Printing Black & White

[Spatch]

Perhaps someone can give me some advise with printing B&W prints (I have done a search on existing threads and have not found anything specific).
I have a 10D, edit my pictures on PS and print on a Canon i950. I have recently started operating in the Adobe RGD colour space (was using sRGB but wanted more colours). The camera is set to aRGB, as is PS and the printer.
The problem I now have is printing proper B&W prints. They come out with a blue tinge :( (I did not seem to have this problem with the sRGB colour space). I have tried changing the setting on the printer preferences (even printing in monochrome) but it still come out bluey.
I do not want to have to print in sRGB again. Apart from changing the colour space, nothing else has changed. Colours look fine on the monitor and colour prints print well also.
Any ideas??
Thanks.

[KennyG]

There is no real advantage going to ARGB unless you are sending your output for magazine print. There are no consumer printers that I am aware of which operate in the ARGB space, they use sRGB. Even using ARGB there is no sudden magical change giving you a whole new set of colours, so don't expect miracles.

You could end up with not only the problem you have now, but also printed colours looking a bit 'muddy'. With the i950 use Tetenal Premium Fine Art Glossy 290g and get the profile for the S9000 from their site which is as close as you can get.

I would suggest you try Q Image and let it manage your printing as it is far better than printing straight from PS. If possible get ICC profiles for your printer and paper.

This thread needs moving.

[msvadi]

did you consider duotones?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/duotone.shtml

[Spatch]

Thanks for the response. The reason I changed from sRGB to ARGB is that the Gamut range was supposed to be better giving more colours. I need the quality to be as good as possible as I sell the prints. Do you not think that the extra colours in ARGB would be noticed on the print??

I have done a few experiments. Going fully back to sRGB (PS and i950) the colours were back to normal. The situation could also be improved (PS in ARGB but varying the colour space for the i950) if the i950 was set to print in sRGB or the Canon bubble jet colour space, but none were as good as sRGB all the way through.

Should I go back to sRGB?

[Roger_Cavanagh]

There is no real advantage going to ARGB unless you are sending your output for magazine print. There are no consumer printers that I am aware of which operate in the ARGB space, they use sRGB. Even using ARGB there is no sudden magical change giving you a whole new set of colours, so don't expect miracles.

This is not true. There are plenty of consumer inkjet printers that do not use sRGB. The issue is not whether the printer has a larger gamut than sRGB - apparently, they don't - but whether the printer is capable of printing colours that are outside sRGB, but within Adobe RGB and within the print profile. This is certainly true. I have some examples here (http://www.rogercavanagh.com/helpinfo/27_gamuts.htm).

Regards,

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Printing B&W using colour inks is always tricky. Custom print profiles may help. Adobe RGB is much bigger than sRGB in blue/cyans/greens so that may be causing the colour cast.

In the absence of custom profiles, you could try converting the B&W images to sRGB just for printing.

Regards,

[Spatch]

Actually, I haven't been totally honest here. I have just compared sRGB with ARGB with a colour print and there is a blue colour cast here also (although I had not noticed it earlier).
The ARGB (1998) profile that I have loaded into the i950 comes from the colour profile list under Winnt\system32 etc (Windows 2000). I am not sure that it is a dedicated Canon ARGB profile. Will this make a difference? I have also noticed that the file type (suffix) after the colour profile for ARGB is .icc whereas for sRGB (and the Canon one) it is .icm - does anyone know if this makes a difference?
Also, does anyone know if the i950 is capable of printing in ARGB? Am I wasting my time trying to do so?

[drisley]

I noticed the same problem (blue tint) with my Canon i450.

So, I calibrated my monitor, and setup Qimage's colour management properly, and that seemed to fix it.

If I remember correctly, icm is for windows and icc is for mac.

[Spatch]

I have done a bit more testing. I have solved the problem with the blue tint on the colour prints by converting to sRGB in PS before sending to the printer (the printer is also set to sRGB). Having done some investigations on the internet it looks as though most desk top printers will not have the gamut of ARGB anyway.
However, I still get the blue tint on the black and white. I have reset PS to sRGB throughout, and then printed in sRGB but I still get the cast. Even if I check the 'Print in greyscale' box on the printer menu it still gives me a blue tint. I have now run out of ideas.
From the above it does not look as if the problem is with PS. It seems that there is a colour issue with the printer itself. I am just wondering if I have got a dodgy ink cartridge but I find this very hard to believe (especially since it prints in colour OK).
Any more advice would be gratefully received.

[ron chappel]

If you can't solve the problem,look through mike johnson's columns on photo.net.
He describes one of the consumer epsons(?) that has a genuinely good inkset option available for B&W.

He also has an article on the 'cone' (?) system of B&W printing which gives genuine world class results when used with certain mid/upper model canon/epson (?) printers

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Having done some investigations on the internet it looks as though most desk top printers will not have the gamut of ARGB anyway.

I said it before and I'll say it again. This is misleading. Plenty of desktop printers can produce colours that are outside sRGB. They may not be able to print ALL the colours in Adobe RGB, but when you choose sRGB you are throwing away perfectly good colour data - of course, that's not true for B&W. :)

Get some decent profiles for your printer. If you check here (http://www.rogercavanagh.com/helpinfo/27_gamuts-02.htm), you will see plots for the Canon S9000. The profile for the Pictorico paper is much larger than the standard Canon profiles.

The printer that Ron alludes to is the HP 7660. This may be the same column as Photo Net, but Mike Johnston wrote about the HP on The Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-14-12.shtml).

"Piezography" (http://www.piezography.com/) is the Jon Cone B&W ink system, but I think it adds up to a non-trivial sum.

Regards,

Fixed typo in printer model

[scottbergerphoto]

Roger,
You are correct as usual. The Epson 2200 is capable of colors outside the sRGB range. There is a nice discussion about this at www.luminous-landscape.com. I just finished looking at your link with the color plots. Nice work!
Thanks,
Scott

[Spatch]

As I am relatively new to the digital darkroom I am trying to vacuum up as much information as possible (from many different souces) to help solve this problem, and it appears some of this may not be correct (i.e many printers will actually print outside sRGB). OK, so forcing the printer to print in sRGB means you loose colour, therefore, it will be better to work entirely in the ARGB colour space. Fair enough, the camera and PS will do this.

You say I need to get some good profiles (not wishing to ask potentially obvious questions), where exactly is the best place to go? I have looked at the WIZIWYG web site (amongst many others) and they have a colour profiling kit for scanners, monitor and printer. I have downloaded the program but would have to order the IT8 target. Would this be a worth while one to go for?

The only issue here, and this is an issue for everyone I suppose, is that I do not have a bottomless pit of money or unlimited time to play around (I do photography/darkroom stuff in evening when I get back from work or at weekends). I have already spent a lot of time trying to get the colour to work properly, and a lot of ink and paper. Getting the colour right is critical and I am happy to invest in a method to achieve it, but I want to get it right first time. :)

One final question. I have also read elsewhere that I should turn the ICM off in the printer dialogue boxes and let PS control the colour management on the printer. This stops the printed file from being 'double profiled'. Would you agree? Would this then mean that I do not need to profile the printer?

Thanks for your help (and patience),

[Roger_Cavanagh]

As I am relatively new to the digital darkroom I am trying to vacuum up as much information as possible (from many different souces) to help solve this problem, and it appears some of this may not be correct (i.e many printers will actually print outside sRGB). OK, so forcing the printer to print in sRGB means you loose colour, therefore, it will be better to work entirely in the ARGB colour space. Fair enough, the camera and PS will do this.

Another benefit from using Adobe RGB, even if your printer does work in sRGB is that you have more control over the clipped colours because you can soft proof in Photoshop to identify which colours are being adjusted and can change the rendering intent (which sometimes make a difference to the end result) and make further editing tweaks to compensate for how colours have been changed.

You say I need to get some good profiles (not wishing to ask potentially obvious questions), where exactly is the best place to go? I have looked at the WIZIWYG web site (amongst many others) and they have a colour profiling kit for scanners, monitor and printer. I have downloaded the program but would have to order the IT8 target. Would this be a worth while one to go for?

The easiest way to get a custom print profile is have someone do it for you. You print the profiling target using the printer+paper+ink you wish to profile and send the print to the profiling firm. If you only use a limited number of papers and stick with the same inks, this probably works out cheaper in the long run. Both my Epson printers (2000P and R800) have some ICC profiles supplied by Epson, and I have acquired others some free and some paid for. I can't recommend any UK-based profiling services as I've not tried any - be interesting to see whether there are any suggestions.

The last profile I had made was done by Andrew Rodney www.imagingrevue.com. It is a subscription site, but you get a free profile as part of the membership benefit - effective value USD 99.

I've also heard good things about www.cathysprofiles.com.

The only issue here, and this is an issue for everyone I suppose, is that I do not have a bottomless pit of money or unlimited time to play around (I do photography/darkroom stuff in evening when I get back from work or at weekends).

Someone once described the cost of owning a boat as like pouring water into a bucket with a hole. Digital photography, alas, is not too dissimilar. :)

I have already spent a lot of time trying to get the colour to work properly, and a lot of ink and paper. Getting the colour right is critical and I am happy to invest in a method to achieve it, but I want to get it right first time. :)

One final question. I have also read elsewhere that I should turn the ICM off in the printer dialogue boxes and let PS control the colour management on the printer. This stops the printed file from being 'double profiled'. Would you agree? Would this then mean that I do not need to profile the printer?

Thanks for your help (and patience),

If you have an ICC profile, then yes you should turn colour management in the printer off and no it doesn't mean you don't have to profile the printer, precisely the reverse. When you print with PS, PS knows the source space of the image - probably, this will be the working space, in ypour case Adobe RGB - you tell it what the print space is , which should take into account the printer and the paper and set the printer not to screw with anything.

If you check the links on this page (http://www.rogercavanagh.com/links/links-06_colourmanagement.htm), especially the articles by Ian Lyons, you should find more detailed explanations.

[slejhamer]

"Piezography" (http://www.piezography.com/) is the Jon Cone B&W ink system, but I think it adds up to a non-trivial sum.


Er, wait - "non-trivial" - that means you think it's a worthwhile investment? Color me confused ... :?: :? :?:

I was seriously thinking about converting an old Epson. Please let me know if you have done any comparisons of this system. Thanks Roger.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

"Piezography" (http://www.piezography.com/) is the Jon Cone B&W ink system, but I think it adds up to a non-trivial sum.


Er, wait - "non-trivial" - that means you think it's a worthwhile investment? Color me confused ... :?: :? :?:

I was seriously thinking about converting an old Epson. Please let me know if you have done any comparisons of this system. Thanks Roger.

"non-trivial" = expensive or, at least, not cheap. :)

I am just starting to think about a custom B&W set-up myself, so I'm not in a position to make other than general observations.

Jon Cone was one of the pioneers in this field and his Piezography system garners a lot of respect, but I know there are other choices.

Regards,

[Spatch]

Roger, thanks for the detailed info. Looks like I will be spending an evening reading about all this.

Basically then, once I have a colour profile for the printer, I select this profile on the PS print dialogue page (rather than sRGB or ARGB etc). At this point the colour management on the printer is off and full colour control is in the hands of PS.

Next to get a profile.

[sp00g3]

the HP's now have a greyscale cartridge that prints beautiful b&w's.. the 7960 is the model i have and its awesome.