300D vs. D70 debate

[midnightvue]

Just out of curiosity, now that there is a firmware hack for the 300D which gives a lot more features (See http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=7500111) how do you see the 300D vs. the D70 debate?

[Chris1le]

Well, From what I have read on the net and some photo magazines the D70 has more in common with the 10D than the 300D. Now if Canon actually releases a firmware update enabling some of the most requested features that should help bring things back in line.

Just my two cents. 8)

[Chris1le]

Well, From what I have read on the net and some photo magazines the D70 has more in common with the 10D than the 300D. Now if Canon actually releases a firmware update enabling some of the most requested features that should help bring things back in line.

Just my two cents. 8)

[timmyquest]

has more in common with the 10D than the 300D

Such as the price?

[midnightvue]

I've heard from some D70 owners and the only things that differ now are the colors between the bodies, the dial being in the back (much like on the 10D) and a dynamic buffer.

Canon hasn't released a software update yet but you can download a hack and put that firmware on your 300D. You can always put back the normal firmware if you have warrenty work that needs to be done.

[ron chappel]

No doubt the D70 is a winner.If i was buying again i might consider one but then there are the issues of having to buy expensive new nikkor lenses -allways more $ than equivilant eos and very rare and overpriced 2nd hand.

Also not sure yet of the image 'character'.I really like the gentle realistic colour of canons

[scottbergerphoto]

Also not sure yet of the image 'character'.I really like the gentle realistic colour of canons
I agree. I love the way Canon does color. My G2 and 10D produce beautiful colors. I just presented some 8x10 pictures of last Christmas to the family. People were stunned by the color. Only problem is, people always say, "You must have a good camera!", and not " I didn't know you were such a good photographer".
Regards,
Scott

[PhotosGuy]

"You must have a good camera!", and not " I didn't know you were such a good photographer".

That's because anyone who has ever taken a pic before knows how easy it is!
:lol:

[Andy_T]

What I find most astonishing about the D70 is its (top) CF write speed according to Rob Galbraith's database ... http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6425

Top speed is 4600 kb/sec vs. 3200 kb/sec on the 1D or the very meager 1305 kb/sec on the 10D/300D.

That means it's exactly 3 times faster than the 10D at writing the pictures to the CF card. That seems considerable to me.

Best regards,
Andy

[CyberDyneSystems]

It is considerable andy! :shock:

I can't fathom Canon's adherence to such slow write speeds.. granted the 1D was the fastest for years.. no shame there with a 3 plus year old design..

But the 10D-Drebel... slow as molasses at card write..

I wonder how much faster the MkII will be? I am truly doubting that it will be as fast as the D2H which is the current speed champion for card writing.

[Haifidelity]

The D70 wins hands down in terms of responsiveness, card writing and feature set..BUT, it's two different systems.

You buy into Nikon or Canon or Leica or Contax, etc. because of the lenses.

It's up to you to figure out what you want from each companies range of lenses.

-hza

[KennyG]

I wonder how much faster the MkII will be? I am truly doubting that it will be as fast as the D2H which is the current speed champion for card writing.

I think the MK-II's large buffer makes card writing speeds mostly irrelevant. I believe it will prove to be the rapid fire champion for sports shooters and everyone else will be playing catch-up for quite some time.

[photography By Evangelos]

I am not sure that you can really compare the D70 with the Digital Rebel. It seems the only way you can compare the two is by price only that is it. The Nikon blows away the digital Rebel in performance and it should, as it is a new model. If you want to compare Nikon and Canon then the match will be Canon 10D VS the D70 Nikon and the Nikon wins with it's low price and larger buffer over the 10D and faster A/F performance and great flash system which to me looks like a version of Canon ETTL II in Canon terms. I would also like to say I have never ever owned a Nikon camera in my life and am canon all the way! I how ever did play with my friends D70 this week and was very impressed and in the same time disappointed with my 10D. The Nikon is very very fast in A/F and the White balance was much better out of the camera VS the 10D. It seems to me that the 10D needs replacing soon. It needs ETTL II and the new DIGIC chip and a faster A/F and better out of camera white balance with less processing. Also the Nikon soft ware is much better.


Angelo
8)

[roanjohn]

All the reviews I've been reading about the Nikon D70 have been VERY VERY GOOD. In terms of features, performance, build, image quality and value, Nikon hit it right on the bullseye. And its black!!! It definitely has a big advantage over the Rebel and is almost on par with the Canon 10D.

For me though, it's just "L"acking something.........

I wonder what it is.............. :wink:

Ro1

[msvadi]

Frankly, I'm quite surprised to see statements like "no doubt D70 is a better camera" or "The Nikon blows away the digital Rebel in performance and it should, as it is a new model", or "I'm Canon all the way". ( I don't mean any disrespect here, I know that some people have very strong opinions)

Also, I doubt that some of the facts in previous posts are correct, for example D70 has faster A/F. I always thought that with a DSLR A/F depends on the lens.

No doubt D70 has more features, but does it mean it's a better camera? For some people yes, for others not. Does it take better pictures? I don't think so. The Drebel has an advantage of ISO 100 extremely low noise pictures. The Drebel produces cleaner pcitures at high ISO setting too.

For an average user, probably, the difference in image quality is not very significant. But an average user is not going to use advanced features of a D70 like spot meter. And I believe that with right post-processing one gets better quality pictures from a low noise censor like the DRebel has.

The bottom line is, if you are looking for a new DSLR, don't let strong, one dimensional opinions like above influence your decision. It's all relative and a D70 may be or may be not the right camera for you.

Of course, D70 is a great camera, but it does not make DRebel a bad one. They all have their strong and weak sides. Study all the details and see what's right for you.

[petiot]

angelo, where did you read that th d70 af was faster then the 10d's????

the number here say the opposite (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D70/D70A.HTM)

[photography By Evangelos]

First off let me say this I use my equipment more that most ever will FACT. I used the D70 with a Nikon lens the 28-70 2.8 ED and each and very time the camera was very fast much faster than my 2 10D's are with the 24-70 L FACT . It no secret that Nikon makes a great A/F system and has always had a bit of an edge over canon for some time now. Also the D70 with no flash attached in low light focused way faster that my 10D ever have and ever will. Some time's the 10D's would not focus at all when the lights are too low not the Nikon worked great FACT. Also I have been using the 10D's for over a year now and am very familiar with how they operate. I have also had to send them both in for A/F issues body’s only and with a lot "O" L's lenses. The A/F on the last 3 D30,D60 and 10D are sub-par performers the 10D being the best of the bunch so far and it is no secrete all of the cameras have had A/F issues.
So for a Better A/F and Larger buffer and lower price the winner is the NIKON D70 sorry it is a better camera as of today. If you want a camera in the canon line up that focus better that get a 1D,1D MK II or the 1Ds how ever it will set you back allot more that the D70 will. Simple fix for Canon replace the 10D or have an upgraded model as for me the 10D it is just a better D60 or what the D60 should have been in the first place.

Angelo 8)

[petiot]

i did not ask for all this, i just wanted to know is you had a look to the numbers provided by people who made accurate measurements on AF speed for both camera which to me seems to be more than acceptable facts (especially considering that this particular review seem to emphasis very much on the d70 qualities)

[Nolz]

intersting read, and a great thing to see we can talk about rival products/ companies without childish slanderous comments (yes it happens, oh tooo often).

ive had my 300D for 6 very enjoyable months and for the money and my level of photography i couldnt be happier. my uncle (having already been a nikon person) was waiting for the D70's arrival...we had spoken about it when i bought my 300D and new it was inevitable that nikon would make something worth the wait. so far that would seem true!

i cant wait to get my hands on his D70 in a little while!.....

cant go wrong either way.

[photography By Evangelos]

Great I think you will have a good time playing with the D70. It is a really great camera. You know I do not like the changes that canon has made to the A/F systems of there cameras since the Canon A2 with the "IR" beam which was a great asset in low light. Now with most if not all Canon's if you work in low light the A/F is not as good unless you have a flash attached to the camera in which case it uses the flash units "IR" beam to achieve focus in low light. The 10D in mixed and in low light some times hunts and hunts to achieve focus if it can. I have tested the S2,D100,and the new D70 and the all work better in low light and I am not sure why. but much faster than my Canon's. They seem to have better low light performance. I do lots of weddings and often work on low and mixed lighting so for me it is important for it to work well and fast. Which is still not the case with the 10D's and the D60 was a joke.

Angelo

[jgbryan021900]

I also had a chance to play with a D70 for a few days and the focusing is quite abit faster than the 10D....I also got very good results with the photo quality straight out of the camera.....the only downside of the camera is that it is mostly plastic, just like the digital rebel. I prefer a heavier camera. Thats why I went to a 1D. It is the only Canon that I felt like would suite my needs. I know the D70's are selling very fast. I'm sure Canon will respond to this and come out with a new and improved consumer model slr......

[photography By Evangelos]

jgbryan021900,

You are correct the files out of their camera were wonderful. Finally some one who agrees with me for a change. Most on the forum get very defensive when you say a Nikon is better. For me I may one day buy one and a few lenses. But for now I have over $20,000 in Canon "L" glass to make any changes for now. But some times I have Nikon Envy. As they do have a much better A/F system and more advanced flash units.

Angelo 8)

[intolight]

somebody please say something nice about the 300D. :roll: I was debating between the 300D and the D70. And after reading different opinions and reviews chose the Canon. (I'm waiting for it now).

But from what i've read;
the nikon has more features (such as more control over white balance), better AF especially in low light (i would manual focus there anyway), is faster in both auto focus and writing, also is not limited in rapid fire.

the canon is ...well, cheaper and you don't have to wait to buy one (it's faster in that way). Aside from that there's not much feature wise that the 300D has over the D70. There was one post that claimed sharper pictures with the Canon (with pictures to back it up) and some have claimed that Canon has a greater assortment or quality of lenses (not sure which).

But i am under the assumption that in spite of the limitations of the 300D the picture quality rivals the D70.

Do all you 300 D owners have Nikon envy?

cheers
gregory

[timmyquest]

Lenses...thats my main reason for sticking to canon. Aside from the amount of money i have invested in them, most would agree that from normal to telephoto, the canons offer more.

[Lamplight]

Do all you 300 D owners have Nikon envy?

Nah, I love my camera and I don't regret buying it for a second. :) Granted, I stepped up to the DRebel from an Olympus C4000 Zoom, so the differences were pretty huge to me. (Although I still must say that for what it was, the C4000 was a dang good camera)

[gcogger]

Something nice about the 300D :-)

When I was looking at which DSLR to buy, I really wanted either a Pentax *istD (great viewfinder, small, solid build) or Nikon D70 (full-featured, decent kit lens). In the end I bought a 300D because, and this is highly subjective, Canon DSLR images looked much nicer than those from the other cameras. To my eye the images from all the other brands (except maybe Sigma, and they had other problems) looked rather artificial - they looked like digital images. The Canon images looked much more natural, especially on portraits.

As I said, I wanted not to like the Canon cameras - the 10D is too big, and the 300D is lacking some features and (for me) was not as comfortable to hold. But the images won me over...

[msvadi]

Last time I checked even Dpreview admitted that 300D produces "cleaner" images and that D70 cannot compete with the 300D "silky smooth" ISO 100. And, as you all know, Dpreview rates D70 higher than 300D.

I was very tempted by D70, but I bought 300D because I was convinced that it gives better quality images than D70. (and also because I already had some Canon accessories, including 420EX flash, and 300D was cheaper and available for purchase immediately). By better quality I mean clean images. One has to decide what's more important for him: D70 functionality or Canon image quality.

By the way, IMHO, sharpness is a relative thing. It depends on many factors, including lenses and photographer skills. But there should not be a problem with either camera to achieve good focus. So with proper lenses, good camera support and photoshop skills you can make your pictures as sharp as you want.

I remember a conversation with a sales person at B&H. He said that he was a Nikon guy, but he also said that "if you master the unsharp mask filter then you can make marginally sharper pictures with a 10D" (the conversation was about 10D vs D100).

Do I have Nikon envy? Not at all, I would buy 300D again ;)
But, no doubt, I would love to have a spot meter. I had it on my G2 and I was using it very often. Partial metering is just not good enough especially with wide angle. Grid line is a nice thing to have too. Never tried it, but I imagine it's quite useful for composing.



somebody please say something nice about the 300D. :roll: I was debating between the 300D and the D70. And after reading different opinions and reviews chose the Canon. (I'm waiting for it now).

But from what i've read;
the nikon has more features (such as more control over white balance), better AF especially in low light (i would manual focus there anyway), is faster in both auto focus and writing, also is not limited in rapid fire.

the canon is ...well, cheaper and you don't have to wait to buy one (it's faster in that way). Aside from that there's not much feature wise that the 300D has over the D70. There was one post that claimed sharper pictures with the Canon (with pictures to back it up) and some have claimed that Canon has a greater assortment or quality of lenses (not sure which).

But i am under the assumption that in spite of the limitations of the 300D the picture quality rivals the D70.

Do all you 300 D owners have Nikon envy?

cheers
gregory

[Tom W]

Last time I checked even Dpreview admitted that 300D produces "cleaner" images and that D70 cannot compete with the 300D "silky smooth" ISO 100. And, as you all know, Dpreview rates D70 higher than 300D.

I was very tempted by D70, but I bought 300D because I was convinced that it gives better quality images than D70. (and also because I already had some Canon accessories, including 420EX flash, and 300D was cheaper and available for purchase immediately). By better quality I mean clean images. One has to decide what's more important for him: D70 functionality or Canon image quality.

By the way, IMHO, sharpness is a relative thing. It depends on many factors, including lenses and photographer skills. But there should not be a problem with either camera to achieve good focus. So with proper lenses, good camera support and photoshop skills you can make your pictures as sharp as you want.

I remember a conversation with a sales person at B&H. He said that he was a Nikon guy, but he also said that "if you master the unsharp mask filter then you can make marginally sharper pictures with a 10D" (the conversation was about 10D vs D100).

Do I have Nikon envy? Not at all, I would buy 300D again ;)
But, no doubt, I would love to have a spot meter. I had it on my G2 and I was using it very often. Partial metering is just not good enough especially with wide angle. Grid line is a nice thing to have too. Never tried it, but I imagine it's quite useful for composing.



I also read Phil's review and I'm really wondering how he came to some of his conclusions. The Canon, in this particular comparison, has superior image quality in most of Phil's test pictures, and yet his words defy his findings. I wouldn't say that the difference it really huge, at least not from what I've seen, but it is definately the opposite of his writings.

That said, Nikon has built a winner - the image quality is excellent (almost as good as the Rebel or the 10D), the feature set is somewhat better in some areas, and the price is good. It has a pretty decent kit lens as well.

This is all good for everybody - remember last year when Canon introduced the 10D? It was a major leap beyond its competitors. Then the Digital Rebel came out and brought SLR-quality images down to the $1000 range. Canon practically invented this market.

Nikon, to their credit, responded with a formidable competitor with the D-70. But one should not think for a moment that Canon will rest on its laurels - within 6 months, there'll be a new Canon or two in this range that will again leap ahead of Nikon. If the 1D Mk II is any indication, it will be a quantum leap.

[richard_a]

Why do people always compare images straight out of the camera in order to compare image quality of competing cameras? The answer is this.... you cannot and should not compare IQ straight out of the camera, especially with DSLRs that use different AA filters.

Images from the Nikon D70 will be sharper straight from the camera because Nikon decided to use a weaker AA filter compared to those used by Canon. The stronger AA filter used in Canons will result in a bit of softness in images but can be very easily fixed in Post Processing.

Oh and the problem with a weak AA filter is moire which the D70 suffers. Moire issues on the Canon line of DSLRs is not as frequent (although it can occur).

[Kadath]

I'm still on the fence buying my first DSLR (I'm a nikon 8008 owner). I still havent held a D70 in my hands yet to try it out but thats the way I'm leaning.

You wanna know what the biggest nagging doubt in my mind is? All of the Nikon based message boards pretty much blow, even the mostly good Nikonians site is weirdly formatted. Pretty lame restrictions on that forum about where and how many pictures you can put in your threads.

If there was as half as good a site as this Canon one for Nikon, the D70 would be a slam dunk for me.

I hope I'm still welcome to stay here having said that tho =)

Sam

[garethhhhh]

I'm still on the fence buying my first DSLR (I'm a nikon 8008 owner). I still havent held a D70 in my hands yet to try it out but thats the way I'm leaning.

You wanna know what the biggest nagging doubt in my mind is? All of the Nikon based message boards pretty much blow, even the mostly good Nikonians site is weirdly formatted. Pretty lame restrictions on that forum about where and how many pictures you can put in your threads.

If there was as half as good a site as this Canon one for Nikon, the D70 would be a slam dunk for me.

I hope I'm still welcome to stay here having said that tho =)

Sam

You would seriously use the quality of one message board over another as the basis for an expensive camera decision??? :shock: :shock:

[kb244]

I'm still on the fence buying my first DSLR (I'm a nikon 8008 owner). I still havent held a D70 in my hands yet to try it out but thats the way I'm leaning.

You wanna know what the biggest nagging doubt in my mind is? All of the Nikon based message boards pretty much blow, even the mostly good Nikonians site is weirdly formatted. Pretty lame restrictions on that forum about where and how many pictures you can put in your threads.

If there was as half as good a site as this Canon one for Nikon, the D70 would be a slam dunk for me.

I hope I'm still welcome to stay here having said that tho =)

Sam

You would seriously use the quality of one message board over another as the basis for an expensive camera decision??? :shock: :shock:

I think he means to say, that based on the BBs around if he did pick up a canon body, he might have a much better time seeking help, than with a nikon body. Least thats what I think he's trying to say.

[PhotosGuy]

If there was as half as good a site as this Canon one for Nikon, the D70 would be a slam dunk for me.

I hope I'm still welcome to stay here having said that tho =)

Yeah, I have 3 Nikons & 1 Canon, (No "L"s) , & here I am!
Welcome!
:lol:

[jgbryan021900]

I had mentioned earlier that the d70 did have sharp photos but I would also like to note that they may have a reliability problem, one of the local camera stores which I will not mention has already had 3 returned for various issues.....

[Belmondo]

Yeah, I have 3 Nikons & 1 Canon, (No "L"s) , & here I am!
Welcome!
:lol:

I had two Nikons. I gave them both away. One I gave to a very lovely young women who dates a friend of mine. She was in Playboy around a year ago.

I gave the other one to my brother; he has never been in Playboy. Airbrushing has severe limitations which make such an occurrence extremely unlikely.

[Kadath]

based on the BBs around if he did pick up a canon body, he might have a much better time seeking help, than with a nikon body

No, not help so much as a sense of community and shared experience with a common subject. I'm a usenetter from way back, and while much of that old school flavor hits dead on with some web boards(like this one, and say Home Theater Forum), others are just so lame (like Dpreviews, man that is just a mess). They cant even get threading subjects right.

Seriously, if you havent, go try out some of the nikon web boards:

http://www.nikonians.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID86&conf=DCConfI D3

is the best I've found. If you have a better one, please illuminate me.

Sam

[msvadi]

from the pop-photo web site:

http://www.popphoto.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=868&page_numbe r=1&preview=

"At ISO 200, (the D70's) noise was low, but higher than the Digital Rebel’s". Further, one has to take into account thay the Digital Rebel has ISO 100 and the D70 does not.

"(the D70) AF speeds ... slower (especially in low light) than the Canon EOS Digital Rebel. "

On the other hand, "In color accuracy tests ... the D70 beat ... Canon’s $899 EOS Digital Rebel".

[Tom W]

Yeah, I have 3 Nikons & 1 Canon, (No "L"s) , & here I am!
Welcome!
:lol:

I had two Nikons. I gave them both away. One I gave to a very lovely young women who dates a friend of mine. She was in Playboy around a year ago.

I gave the other one to my brother; he has never been in Playboy. Airbrushing has severe limitations which make such an occurrence extremely unlikely.

If you're going to fix up your friends with Playboy models, then consider me a very close friend. In fact, you can forget about that 400 mm table leg you owe me. :)

[Tom W]

from the pop-photo web site:

http://www.popphoto.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=868&page_numbe r=1&preview=

"At ISO 200, (the D70's) noise was low, but higher than the Digital Rebel’s". Further, one has to take into account thay the Digital Rebel has ISO 100 and the D70 does not.

"(the D70) AF speeds ... slower (especially in low light) than the Canon EOS Digital Rebel. "

On the other hand, "In color accuracy tests ... the D70 beat ... Canon’s $899 EOS Digital Rebel".

Interesting. I have the print edition - I only skimmed the D70 article. I guess I'll have to read more thoroughly.

I'm a bit surprised about the color accuracy. I think my 10D is very, very close to reality. I've found that lens choice has more effect on color accuracy now.

[msvadi]

I'm not sure if the test results are in the printed edition. It appears as a separate article on the web site.

Regarding the color accuracy, I think that the DRebel has been tested at its default parameters which are set to high contarst and high saturation.

Anyway, the pop photo claims that in color accuracy tests the D70 "scored higher than any other 6MP DSLR".