Greedy Organization?

[bcap]

I have applied and been granted "official photographer" for a really big event here in my area - the Province-wide Basketball Championship's. I had to apply to the Provincial Basketball organization.

In my opinion, they are getting very greedy though. There is obviously nothing I can do about it, as I do not want to lose the event, I am just venting.

They want 15% of GROSS sales AND a CD of some images for promotional purposes.

I don't think I'd be getting any recognition for these images either.

What do you guys suggest? Shoudl I ask for mention whenever the photos are used? Shoudl I provide full-res images? 72dp images?

[Davy-Kelly]

If this is your first "big job" I'd go along with it. It might get your name spread around a bit (although not so much if they wont give you recognition).

Davy

[Croasdail]

Up to 20%, but more often 10% is common... so no, they don't sound totally out of line here. If

[Davy-Kelly]

Up to 20%, but more often 10% is common... so no, they don't sound totally out of line here. If

If...

[Hawg Hanner]

It's all part of negotiating. If you think 15% is too high (along with the rest of the conditions) tell them so. Have you given any indication that you'll accept it? If so, you're probably already dead in the water. If however you haven't had much of a conversation with them since they suggested that amount, you still have a dog in this fight. Also, are you the first person to approach them to do this? Did someone before accept 15%?

If you haven't had any conversations with them about it yet, I would call the up or meet with them and thell them a cut of the action is highly irregular. Often it is either a flat fee, but if they insist on 15% you are either going to have to walk away (remind them no one can do it better and why) or tell them they will have to sweeten the pot a little. Here's how they could make it worth your while:

#1. You have right of first refusal to photograph all future events using the same agreement.
#2. An extreme limit to the number of images they are licensed to have and all other licenses cost X amount of dollars.
#3. Byline and credit on each image used.
#4. Free advertisement in their program or other means (remind them that since they are getting a cut, it is only in their best interest).
#5. Right to photograph all other non-championship provincial events with no cut.

I'm sure you will know of a few other ways they could sweeten the pot. If you think the cut is too high, however, you need to take a stand and walk away. I've seen too many industries where people have 'whored' themselves. Taking a stand is probably in your best interest. If some other organization hears about your 15% cut, they'll wonder why they aren't getting a cut of the action, too.

[bcap]

No, this is not my first event. My business does events all over the place. We typically give 10% to the hosting organization.

The 15% isn't what got my wheels turning, it's the CD of images. I will obviously provide my best photos to show that they are not hiring no amateur, but at the same time, buying those images elsewhere wouldn't be cheap ...

Also, I am no where nearly the 1st photographer they've dealt with. This is the terms they have said I must agree to because this is what they do in the past.

I think my best bet is to ask them for recognition for the photos that's it ... maybe a link on their site.

[DocFrankenstein]

How much sales are you going to be making?

Who's your client?

[Croasdail]

If...

brain freeze.... sorry

it was something about limited use for internal promotional purposes only.... but what ever. As long as they aren't selling them themselves, I have seen this before. Haven't done it myself because I don't do this kind of stuff often - but have seen it.

[Davy-Kelly]

brain freeze.... sorry

it was something about limited use for internal promotional purposes only.... but what ever. As long as they aren't selling them themselves, I have seen this before. Haven't done it myself because I don't do this kind of stuff often - but have seen it.

lol, fair enough

[bcap]

It's a provincial basketball organization. My sales will hopefully be anywhere between $1.5-3 thousand for the 2 days of the tournament.

[DocFrankenstein]

It's a provincial basketball organization. My sales will hopefully be anywhere between $1.5-3 thousand for the 2 days of the tournament.
Who's gonna buy? I don't get it.

[Croasdail]

You see mommy and daddy bring junior to a basketball tournament.... and the photographer takes these wonderful images that he/she then sales to said mommy and or daddy. Because their kid is just the cutest and most athletic out there, they buy copious images of little darling. It's really not all that new... maybe a little to pedestrian for the cultured of Toronto.... but in many parts some make really good money doing this. I don't do it because I don't like having to deal with precious' mommy.

[Davy-Kelly]

You see mommy and daddy bring junior to a basketball tournament.... and the photographer takes these wonderful images that he/she then sales to said mommy and or daddy. Because their kid is just the cutest and most athletic out there, they buy copious images of little darling. It's really not all that new... maybe a little to pedestrian for the cultured of Toronto.... but in many parts some make really good money doing this. I don't do it because I don't like having to deal with precious' mommy.

Junior is playing in the tournament right?

[Croasdail]

oh yeah..right.. that would help wouldn't it.

[DocFrankenstein]

You see mommy and daddy bring junior to a basketball tournament.... and the photographer takes these wonderful images that he/she then sales to said mommy and or daddy. Because their kid is just the cutest and most athletic out there, they buy copious images of little darling. It's really not all that new... maybe a little to pedestrian for the cultured of Toronto.... but in many parts some make really good money doing this. I don't do it because I don't like having to deal with precious' mommy.
Oooh...

Ok. Gotcha. For some reason it associated with NBA and somehow it just didn't click how MJ's mommy is going to buy his photos.

My bad

[Croasdail]

It's ok... it's been a long day... I am a bit punchie tonight.

[strmrdr]

is their room in your pricing for a 5% increase for that event?
If anyone questions it just say that a portion off the top goes to the event.

[bcap]

No you see usually I do much smaller events for the one basketball organization (local organization), this event is for the provincial organization ...

[ssim]

If you haven't had any conversations with them about it yet, I would call the up or meet with them and thell them a cut of the action is highly irregular.

Dealing with minor sports groups this is the norm, the percentage may vary but they all want some kickback. I apply a schedule to the organization as to an escalating percentage as the sales get higher. I have done it on units (prints and/or memory mates) sold and on gross sales. It would typically look something like
<500 - no discount
501- 1000 8%
1001 - 1500 10 %
1501 - 2000 12%
2001 - 3000 15%
These are just examples and vary from organization to organization. This gives them some ownership in the process. If they want to earn more money then they have to push the sales as well.

It kind of sounds like this is all a done deal and I can appreciate the venting but I really wouldn't worry too much just yet as you don't seem to have all the details on the promotional images. I would barter for a complimentary advertisement (min 1/4 page) in any programs that they are having printed for the championship. My experience is that organizations that do web related promotions after the fact don't give credit on the web page(s). In those instances when they do, it is usually so small or buried inside a credit page somewhere else on the site, its usefulness is slim to none. One question that only you can answer is do you need the promotion from these people. You really have to position this as a win-win for both parties. They want your images for free and you want some exposure. There does have to be some limit as to the number of images you supply as well.

I would certainly have a letter of understanding with them as to the vehicles that they will be using these images in. I would make a further note in this that unauthorized use of the images outside of the agreed usages will be charged at a rate you decide. This is again where I would specify a fee schedule for this. Too many people think that once they have the CD it is open season for their use.

I don't put alot of weight on value of getting photo credits for images that you have supplied them for free. Say it is in a magazine and you do have credit most people will not remember. If you saw a shot of someone famous doing something significant, can you quote the photographers name a day, a week, a month later. You can remember the image but not the dude that shot it. This is where I try to pick my battles carefully. On things that look significant I weigh them very carefully to make sure it is the right issue within the overall contract to make battle on.

I've taken a somewhat new approach to these minor sporting events. Previously I marketed directly to the parents and in some cases the results were dismal. This year I have had the association become more involved and have them make contact with the parents. I did a figure skating series of shows and static shots of the skaters in their various outfits. Last year it was up to me to get the order from the parents and while not totally disappointing it could have been better. This year I offered them a slightly higher cut by 2% and threw in some large prints that they could hang in the arena if they so desired. For this they had to contact the parents, collect the money and put the order in on a form that I gave them. I just finished the order last week and it came in slightly more than 4 times what it was last year. Same number of skaters within a few. I did the order in one print job, billed the association and they paid me. If any of the parents defaulted on their orders that was their problem, not mine.

There are lots of things that you can do to incentify these groups to make sure that you win along with them. As I said, as long as you can make it look like a win win situation it will be.

They all want these freebies and the high res images to use for free. Put some limits on it and move on is my advice. I don't think there is enough value in the images to make this a point of contention as long as you put the right safe guards in the contract to limit the use of them.

[donlavange]

You see mommy and daddy bring junior to a basketball tournament.... and the photographer takes these wonderful images that he/she then sales to said mommy and or daddy. Because their kid is just the cutest and most athletic out there, they buy copious images of little darling. It's really not all that new... maybe a little to pedestrian for the cultured of Toronto.... but in many parts some make really good money doing this. I don't do it because I don't like having to deal with precious' mommy.

The better the kid looks , the larger and more elegant the mat and frame!

[sfaust]

They want your images for free and you want some exposure. There does have to be some limit as to the number of images you supply as well.

I would certainly have a letter of understanding with them as to the vehicles that they will be using these images in. I would make a further note in this that unauthorized use of the images outside of the agreed usages will be charged at a rate you decide. This is again where I would specify a fee schedule for this. Too many people think that once they have the CD it is open season for their use.

I am not familiar with the workings of event photography, but I am well versed in the value of images used for promotion, advertising, and so on. Definitely work out the issue regarding their use of your images. There is a lot of value there, and you should use that as a negotiating chip. Ie, if they want to use one of the images in a regional magazine to promote the event or organization, thats easily $100-700+ depending on size, placement, and so on. Large banners around the event, another few hundred. Flyers, gate posters, banners, more dollars. Web sites, add a bit more. And so on.

I would come up with a value you are willing to let go, and limit their use of the images to specific uses. I wouldn't give them carte blanche to the images. If you don't limit them, they could do just about anything. Sell them outright to a third party, submit them to a stock agency, and so on. Limit their use to very specific instances. Ie, if they say they are only going to use them on their web site, make sure there is language in the contract that states that. I would also send them a secondary licensing agreement with the same usage limited, and stating that all other rights are reserved. Then if they use it for something else, you have the legal weight of a valid copyright infringement as leverage to help you resolve it. And yes, for $45, register ALL the images from the event.

Also, make sure they know they are responsible for obtaining releases from anyone in the images that will be used for marketing, promotion, advertising, or any other commercial use. And you should be protected if they don't, and are sued by a player for using their images for commercial use without permission.