New PC Critique

[ilya]

Hey All,

Tell me if I'm nuts. I'd like to build my own system. I've never built one before, but I've made enough upgrades and know my way around to at least think I can do it. :roll:

The following are the main components, I've left out the monitors, dvd etc drives, accessories, etc. as most would come from my old system, and they're pretty new. So below are just the guts. Would order from newegg.com.

I know I may not "need" all that power, but I want it. My main apps are Photoshop, Premiere (video edit), Office. Running XP Pro.

I would also try to overclock it a little bit, just to say I've done it :?

Knowing that most of you guys are tech savvy, I figure I can get some help if I'm going in the wrong direction anywhere.

Thanks in advance.



Intel Pentium 4/ 3.4C GHz 800MHz FSB, 512K L2 Cache, Hyper Threading Technology Model: Intel Pentium 4 3.4C w/ Hyper Threading
Core: Northwood
Operating Frequency: 3.4GHz
FSB: 800MHz
Cache: L1/12K+8K; L2/512K
Voltage: 1.55V
Socket: Socket 478
$425

GIGABYTE i875P Chipset Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU, Model "GA-8KNXP (REV 2.0)"Supported CPU: Intel Pentium 4 Processors(Prescott Ready)
Chipset: Intel 875P + ICH5R
FSB: 800/533/400MHz
RAM: 6x DIMM support Dual Channel DDR400/333/266(ECC) Max 4GB
IDE: 2x UltraDMA 133 RAID, 2x UltraDMA 100 up to 8 Devices
Slots: 1x AGP Pro 8X, 5x PCI, 1x DPS
Ports: 2xPS/2,1xLPT,2xCOM,8xUSB2.0(Rear 4),1xLAN,2xIEEE1394,Audio Ports
Onboard Audio: Realtek ALC658 6-Channel CODEC
Onboard LAN: Intel 82547 Gigabit Ethernet
Onboard SATA/RAID: 4x Serial ATA
Onboard 1394: 2 Ports by TI TSB43AB23
$199

Thermaltake Black Xaser V Damier Full-Tower Case with 420W Power Supply,
Special Features: 4 channel VR fan speed controllers, Digital LCD monitor with blue back lightingmore info
Expansion Slots: 7
Front Ports: Dual USB2.0 & IEEE1934 firewire in front
Power Supply: 420W Power Supply
Cooling System: 2x 80mm (see pics), 3x 90mm
Dimensions: (LxWxH) 17" x 7.5" x 21"
$160

Western Digital Raptor 74GB 10,000RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model WD740GD, OEM Capacity: 74GB
Average Seek Time: 4.5 ms
Buffer: 8MB
Rotational Speed: 10000 RPM
$215
(*** I also have a 200 gig from my old system***)

Corsair XMS Extreme Memory Speed Series, (Twin Pack) 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200PROSpeed: DDR400(PC3200)
Cas Latency: 2-3-3-6
Bandwidth: 3.2GB/s
Special Features: 18 activity LED'S show level of memory activity
$293

ATI RADEON 9800PRO Video Card, 128MB DDR, 256-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP -RETAIL
Chipset/Core Speed: ATI RADEON 9800PRO/380MHz
Memory/Effective Speed: 128MB DDR/680MHz
Ports: VGA Out(15 Pin D-Sub)+TV-Out(S-Video Out)+DVI connector
Support 3D API: DirectX®9, OpenGL®2.0
$232

Total cost of the above: $1,500

A similarly configured Dell XPS is $2,039, and apparently they throw in a cheezy printer and digital camera.

[John_T]

I would get a MUCH bigger HD and, unless you are a gamer, or even if you are, a Matrox video card if you want to do image work, photo or video.

[ilya]

I have a 200 gig I'd put in from my old system. I will put programs and OS on this faster one... I'll look at Matrox a bit closely, is it better then the 9800?

[mttmrphy]

Nothing out there is better than the 9800 (some Nvidia guys would disagree). I agree with the hard drive being too small. You could go larger or install two medium size drives. You may be able to fnd a better price on the motherboard and power supply.

Something else to consider; The 64bit chips are going to be the next thing. With the specs you mention here, you will not be able to upgrade to a faster cpu without changing the board and RAM.

If I were you, I would get a P4 pentium 2.4 -2.8 and save your money for when the 64's are more standard.

I have a 2.4 with 1024mbs of ram, ati 9700, two 80gig hd's. And it moves pretty fast.

I would also check out tigerdirect.com or zipzoomfly.com for parts

[JZaun]

I built a 300mhz processor some years ago, I upgrade about every year and half :D went to 800 mhz, 1.2gihz the 2 ghz. Never been totally happy until I used the Intel main board on last upgrade. Tried 3 other brands because they were cheaper. . I am at a 2gig hz proc and looking to upgrade again and I can with the intel board.. Others I tried wouldn't allow upgrades or wouldn't allow enough.. Check on the upgrad ability of you main PIB! Just my thoughts.

JZaun

PS No matter what you build it will be outdated in 6 months :D

[mttmrphy]

Oh, and building s pc is a lot easier than you think. I built my first one two years ago and have done about a dozen since.

[ilya]

Nothing out there is better than the 9800 (some Nvidia guys would disagree). I agree with the hard drive being too small. You could go larger or install two medium size drives. You may be able to fnd a better price on the motherboard and power supply.

I'll have a 200 gig for storage plus the 74 gig for programs and OS. I figure that should hold me for another 6 mos or so.

Something else to consider; The 64bit chips are going to be the next thing. With the specs you mention here, you will not be able to upgrade to a faster cpu without changing the board and RAM.

Yea, you are right. I looked and read lots of reviews about AMD vs Intel. I guess it boils down to a) in gaming and code crunching AMD 64 bit comes out ahead, but just barely (I have no interest in gaming). b) The 64 bit XP is on the horizon, but there are no apps right now to take advantage of the 64 bit. Anyone hear whether Adobe will go 64 bit anytime soon?

Also, this thing is Prescott ready, and I think I'll be on the Intel path for a while, and when Prescott could outdo Northwood (it doesn't yet but it will), then I could move in that direction pretty easily.

Oh, and building s pc is a lot easier than you think. I built my first one two years ago and have done about a dozen since.

That's the encouragement I need. I just hate to get into another Dell. The last one locked me into that stupid RDRAM situation, ended up overpaying 2x for Ram which is useless to me now.

[Scottes]

I won't build systems without Intel motherboards. I've probably built 50 or 60 PCs from scratch and I came to that decision only a few years ago. For all the other money you're putting into it why not spend a few more bucks for Intel? You may lose a teeny amount of speed, but the compatibility is more than worth it.


And I don't agree with 64-bit chips, but I haven't followed them lately. I've just been waiting for so many years that I got tired of waiting. When they're mainstream, and the software is mainstream, then I'll think about a 64-bit system.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Ilya,

Looks good,. Do the intel chips come with decent cooling? If your going to try to bump up the FSB.. you may be looking at a high end CPU cooler.

Hard Drive:
I like the sound of your dual HD setup.. but I URGE you to take advantage of the onboard RAID and get a second 200GB to mirror,. and keep all your Data on the mirrored volume.

Get a pair of inexpensive removable hard drive trays for the RAID drives.. make swapping easier.

Have fun!

[ilya]

Ilya,

Looks good,. Do the intel chips come with decent cooling? If your going to try to bump up the FSB.. you may be looking at a high end CPU cooler.

Hard Drive:
I like the sound of your dual HD setup.. but I URGE you to take advantage of the onboard RAID and get a second 200GB to mirror,. and keep all your Data on the mirrored volume.

Get a pair of inexpensive removable hard drive trays for the RAID drives.. make swapping easier.

Have fun!

CDS,

Thanks for the advice. The mirrored raid sounds like a perfect solution.

On OC'ing, the case has 5 cooling fans, and a hardcano to monitor /control four of them. Out of all the thinking that went into the components, interestingly enough, the case was the one that took the most time :(
Ilya

[mson]

Since you are not interested in gaming dump the 9800Pro and get a Matrox dual head card. It will save you about $150 and you don't need all the power from the 9800. Plus then you can use dual monitors which is REALLY nice when using PS, etc...

Don't let anyone talk you out of the raptor drive. They are incredibly fast!

I would also consider dropping down one or two processors. The gain in performance is not in line with the increase in price. Save the money or put it towards another raptor, more photo gear, or since you want to OC a water cooling system.

[ilya]

I'd still get the raptor for programs and os and mirror the raids to have a nightly backup, at least that's the way I was thinking about it.

I already use dual monitors on my existing system with a 4800. I don't know how folks go without that.

Which Matrox then, the "MATROX G550 Video Card, 32MB DDR, 64-bit, DVI, 4X AGP, Model "G55+MDHA32DR" " for about $109? This one is only 32mb, I'm thinking that's a limiting factor on rendering video ?

or

MATROX P750 Video Card, 64MB DDR, 128-bit, Dual DVI, 8X AGP Model "P750

The only thing is the dual DVI, can it still run one analog monitor and one DVI?

In what ways are these Matrox cards better then the 9800?

thanks

[Belmondo]

Ilya:
I don't know if you recall or not, but I went through this exercise a couple months ago. I ended up with the same mobo you're talking about with a 3.0Gig P4. I put in a Matrox Parhelia graphics card. I did not put in super-fast drives because I didn't see a cost benefit for the kinds of things I expect to be doing. The case is some generic thing, but it does have a 425W power supply.

I'm really happy with it.

Tom

[CyberDyneSystems]

The Matrox cards are the best choice for 2D graphics work,. by far.. and I beleive they are pretty spiffy for video (matrox make $1,500.00 cards specifically for pro video work too)

As far as the dual DVI,. Check the package contents,. I beleive that Matrox ships these cards with a pair of DVI to VGA adapters,. and yes you can mix and match,. two VGA, two DVI or one of each.

They make the outputs dual DVI because you CAN adapt from DVI to VGA,. but you CAN'T use an adapter to make a VGA port DVI...

So Dual DVI gives the full flexibility.

[ilya]

Ilya:
I don't know if you recall or not, but I went through this exercise a couple months ago. I ended up with the same mobo you're talking about with a 3.0Gig P4. I put in a Matrox Parhelia graphics card. I did not put in super-fast drives because I didn't see a cost benefit for the kinds of things I expect to be doing. The case is some generic thing, but it does have a 425W power supply.

I'm really happy with it.

Tom

Ha, there it is, once again great minds think alike.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24986&highlight=matrox

[timmyquest]

If i may just make a few suggestions.

For what it's worht i've built 5 computers in the last 2 years and currently have a 1.4ghz CPU running at 2.2ghz.

Store -> www.newegg.com (the B&H of computers if you will)

Case-> http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-129-115&depa=0

Hard drive-> (yes the one you have picked out should be quick but not by much) http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-152&depa=0

Thats about all i got, everything else looks good

[evilenglishman]

If i may just make a few suggestions.

Hard drive-> (yes the one you have picked out should be quick but not by much) http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-144-152&depa=0


Dont you dare swap that Seagate for a WD drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You would regret it

##Edit##
Oops! I thought you were ordering a seagate drive.
In any case you should!!!

I just found this on a website regarding s-ata drives:

Note - If you do not have a SATA compliant PSU you must use a converter cable. You can find them here along with SATA data cables.


For the same price as that WD drive you could buy yourself 2 Seagate 7200rpm 120gb drives. Personally I think its a waste of money.

[ilya]

Timmy

Newegg is great. I really like the way they create a happy customer frenzy by always telling you the shipping will take a day or two longer then it really will. All the kids go crazy getting their toys earlier then expected.

Money is not a primary objective here. I'm trying to build the quickest system I can - without doing anything stupid. (stupid would be defined as paying over $1k for a processor)

Having said that, is there a reason I should get a slower drive...?

The Antec case is good, I looked at that. The 3 more cooling fans that come with Thermaltake, the hardcano, and lets face it - the pretty lights and colors make it a better way to go.

Ilya

[John_T]

Ilya, if you get this system, which looks good and fast, forget about OCing. I did it for years, earlier for the real gains in performance and up until a couple of years ago more for the whiz of it. With a fast machine you won't need it and it will only give you lock-ups, crashes, corruption and the biggest pain, heat.

And treat yourself to a Matrox, P750 or Parhelia. I have the Parhelia 256 and nothing will touch it for display quality and image work.

[timmyquest]

Timmy

Newegg is great. I really like the way they create a happy customer frenzy by always telling you the shipping will take a day or two longer then it really will. All the kids go crazy getting their toys earlier then expected.

Money is not a primary objective here. I'm trying to build the quickest system I can - without doing anything stupid. (stupid would be defined as paying over $1k for a processor)

Having said that, is there a reason I should get a slower drive...?

The Antec case is good, I looked at that. The 3 more cooling fans that come with Thermaltake, the hardcano, and lets face it - the pretty lights and colors make it a better way to go.

Ilya


If money is not an issue then by all means get the other case, i cant however vouch for the PSU they put in there (i have no idea honestly). I do know that antec makes some good ones, but for that much money you'd better be getting a decent power supply.

As for the drive, i simply suggested that particular one because your getting a lot of storage for not all that much of a price. Again though if cost isnt anything then get something faster, but 74 gigs isnt all that much for somone who is into digital photography. I've had my Drebel for 3-4 months and i've already got 8gigs of photos on my hard drive.

Dont listen to anyone who tells you that WD's are not good drives they are solid and if you get the SE's they are super fast. If you stick to the name brands (WD segate or Maxtor) you'll get a good drive.

Is a 10,000 rpm SATA drive really much faster then a 7,200 RPM IDE drive...not much. the RPM helps much, but the SATA wont give you anything but a neat case (cable wise). The technology simply isnt there yet to fully use SATA's abilities.

Just my $.02

[timmyquest]

Ilya, if you get this system, which looks good and fast, forget about OCing. I did it for years, earlier for the real gains in performance and up until a couple of years ago more for the whiz of it. With a fast machine you won't need it and it will only give you lock-ups, crashes, corruption and the biggest pain, heat.

And treat yourself to a Matrox, P750 or Parhelia. I have the Parhelia 256 and nothing will touch it for display quality and image work.

I agree, if you've got the cash and arent the type who simply enjoys tweaking for tweaks sake then dont bother oc'ing it. I overclocked my computer for 2 reasons.

#1 the biggest, at the time i bought my system i bought my CPU for $40, it ran at the same speed of AMD's $360 cpu...you do the math

#2 i enjoy it, it's a hobby of mine.

It's not always easy, and if you are impatient it can be costly.

[CyberDyneSystems]

RE OCing,..

I used to push my hardware till it squealed for mercy.. I was an early adopter of overclocking frenzy. I had Abit's original "softmenu" menu bios board.. (tx chipset with an AMD 233)

Now I never do it... I desire the stability.

[nomel]

Hard disks are getting cheap...get a big one.

At fry's, you can get a Western Digital 200gig, 7200rpm drive with 8mb cache for $99 (mail in rebate).

Before you buy a huge drive. Search on google or groups.google.com for something like "Western Digital 200 gig died" or something. It seems that some of the larger drives are fairly unstable. I have read a lot more of Maxtor drives dying than anything else (although, some people never have problems).

[IanD]

ilya,
You cannot go wrong with an Antec PS. If ya want pretty loghts, get the TrueBlue. We have built a dozen units in the past 2 years and even though various parts have died due to "I can tweak it a little more" not one of the Antec PS's went south. Good clean power.

[evilenglishman]

Dont listen to anyone who tells you that WD's are not good drives they are solid and if you get the SE's they are super fast. If you stick to the name brands (WD segate or Maxtor) you'll get a good drive.


sorry but i really have to disagree with you on that. I've suffered from a number of WD drives going bad for no apparent reason.
I have had 2 brand new WD drives make 'clunking and rattling' noises as soon as I started trying to use them - WD tried to tell me it was normal and tried everything they could to make me keep them.
Their support was slow, arkward and robot-like.
I actually sent the guy who was dealing with my support request a mail asking if i was talking to an automated system. He replied with "no, we are all real people here" hahaha. But at the time I genuinly thought it was an automated system.
Over the past 5-6 months I have got rid of all WD/Maxtor/IBM drives I owned (the last one, 2 weeks ago was an IBM I bought 2 years ago reporting bad blocks).
I now only buy Seagate disks. I've never had a problem with them. If you do some searching around you will find more people have problems with WD/IBM/Maxtor than with Seagate disks.

[JZaun]

Well WD have been good for me. I have one in my PC that is 6 years old and not a minutes problems. I have upgraded the system many times and kept the original drive. I just added a scond drive and it was WD. The PC shop where I buy most parts quit handling any drive except WD because they have had too many problems with others. They build custome PC's for individual and businesses. If I get another it will surely be a WD! Evil you just been unlucky :D

JZaun

[evilenglishman]

take a look at this:
http://www.driveservice.com/bestwrst.htm
http://dfarq.homeip.net/article.php?story=1231


From 1997 to about 2000, I saw more dead Western Digitals than every other brand, combined. And I saw a lot of drives come across my desk.

[timmyquest]

No buisness is going to stay in buisness if their products never work, and you just named the 3 leaders in this industry and your telling us they all break....doesnt make sense.

[pradeep1]

Overall specs look good.

I'd spend the $200 budget on two good 200 GB 7200 RPM, 8MB cache Seagate or Western Digital harddrives. That will give you 400 GB, which you will use up in a few months anyways. :wink:

[evilenglishman]

No buisness is going to stay in buisness if their products never work, and you just named the 3 leaders in this industry and your telling us they all break....doesnt make sense.

I didn't say they never work. They are known to have a higher failure rate.
If you want to buy those brands then its your choice.

[nomel]

evilenglishman...nice link.

hahah...and looking at the top descriptions...it looks like they all suck besides seagate! I guess I know what my next drive will be :)

but...makes me wonder how much those results have to do with popularity. If everyone buys honda's, and that's all the mechanics see, then hondas must be unreliable :P :P but, I have heard that I've been lucky with my WD (it wasn't one listed on the site though). None of these drives are made anymore, so hopefully everyone is getting better...although I've heard the opposite with the large drives.

"5. Toshiba (notebook drives only). Good engineering! Generally good all the way around, but can develop bad heads in some models. As always, just keep it backed up."

I can second that. My laptop hard drive died within a year! Got a nicer fluid bearing Fujitsu to replace it..

[ilya]

Update:

Got all the mobo and stuff within 4 days of ordering, and the case within 3 days. Newegg does well on that.

Took everything out, actually read a good bit of the instructions. The scant guidance that came with the Thermaltake case were written by either an angry 8 year old, or one of those web translator programs. And this is the one part of the system that needs good guidance, there are 5 cooling fans, a digital control box for the cooling, which means that there is about a kilometer of wiring. Its not as bad as all that, the case is solid and great looking, lots of headroom, easy to use. Just takes patience.

It is a much better looking case then yours, Tom. Guaranteed. :lol:

So after reading the instructions (which I normally never do ahead of time, only after I get stuck) I installed the CPU and heatsink onto the motherboard. So far so good. Installed the memory - minded the right slots for matched pairs, else the (pretty good) instructions for the mobo instructed I wouldn't get dual channel.

Inserted the mobo into the case, read lots more instructions for both the case and the mobo, and proceeded to painstakingly hook everything up. There are bizarre individual pin plugs for the USB and IEE394 routed to the top of the case that beg the question - why not just make a freakin' plug?

(right now the case is on its side on top of a table, looks like something exploded, with everything sticking out and parts being everywhere. Compounded with that I took the old system apart to transfer over the DVD RW, HD the 200 Gig, and the graphics card).

Installed the floppy drive, HDs, and installed the DVD RW - nice feature being screwless. Works as advertised. Just smack on some rails, and slide it in.

Great, I'm feeling good about myself and life in general.

You probably by now get the sense that not all is groovy.

I flip the switch. Nothing. I try 28 different things. Unplug everything, back to basics - mobo, chip and powersupply. Nothing.

Take the mobo to the local CompUSA. The tech dude pronounces the board DOA.

By now you are thinking along the same lines as I was - what a dumbass, why not try the board BEFORE hooking everything up.

Yes, lesson learned the hard way. Though I have to say, now that I've done it once, its going to go pretty quick next time.

Stay tuned for next episode, of when I get the replacement board and chip, and may even get to the point of mucking around the bioses (there are dual bios on this board hence the plural), the satas, raids, etc. I have a feeling that hooking stuff up would be the hard part.

Ilya

PS, meantime, I reassembled the old system in under 5 minutes. That's progress.

[dicky109]

You may want to re-think the ATI card. According to this thread

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1004&message=8324569

ATI will no longer support color management other than their own software solution (no Spyder, Monaco, etc.)
Seems Matrox is the way to go.

[ilya]

UPDATE

After getting a mobo that works from newegg, I've been running the new system (yay) for a couple of weeks now, and overclocked for about two days.

It was easier then I thought, but also more tedious then I thought.

To recap,
- Intel 3.4C, overclocked to 3.57
- Gigabyte P4 Titan 875P Motherboard, FSB 800, Dual Channel DDR400, Dual Bios, Dual Power System2, 8KNXP ver2.0
- 1 gigabyte of Corsair XMS (extreme memory system) DDR400 ram, dual channel (twin pack)
- housed in a Thermaltake case, 420w, 5 fans, hardcano.
- WD Raptor 74gig 10,000 rpm (for programs) sata drive
- Maxtor 250gig 7,200rpm sata. Another one to come so i could raid.


I did have a 2yo 200gig Maxtor go bad on me during the swap betw old and new case, but I'm pretty sure it was my fault that it went south. I called Maxtor, and these folks were great. They upgraded the 200gig ata to a 250 gig sata at no charge, and delivered in 3 days.

On the OC'ing, the mobo comes with software that allows you to do it from within the OS. Bad idea, bad program. Much better to do it from bios. Next - will try to optimize the mem speeds.

The mobo also has this feature that supposedly allows you to flash your bios with your favorite photograph (so it comes up on boot). I've tried every possible size / dimension pic, and it just doesn't work. Oh well.

I've not gotten a new graphics card yet. I've seen lots of good reviews on Matrox on this board, but I've seen a lot of bad reviews elsewhere. So I'm "getting by" with my old board MSI 4600 running Nvidia Geforce 4 with 128mb. Its totally fine, runs 2 monitors perfectly, I may just leave it there.

Bottom line to all this - the system SCREAMS. Its an absolute monster. Photoshop CS loads in about 6 seconds, while Premiere is processing vid in the background. My favorite sharpening action is like a split second. All good.

Here are the before and after :lol:

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4220473&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

http://images.fotopic.net/?id=4220472&outx=600&noresize=1&nostamp=1

[Belmondo]

Ilya:
I have the same mobo in my new system. If you figure out how to flash the image, let me know please.

Does all the eerie blue light coming off the box give you any color correction problems in PS?

I’m only running a 3.0gig P4 without any overclocking (too much of a wuss to try), but my system is plenty fast as it is.

Pretty sexy.

[ilya]

Lol Tom, no color probs, but my feet are giving off an eerie blue glow.

Btw, I just got it up to 3.67, and its stable; PS is running as are a couple other apps. Its easy, just go into the bios, and tweak it a bit at a time - don't need to do it, but its kind of fun

[tommykjensen]

If nobody said this before:

Remember RAID is in NO way a substitute for backup! Both harddiscs can fail due to power problems or other nasty things. Also it does not protect against accidental deletes, correputed files etc.

You need to run regular backup's either to CD, DVD or the good old way on tapes.