking "Am I screwing up badly here?" and just would like a little hand holding and words of encouragement. Don't be so rough on them!

[Longjohns]

I think the post from Jeff on page one is absolutely right on. My guess is that type of question comes from somebody who really doesn't understand what makes lenses different, i.e., "why is f/2.8 better than f/4?" and why does somebody refer to a 1.4 lens as being "fast"? And "if ISO 1600 allows you to shoot in much lower light, then why not use it all the time?" I've been around cameras so long this stuff seems simple, but when trying to explain it to someone new to the game, I see them really struggling to understand how all this stuff works. Understanding the cockpit controls in a 747 seems easy to a 747 pilot.

[Pasukun]

Can't blame them for not having the knowledge..
Because, to some people.. a simplest thing can cause a greatest confusion.
And that is why they come here to seek the guidance.. to ask for an advice...
It may irritate you to read such a rookie posts.. but put yourself in their shoes and think about the amount of confusion and stress they could be having.. it's a BIG decision to make and they are probably losing sleep over it.
After all.. they are risking hundreds if not thousands of $.. and that is enough stress already.
Most of those people are very motivated and inspired people.. who is ready to progress to the new level of photography.. and I think it is just cruel to label them as a "stupid" just because they lack the experience and indecisive.
Sometimes.. asking a simple direct question can spare them an hours and days of endless research.

[Bill Roberts]

As stated by someone several pages back ...;)... the problem is people who can't use Google and type "lens bla bla review"

On a lighter note... just out of interest I did exactly that... Google returned 111000 hits ! maybe I should have narrowed it down to bLa bLa instead?

[Jon, The Elder]

I understand the OP's frame of mind. Makes me wonder how and why people get into DSLR's sometimes.

I also understand and generally agree with Mark's comments most of the time.

It is difficult to read into a posters question, just what the real reason is for the question. The typed (printed) word is falling (failing) to convey what they really are looking for.

If someone is asking for first hand response to a specific lens, and I have/use that lens, I will generally give my experience.

"Which is best" is like asking "how high is the sky".

[august23]

guys i need to cover ::insert rediculous focal lengths here:: but only have ::insert insanely low number here:: to spend. what are my options? I'll need it for ::insert every type of photography here::

[lankaman]

I agree. But when one is so "green", where does one turn to?
I'm not nearly as experienced as a lot of the nice people in here. I remeber when I started out. I had absolutely no clue. I'm sure I asked stupid questions. I know better than to ask before at least looking/searching. I completely agree with you there.

I guess it's a double edged sword. So you use the search. There so many threads that you just go "Forget about this. I'm just going to open a new one and ask"...

Anyways, generally, I think the folks here have been tremendously helpful. I know I can make that statement. I have learned so much from the members here.

So it makes sense to return the favor to someone new!

Great teachers help even the lazy or stupid students. Remember we were not born with cameras in our hands. Come on folks! be considerate to newbies. I am sure all you experts look at these requests or else why would you get irritated. If you are, skip over them.

[Lord_Malone]

Why can't people decide what lens to choose?
If you want to shot wider, buy wider.
If you need more reach, buy more tele.
If you need faster, buy faster.
If you need close-up, buy macro.
If you want to spend more money, buy the more expensive lens.
If you don't have enough money, don't buy the "L".
If you want Canon, Sigma, Tamron, buy it.
Buy what you need, not what everyone else thinks you need.

Do you ask people what car, boat, motorcycle, house to buy? I bet you buy the one you want not what others think you want.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with asking for opinions about a lens, but no one else knows what you want or can afford. Sorry just been reading to many of these type of posts today.

Off to read more...........;)

Yeah. This here seems like a total waste of bandwidth because no one seems to use it... http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=86975 And to think that it's stickied right there on the top!

Good observation, Eagle. Now I'm leaving this forum FOREVER! I hate you "lens" lovers.

BUUAAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

[Pasukun]

True, such a question would be plain dumb.. but at least to them it was an honest question.
To be specific with the question.. the person would have to know enough to ask specifically.. What if the person lack even the most basic information? Are they guilty for asking harmless question? I'm thinking no.. If you think it will be a waste of time to respond.. you merely have to do nothing and move on.
But you know what I think?
I think it irritates you because you wanted to help.. but the question was so broad that it would take too much time to explain..
Unless I am wrong about this.. we only need to be patient with them.. by asking key question(s) to eliminate some of the factors and finally give them the answer they need.
Even thought it was not photography related.. I've been working in IT department for over 12 years.. and believe me when I say this.. I had my share of some of the most naive(if not dumb) questions.. and they did not give me those challenging questions because they simply wanted to irritate me.. they just didn't have any clue.. or didn't know how to ask. Most of them just needed some basic explanation and if that was not possible.. I asked them enough questions to finally narrow down to give one.

[Mark_Cohran]

Great teachers help even the lazy or stupid students. Remember we were not born with cameras in our hands. Come on folks! be considerate to newbies. I am sure all you experts look at these requests or else why would you get irritated. If you are, skip over them.

I don't get irritated. I usually just dive in and help out......but it would be so much better if the questioner actually took the time to consider his/her real needs and narrow the question to something that can be objectively answered or even answerwed with an opinion that relates to a specific lens, camera or option.

Mark

[Eagle]

but it would be so much better if the questioner actually took the time to consider his/her real needs and narrow the question to something that can be objectively answered or even answerwed with an opinion that relates to a specific lens, camera or option.

Mark

Mark, you've hit it dead on the head here.

Like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with asking questions, just put some thought behind it and be specific about what your looking for. I try to answer any question I see, if I believe I know the answer. Just don't ask me to tell me which you should get a used 18-55 kit ar a new 600mm for taking pics of your kids basketball team and spiders.:p

Yeah. This here seems like a total waste of bandwidth because no one seems to use it... http://www.photography-on-the.net/fo...ad.php?t=86975 (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=86975) And to think that it's stickied right there on the top!

:D Definately not used enough.

[JohnnyG]

Yeah. This here seems like a total waste of bandwidth because no one seems to use it... http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=86975 And to think that it's stickied right there on the top!

Good observation, Eagle. Now I'm leaving this forum FOREVER! I hate you "lens" lovers.

BUUAAAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
I hope you're not serious about leaving and you're just joking?

[Lord_Malone]

I hope you're not serious about leaving and you're just joking?

Despite many attempts to part ways with the lens forum, I always find myself back here.

Damn you all!

[Mark_Cohran]

Despite many attempts to part ways with the lens forum, I always find myself back here.

Damn you all!

You're just as much a gear head as the rest of us. :)

[-MasterChief-]

you could always tell them to get the Canon EF 10-400mm f1.8L IS lens ;) :p

[Phil Light]

As usual I am totally on board with Nick's logic. Even in the forum rules it states not to answer posts with responses like "search is your friend". I will go on record as saying I will never leave a response like that. I remember what it's like to be "green" and almost too intimidated to ask a question. That's the quickest way to make people feel unwelcome and drive them out of here. I will always do my best to answer the question if I can, and if necessary, I might add that some of the information can also be found in the stickys or searching will bring lots more information, but I will always do my best to not act like their question is beneath me taking time to answer it.

And to me the whole point of a forum is to be able to engage in a live chat with good people, not a repository of information to be searched by yourself. I'm a social person at heart and I enjoy making friends I've never met, and may never meet. If the answer to a post is "search is your friend" then we don't need this forum. We have google for that.

Having been a teacher for a brief time in a past life, I always felt like the most important trait a good teacher posesses is not knowledge, but patience. It's difficult to be patient with someone who doesn't even know how to ask the right question, or doesn't seem to be getting it, but that's what separates what I considered my best teachers from the hacks I had going through school.

If I see a thread that I'm not interested in getting involved in, I will skip it. I have no need to exert my importance by demeaning the poster. If I ever get to a point where I answer a newbie's question by saying "search is your friend" or "read the stickys" then what that means to me is I've outlasted my usefulness here and I need to leave for a while.

We need as many people here like Nick as we can get.

I don't know how to put it midly, but I think people need to get off their high horses.

Really...come one fellas. We were all there at some point.

Actually when I buy something like a car, I would probably ask more questions and do more research than buying a lens b/c it costs so much more.

Don't know about you, but I don't live in the world alone. I've got people around me and I am going to pick their brains for advice and perspective.

Nothing wrong with that.

I am perfectly happy to help out a newbie...it's called "Giving back to the community"...

[TBAATAR]

In developed countries people are becoming more and more insecure about their wants, needs and look because too much exposure to choices, in your face advertisments and greed.

You could be wanting wide angle lens by saving your pennies and eating beans on toast, before you know it you are exposed to wonderful wildlife photos and your perception changes.

People's wants, needs change far too often in developed world.

I think...

[Steve O Chap]

Wow, some people on this board really want to make you feel like an idiot for asking 'noobish' questions... :confused:

Just don't ever come to my motorcycle forums and ask what class you should race in... Formula One or Heavy Weight Twins... :)

[jpt123]

As a newbie, I appreciate how helpful everyone has been.

That being said, I love to research and have read all the stickies and searched posts to get my info. There were many,many threads on the same subject and I read all I could. Different people responded on different threads, and it was great to get so many opinions. If non-research-oriented newbies didn't ask, then research-oriented newbies like me would have less to read.

It appears as though there are enough people on this forum that if someone gets tired of newbie questions, there are plenty of others who don't, or who have never had the opportunity to answer a question themselves.

Like someone said earlier, it leads you to learn so many more things. Thanks again to everyone for your help.

[Double Negative]

I run a popular forum/Website, and I've seen every type of member. I also frequent several boards such as POTN and again, have seen every type of member...

You have the people that have been on the site for a while and have acclimated to the forum's culture. They help out the other side, the newbies - which go on to join the oldtimers after a break-in period.

Sometimes the senior members burn out on answering the same question over and over. But with the constant influx of new members, they then take the reigns for a while.

New members (on every forum out there) rarely start with searches. In most cases new members don't even go through the sub-forums and previous posts to get a lay of the land. It's really powerful. You can answer your own questions fairly quickly most of the time within minutes. If something still doesn't make sense, by all means start a new thread. Cite the threads you read and what doesn't make sense and you'll be surprised, people are much more apt to respond to a post that shows at least some effort.

Nobody can fault someone for having absolutely no clue. We were all there once upon a time. I remember my own days as a n00b. I went to the library, read books and magazines. Even subscribed to "Photo" magazine back in the day - kind of a Joy of Photography in a monthly magazine form. Payback was the first day of photography class in high school when the teacher pointed to the top of an SLR and asked the class if anyone knew what it was. I responded without much thought, "pentaprism!" The class chuckled briefly - until he said, "yep." :D

Sure, you can go to <insert favorite search engine> and search for "24-70mm review" but the results are almost useless. A lot of specialty "review sites" steal (read: buy) keywords such as "review" and you have to filter through all this crap first. Specialized forums like POTN are the best bet for real, easy to digest information. Searching here for the answer is way more likely to result in a usable answer.

But I digress... I like helping the new folks and particpating in discussions - basic and advanced. It reminds me of the principles behind photography, gives me ideas or inspiration and can make you think, keeping everything fresh.

Participating in the critique of each others photos makes you think about your own.

[Bill Roberts]

Well put DN.

[Phil Light]

Well put DN.

I second that!

[JimAskew]

DN,

You have just described me from two years ago to today. Well stated response. We all have to learn our craft. I have found no better place than POTN.

So, new folks...ask away...I'll answer where I can ans will many others here :)

Just be careful on the lens questions or you will end up with an empty bank account and a bag of "L" lenses ;)

[SuzyView]

A few months ago some members were saying they stay away from the lens forum because there are too many new threads like those the OP described or threads celebrating purchases. I don't mind them so much. I know I'm still learning (as you all know), and I appreciate the help of more experienced photographers in my quest for perfection (well, just not to fall on my face occasionally). Let's be realistic, though because Newbies keep the forum interesting and moving forward. We'd get pretty bored if we couldn't give our opinions over and over again with new stuff and old stuff. That's what makes this forum really friendly. People are willing to share and if you don't want to, don't post. It works for me.

[Phil Light]

..Just be careful on the lens questions or you will end up with an empty bank account and a bag of "L" lenses ;)

Thanks pal! (he said sarcasticlly) Where were you two months ago? ;)

[JimAskew]

Thanks pal! (he said sarcasticlly) Where were you two months ago? ;)

Jeff,

I feel your pain...in July 2005 I had a G5 and was quite content; but look at my kit now after joining POTN :)

This year I am upgrading my 70-200 f/4 EF L to the IS version. Help Me! Help Me!

[JimAskew]

Thanks pal! (he said sarcasticlly) Where were you two months ago? ;)

Jeff,

I feel your pain...in July 2005 I had a G5 and was quite content; but look at my kit now after joining POTN :)

This year I am upgrading my 70-200 f/4 EF L to the IS version. Help Me! Help Me!

[Phil Light]

Jeff,

I feel your pain...in July 2005 I had a G5 and was quite content; but look at my kit now after joining POTN :)

This year I am upgrading my 70-200 f/4 EF L to the IS version. Help Me! Help Me!

:lol: I joined POTN in October 2006. Since that time I have sold, replaced, upgraded every molecule of camera gear I own. Damn this place! :p

(However, much of it really needed to be replaced and it (not sure if I mean the forum or the new toys) has greatly renewed my interest in improving my skills. I'm shooting at least 10 times the pictures I used to.)

[JimAskew]

:lol: I joined POTN in October 2006. Since that time I have sold, replaced, upgraded every molecule of camera gear I own. Damn this place! :p

(However, much of it really needed to be replaced and it (not sure if I mean the forum or the new toys) has greatly renewed my interest in improving my skills. I'm shooting at least 10 times the pictures I used to.)

Yes, and we are not atypical members but I suspect mainstream types. Most come here to learn and grow (including their gear) ;)

[PhotoFranz]

Wow, it must be wonderful for some people to never have to ask advice from others. I wish I were that smart. Seriously, I think some people ask questions here just because they want affirmation of their chioces. I know I have. This IS a forum and people LIKE to talk about cameras and equipment. Check out my signature, that is why I am here.

[gjman]

........... Do you ask people what car, boat, motorcycle, house to buy? I bet you buy the one you want not what others think you want..........

Actually that assumption is patently wrong in the new internet world. One of the best things that the internet has done is given you options to level the "asymmetry of information" that exists on any issue that you want to know about. Before I bought my first car I did read through everything I could find on edmunds (especially the confessions of a car salesman series). This certainly helped me a lot with the process.

When I choose the brand and model of the car, I followed Edmunds link to VWVortex (I bought a Jetta) and there was an gargantuan amount of information about my car. Even about dealers in the area etc. A forum is essentially a collection of experience and knowing what someone went through and their opinions based on that is very valuable in your rubric of decision making.

When I was shopping around for home loans once against I hung out in sites that specialized in finance and investing to see what folks had to say about 5-1 ARM etc. There are a lot of resources/groups out there just like there is ones that focus on which cotton photo vest to buy :) and how good it looks with its shiny emboridered patch.

I do agree with the premise that folks SHOULD use the search function before ask the same question as someone else did just 1 day ago. But then it comes down to differences in cognition, like I hate it when folks from other parts of the world refer to a postman as a postie, but thats the way they do things...and I have no right to say its dumb (it is). Similarly others maybe to new to the whole concept of forums and dont know that you can use a search function to get to most of the answers they are seeking for....or they are just too impatient to do that and would rather have a specific answer for their own question (rather than find one is someone else's answer)

[Phil Light]

gjman, I love your sig line. :lol: I also didn't realize what a great photographer, no, artist I was until I counted my "Ls" :D

[CyberDyneSystems]

Moved to "Forum Talk" as the subject is about Forum use and behavior, not really lens related.
This is a forum wide subject, despite being most prevalent in the lens forum.

One thing that Long time members can do to help the situation, which many do not do, is to steer newb questions in the right direction rather than answer the question again.

Most Frequently Asked Questions are answered thoroughly in existing POTN FAQ threads. Sending the OP to these FAQ threads will not only answer the question for them, but will expose them to the myriad other answers found in a FAQ, and show them how to find these answers.

Almost all of our tech forums have these FAQ threads stuck at the top of the forums.

However, take care of Newbs in a helpful way.
"Do a search" is not helpful, your better off not posting at all (in fact it's against the forum rules to post "Do a search" )

Explain to the OP how to find the FAQ's covering the subject, or post a link to the FAQ.

If more members responded this way, then more of the repeat questions would be steering people in the right direction.

We can not expect the "newb" to be the one to know where the FAQ threads are, or what's in them.. this work needs to be tackled by the seasoned member.

[TMCinDC]

My guess is that type of question comes from somebody who really doesn't understand what makes lenses different, i.e., "why is f/2.8 better than f/4?" and why does somebody refer to a 1.4 lens as being "fast"? And "if ISO 1600 allows you to shoot in much lower light, then why not use it all the time?" I've been around cameras so long this stuff seems simple, but when trying to explain it to someone new to the game, I see them really struggling to understand how all this stuff works. Understanding the cockpit controls in a 747 seems easy to a 747 pilot.

Phil,

I like your insight! As for me, I have just started this hobby and look for the input of more experienced users. I do not do this for a living, oddly enough, I tell the 747 pilots where and when to go and how to get there. In my case, as with many I expect, it’s not a matter of laziness or lack of wanting to research, but rather it is just a matter of time and of knowing where to start.
Who better to ask than those who use the equipment every day? Once the “choices” get narrowed down a bit, it becomes much easier and makes more sense when the time does come to purchase the item.
We are all looking for different “things” from forums such as these…some to learn and some to teach. For me, this is a learning forum. For those who would like to know the approach speed of a 747 on a 5 mile final, than I can contribute to the teaching forum.
Thanks to everyone who has patience with the newbies……

[Phil Light]

...For those who would like to know the approach spped of a 747 on a 5 mile final, than I can contribute to the teaching forum.
Thanks to everyone who has patience with the newbies……

Cool! Ok, I think a 747 on 5 mile final is 240 mph. How far off am I?

(Apologies for the thread diversion, somebody get us back on track) :D

[kitacanon]

Reading all this reaffirms that when it comes to information people would rather be told the facts than read and be informed.

There is no reason why people don't read the manual which more often than not has answers to most questions (though I admit sometimes those books bury information) or go a forum's archives and read from the past to the present and learn all that has been posted one page at a time, like reading a book...

...but the web is replacing the book as a medium of getting information and the process of reading and discovery (not only for answers but of questions we don't even know we need to ask) has been replaced by skimming for answers to the questions we have at the moment....and so we keep coming back to ask the same questions that have been already asked and answered.

[CyberDyneSystems]

-WARNING- Rant Ahead..

O-kay, see this is what ticks me off.

It's so easy to fill three pages with complaints about what a newb should know how to do his or her first time on the forum...

But notice how when a post puts the impetus on the experienced and forum literate member, the post is ignored and the active thread goes virtually silent?

My previous post explains EXACTLY how you, the members that are perfectly willing to take the time to complain about others actions, can actually do something to help alleviate the very source of your complaints, and this info falls on deaf ears.

Your the ones that should know how the forum works, your the ones that can take action positive action to alleviate the source of your complaints, but no discussion on that topic at all.

Take the time to positively influence the forum rather than use that time and effort to bash others.

Yes, there will always be horse that won't drink no matter how many time you lead them to water, but don't make that judgment until you've actually tried.

I know there are in fact many members that will take the extra time to not only answer a newbs question, but to "teach him how to fish" as the saying goes. And to those members I thank you and apologize for this rant. You know who you are and you know this is not directed at you.

[DAMphyne]

To cure my ignorance, I asked a question.
I guess it's my fault they thought I was just stupid.

[gjman]

O-kay, see this is what ticks me off.....
It's so easy to fill three pages with complaints about what a newb should know how to do his or her first time on the forum...

Technically the POTN forum pages lengths are influenced by sigs lenghts, avatar size and finally folks quoting the entire posts when hitting the reply button.

Having spent a LOT of time on all sorts of forum I can tell you that how people react to suggestions depends on what they believe is expected off them. POTN is very noob friendly and the other important facet is that not all noobs want to spend time reading (even FAQ) they WANT an answer to THEIR question. There is nothing anyone can do about it. Its comes with the job.

[Double Negative]

There are people that have been around forums before and sort've know the deal.

Then there are people that don't have the experience, but found a great new forum...

Nothing you can do about. You can make all the sticky threads, FAQs and pulsating search buttons you want.

It's up to us, the more experienced members to gently guide the n00bs in the right direction, and as Pekka mentioned, "teaching them how to fish."

[kitacanon]

There are people that have been around forums before and sort've know the deal.

Then there are people that don't have the experience, but found a great new forum...

Nothing you can do about. You can make all the sticky threads, FAQs and pulsating search buttons you want.

It's up to us, the more experienced members to gently guide the n00bs in the right direction, and as Pekka mentioned, "teaching them how to fish."

Do you think that if a new post was programmed with prequalifying questions such as "Have you searched this forum (click here)?" and...Have you read through the archives for your information request (click here)? that people would bother to seek out knowledge when there's an answer ready at hand? I don't think so and I'm not knocking it...just saying that reading for facts and information is different from reading for knowldege and discovery...

[Phil Light]

...It's up to us, the more experienced members to gently guide the n00bs in the right direction...

I think this is the key.

I also think that we just have to understand that as long as new people come here, we are going to see the same questions over and over forever. Just accept it. If you get to a point where that irritates you, skip it and move on. Somebody will answer it. No need to stress about it. The day new people stop coming, that will be when this forum will start going away.

[Double Negative]

Do you think that if a new post was programmed with prequalifying questions such as "Have you searched this forum (click here)?" and...Have you read through the archives for your information request (click here)? that people would bother to seek out knowledge when there's an answer ready at hand? I don't think so and I'm not knocking it...just saying that reading for facts and information is different from reading for knowldege and discovery...

I agree, there's different types of posts - those seeking further details and those that just want an answer. Just reading back to gain as much insight as possible for personal research would be another example (which I typically do a lot of).

In the end, people don't read. Ever watch a door that's clearly marked "pull?" Notice how many people try to push it, instead? :)

It's considered "general knowledge" that one should use the search function - even more so on well-established forums... Since your question has most likely been answered before if not several times over. People that deal with forums regularly, of course, know this. But people that are new to forums, etc. obviously don't know this nor can we expect them to. It's not their fault. Likewise, their questions aren't "stupid" nor are they themselves. It's just the way things are. After a while the n00bs get the swing of things and the "problem" resolves itself.

As more senior members of a forum, we know in the back of our mind that asking if someone should use a filter, for example - has been asked and answered probably a million times. Sure it gets old after a while. But rather than make the problem worse, guiding these posters to existing threads (not just "use search!") is the right way to go. Besides, if it bothers someone that much, just skip the thread and don't read it.

[DAMphyne]

Besides, if it bothers someone that much, just skip the thread and don't read it.
I believe that about sums it all up.
Maybe we should have a form at the start of each thread that makes sure the title gives all of us a good idea what each thread is about. Then we'll all know to ignore it because we don't want to deal with that same darn question again, or they want to know something about stuff we just don't believe in, like using jpeg's, non L's, old cameras, slow computers.
I could go on and on.
Anybody that has the nerve to ask a question deserves an answer. I think that's why we're all here.

[Reefbone]

Ok so Brown has arrived... just kidding :D


I think it's a matter of being an experienced forum user. Many people are still discovering their power. POTN might be their first foray into the wonderful world of forums. Pretty easy to tell from most of the subject lines what it's going to be about. If you don't like it, don't read it. (Same with the UPS just arrived threads)

[Lord_Malone]

I run a popular forum/Website, and I've seen every type of member. I also frequent several boards such as POTN and again, have seen every type of member...

You have the people that have been on the site for a while and have acclimated to the forum's culture. They help out the other side, the newbies - which go on to join the oldtimers after a break-in period.

Sometimes the senior members burn out on answering the same question over and over. But with the constant influx of new members, they then take the reigns for a while.

New members (on every forum out there) rarely start with searches. In most cases new members don't even go through the sub-forums and previous posts to get a lay of the land. It's really powerful. You can answer your own questions fairly quickly most of the time within minutes. If something still doesn't make sense, by all means start a new thread. Cite the threads you read and what doesn't make sense and you'll be surprised, people are much more apt to respond to a post that shows at least some effort.

Nobody can fault someone for having absolutely no clue. We were all there once upon a time. I remember my own days as a n00b. I went to the library, read books and magazines. Even subscribed to "Photo" magazine back in the day - kind of a Joy of Photography in a monthly magazine form. Payback was the first day of photography class in high school when the teacher pointed to the top of an SLR and asked the class if anyone knew what it was. I responded without much thought, "pentaprism!" The class chuckled briefly - until he said, "yep." :D

Sure, you can go to <insert favorite search engine> and search for "24-70mm review" but the results are almost useless. A lot of specialty "review sites" steal (read: buy) keywords such as "review" and you have to filter through all this crap first. Specialized forums like POTN are the best bet for real, easy to digest information. Searching here for the answer is way more likely to result in a usable answer.

But I digress... I like helping the new folks and particpating in discussions - basic and advanced. It reminds me of the principles behind photography, gives me ideas or inspiration and can make you think, keeping everything fresh.

Participating in the critique of each others photos makes you think about your own.

Mike, you're awesome.

[4x4rock]

If everyone came to the forum and searched, (god forbidden if the search engine works correctly), and found the answers to their questions and quietly leave to pursue other happiness and we'll be stuck with 5 months old threads staying at the top along with all the stickies, It'd be a very freaking boring forum!

With the pace the forum is moving, a thread is considered old if it was started 3 days ago.

[kitacanon]

As my stepdaughter was downloading her latest fave tunes, I was thinking that she would never get the idea that albums are like books...you don't download a chapter you like...you read all of them...and tho you can buy a CD of excerpts of symphonies, and best hits compilations...compositions, albums and books are like forums, a narrative of knowledge and experience...
...read (listened) from the beginning they are much more than answers to questions...they are a source of wisdom...

[Double Negative]

Mike, you're awesome.

Thanks, dude. :)

Welcome to the east coast...

[TMCinDC]

Phil,

OK...I've been doing too much of the other and not enough playing. My bosses, and I don't mean locally, don't have very much insight. Six (6) day work weeks are a killer.

As for the question...depending on the airline, it varies from about 180 - 165 knots. Although you weren't too far off, it makes a great deal of difference in landing roll.

Have a nice evening!


Cool! Ok, I think a 747 on 5 mile final is 240 mph. How far off am I?

(Apologies for the thread diversion, somebody get us back on track) :D

[Phil Light]

Phil,

OK...I've been doing too much of the other and not enough playing. My bosses, and I don't mean locally, don't have very much insight. Six (6) day work weeks are a killer.

As for the question...depending on the airline, it varies from about 180 - 165 knots. Although you weren't too far off, it makes a great deal of difference in landing roll.

Have a nice evening!

:D I was wondering if I'd ever get an answer to that question. :D It boggles my mind that that many tons of metal can stay in the air at such a slow speed.