which photo editor

[J D Skate]

Should I buy Elements 5.0 now(will it be better than photostudio?)???
Or should i save my money and buy lightroom or cs3

[Stavhp]

save your money for cs3, i know its a lot but you can do soo much more

[gparvan]

What do want/need to do with the editor?
I use LightRoom and 95% of my edit needs are handled. I think you can still pick up Lightroom for $200.

[Mike2005]

What do want/need to do with the editor?
I use LightRoom and 95% of my edit needs are handled. I think you can still pick up Lightroom for $200.


I've read/heard this same thing from several others. What is this mysterious 5% of workflow that Lightroom can not handle?:confused:

[thekid24]

I have both elements 5 and photostudio and elements completely blows it out of the water. But as for editing color curves and whatnot Lightroom blows that out of the water. Ive downloaded the trial version of LR and love it. And converting RAW is alot faster and easier. Ill have to save up and get lightroom soon.

[gparvan]

I've read/heard this same thing from several others. What is this mysterious 5% of workflow that Lightroom can not handle?:confused:

Occasionally I need to modify the photo in a way that LR doesn't support, or doesn't handle as well as it should. For example dust spot removal, LR does a pretty darn good job but sometimes I need to use my editor (The GIMP) to remove a problem dust spot. Another example would be sharpening. LR will do it but not as nice as it could be.

[mace0002]

I think you can get Lightroom for $199.00 until the end of April...just FYI.

[davidcrebelxt]

Occasionally I need to modify the photo in a way that LR doesn't support, or doesn't handle as well as it should. For example dust spot removal, LR does a pretty darn good job but sometimes I need to use my editor (The GIMP) to remove a problem dust spot. Another example would be sharpening. LR will do it but not as nice as it could be.

I use the GIMP for those VERY rare times I need to do a layer mask or have actual NEED to use curves.

Otherwise Lightroom currently handles 90% plus of all my needs (it also handles jpegs and tiffs, in case you didn't know.) And I'll use Elements 3.0 for the rest. They're a pretty good combination. And together still cost less than half of what CS3 will run you.

But decision all deends on your personal needs. Some people are prepared for and need/understand/ and use the functions in CS3. But Elements is a VERY VERY good image editor, and often doesn't get the respect it deserves from people who use CS2 or CS3(beta). But for less than $100 it does a good portion of what CS does. Many complain that curves in PSE 5.0 is limited.... but its also limited in Lightroom (and haven't heard many people complain about that.) It's basically set in both to help prevent blowing out highlight, which is nice. (That said, I don't have any working experience using curves in Elements 5.0)

My best advice is sit down, compare list of features between Elements and CS2/3, and decide if those features are worth the extra cost... the decision will be different for everyone.

[R Hardman]

I'm still using PS.5 and it worked just fine for me since the latter 90's. I will be upgrading one CS3 hits the street. BTW, Elements has roughly 1/3 the functionality of CS2.

[gparvan]

I'm still using PS.5 and it worked just fine for me since the latter 90's. I will be upgrading one CS3 hits the street. BTW, Elements has roughly 1/3 the functionality of CS2.

Cool!!

I still have a copy of PS4 laying around here somewhere!!! :lol:

[davidcrebelxt]

I'm still using PS.5 and it worked just fine for me since the latter 90's. I will be upgrading one CS3 hits the street. BTW, Elements has roughly 1/3 the functionality of CS2.




even if so:

Question is, how much of that other 2/3 will you actually use if you are not heavy into graphic design?

Also, elements does have some features that CS2 lacks, and many new to the PP world like and can make use of. (Organizer, simple BW, templates for scrapbooking and other output options.) Plus you'll still have Levels control, layers, adjustment layers, healing brush, smart-sharpen, support for majority of plug-ins, support for WACOM tablets, and a whole host of other standard features... there's alot there in that $80 package.

My point is each application has its place. MANY people seem to bash Elements because they've heard its photoshop "lite", but they've never looked into it, or actually opened it up themselves. Others clearly use and require those tools in CS2 for thier work... and for them its worth the extra $500.

I just think its a dis-service to tell someone new to PostProcessing, a non-pro, or a hobbyist that they NEED a $600 program; when an $80 one may be sufficent enough to keep them engaged and busy for several years.

That's why I stick by my intitial response... each person needs to decide for themselves which fits their needs/budget/and expertise. There are trials available for both.

Reminds me of something I've heard for a long time about getting started in Astronomy.... The best way to discourage a child interested in Astronomy is to buy them a big expensive telescope and throw them out in the backyard... it just leads to frustration and disappointment...

You start out in small steps, binoculars, let them learn to identify stars and planets, then move up as they develop...

I think the general principle holds true for photography too, whether that be cameras or software side of things.

[Bob Sherwood]

I'm a studio owner with 2 full time studios, shooting about 50 wedding per year and have used DPP by Canon for some time. It does everything I need to make a considerable profit on each job. What exctly will light room do that I can't do in DPP?

[convergent]

Should I buy Elements 5.0 now(will it be better than photostudio?)???
Or should i save my money and buy lightroom or cs3


This is one of those, "if you have to ask" type questions. ;) Most of my experience is in CS2 vs. Elements. In fact, I just had my first real experience with Elements a few weeks ago at a school. I was doing portraits for their yearbook, and the yearbook... and they wanted to do something for the seniors that could not be done in the yearbook companies standard templates. I created a template for them and was all set to create the pages with their text. They then told me they wanted to have the kids on the yearbook team to do it! OK... great. They also told me they had Photoshop on all their computers in the computer lab. We scheduled a time and I showed up ready to show them how to update my PS CS2 template for each page. When I got there, much to my surprise, the machines all had an older version of Elements on them.. I think 3.0. Amazingly, I walked these young ladies through dealing with layers, moving images in and out, cropping them, etc. I was surprised how MUCH was in Elements, and came away wondering how many people really "need" PS CS2 for what they do. PS CS2 is a very powerful product, but it is used for many things beyond photo editing... most notibly Graphics Design and Web Design... which add a great deal of capability that a photographer will likely never need. And PS CS2 is very non-intuitive to use... so the learning curve is a bit long. Once learned though, it is more powerful than anything else. I use it nearly every day and I still have to go on the web and look for tutorials to do many things. Elements is designed to be used by a novice, but still has a lot of capability.

Now bring Lightroom into the picture. Lightroom is a completely different paradigm. It is an image database and meta data editor. Where PS CS2 or Elements lets you edit an image, Lightroom lets you edit a virtual image.. and then it can export an edited image when you need it... to web, printer, file, etc. Lightroom has a lot of the same features as Camera RAW in PS CS3 (in beta now). But they are deployed differentlly.

Someone asked what the "5%" of edits were that Lightroom can't do. Well I would rather say that Lightroom can do all your "processing".... its some of the more involved retouching and editing that you'd need PS CS2 for. Lightroom has all you need for exposure, color, curves, levels, fill, crop, etc. .. and even has clone/heal and red-eye removal thrown in for good measure. Its when you need to do more than that, you need PS CS2. As an example, if you wanted to remove some wrinkles from a face, or correct distortion in building shot, etc... retouching. You also can't really do masking in Lightroom, so if you wanted to make changes to one area of an image, but not the other... you'd have to go with PS CS2 for that. However, the curve and color controls let you isolate colors and luminosity levels which often avoids the need for a traditional mask.

Each of these is really aimed at different intended use...

Elements - Image Editor (Processing and Post Processing)
PS CS2/3 - Image Editor (Processing and Post Processing), Graphic Design, Web Design, and more
Lightroom - Image Library, Workflow, and Image Processing

[davidcrebelxt]

I'm a studio owner with 2 full time studios, shooting about 50 wedding per year and have used DPP by Canon for some time. It does everything I need to make a considerable profit on each job. What exctly will light room do that I can't do in DPP?

My biggest problem is highlight recovery... DPP I sometimes can't get to recover blown out highlights, whereas LR easily does.

Otherwise, a few nice tools (straightening an image, targeted adjustment tool to easily adjust colors (and black and white images) Turn on the tool, click on the color you want brightened or darkened... pretty slick.. also redeye tool, and a number of others.

That said, others who already have good workflow with DPP, and haven't seen highlight problem don't see the need to switch to LR... give the 30-day trial a download... but the price jumps $100 at the end of April. (also a new version of DPP is in the works for release with the MARK III, not sure of full additions there.)

[Longwatcher]

I too find the latest version on DPP does almost all of what I need, however there is that small 5-10% which need something from PS CS2. If all I need is a little bit of cloning then the stamp tool in DPP is fairly good and I will usually try that first. It is not as flexible as Spot heal, heal, clone and patch combination in PS, but it works pretty good. I especially like the light and dark spot correct (although spot heal usually works better).

Now want is something other then need and I almost always use both DPP and PS CS2, because I will fix WB, Contrast, Saturation, Exposure in DPP, crop, then transfer to PS CS2 for final editing. For those times when I don't need anything but the airbrush action I have set up in PS, then I will batch the jpegs out of DPP at full resolution then run the action, which will size them if needed from PS bridge.

The important thing is do what works best for you and what you shoot and how you work. the object being to make the job easier so you have more time to take pictures.

Just my experience and opinion,

[aaronpass]

Lightroom from academicsuperstore.com is only $100.

[convergent]

I'm a studio owner with 2 full time studios, shooting about 50 wedding per year and have used DPP by Canon for some time. It does everything I need to make a considerable profit on each job. What exctly will light room do that I can't do in DPP?

Bob, so you are saying you have two full time studios and don't use any software but DPP? That is kind of amazing if true. I can't imagine any active studio not using Photoshop in some capacity.

To answer your question, Lightroom is a database system, more or less. It handles ingesting, selecting and cataloging your images... then most processing... and finally outputting to print, web, or slideshow. It being an open architecture, it will have expanded capabilities going forward.

If you are making a considerable profit and have managed to get by with only free software, then my advice is to probably stick with that plan.

[convergent]

Lightroom from academicsuperstore.com is only $100.

Keep in mind that I don't believe Adobe allows upgrades to academic versions... so this plan might bite you in the future if you can't upgrade to a newer version in the future, vs. the current $199 special for a full version.

[gparvan]

Nice write up!



This is one of those, "if you have to ask" type questions. ;) Most of my experience is in CS2 vs. Elements. In fact, I just had my first real experience with Elements a few weeks ago at a school. I was doing portraits for their yearbook, and the yearbook... and they wanted to do something for the seniors that could not be done in the yearbook companies standard templates. I created a template for them and was all set to create the pages with their text. They then told me they wanted to have the kids on the yearbook team to do it! OK... great. They also told me they had Photoshop on all their computers in the computer lab. We scheduled a time and I showed up ready to show them how to update my PS CS2 template for each page. When I got there, much to my surprise, the machines all had an older version of Elements on them.. I think 3.0. Amazingly, I walked these young ladies through dealing with layers, moving images in and out, cropping them, etc. I was surprised how MUCH was in Elements, and came away wondering how many people really "need" PS CS2 for what they do. PS CS2 is a very powerful product, but it is used for many things beyond photo editing... most notibly Graphics Design and Web Design... which add a great deal of capability that a photographer will likely never need. And PS CS2 is very non-intuitive to use... so the learning curve is a bit long. Once learned though, it is more powerful than anything else. I use it nearly every day and I still have to go on the web and look for tutorials to do many things. Elements is designed to be used by a novice, but still has a lot of capability.

Now bring Lightroom into the picture. Lightroom is a completely different paradigm. It is an image database and meta data editor. Where PS CS2 or Elements lets you edit an image, Lightroom lets you edit a virtual image.. and then it can export an edited image when you need it... to web, printer, file, etc. Lightroom has a lot of the same features as Camera RAW in PS CS3 (in beta now). But they are deployed differentlly.

Someone asked what the "5%" of edits were that Lightroom can't do. Well I would rather say that Lightroom can do all your "processing".... its some of the more involved retouching and editing that you'd need PS CS2 for. Lightroom has all you need for exposure, color, curves, levels, fill, crop, etc. .. and even has clone/heal and red-eye removal thrown in for good measure. Its when you need to do more than that, you need PS CS2. As an example, if you wanted to remove some wrinkles from a face, or correct distortion in building shot, etc... retouching. You also can't really do masking in Lightroom, so if you wanted to make changes to one area of an image, but not the other... you'd have to go with PS CS2 for that. However, the curve and color controls let you isolate colors and luminosity levels which often avoids the need for a traditional mask.

Each of these is really aimed at different intended use...

Elements - Image Editor (Processing and Post Processing)
PS CS2/3 - Image Editor (Processing and Post Processing), Graphic Design, Web Design, and more
Lightroom - Image Library, Workflow, and Image Processing

[Glenn NK]

I'm a studio owner with 2 full time studios, shooting about 50 wedding per year and have used DPP by Canon for some time. It does everything I need to make a considerable profit on each job. What exctly will light room do that I can't do in DPP?

Bob:

I used DPP for five months, and thought it was pretty good.

Then I tried the Beta of Lightroom; liked it so much that the day it became available online, I paid for it with my Visa card and downloaded it.

Since I've been using Lightroom (about 2 Feb 06) I've opened DPP about three times, and every time, I wonder how I managed with DPP.

I've not been a wedding photog, but it's my feeling that Lightroom would be extremely useful for a wedding photog.

For example: in DPP, you can adjust the RGB channels, in Lightroom you have eight colours that can be adjusted individually and very easily (red, orange, yellow, green, aqua, blue, purple, and magenta). To make the Bride's orange flowers stand out, activate the saturation button, put the cross of the cursor on the flowers, and either: tap the up arrow, or holding down the left mouse button, slide the mouse up. You use the same procedure for every adjustment there is.

If you have a number of pics requiring the same settings (such as crop, contrast, balance, temp, brightness), fine tune one image, and copy the settings to all the others; they're done!! Spots can be removed the same way.

The contrast curve is so simple to adjust, it's almost a joke.

Download it and try it for free for 30 days - I'm betting you will never go back to anything else.

[gparvan]

As I've watched this thread and path it has taken, one thing just occured to me; what are your Post Processing requirements?

From those requirements a good match can be made for the best solution whether it be CS3 or The Gimp or something in between.

Without requirements we are all just vexing our own choice.

[convergent]

Download it and try it for free for 30 days - I'm betting you will never go back to anything else.

You might want to watch some of the tutorial videos as well... the one on Luminous Landscape is very good, although its not free.

[Glenn NK]

http://www.lightroomkillertips.com/archives/videos/

http://www.photoshopuser.com/lightroom/index.html

http://pictureflow.fileburst.com/_Tutorials/Photoshop_LR/02/index.html

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=%20product_info&cPath=13_14_16&products_id=126

http://www.photoshopsupport.com/lightroom/index.html

http://www.simplephotolife.com/simplevideo/search_result.php?search_id=lightroom&search_typ=search_videos&x=27&y=7

[Bob Sherwood]

I actually have CS2 on my HD but never took the time to learn it. I started using Paint Shop Pro when it first came out and have stayed with it. Version 11 does everything most people use CS2 for. About the only time I get into CS2 is when I need to convert from RGB to CMYK for 4 color promotional printing of postcards, etc.

[In2Photos]

Keep in mind that I don't believe Adobe allows upgrades to academic versions... so this plan might bite you in the future if you can't upgrade to a newer version in the future, vs. the current $199 special for a full version.
Actually the EDU version is upgradeable."Professional/commercial use
Student question
"I'm very interested in buying the Education version of Adobe Creative Suite, but first I want to know if the software can be used to produce work for paying customers once I am working in the industry, or do I have to buy a different version of Creative Suite once I'm working in the industry?”

Answer
Good news! You can use Adobe Education software (any title!) to produce commercial/professional paid-for work when you leave school, or even while you are in school. In this regard, Adobe does not limit how student software is used. So students can use it to learn and to make money!

(Of course, students must agree to the terms of the End User Licensing Agreement — which appears during installation — just as every software customer must do.)



Education version
Student question“Is the Education version a scaled-down version? How is it different than the more expensive retail version I see being sold at other computer stores?”

Answer
The Education and retail versions are virtually identical — we do not modify the software itself. To differentiate the product offering between education and retail, we may remove some clip art, some fonts, or other non-application resources. So really, the only difference is price. Student customers can be assured that this as an opportunity to get the “full version” without paying the “full price”.



After graduation
Student question“What happens after I graduate? If a new version comes out that I want to buy, do I have to buy the full new retail version or can I save money and just buy the retail upgrade?”

Answer
You are able to continue to use your Education version serial number when you leave school to upgrade to future commercially priced versions if you want to, rather than having to buy the next “full” version. So you save money now while you are a student, and also after you graduate!"

[convergent]

I'm not sure that these quotes from their website are necessarily valid for Lightroom, nor do they actually say that you can upgrade for the same price as a commercial customer. In fact, there is quite a bit of discussion on other forums about Adobe's upgrade policy for academic versions. In my case, I'm buying this for commercial use so I'd have a hard time buying in a company's name and then trying to say I'm a student... or its for my kid... so its a moot point... but if you can get away with a cheaper version then go for it.

[Mike2005]

I currently use DPP as I just recently started sooting RAW. I like DPP (although really have nothing to compare it to), but I am drawn to what appear to be more powerful programs....of course CS3 and Lightroom. CS3 is definitely overkill for my needs and I really can not say that I will ever employ a fraction of its capabilities. Still, having the capability that I feel I may never use is comforting in that if I ever need it, it's there and presumably I could learn how to employ it. On the other hand, I really like what I hear about Lightroom. My problem is that from what I understand, its sharpening capability is not very good. Right now, this is the single most aspect that troubles me about Lightroom. Otherwise, I think I would go out and buy it today. Price is not really an issue because I am able to take advantage of the academic discounts. Ideally, I could get them both, but that would be about $400 with the academic discount and it's really one or the other (if I want to stay married that is). Any advice for a compatible program with Lightroom that can handle what Lightroom otherwise may lack. I know the Gimp was mentioned? Does that program handle sharpening well? I know, I should probably just dowlnoad the trial version and see for myself!!!!

[davidcrebelxt]

Gimp is free, actually opensource. And yes, it does sharpening (your typical unsharp mask). While it is nice, and I still use it myself, I admit it is clunky in ways, and I don't believe color-management is fully implemented yet (supposed to be coming in version 2.4 I believe). Short of spending the cash for CS3 (then lawyer fees for divorce :) ) I suggest Photoshop Elements 5.0. Its colormanged, has several different sharpening methods, and alot of tutorials can be found, and around $80-$90 typically.

Also have heard good things about Corel Paintshop Pro XI Photo (But I've never actually used it myself.)

Those 3 pieces of software are probably the best editing choices for those of us trying to watch how much we spend, IMHO.

I personally mainly use LR and Elements, and they're a good match for me.

[Jon_Doh]

Elements does 2/3's what CS3 does, not 1/3.