Tims Wedding Workflow

[tim]

I've had a few requests for information about my wedding workflow, so here goes. I can usually get color corrected images from a wedding onto the web within 12 hours of starting this process: 6 hours of my time to cull, 6 hours to color correct, plus 1 hour of computer processing time/upload time. When I started doing this it took a LOT longer, perhaps 20 hours: you get a lot faster with practice and experience. The better you are at shooting good exposures the less time it'll take. If you do printed proofs just use the JPGs produced by step 7, let the lab worry about downsizing.

Hardware:
- Intel Q6600, 4GB RAM, three hard drives, windows XP (self built)
- External USB2 card reader (you can use two at once if you want). Sandisk Extreme 3 card reader with the matching cards are pretty quick.

Software:
- DIM from http://www.alanlight.com to download images from the cards. I run multiple instances of this program at once. No longer used - I just use windows explorer.
- Adobe CS4 Bridge/Photoshop
- Photographers shopping cart (http://www.picturespro.com/)
- FileZilla ftp client - http://filezilla.sourceforge.net

Shooting/setup stuff:
- Synchronise the times of each camera with your PC clock using EOS viewer (or whatever Canon software replaced it) BEFORE each wedding. This is ESSENTIAL.
- Shoot RAW (please don't turn this into a JPG/RAW thread, I won't answer queries about this. This is what I do and it works for me).
- Since I started shooting with manual exposure and a hand held light meter my post processing time has decreased. I still use Av mode and partial metering for situations where the lighting changes more rapidly than I can meter manually. Sometimes I just use the histogram instead of the light meter. I never focus manually.

Philosophy: I used to use this to make proofs, reasonable quality, not fully finished. That means another pass later to do final correction. I've found this inefficient, so I now do full color correction in this workflow. I correct everything to color, then apply my sepia preset to some images.

I do a first pass to do the initial cull, then I do a second pass to cull some more and do the color correction.

Steps:
1) Copy each card to a subfolder of the customers event folder on my hard drive. Manually check image counts. The CS4 Bridge download function is faulty, it only downloads some of the images, don't use it. Once verified copy all images to root of customers folder.
2) Point bridge at the folder and give it some time to create thumbnails. Wait until after the images have all copied else thumbnail generation sometimes goes weird.
3) Check to see all images are present. You can check using image numbers or visually, preferably both ways.
4) Change the bridge sort order to by date modified and visually check the images are in the correct order. If they're not change the sort order to by date. I never remember which one actually works. If they're still not you didn't do the pre-shooting stuff listed above. Sort them manually.
5) Use the bridge batch rename function to rename your images to something meaningful to you. I use a combination of the customer initials and initially a 4 digit number. This way I can sort by filename during processing, which is faster/more reliable than sorting by date, especially once psd files are created (though I don't make many of them).
6) Quickly review each image, and do the following (with practice it takes a couple of seconds max per image for most images)
- Hit the keys 1-5 to indicate how good the image is. My system is 1=unusable for a technical reason, 2=duplicate image or not worth showing, 3=good image, 4=image that will probably go into an album, 5=image that will go into my portfolio. You can use any system you like. In CS3 bridge it's control-1 instead of just 1, etc.
- Label the images if something needs to be done. eg I might have labels "photoshop work required", "apply a special effect later", etc.
- If the exposure or contrast needs to be adjusted double click and adjust as necessary. I don't worry too much for the first culling pass, as long as you can see it and it doesn't look too bad that's good enough.
- If you open up a set of similar images from the same time in ACR it will be a lot faster.
7) Images I rated 1* are deleted immediately, images I rated 2* are kept in case I need to do a head transplant or eye transplant (ie swap eyes/heads between pics). I rate duplicate images 2* and I rate quickly so I keep the dupes just in case. Customers aren't told I do this, one saw them once and they want copies of every image. I'm too nice to say no (believe it or not).
8) Once you've culled the images do color correction. This means I can make albums, prints, and a high res CD from the JPGs, I generate now without having to go back to the RAW image. Color temp presets can be helpful, but I usually adjust from the preset. I often use the highlight recovery and fill light sliders to reduce the extreme bright and dark patches of the image, as it's to much dynamic range for print (to my eye). Using too much of the highlight reduction tool turns white to grey, I find the shadow highlight tool with highlights set to 10/10 more effective, but I only do this for images going in an album.
- By experience i've found that I don't want the histogram to quite touch the right hand side, else my prints come back brighter than I prefer. Exception is when the main subject isn't the brightest part of the image. I've done a whole bunch of 6x4" test prints with my lab with different brightnesses and color temps, and have discovered that what I see on my calibrated screen isn't quite what I get back, so I recommend doing similar tests. Take 2-3 images, bracket the white balance by -2000, -1000, 1000, and 2000, and for brightness by -1.5, -1, -.5, .5, 1, 1.5, and anything else you want to try.
- I have presets defined for B&W images & sepia. To make a B&W preset for this open any RAW image, drag saturation to -100, then tweak the sliders in the calibration tab to make the image look bettter. Hit the right arrow thingy, hit save settings subset, and tick the boxes you want to tick. I have a half dozen different presets, including one that resets all settings except the main tab ones. For prints I take the color photo into photoshop and use the channel mixer. In CS4 use the B&W checkbox, and split toning, both highlights and shadows set to orange with saturation of 10-15%
- Image is straightened if it needs it (shortcut key is A)
- I do a bit of clone tool type work in the ACR tool too (shortcut key is B). I think it's called blemish removal or something.
- A few images are taken into photoshop and played with, the result saved as a PSD in the same directoy as the RAW images. The RAW I worked from is moved to a subdirectory called "RAW Processed" (or something like that). This is so when I batch the directory I don't get two copies of the same file.
9) New The order of using the sliders is important. Exposure comes first, in conjunction with blacks - they control the left and right hand edges of the histogram, and stretch the histogram as necessary. Highlight recovery comes in there somewhere too. The brightness comes next, it shifts the center of the histogram. Only then can color temperature be accurately set - of course you need a calibrated monitor. Once this is done you can start playing with contrast, and vibrance/saturation, or do your B&W/Sepia conversions.
10) I move the images the customer doesn't see to a "rejects" subfolder, which I keep until after the customers album has been made and has been delivered. I then renumber all the keepers for the customer so they're sequential. This is important, if you don't do it the customer wants to see the "missing" images.
11) Once all images are rated I filter for 3 star or better images, select them all, right click and choose "open in bridge". I then hit select all, set sRgb, hit save, choose the proofs folder, set quality to ten, and hit go. This can take 10-30 minutes depending on the number of images (down from 1-2 hours with my old PC).
12) I pour myself a rum, relax, and let the computer do its thing. Wait until this finished before going onto the next step.
13) Use image processor to batch the images to 600pixels on the longest side for web proofing. I put them into about ten folders to correspond to parts of the day (ceremony, portraits, reception, etc).
14) The generated jpg images are uploaded to my website, after creating the gallery in the shopping cart. 500 proofs are about 30MB. I use FileZilla since it can upload a number of files at the same time, which speeds things up hugely because of latency and how ftp works.
15) The images created in step 7 are used to create a DVD slide show of proofs, using Proshow Gold. Very simple show, bit of royalty free music, default transition, "\f" as the caption to put the filename onto each image.
16) Backups: until I have my images stored offsite on another hard drive I keep the cards with me at all times. I mirror my hard drive onto an external hard drive, which I keep in a secure location OUTSIDE of the building I work in. If it's in the same place a fire can destroy everything. I only delete the images from your cards once the offsite backups have been done. I've never lost an image, and I doubt I ever will.
17) The album is predesigned using PhotoJunction remix, the customer see this when they come to see their images (a slide show of about 100 images set to music, on my 40" LCD TV with a nice surround sound system). This is a sales tool.

Backups
As I said above I keep a mirror of my working hard drive offsite, and I don't delete any images until after the customers DVD and album have been delivered. Until then everything stays on my hard drives - I have 2.5TB internal right now, including 1TB dedicated to wedding images.

Once or twice a year I archive old customer images to another drive that's in a drawer at home. I delete the rejected images before I do this, as well as working files like the jpeg proofs, as these can be generated from the RAW again easily. I keep my psd album designs as a lot of work went into them, and I sometimes keep the PhotoJunction version of the album too. Of course I need an offsite backup of this drive, but rather than a simple mirror I convert the RAW files to DNG, really just hedging my bets. The PSD album layouts are also kept offsite.

I have Mozy back up my album designs nightly, as these change fairly regularly. Mozy also backs up my contracts, financial information, and other random bits and pieces. I don't let it back up images, they're way too big.

I don't bother with DVD backups any more, two copies on hard drives in different locations is good enough for me. I've not yet had a hard drive fail, but they tend to be replaced every 2-4 years when I run out of space - I don't like multiple drives for backups so I just migrate everything to the new bigger drive. The old drive stays in a drawer, just in case, they're not worth selling. Note that ALL hard drives fail, it's just a question of when. I've had a few CD/DVDs fail over the years.

If you need a color calibration system the Colorvision Spyder (http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=colorvision%20spyder&tag=headphonerevi-20&index=electronics&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) is meant to be decent. I don't know anything about the different versions.

I have lots of information available via FAQs i've written, there's a list here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5564024&postcount=1).

That's it I think. I'm happy to answer questions or hear comments and suggestions to improve my workflow. I'm happy with the workflow and can't see anything that needs improving. Snarky comments or flames will be ignored if i'm in a good mood, if i'm in a bad mood i'll call you names and insult your mother ;)

Hopefully this helps some of you out :) If you'd like to see some of my photos check out my website, Wellington Wedding Photography (http://www.wildphotography.co.nz/).

[xmacvicar]

Great! Thank for the contribution....I am very stoked to try the jalbum and eos template for my proofing technique....DOH, another thing to keep me up all night learning!

[PuR HART]

Great one man
Just in time for my next wedding.
a couple quickies, So on your proof site is that a site where you upload full high res jpegs and are they like smugmug were they print and ship or how does that work with uploading your proofs for your couple?
About how many pics do u let them choose from? because of server space?
thanks man sure I will have more

[PuR HART]

ok after looking at a few of your proof sites I see you upload apporx 350 pics give or take are these all high res?

[Ray Marrero]

I encountered a couple who do not have internet access. What then? I did mention they could use a friend's or the library, but felt silly. Do you ever print proofs?

[lil_miss]

Yikes that sounds like hard work.. lol :)

[tim]

Great one man
Just in time for my next wedding.
a couple quickies, So on your proof site is that a site where you upload full high res jpegs and are they like smugmug were they print and ship or how does that work with uploading your proofs for your couple?
About how many pics do u let them choose from? because of server space?
thanks man sure I will have more

ok after looking at a few of your proof sites I see you upload apporx 350 pics give or take are these all high res?

I upload my quick proofs, when an order is placed i'm emailed the image numbers, I fully process them from the RAW, print them at my lab, and courier them out.

I encountered a couple who do not have internet access. What then? I did mention they could use a friend's or the library, but felt silly. Do you ever print proofs?

My proofs also go into a proshow DVD, and I can burn the web pages to CD. I also offer printed proofs and proof books, which are really easy to do.

[Wazza]

Translation?

1) Drink bourbon
2) Drink bourbon
3) Fall asleep.

Jokes aside, that's a nice workflow you have there. I'm really considering buying CS3 when it's official? Something like Rawshooter for tweaking raws, but fully functional to output to fully edited jpegs ready for printing. I hate double handling my images, and PS7 is so painful at times.

[S-S]

what about lightroom - rather than bridge and jalbum, would lightroom 1 be a suitable replacement? it also generates proof galleries of images in either html or flash format. only prob i have had was using dreamweaver to upload the completed gallery which was about 24mb: it timed out and refused to upload any of it (quite unlike any of my other web work) - so i would have had to put the whole gallery on cd and hand it to the couple. wold filezilla bypass that issue or is it something i would need to discuss with my hosting company?

[tim]

EOS is an ordering system. Only looked at lightroom a little not really sure. Flash limits who can see your site so I don't use it. I'd talk to your host, filezilla is just an FTP client nothing too special.

[LeesaB]

Tim, thanks for sharing, and I understand this is how YOU do things..there are alot of good key things in your sharing...Thanks...

Some of the things you have done, I do by hand...and will be looking into it a bit more as time goes on. My workflow will not begin to flow for a month yet..so I have time to experiment and try things out. UGh..more to do.

thanks again

[Dachbean]

Hi Tim, Thanks for posting your workflow. It really helps people starting out, whent hey are trying to figure out their own workflow. I do have a couple questions for you.

1> what is the benefit of using DIM as opposed to just dragging and dropping the files into a folder? Is it due to the 3 hardrives you have?
2> Can you explain why it is essential to syncronize the time on your camera with your computer? Also are you doing this manually or are you hooking the camera up to the computer to do it? If so how do you do this?

Thanks again Tim for everything you post. you are a great guide.

[Mike Reynolds]

great help there thanks!

[tim]

Hi Tim, Thanks for posting your workflow. It really helps people starting out, whent hey are trying to figure out their own workflow. I do have a couple questions for you.

1> what is the benefit of using DIM as opposed to just dragging and dropping the files into a folder? Is it due to the 3 hardrives you have?
2> Can you explain why it is essential to syncronize the time on your camera with your computer? Also are you doing this manually or are you hooking the camera up to the computer to do it? If so how do you do this?

Thanks again Tim for everything you post. you are a great guide.

1. It's easier, you can just insert the card and it copies it automatically. Also verifies. No great gain.
2. If you shoot with two cameras then sort by time order then the images are out of order, which is really annoying in the proofs, and for if you're looking for an image later. You do it with EOS viewer.

[-MasterChief-]

excellent list Tim! i specially appreciate this one:

"Synchronise the times of each camera with your PC clock using EOS viewer BEFORE each wedding. This is ESSENTIAL."

i keep forgetting to check the internal time on my two bodies before a shoot. it stinks when the shots from both bodies when combined are not in chronological order!

[coreypolis]

what about lightroom - rather than bridge and jalbum, would lightroom 1 be a suitable replacement? it also generates proof galleries of images in either html or flash format. only prob i have had was using dreamweaver to upload the completed gallery which was about 24mb: it timed out and refused to upload any of it (quite unlike any of my other web work) - so i would have had to put the whole gallery on cd and hand it to the couple. wold filezilla bypass that issue or is it something i would need to discuss with my hosting company?
Lightroom is awesome. It can copy the images from your card (and back up to a 2nd location at the same time, apply a global preset, keywords, and apply your IPTC info to every image as it comes in. You can do renaming as the import as well.

Editing is awesome, notice Lloyd's thread about editng an entire wedding only in Lightroom.

The gallery module is pretty basic, but it works. I've been using it for non wedding clients thus far as just a fast way of viewing/proofing.

I used GoLive to upload it without any issues.

[Banbert]

Thanks for sharing tim.

How does DIM handle files in the same folder if the files are the same name ?

[tim]

How does DIM handle files in the same folder if the files are the same name ?

Renames the new file before saving.

[rfreschner]

Sounds like a great workflow Tim. Only one question - what brand of bourbon? ;)

[taygull]

If you don't mind share exactly how you sync the times. I have a 1D Mark IIn, 5D and a 20D. The 1D Mark IIn can only hook up via firewire, the others with USB.

[tim]

Sounds like a great workflow Tim. Only one question - what brand of bourbon? ;)

Wild Turkey, though at the moment i'm currently partial to Havana Club dark rum.

If you don't mind share exactly how you sync the times. I have a 1D Mark IIn, 5D and a 20D. The 1D Mark IIn can only hook up via firewire, the others with USB.

EOS Viewer, Camera settings menu. It does my 20Ds via USB. It's in the camera manual.

[S-S]

ok im gonna get cheeky now... tim, do u feel like posting a copy of your photo checklist for a standard wedding? u know, so you dont forget certain shots in the melee

ive written one up myself but it looks dangerously incomplete, based on my limited experience of less than 20 wedding shoots...

[tim]

ok im gonna get cheeky now... tim, do u feel like posting a copy of your photo checklist for a standard wedding? u know, so you dont forget certain shots in the melee

ive written one up myself but it looks dangerously incomplete, based on my limited experience of less than 20 wedding shoots...

I don't use a checklist.

My general "mental" set shot list, in the order I take them, is something like:
- Flowers/rings (if available)/shoes/details
- Bride with parents (before wedding)
- Groom with parents (before wedding)
- Group photos (customers choice)
- Wedding party together
- Photo of each member of wedding party, usually full length and head/shoulder portrait
- Full length of bride and groom, alone and together
- Rings on hands/held in one hand/on a white tablecloth
- Cake cutting
- First dance

The only one I have written down is ring shots, because I sometimes forget them.

[S-S]

thanks for that! helpful

[sapearl]

Tim, you've assembled some really fantastic resource material here that I'm sure many will find very helpful - a tip of the hat to you :p

Regarding the "essential shot list," like Tim I have a mental checklist of those pictures I feel are appropriate and necessary for the well balanced album but it's nothing I keep in writing. As a matter of fact it makes me nuts inside when the bride hands me her MUST HAVE list of group photos, which is often something she clipped from the latest bridal magazine... gotta' love those editors :evil: .

I have an easy and simple way of dealing with such lists though. I very pleasantly but firmly request that somebody will be assigned to me for completing the "list from hell" as I have no idea who many of these people are, and will need guidance to insure the shots are covered. I then hand THAT lucky person the list and a pencil, and have them call the necessary folks and then check the picture off the paper once it's been completed.

This method works extremely well for me. Either the list gets shortened quickly, or I end up getting some wonderful group photos with the aid of some very helpful friends and family members. Usually it is the latter circumstance. Anything is possible with a firm and confident smile as well as some substantial gear in your grip :lol:

[LeesaB]

Great Idea Stu. I too have seen that list from hell. It's unreal.

I am checking out lightroom right now and I really like it. It will probably be our next purchase after we get that new lens...

Tim, thanks again for sharing. Great info, and it really helps the noobs here (me included in that) with what we need to focus on, new programs and so on. Thanks..

[GertS]

i keep forgetting to check the internal time on my two bodies before a shoot. it stinks when the shots from both bodies when combined are not in chronological order!

I have mostly 2 cameras in use. At the end of the shooting I take with each used camera a picture at the same time (just pressing the trigger after it focused on something).
My self written tool (C# for Win) synchronizes on the last picture, no matter how wrong the time in each camera is. Only one time I had to sort 500 shots manually from 2 cameras.:mad:
At the moment it's written for my file / drive structure, but if there is interest, I can modify it to a configurable version.

[sapearl]

You're welcome Lisa ;) . I was on such a roll though I realized I left out some substantial "list tips." I've found these also to be money shots.... they sell.

Mom or B'Maid assisting with veil
Bride w/siblings
Bride w/her grandparents
Bride w/her ladies
Groom w/siblings
Groom w/his grandparents
Groom w/groomsmen
B&G with both sets of g-parents
B&G w/both families together - huge group shot
B&G w/her family
B&G w/his family
Processional - shots of each couple
Ring exhchange during ceremony
THE kiss
Misc. other ceremony shots - if permitted
Head table toasts
Head table kiss
Parents speaking
Head table shots
Some main table shots
"panoramic" table shots
The "ungartering"
Garter throw
Bouquet throw
B&G & Garter/bouquet catchers
"Regartering" shot
Misc dance candids
Neighbor groups
School chum groups

The above is not an all-inclusive list and is subject to constant revision and just plain winging it :lol: But you want to be easy to do business with, and a digital shot costs you nothing as compared to the old film shot, so I agree to all reasonable requests. - Stu

[kona77]

Absolutely fantastic post. How about a nice stuffed koala Tim.
Thanks for taking the time to provide such valuable info.

[markdon]

thanks for this Tim

[tim]

Absolutely fantastic post. How about a nice stuffed koala Tim.

You're thinking about the west island, also known as Australia ;)

[mizuno]

You're thinking about the west island, also known as Australia ;)

Yeah, over there they only have little flightless birds and sheep.

[tim]

Yeah, over there they only have little flightless birds and sheep.

The moa?

[kona77]

You're thinking about the west island, also known as Australia ;)
Interesting, no koalas there. I think I will have to go to New Zealand to see for myself.:lol:

[sblais]

Hi Tim,

I have a quick question for you. This workflow is very good for proofs. Mine is actually quite similar but slightly different (for one, I prefer a good single-malt scotch instead of bourbon ;)) - to everyone their own!

I was just wondering how do you include albums in this workflow. Do you let your clients chose their favorite images, then do the montages from their selection for the album pages? Or do you propose something right off the bat, along with your proofs and let your clients propose modifications?

[tim]

I was just wondering how do you include albums in this workflow. Do you let your clients chose their favorite images, then do the montages from their selection for the album pages? Or do you propose something right off the bat, along with your proofs and let your clients propose modifications?

This is my proof workflow, my album workflow is quite different, here it is really quickly. Customers can either choose their favorite 20 or so images for me to base the album on, or they can give me a list of images to try to get into an album. Either way I fully process all their selected images plus the images that I think need to be there, then go into PhotoJunction to design the album. I sometimes use templates, sometimes I don't. I don't always include every image they ask for in the initial design, sometimes their selections don't work together, but I work with the customer to get what they want.

Once the design is done I put it on the web for review, and change it if necessary - I usually go through 2-3 iterations. The customer is sent a printed proof to check and sign off on, they have to check all images are correct, names and dates are spelled correctly, and sign my album agreement to indicate the album is how they want it. The final touches are then done before the album is sent off to Queensberry.

[Grace]

That's a good question. I would like to know as well. I have always stated that it was the artist choice of final images for the album, but changes could be made. Not one person has ever complained but I am doing a wedding for a friend and she said she wants to choose all the images. That means i have to wait on her.

Thnks for all the info!~

[Grace]

you answered at the same time ;)

[sblais]

hehe, Tim's on the ball! (he's not busy stalking "happy members" ;)) Many thanks for the info Tim!

[tim]

So far my album portfolio isn't too extensive, so i'm not pushing that I have full control. I base my business around doing what I would reasonably expect from any photographer I would hire to shoot my own wedding, and I would want to have at least some say in the image selection and album design. However saying that i'd choose the photographer with the style of photography and albums that I want.

Going forward, once I have more album experience, i'll tweak how I word things with customers to suggest that they give me more control over the album, but i'll always keep in mind what I would expect myself.

Right now I have 3 or 4 albums with Queensberry for production, including one matted studio sample, with perhaps 4 more customer albums to do when I get time. Those albums aren't cheap, but they're fantastic albums. I'll do a digital studio sample once I have the time and material, perhaps in winter.

[sblais]

So far my album portfolio isn't too extensive, so i'm not pushing that I have full control. I base my business around doing what I would reasonably expect from any photographer I would hire to shoot my own wedding, and I would want to have at least some say in the image selection and album design. However saying that i'd choose the photographer with the style of photography and albums that I want.

Same here... Just starting with albums this year, so this information, even though it may not be honed yet is still greatly appreciated!

[Grace]

nice reminder tim-

[johnstoy]

It's very unselfish and gentlemanly of you to share the basic foundations of your livelyhood...

I'm retired... However:
I for one, will apply and follow some of your sequencing during my first wedding shoot, in September...

The good news is, that I know and photograph, most of the participants in the upcomming ceremony... many since their births, and we get along quite nicely...so there will be some of them, who will help, in the end result...

Presently, I put extra pressure on myself to perform in a extra timely fashion, when post processing (straight RAW) results from concert venue shootings... which I do routinely, every week... Thereafter... I review my performance and results... And the next time, I only repeat what works to improve my time and quality of results...

I've skipped the night cap in recent years... but love every minute of this wonderful, but serious hobby...

[tim]

It's very unselfish and gentlemanly of you to share the basic foundations of your livelyhood...

This is technician stuff, the foundations of my livelihood are the way I interact with people, the images I take, the post processing I do, and the albums I create. None of that's in here, but what is here is enough to give people a bit of a head start on the basic stuff :)

[johnstoy]

This is technician stuff, the foundations of my livelihood are the way I interact with people, the images I take, the post processing I do, and the albums I create. None of that's in here, but what is here is enough to give people a bit of a head start on the basic stuff :)

Well said Tim... Those other intricate parts of the job require individual creativity, personality and lots of "people" knowlege... improving in those "other" categories takes experience in working with clientele... A good listening ear helps... thanks for the heads up and helping me focus on the issues...

[Yella Fella]

whats this synching your camera time with PC time? how does that work? i have never looked at that part before :)

[sapearl]

I've never done it either and I use two cameras - perhaps I'm missing something that will come back and bite me later - but I normally sort everything from both cameras in a single Bridge directory with no problem.

I generally keep the shots pretty much in chronological order, but I will rearrange shots from both cameras, often out of chrono synch, so that overall things will "visually" make more sense.

whats this synching your camera time with PC time? how does that work? i have never looked at that part before :)

[GertS]

whats this synching your camera time with PC time? how does that work? i have never looked at that part before :)

This means that the camera gets the same time as the computer has. If you have only one camera then it's not of great importance, but it helps with two or even more cameras as they get the same time base and you can sort easily by time all files for getting the correct order. There are several applications who support the merging images from different cameras, but they require the same time base.

It can be done with the utility software included with the camera. Either by USB cable or by firewire cable (1D series only).

[tim]

Syncing camera times means if you sort by the date the images was taken they'll be in the right order. If one camera is 5 minutes ahead of the other and you swap between two cameras quickly (which I do) then things will be out of order. A few minutes out isn't too bad, but once I had a camera hours out and it was really frustrating my both myself and the client.

[Yella Fella]

Syncing camera times means if you sort by the date the images was taken they'll be in the right order. If one camera is 5 minutes ahead of the other and you swap between two cameras quickly (which I do) then things will be out of order. A few minutes out isn't too bad, but once I had a camera hours out and it was really frustrating my both myself and the client.

tim, do you do this manually or is there a software for it?

[tim]

tim, do you do this manually or is there a software for it?

EOS Viewer does it. It's something like settings/options, then there's a button that does it. Plug the camera into the computer before you start eos viewer, once you've done one camera close eos viewer, unplug the camera, then repeat for each camera.

Daylight savings finished her recently, my cameras today are an hour fast, but they're both consistently and precisely an hour fast :)

I think i'll bring the "bourbon" step of my workflow a bit closer to the start tonight... just back from a wedding, a 12-13 hour day.

[jaykkub]

Flash limits who can see your site so I don't use it.
This isn't necessarily true. Check this out...

http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/

I, too, originally though Flash is something that a large majority of people didn't have installed. It turns out this isn't so true. However, that doesn't mean there's not a bunch of sites out there with poorly designed Flash sites :)

[tim]

I have worked for companies that blocked flash as well as Javascript at the web proxy level. Also in corporate installs of flash they're sometimes quite out of date and flash content may not work. As time goes on and flash matures I expect the situation to improve, but for now i'm sticking with html/css. I have a little knowledge in this area, i've been a professional software developer for ten years.

[mizuno]

Flash all the way! :D

[tim]

Let's not turn this into a thread about flash, please.

[jaykkub]

I have a little knowledge in this area, i've been a professional software developer for ten years.

lol, i don't know why, but that statement makes me laugh.

Anyways, my whole point was that there's more and more people who already have flash installed on their machines, so it's difinitely not something everyone needs to shy away from. I can, however, understand where you're coming from. I checked out your site and the site design is well suited for html/css. I'm not much of a Flash-lover myself. I think it's nice, but some sites are way over done and the animations just take too long to load.

[sapearl]

Flash does continue to mature and more people can view that content.

However, from a search engine optimization standpoint, search engines simply can't read sites that are constructed as flash movies. When searching, engines need text in an html file. They can't read text embedded in a movie file.

[tlc]

lol, i don't know why, but that statement makes me laugh.

Anyways, my whole point was that there's more and more people who already have flash installed on their machines, so it's difinitely not something everyone needs to shy away from. I can, however, understand where you're coming from. I checked out your site and the site design is well suited for html/css. I'm not much of a Flash-lover myself. I think it's nice, but some sites are way over done and the animations just take too long to load.

look up every single big time pro wedding photographer and they have a flash site - as soon as i can afford it, i'm upgrading mine. i love them, they look so very professional.

[SuzyView]

Thanks, Tim. I cut and paste and put will definitely get some use of this as I shoot a wedding this Friday. The workflow for me isn't so rigorous. I told the bride I am only processing 20 shots to blow up. The rest I'm printing up. Not getting paid too much for this one, but will look at your process to make the next big one less stressful.

And thanks for keeping the thread going.

[Banbert]

Just regarding time synching cameras, I think this is very important and considering how little time it takes (we did all 4 of our cameras in about a minute and half) the benefits are great.

We shot last Saturday with 4 cameras between the two of us and then dumped all the photos onto my macbook with a directory for each card, we then ran an automation task we had created beforehand that renamed all the photos to CODE+DATE+TIME+ORIGINAL FILE NAME and moved them into just 2 directories, one for JPG and one for CR2's.

This meant that when we came to do our slideshow at the end of the day we just had to pull the images we wanted to use from the JPG directory and point our showit template at where we had pulled them to and they were already in the right order to tell the story of the day.

[mizuno]

Flash does continue to mature and more people can view that content.

However, from a search engine optimization standpoint, search engines simply can't read sites that are constructed as flash movies. When searching, engines need text in an html file. They can't read text embedded in a movie file.

You can have both.

Mine does. :)

[Mario.]

Tim, have you played with Lightroom at all? Just curious as to why you would not want to use it. :)

[tim]

You can have both.

Mine does. :)

I can't see it...

Tim, have you played with Lightroom at all? Just curious as to why you would not want to use it. :)

Tried a beta and wasn't impressed.

[mizuno]

I can't see it...

Clever, huh? ;)

[tim]

Only displayed if there's no flash plugin on the PC? Any way to directly access? I'm curious.

[mizuno]

Only displayed if there's no flash plugin on the PC? Any way to directly access? I'm curious.

Each liveBooks flash site is accompanied by an HTML “ghost site” which is a text based version of the flash site. To Google and other search engines, the “ghost site” looks like a simple HTML text site that is built the way search engines like sites to be built. It includes the site title, description, keywords, image comments, title, and each jpg image name.

[yarnos]

Hey Tim have you tried Iview ?

[tim]

Nope.

[yarnos]

Tim can you explain why you use DIM to copy all your images from your card to the HD when ADOBE BRIDGE has this function built in to import images ? What is the benefit of using DIM ?
cheers

[tim]

Tim can you explain why you use DIM to copy all your images from your card to the HD when ADOBE BRIDGE has this function built in to import images ? What is the benefit of using DIM ?

Because I don't know how to do it in bridge. I think that might be a new feature, and i've never bothered to try it. Also, I download using 3 card readers at the same time by running 3 copies of DIM, which Bridge may or may not be able to do.

[yarnos]

Because I don't know how to do it in bridge. I think that might be a new feature, and i've never bothered to try it.

You must be joking! :confused: you don't know how to import images !@#$% using bridge (are you been sarcastic !)

[tim]

You must be joking! :confused: you don't know how to import images !@#$% using bridge (are you been sarcastic !)

Why would you think i'd lie about not knowing something? I've never tried to copy images from cards to my PC using bridge, i'm sure if I needed to know i'd figure it out in a few minutes, but since I have a reliable system that can read from my 3 card readers at the same time I see no need to.

[csm328]

You must be joking! :confused: you don't know how to import images !@#$% using bridge (are you been sarcastic !)

How rude! One of the people that has done so much and taken so much time and you throw something like that at him? If you look at his workflow, which is extremely efficient, he's never had to use it. Maybe you could post YOUR workflow if it's so much better.

[tim]

Yarnos is probably just surprised there's something that I don't know!

[S-S]

You must be joking! :confused: you don't know how to import images !@#$% using bridge (are you been sarcastic !)

goodness, that's a little excessive isn't it? how does his knowing or not knowing something affect you?

[kkaimiv]

Tim,
Can you recommend a good site builder?

[tim]

I use a text editor, so no. "Blue Domain" usually gets good reviews.

[yarnos]

Csm328!
Iam a novice photography who is in the progress in trying to develop my skills and knowledge.I am reading and trying to develop a workflow and this thread has offered so much knowledge I didn't mean to offend or come across rude! I was astonished that why somebody like Tim who has offered me so much knowledge and guidance in photography wasn't using Bridge to copy images from cards to HD?
SOOORRYYY to all those WHO have taken offense I didn't mean to come across rude or offensive to such an excellent mentor(TIM).

[tim]

I was astonished that why somebody like Tim who has offered me so much knowledge and guidance in photography wasn't using Bridge to copy images from cards to HD?
SOOORRYYY to all those WHO have taken offense I didn't mean to come across rude or offensive to such an excellent mentor(TIM).

I didn't take offense, looks like other people did for me though! The reason I don't use bridge to do it is I have a better option that works for me, plus while i might've vaguely known bridge can do that I don't really care given my existing solution.

[S-S]

lol
i personally wouldn't use bridge to import my photos if you paid me
i don't like the file browser, its a pain in the a$$ and i woudn't even install it at all if adobe hadn't rudely terminated windows system thumbnail support for PSD files a few versions ago
i use camera window, lightroom and ps for everything photo, and that's it

shoot me down if you dare LOL :lol:

[tim]

shoot me down if you dare LOL :lol:

Why bother? Doesn't matter what you wanna do so long as it works for you.

[S-S]

Why bother? Doesn't matter what you wanna do so long as it works for you.

yeah i wasnt meaning you lol
i know youve turned over a new leaf ;)

[tim]

I've updated my workflow to increase my throughput - first post has been edited. The main difference is I color correct before proofs are done, so it only has to be done once, rather than doing bits here and there. I've also refined a few more things.

[spcalan]

I am having trouble with "tweaking" my workflow, between DPP and CS2.

1. take photos
2. DPP - WB and exposure
3. DPP - batch process to JPEG ( is this ok or should it be TIFF or 16JPEG?)

4. CS2 - CROP... now i have the problem.. how does everyone crop? do you crop without a size selected ( 4x6, 8x10 ).. or do you crop to make the perfect "cropped" photo and then re-size? I have encountered that I have to re-crop the same photo for different sizes. So usually cropping is last.

5. CS2 - Any color changes
6. CS2 - Any sharpness.. does anyone use USM? Any hints?
7. CS2 - Print 100 4x6 for proof album

Any hints/ ideas?

[ErikM]

Tim I'm not sure how I missed this amazing post!

Thanks for taking the time and writing out your workflow... really opened up my eyes and now I can see that I can get much more work done using automated techniques like yourself!

[Robert16]

Very helpful. Thanks for sharing.

[tim]

I am having trouble with "tweaking" my workflow, between DPP and CS2.

1. take photos
2. DPP - WB and exposure
3. DPP - batch process to JPEG ( is this ok or should it be TIFF or 16JPEG?)

4. CS2 - CROP... now i have the problem.. how does everyone crop? do you crop without a size selected ( 4x6, 8x10 ).. or do you crop to make the perfect "cropped" photo and then re-size? I have encountered that I have to re-crop the same photo for different sizes. So usually cropping is last.

5. CS2 - Any color changes
6. CS2 - Any sharpness.. does anyone use USM? Any hints?
7. CS2 - Print 100 4x6 for proof album

Any hints/ ideas?

No idea about DPP sorry. Please start a new thread to ask the question rather than using this one.

[kiwinvan]

Hey Tim,

Have you found any differences in colour temp in bridge and in photoshop? When I see my thumbnails in bridge they look greener than when opened in photoshop. I don't see why they would, but they do. This often means I have to reduce green after batch processing.

Also, you said that your adjustments and presets in bridge are suitable to make printable jpegs from. Any advice on what to avoid?

How is CS3 different from CS2 and is it worth an upgrade IYO?

Thanks,

[tim]

Color temp seems consistent bridge/photoshop. Check the options to see if color management's enabled in bridge. Not sure if it can be disabled.

"Also, you said that your adjustments and presets in bridge are suitable to make printable jpegs from. Any advice on what to avoid?" - not sure what you mean.

CS3 is worthwhile, the fill light and highlight recovery alone are worthwhile, not to mention adjustment layers and general tweaks.

[spcalan]

Ok, I am thinking about buying the EOS template, so I can control price of prints, as well as using Jalbum to create "proof album online".

Now is this the only proofs you offer the customer? No albums? or only a online viewing?
I am trying to streamline my business process.

Thanks,.

[tim]

I offer albums, and 90% of my customers choose packages with albums in them. I also offer proof books, and printed proofs, but only about 10% choose to purchase them, even though they're priced not far above cost. I offer pretty much everything a customer could want.

If I were buying now i'd probably get Photography Shopping Cart (http://www.picturespro.com/pages/photography_shopping_cart/) instead. I might upgrade some time, it has a few useful features like packages of prints instead of individual prints.

[Shane McGeown]

Hi tim, your link to 'photography shopping cart' aint working.

[spcalan]

My 1st package:

4x6 album - 100 4x6's
12-8x10 and 8x10 album

2nd package
4x6 album - 100 4x6's
12-8x10 and 8x10 album

3rd package
4x6 album - 100 4x6's
24-8x10 and 8x10 album

I have heard some people only offer 4x6 prints ( with no album ) is that very professional? Some offer online viewing of proofs?>? If I were the customer, I would want some sort of proof album.

[tim]

Hi tim, your link to 'photography shopping cart' aint working.

Try now.

[spcalan]

Does anyone use EOS Album?
Is it worth the money?
Any suggestions?

[spcalan]

templant i mean.

[Shane McGeown]

Questions? Call Tim 800.905.8743

Take it you own this site! ;)

Good for you Tim, I'll check it out.

[tim]

Does anyone use EOS Album?
Is it worth the money?
Any suggestions?

I do, it works well but isn't too easy to configure for non-computer people. Please start a thread on it rather than putting it in here, people won't see it or reply here.

Questions? Call Tim 800.905.8743

Take it you own this site! ;)

Good for you Tim, I'll check it out.

Nope, I don't own this site or any other photography related sites except my professional photography business website.

[sam0329]

I offer albums, and 90% of my customers choose packages with albums in them. I also offer proof books, and printed proofs, but only about 10% choose to purchase them, even though they're priced not far above cost. I offer pretty much everything a customer could want.

If I were buying now i'd probably get Photography Shopping Cart (http://www.picturespro.com/pages/photography_shopping_cart/) instead. I might upgrade some time, it has a few useful features like packages of prints instead of individual prints.

I am using it now and works very good so far. Easy to setup and have a log feature that helps me keep track of everything.

[spcalan]

Explain difference between EOS template and PSC? big price difference.

[tim]

Explain difference between EOS template and PSC? big price difference.

What happened to your last slave? Read their websites. PSC has more features and is easier to configure.

[wilky95]

He ,he,he Big Foot has got nothing compared to Tim..................... Splattttt:mad:

Martin




What happened to your last slave? Read their websites. PSC has more features and is easier to configure.

[crobs808]

I never focus manually

just curious, why not? i have found manual focusing essential for artistic/journalistic style photos, like shooting through a crowd at a person, when none of the AF sensors will lock onto that one little spot.

you said "never", and im just curious if you REALLY never manual focus? i find about 10% of the time, especially at weddings, i have to use MF. i love it because of AF-confirm, when you are holding the button down it will tell you if the little spot you want is in focus with the beep/red square flash.

::: Connor

[tim]

I sometimes use manual focus for macro shots, but for shots of people I use AF 100% of the time. I always use the center focus point, as it's the most sensitive, and I find an area of contrast on the focal plane I want for it to lock onto (eg an eye, a seam in clothes, etc).

[crobs808]

thats what i do most of the time for people, i focus with center point, then recompose after i lock in the focus, but i've found the best photos usually come from having about 10milliseconds to get it, like a kid that smiles for less than a second, then cries, and i want to get that perfect smile, so i dont have time to let the camera AF (takes like 1/3 a second which is too long)

i have placed bumps on the barrell of my lens (small removable stickies, like miniature plastic googley eyes, that i can feel where 10ft is in focus, 20ft, 30ft, etc...so i can get to it quick, then snap before the moment is over.

if AF were faster i would always use it, but for now wer'e just stuck with the regular USM

hopefully Canon will have a faster USM in some new lenses...i find i can get to a focal point manually faster than USM can many times in dark rooms.

::: connor

[amonline]

I sometimes use manual focus for macro shots, but for shots of people I use AF 100% of the time. I always use the center focus point, as it's the most sensitive, and I find an area of contrast on the focal plane I want for it to lock onto (eg an eye, a seam in clothes, etc).
I shoot the exact same way. Never MF for anything other than macro or closeup artistic. I guess it's because I've learned how to control the AF well. I thought it was normal. I do, however, manually adjust the AF sometimes if I think it's a tad off. I'm usually right. I think of it as a little helper really.

[tim]

I've always used AF, i'm just not good at MF and I find AF works fast enough for me. I tend to prefocus, you can usually tell when something's about to happen. Each to their own, use whatever works best for you! :)

[amonline]

Yea, I prefocus as well. Maybe we both just don't trust our eyes - I know I don't. :lol:

[S-S]

I sometimes use manual focus for macro shots, but for shots of people I use AF 100% of the time. I always use the center focus point, as it's the most sensitive, and I find an area of contrast on the focal plane I want for it to lock onto (eg an eye, a seam in clothes, etc).

thats what i do too, i've turned off all the other focus points, im focus-&-recompose shooter

i have placed bumps on the barrell of my lens (small removable stickies, like miniature plastic googley eyes, that i can feel where 10ft is in focus, 20ft, 30ft, etc...so i can get to it quick, then snap before the moment is over.

thats a very cool idea *stores away for future reference*

Yea, I prefocus as well. Maybe we both just don't trust our eyes - I know I don't.

my eyes do this odd thing where i'm looking at a slightly OOF image in the viewfinder, then suddenly my eyes somehow focus it FOR me and it looks sharp & fine - which is of no use whatsoever when trying to establish whether the CAMERA is focused or not :confused: (no they don't need testing, i have better than 20-20 vision)

[gwc1023]

6.5) New Once you've culled the images do color and brightness correction. This means I can make albums, prints, and a high res CD from the JPGs, I generate now without having to go back to the RAW image. I find presets to be the best way to do color correction rather than doing it by eye, even on a calibrated monitor. Sometimes I tweak the color temp a bit. I almost always use the highlight recovery and fill light sliders to reduce the extreme bright and dark patches of the image, as it's to much dynamic range for print (to my eye).

I'm a little confused - how are you adjusting the highlight and fill light sliders before you've converted to jpg? I thought these settings were only in PS itself, not ACR...??

[S-S]

lightroom has these sliders, not sure about acr - might also depend on your version

[tim]

I'm a little confused - how are you adjusting the highlight and fill light sliders before you've converted to jpg? I thought these settings were only in PS itself, not ACR...??

ACR in CS3 has those sliders, PS can do a similar thing but only on one image at a time, not on batches. I do 99% or more of my processing in ACR, I find very few images need to be taken into Photoshop.

lightroom has these sliders, not sure about acr - might also depend on your version

ACR is the RAW converter for Bridge, Photoshop, and Lightroom.

[tim]

I've updated this to reflect my latest workflow. Nothing major, just a few efficiencies, new features within ACR, and details of how I do my adjustments (step 6.6 because I can't be bothered renumbering everything).

[S-S]

thanks for sharing, o light bringer ;)

[Bobster]

interesting that you set white balance after correcting everything else m8, first thing i do is set white balance before adjusting anything else. soon as you correct white balance everything jumps..

Before
http://www.rjwhetton.co.uk/touchup/Whitebalance1.jpg
After
http://www.rjwhetton.co.uk/touchup/Whitebalance2.jpg

you go to all the bother of adjusting the exposure, recovery slider etc, then when you correct the white balance, you're going to have to go back and tweak sliders..

[tim]

You're right Bob, temp affects exposure and exposure affects temp. You have to adjust one, then the other, then the first one again. It probably doesn't make much difference what order you do it in, but since I just want the temp close enough for my first round of processing that suits me.

[ClementeB]

Hey Tim, I truly appreciate your workflow posting, very helpful. I was just wondering has anything changed in your flow now that lightroom 2 is out. It's truly a killer program and will do so much for you in one spot.

Clemente

[tim]

Nope, I don't really like the Lightroom interface. The workflow would be almost exactly the same thing as I do in Bridge. I have CS4 now, CS4 Bridge is fantastic, it seems fast and stable. Bridge does most of the things Lightroom does, it just doesn't do catalogs, which I don't much like.

Let's not turn this into LR vs Bridge though. Both work.

[SamClarkPhotography]

Subscribing to this Great Thread. I know I could use the 'thread tools', but this great thread needs a little bump!

[tim]

Updated with my latest software and procedures.

[j2photography]

Just read this and I definitely picked out some things that can benefit me!

One question, how do you go about noise reduction? I doubt you shoot all your weddings at <iso800, so how do you go about NR?

THANKS! AND TERRIFIC WRITEUP!

[tim]

In all my time photographing weddings, since the 10D, i've never had a customer mention noise. I own Noise Ninja Pro, but I don't even have it installed. Noise doesn't bother me, even at ISO3200 on a 40D, so long as you expose properly. I've found the 40D histogram causes me to overexpose slightly, so I don't tend to underexpose any more. I use the default ACR noise reduction. The only time I really use high ISO is maybe for prep if it's a dark room, or if we're taking photos outside at night and I want to suck in some ambient light. I light the reception with strobes so i'm shooting at ISO400-800 usually, so noise isn't an issue. ISO800's clean so long as it's exposed well.

Short answer: I don't care about noise.

[j2photography]

Wow. That works for me :)

Also, where's the batch rename in Bridge? I can't seem to find it. And is there a reason you prefer ACR? I use Lightroom and I find it easier to use than ACR. I don't quite know how to use it too well, just the simple stuff, but it's a lot easier because it has the picture slide where I can choose pictures from.

[tim]

Tools -> Batch Rename in CS4 Bridge.

LR uses ACR, it just gives it a different user interface. Bridge is simpler IMHO, and i've been using it for years, it does what I want and Lightroom doesn't. Simple as that. Use whatever tool you like best.

[j2photography]

Nice.

Thank you for your help!

[tim]

CS2 does it, I don't have it installed any more but i'm sure it's there. I've always renamed using Bridge.

[ejicon]

It's always nice to see some'one else's workflow. Nicely done and nicely said.

[Phil Light]

Tim, in step 6 you mentioned this about rating your images:

My system is 1=unusable for a technical reason, 2=duplicate image or not worth showing, 3=good image, 4=image that will probably go into an album, 5=image that will go into my portfolio.

I completely agree with you about rating images. I love that feature. I would like to submit one suggestion that I use in my workflow which helps speed up the rating process - at least for me.

I find that when all is said and done, most of my images are 3s, and hopefully at least a few 4s and 5s. (BTW - I don't do weddings, I do sports photography but the same workflow principles apply - assigning a value to hundreds of images quickly.) The easiest ones to rate are the 1s and 2s because usually there is something obviously wrong with them. If an image is a 1 or a 2 I don't want to waste time evaluating it more than one time as I scan through them, so the first thing I do is select all of the images and hit Ctrl+3 to rate all of them as a 3. Then I set Bridge to display only 3s and above. Of course they all remain visible. Now on my first pass through the list I can assign a rating of 1 or 2 to the images I don't plan to use and they disappear from view immediately so I'm left with only the images I do plan to use. Obviously the 1s and 2s can be brought back with a single mouse click if necessary, or they can be re-rated if I change my mind.

Anyway, like I said, just a small suggestion that helps speed up my workflow.

[tim]

Thanks for the suggestion, I don't think it'd work for me, for two reasons:
- We can take up to 1500 images, and our target is 300-500 max, so most images are 2's.
- When you filter for 3* and mark something as 2* the images jump around as they reorder, which I don't like.

btw there's a preference that lets you just hit the number, not control plus the number.

[S-S]

Tim, in step 6 you mentioned this about rating your images:



I completely agree with you about rating images. I love that feature. I would like to submit one suggestion that I use in my workflow which helps speed up the rating process - at least for me.

I find that when all is said and done, most of my images are 3s, and hopefully at least a few 4s and 5s. (BTW - I don't do weddings, I do sports photography but the same workflow principles apply - assigning a value to hundreds of images quickly.) The easiest ones to rate are the 1s and 2s because usually there is something obviously wrong with them. If an image is a 1 or a 2 I don't want to waste time evaluating it more than one time as I scan through them, so the first thing I do is select all of the images and hit Ctrl+3 to rate all of them as a 3. Then I set Bridge to display only 3s and above. Of course they all remain visible. Now on my first pass through the list I can assign a rating of 1 or 2 to the images I don't plan to use and they disappear from view immediately so I'm left with only the images I do plan to use. Obviously the 1s and 2s can be brought back with a single mouse click if necessary, or they can be re-rated if I change my mind.

Anyway, like I said, just a small suggestion that helps speed up my workflow.

that sounds like a great tip - thanks for sharing it!

[Stephan Rossouw]

Hi guys.

Dunno if this fit in this topic, but what is some of the best photography applications for the web that I can use to host my photos online. I've been playing with a few but not completely happy.

I am looking for a proffesional look but also in the same time very user friendly.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

Thank you
Stephan

[tim]

This thread isn't an appropriate place to ask generation questions, start yourself a thread, or better yet do a search as the question has been asked and answered a dozen times.

[tim]

Updated to reflect my current workflow. I now do full color correction before creating albums and proofs, rather than doing a "good enough" run to start with then doing final correction later. This was takes a little more time up front, but less overall.

[mariusz]

good info, thanks!