I got a legality issue problem

[sumozebra]

basically it comes down to this. I agree'd to help a "friend" do the production photos for his production, *which was a music video for a band*. I agree'd to do the photoshoot for free, and i also agree'd to not distribute the photos whatsoever, and only he has a copy of the photos.

basically what he wrote and i agree'd to was:
"The pictures are ours and ours only to have and release and they are not to be shown or used in any way without my complete consent. The dancer, Galit, does not want her pictures to be used for anything ( i.e. to look like
modeling/portrait photos someone shot) and the band's new label would
be upset if their images were used for anything they didn't agree to,
making the confidentiality of these pictures important."


Later on, the 3rd party dancer for the MV requested to have a copy of the photos for her PORTFOLIO. *note up to now i did not charge a penny*. I agree'd to give her a copy of the full size photos for her portfolio at 75$ for all those that included her *not of the band, since that was what was agree'd upon* *the producer asked me to give a copy of the photos to the dancer*

Then, the producer had the guts to send me a nasty email about me going behind his back to make money off HIS production.

*further more, now he asks that i return the money for the photos that i sold to the dancer* At this point in time, i'm kinda switching from pro photography back to financial business, so rep doesn't mean as much to me right now, plus i might be moving to another country.

Do you think it was wrong that I charged 75$ for the negatives of the photos i took, *was a 4 hour job or so*? I'm sure they made money off the production since it was for a band's music video which will be marketted.

Also, there were no written contracts or agreements whatsoever, was just purely verbal, though i hold my verbal agreements.. in any case, did i seriously do anything wrong here??? from a photographer's standpoint?

[Jon]

If you agreed up front that the photos were the producer's/band's only, not to be released without their consent, then you should ethically have referred the dancer to the producer when she asked for prints. Whether such an agreement without their having provided any consideration (did you receive anything at all from them for the shoot; permission to use the photos in your own portfolio, supplies, equipment, it doesn't need to be money, but anything tangible) is legal or not is another question.

[sumozebra]

If you agreed up front that the photos were the producer's/band's only, not to be released without their consent, then you should ethically have referred the dancer to the producer when she asked for prints. Whether such an agreement without their having provided any consideration (did you receive anything at all from them for the shoot; permission to use the photos in your own portfolio, supplies, equipment, it doesn't need to be money, but anything tangible) is legal or not is another question.


well jon, i believe i got 2 cups of coffee for the whole ordeal. As for conscent, it was requested by the producer. I agree'd that the photos would not be used for my portfolio, *so basically the photos are useless to me* and from the quote that i quoted from the email, the photos "The pictures are ours and ours only to have and release". From my understanding of that statement, meaning they have a copy of the photos, and that they have the rights given by me to release the photos.

The emails would be the only form of "written" contract, though nothing was signed or such. But in anycase, I gave them full permission to use the photos for their means, but when the 3rd party member *the dancer* requested the use for HER portfolio, and not for the band's release.

As stated, i recieved nothing. Equipment was all mine *minus the lighting they used for lighting the music video* I had to pay for my gas, tunnel fee, and equipment insurance.

[Jon]

IANAL, but "ours and ours only to have and release" sounds like they are the only people with rights to distribute the photos. If that stands, clearly you were wrong to give prints to the dancer. However if there was no consideration (and they'd have to have been damn good cups of coffee to qualify) there was no contract and that wouldn't be binding.

If "*the producer asked me to give a copy of the photos to the dancer*", well, you did. And I think your stance may well be that the charge wasn't for the photos per se but for the expense of producing the prints. Unless he wants to reimburse you for time and materials.

[sumozebra]

Good point. Well they wern't in print format, they were on a DVD with digital files, if that makes a difference. In terms of wrong to give copies, i did so at the request of the producer.. which i guess is right, in the sense that it was for the processing time required, and expenses involved in delivering the dvd to her and such... but i don't know

i just realised after this experience, that there's no more such things as "favors" and everything must be in black/white =( thanks for your help jon

[Julio]

Why did you even agree to those terms--you would get ABSOLUTELY nothing, not even the use of the photos for your portfolio???

[primoz]

If you agreed that photos are "theirs and theirs only" then yes you did wrong. And it's useless to cry now that you didn't get anything from it, but they made some money with that production. You agreed to shoot for free, you agreed that photos are theirs only so live with it. And next time, think before you shoot for free.
Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's life.

[basroil]

this is a clear example of what not to do, both in signing that contract and selling something that isn't yours. basically, either never agree to those terms, or make enough money off of it to not need to worry about ever seeing those photos again. making a contract then breeching it is bad business practice in any field, not just photography.

[sumozebra]

basroil, no contracts were ever made / signed, and photos were given to the 3rd party at the request of the producer

[Hurricane_777]

However if there was no consideration (and they'd have to have been damn good cups of coffee to qualify) there was no contract and that wouldn't be binding.


Bingo. An agreement without consideration is not a contract. I don't think you have a legal issue. :)

[R_Metzel]

Some friend you have there! I know nothing of the legality, so I will stay out of that. I am curious as to why you agreed to those terms though. Spending your own money for travel, food, and what ever else it set you back, and doing it all for free, then handing everything over to them? The only time I would give up rights to 1 photo would be if I was compensated, but an entire days worth of photos???

I am not trying to knock you or anything, just want to know why agreed to those terms. Helping out a "Friend" is one thing, knowingly being bent over by a company and taking it is completely different. With that said I hope everything pans out in your favor! If you find there is no legal issue, tell those scumbags to jump off a bridge!

[sumozebra]

Some friend you have there! I know nothing of the legality, so I will stay out of that. I am curious as to why you agreed to those terms though. Spending your own money for travel, food, and what ever else it set you back, and doing it all for free, then handing everything over to them? The only time I would give up rights to 1 photo would be if I was compensated, but an entire days worth of photos???

I am not trying to knock you or anything, just want to know why agreed to those terms. Helping out a "Friend" is one thing, knowingly being bent over by a company and taking it is completely different. With that said I hope everything pans out in your favor! If you find there is no legal issue, tell those scumbags to jump off a bridge!

i'm a sucker for helping poeple out, even if it's at my own expense =( but in anycase, i've learnt my lesson... friends are friends, and business is business, never mix the 2 together...

[R_Metzel]

i'm a sucker for helping poeple out, even if it's at my own expense =( but in anycase, i've learnt my lesson... friends are friends, and business is business, never mix the 2 together...
I used to be like that years ago. Not anymore though. It is amazing how many dishonest and non trustworthy people there are now a days. :(

[Halliday]

Why did you even agree to those terms--you would get ABSOLUTELY nothing, not even the use of the photos for your portfolio???
Agreed. Now I like taking photos but I also like having a house to live in too. Photos I can't sell or even use in my protfolio are more than worthless, they have cost me time and money!

[NetDep]

If you agreed that photos are "theirs and theirs only" then yes you did wrong. And it's useless to cry now that you didn't get anything from it, but they made some money with that production. You agreed to shoot for free, you agreed that photos are theirs only so live with it. And next time, think before you shoot for free.
Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's life.

That is said quite well. We see often of people that agree to things for the experience or just for some fun to hang out and then decide to change the agreements when the mention of money is made. What floors me is that if your time was worth something AFTER you made the agreements then it should have been worth something before as well. It is wrong to deviate from the original agreement in any way shape or form no matter how you might want to make it fit. Learn from it and acknowledge that you learned something from the shoot -- also -- you will avoid making enemies and might make some people respect you if you have the integrity to do the right thing.