PMA just one day away and no 5D replacement

[SunTsu]

I just did a quick check and realized PMA 2007 starts tomorrow. I'm going to be catching a flight to Italy tomorrow so that means I won't even know if they release anything new for at least 2 days afterwards. :(

I guess the chances of a 5D replacement being announced are almost zero, huh?

[DrPablo]

Not to be cynical, but what would motivate Canon to update the 5D right now?

[coreypolis]

exactly, theres no need for it, and there are actual needs that haven't been addressed. You'll be waiting till fall if not next spring. The 5d is great, enjoy it

[SunTsu]

I agree that there is no competition pushing them to update the 5D. That said, it is the consumer electronics space and products do have life cycles. The 5D is coming up on 3 years and from a marketing perspective, there are P&S cameras that have 10 megapixels, the XTi that has 10 MP, Digig III and so on. So from a product marketing standpoint, it seems to me anyways, that the 5D is being matched on features alone, but cheaper DSLRs and even P&S.

The other thing I think of, though, is that the 5D is positioned for serious hobbyists and professionals who might not be as concerned about features. However, I have to think that a large portion of people who spend $3K on a body, will aslo want to have more bells and whistles in addition to great IQ.

[coreypolis]

the 20d and 20dn (aka 30d) and 1dsmarkII are still older and have rivals ;)

expect those long before a 5d2.

as for features, well that wasn't why it was made, you already have other options. Someday sure, but a pressing need now, no way

[SunTsu]

Well if they do come out with one today, they'll have at least one customer. That's got to be a pretty good reason, don't you think? So they will have sucked me in for two camera bodies in less than 3 months. :)

[coreypolis]

Well if they do come out with one today, they'll have at least one customer. That's got to be a pretty good reason, don't you think? So they will have sucked me in for two camera bodies in less than 3 months. :)
Didn't say they wouldn't sell any, but they will sell 10s of thousands of a 40d and are already losing sales to the d200 and soon to the s5 as we speak.

[sandpiper]

The 5D is coming up on 3 years and from a marketing perspective, there are P&S cameras that have 10 megapixels, the XTi that has 10 MP, Digig III and so on. So from a product marketing standpoint, it seems to me anyways, that the 5D is being matched on features alone, but cheaper DSLRs and even P&S.



I'm sorry, but this is not correct. The 5D isn't coming up on 3 years old, it was introduced at the latter end of 2005 and is only a touch over 18 months old. Whilst it is true that you can buy 10mp P&S cameras, and the XTi, megapixels alone mean very little, sensor size as well as pixel size and quality make far more of a difference than the actual number. Like much in life, quality is more important than quantity. Believe me, the 5D is NOT being matched by the XTi and certainly not by any P&S, 10mp or otherwise.

The primary selling point of the 5D is the full-frame sensor, which brings far more to the party than simply 12.8mp. This has NO current competition on the market, other than Canon's own (much older) 1DsII which is significantly more expensive. In fact, the 5D has been taking a lot of sales away from it's bigger brother already, so a new imporoved 5D would kill Canon's flagship dead.

That simple fact alone, suggests that the 1DsII will need to be replaced and taken further upmarket before a new 5D comes along, in order to keep the balance in the range. I feel that the 1DsIII is probably just around the corner but a new 5D, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[SunTsu]

I totally agree that the IQ on the 5D is still unmatched by anythying below. My point is that from a marketing perspective, they need to up the MP a bit if other cameras are 10 MP. I understand there is sensor size, etc, etc. That's why I got the 5D. That said, there are going to be guys who buy based on price and want something cause it's expensive, they can, and think that more expensive is better. Those same people are going to look at MP and wonder, "What the heck...only 12.8?" I was one of those people just 3 months ago until I did some research about sensors, etc.

I'm still going to hold my breath because for me, it's fun to see new stuff come out and wish. I admit I may be holding my breath for a while though. :(

[coreypolis]

but those people don't know anything about actul photography. Theres nothing really that 12mp can't do. 3mp is enough to make a billboard (we've done it). Uping the MP just to sound cooler? thats ridiculous. a 12mp RAW will convert to well over the 48mb tiff that stock agencies ask for. any extra MP and its just more wasted space on the CF and HD. thats why so many people are happy the 1d3 is 10mp

[sandpiper]

My point is that from a marketing perspective, they need to up the MP a bit if other cameras are 10 MP.

No, they don't. The 5D is aimed at people who understand photography and know that more MP is counter productive and unnecessary. One of the key features of the 5D is it's fantastic quality and noise control at high ISOs, if they up the MP count, they will have to either increase the sensor size even more, or cram more, smaller pixels onto the FF sensor. A larger sensor is impractical and unlikely as (for one thing) it would mean a larger mirror which would likely foul the lens. This just leaves smaller pixels which will make it noisier at high ISOs, reduce IQ and cause it to actually LOSE one of it's best features.

They upped the MP when the XT became the XTi, because at that point in the market they are aiming at snapshooters and not 'photographers' (I'm not saying serious photographers don't use this model, just that they aren't the target market). To THAT market, MP is seen as something magical and more is better. The comparison tests I have seen show that at 400 ISO and above the XTi is noisier and has slightly inferior IQ to the older XT, this is due to the extra pixels crammed onto the sensor.

Most potential buyers for the XTi won't realise this as they are not serious enthusiasts who check out (and understand) all the tech specs before they buy. The 5D market however will not generally be fooled into thinking the camera is better because it gets a few more pixels. I am perfectly happy with 12.8 MP and amazing IQ and low light performance, rather than, say, 17 MP and reduced performance.

The 5D is a great design as it stands, it has NO direct rivals and (as the saying goes) 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. It is only 18 months old and could run another 18 months before rivals start to appear for it. I can't see it being significantly improved upon until more new technology becomes available, although the new processor in the 1dIII could help with upping the frame rate and buffer capacity (possibly the only thing I would like to see an 'upgrade' to at the moment).

[cubano100pct]

Canon can still increase the MP without introducing noise. They can reduce the microlens gap. See http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/technology-e/light_gathering.html

The following is the link on the CMOS sensor.
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/technology-e/index.html

I have a 10D and waiting on the next generation Digic III version of 5D or 30D. Which ever comes first, will probably what I will buy. I think in August it will be the 40D before the 5D. My dream is to get 1Ds Mark III for about the price of a 5D.

[sandpiper]

Canon can still increase the MP without introducing noise. They can reduce the microlens gap. See http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/technology-e/light_gathering.html

The following is the link on the CMOS sensor.
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/cmos/technology-e/index.html



Yes, but that isn't up and coming technology, it's what they have already done in order to create the current CMOS sensor. That is how Canon have created industry leading low noise levels. Having already done it though, they can't do the same thing again on the same sensor.

I am sure that they will come up with another similar leap in technology in the near future, to create a better sensor but, until that technology becomes available, more pixels on the current sensor will result in the poorer sensitivity and a narrower dynamic range that they mention in those links. As the new 1DmkIII still uses this CMOS sensor, I presume that such a new 'super-sensor' is not just around the corner.

[ssim]

What perplexes me is that in your original post you allude to the fact that you are ready to buy and then you tell us :
I'm still going to hold my breath because for me, it's fun to see new stuff come out and wish. I admit I may be holding my breath for a while though.

I think by and large this is a spectator sport a couple of times a year for many people who would love to upgrade but won't.

In all seriosness, what is it that you want to do that you can't do now with your current 5D.

[SunTsu]

What I meant by that post is that I do enjoy seeing technology "improve". I like seeing it, I like buying it and I like owning it. I agree that for many, it may be a spectator sport. Same as in any forum. However, like the BMW forum, there are many people who do buy the second something new comes out. Some lurk, but there are many that upgrade as soon as a new body style comes out. I personally wait until the year after the new body is released so that they can get the kinks out, but I get it because I don't want an old body style...not just because the new car performs better.

In all seriousness, it's not always about what something can do that the old one can't do. Part of the purchase is just getting something newer because it's newer. I'm not a professional, so for me, it's a hobby right along with pen-collecting and new cars. When a new one comes out, I get it.

That said, there are some things on the 5D which I wish were "better".
- frame rate. My old Minolta Maxxum 9000 had a bettter frame rate
- resolution. As I said, I'm not a pro, so I don't always get composition right, so it's helpful for me if I can crop and still get the ability to enlarge, etc. So, the bigger the better for me here. File size doesn't matter to me because I can always get a faster computer and more hard drives...it's not a finite resource, but the resolution is fixed forever, once the shot is taken.
- Timer features. I had to buy a TC-80N3 to take timed shots. Even my SD900 has a customizable feature. Also, the only way to get a 2 second timer for my macro shots now is with shutter lock. That drives me nuts because I take a lot of macro shots.

I've owned every Digital Elph since I got into digital. S500, SD500, SD900. Every model has been an improvement in some ways over the other (with the exception that the SD900 may be a bit noisier than the SD500). That said, I intend to do the same with the 5D. As soon as there is a new one, I'm giving it away to someone in the family.

[d.e.]

SunTsu,

I am considering a 5d, what did you mean about the 2 sec shutter and shutter lock? thanks!

[thekid24]

First off I cant believe it is here already, I remember back in Jan I was itching for it to get here. Now that it is and we already know about the mk3, to me its somewhat anticlimatic. But Im sure I wouldnt say that if I was actually going to PMA.

Some people like to have the newest thing out. Some people HAVE to have it just to say they have it. I dont understand that but its really all preference. Personally I dont have the money to buy everything that hits the shelves, so I tend to stick to what I need as opposed to what I want. Even when I do get enough money to buy all the newest toys I still tend to buy what I need and what suits me.

But it is fun to browse these forums and see all the people post what is wrong with the camera and what needs to be changed because in the end, why do we want the perfect camera body? Why would Canon or any other company want to create the perfect camera? After the perfection is reached then there is no reason to buy more bodies and after a while everyone will have that camera and then companies go bottom up from lack of sales and whatnot. I jokingly convince myself that Canon giggles everytime they put a 'lacking' feature in the newest camera, because they know they dont want that 'Perfect Camera' out there. That would just be too easy.

[cassie83]

If Canon were smart they would come out with an improved 5D first & make all the current 1D owners buy or want to buy the improved 5D ... THEN after a little while, come out with a much improved 1D-series body ... making a second sale from those same new-5D-owners who want the best and greatest :)

~*~ C ~*~


The primary selling point of the 5D is the full-frame sensor, which brings far more to the party than simply 12.8mp. This has NO current competition on the market, other than Canon's own (much older) 1DsII which is significantly more expensive. In fact, the 5D has been taking a lot of sales away from it's bigger brother already, so a new imporoved 5D would kill Canon's flagship dead.

That simple fact alone, suggests that the 1DsII will need to be replaced and taken further upmarket before a new 5D comes along, in order to keep the balance in the range. I feel that the 1DsIII is probably just around the corner but a new 5D, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[coreypolis]

If Canon were smart they would come out with an improved 5D first & make all the current 1D owners buy or want to buy the improved 5D ... THEN after a little while, come out with a much improved 1D-series body ... making a second sale from those same new-5D-owners who want the best and greatest :)

~*~ C ~*~
you haven't had a chance to use a 1 series yet have you? theres far mroe to it than resolution, and you won't see many change back to a prosumer body for mroe resolution.

[cassie83]

??? I don't know where I said anything about more resolution for the 1 series ... ???

you haven't had a chance to use a 1 series yet have you? theres far mroe to it than resolution, and you won't see many change back to a prosumer body for mroe resolution.

[SunTsu]

SunTsu,

I am considering a 5d, what did you mean about the 2 sec shutter and shutter lock? thanks!

Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I just got back from a 2.5 week vacation last night and Internet access in Italy isn't the best.

On the 5D, under the custom functions, there is an option to use "Mirror Lock". If you enable it, the timer is changed from 10 seconds to 2 seconds. I'm going to assume you know what "Mirror Lock" is for so I won't go into it here. If you don't, let me know and I'll look for the exact page number on the 5D manual that you can check out.