Getting into the biz...

[acorean]

So, I broke down a few months ago and bought me some real gear (see gear below). I'm not very big on PP so I try to take the best picture I can and do basic cleanup in ACDSee Pro (I don't know squat about PhotoPhop). With that said.

How does one enter the realm of making money vs. just spending it on gear. I have already volunteered and did some freebies for family and friends at different events. Although everyone says I took great pictures I think they are ok (but I'm much more critical of myself). Lots of people are impressed if it is better than they can do with their point-and-shoot. I am at the point where I don't think I'll disappoint if I do some low end work for relatively short dollars.

Any suggestions on what type of work to pick up, where to find it, how much is reasonable to charge for a starter (I'd rather be somewhat cheap and if it is only B or C class work then they "got what they paid for"). I wouldn't even consider a wedding since this is a HUGELY significant once in a lifetime day for most people.

I'd like to build my reputation and clientele slowly and positively. Help me out.

Thanks. (Sorry so long winded)

-C

Gear:
Canon XTi, 50mm f/1.8, 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM, 70-200mm f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX

[Julio]

Do you have an album we can see?

[acorean]

Good point. Actually I don't... yet. It will take me some time to pull together a portfolio album that I can share.

[MJPhotos24]

There's been a few posts on this so you may want to do a search in the thread for info.

The big question you asked though is what kind of work, well what kind do you want to do? I want to be in sports, so I shoot sports. I don't want to shoot weddings, so I don't shoot weddings. The money in some is better than others, pro sports photography on a freelance basis sucks. Youth sports (portraits/team pics) photogrphy money isn't to shabby, weddings are good money though as you mentioned thats something you need to be good at since its a huge event that only happens once for couples. All in all,you have to shoot what you enjoy, if you don't then it just becomes boring and you'd probably be getting out of the photography field quick.

[Hawg Hanner]

To truly succeed in the world of photography as a professional you will need to be gifted, intelligent, hard working, and lucky. There are more prosumer and professional grade cameras being used today than at any other time in history. Everyone thinks they can be a professional photographer; and even if they can't, combined they still take work away from the talented professional photographers.

If your dream is to make a go of it in the field of photography I encourage you to chase those dreams...but to do so diligently and wisely. There is a lot of competition out there and it is only going to get worse.

[liza]

You need a business plan and a good accountant. Brush up on your marketing skills, also, because the business of photography is about 80% marketing and 20% photography. If you plan to shoot professionally, purchase good quality equipment and have backups for everything. For example, I've spent over 11K for equipment, computers, and software, not to mention several hundred in the past few months just on hosting and advertising. The initial investment is not cheap. Most importantly, you will need to carve a niche for yourself and provide something unique to potential customers, because the competition is fierce from all the amateurs who will undercut you. Getting into "the biz" is very rough these days, so you need to be prepared and know what you're getting into.

[PhotosGuy]

These might help: Online Photo Printing for Selling Images (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138432)

Making Money In Photography
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=143138

Turning Pro by David Henderson
http://www.photo.net/learn/turningpro.html

Stock Photo License pricing
http://photographersindex.com/price-adv-calc.htm

Starting up in business (UK)
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/startingup/index.htm

[Jon, The Elder]

To truly succeed in the world of photography as a professional you will need to be gifted, intelligent, hard working, and lucky. There are more prosumer and professional grade cameras being used today than at any other time in history. Everyone thinks they can be a professional photographer; and even if they can't, combined they still take work away from the talented professional photographers.

Well said.

Get an old shopping cart and start collecting used Pop cans. This way you can make money as you learn photography. 2 years from now, you should be about breaking even. By then you will have figured out your market.

[Mario.]

Everyone thinks they can be a professional photographer; and even if they can't, combined they still take work away from the talented professional photographers.

I have to politely disagree. If a prosumer photographer is taking work away from a talented professional photographer, that only leads to two conclusions:

The prosumer is producing images that are, to the client, just as good as the talented professional,

OR

The talented professional isn't very talented if the prosumer is taking business away.

[PhotosGuy]

Get an old shopping cart and start collecting used Pop cans. This way you can make money as you learn photography. 2 years from now, you should be about breaking even. By then you will have figured out your market. It worked for Jon! Now he shoots "horsies".
Personally, I'd use f/.30-06 ;)

[acorean]

Thanks for all the great advice!

The truth is I make a pretty good living as an engineer and it keeps me extremely busy at times (a.k.a. no time to shoot :cry:).

I have invested circa $3k so far and would like to recoup some of my expenses as well as make money to trade up. I figure as my skills slowly grow so will my equipment to match.

I just want to make enough money to support my habit (um... I mean hobby) for now.

At this point I would mostly pick up work through networking and doing small jobs relatively cheap, get my name out there, and let the grapevine do the rest.

If at some point it becomes something more, I'll rethink my strategy.

[liza]

Get an old shopping cart and start collecting used Pop cans. This way you can make money as you learn photography. 2 years from now, you should be about breaking even. By then you will have figured out your market.

I thought it was more like three years. :lol:

I have to politely disagree. If a prosumer photographer is taking work away from a talented professional photographer, that only leads to two conclusions:

The prosumer is producing images that are, to the client, just as good as the talented professional,

OR

The talented professional isn't very talented if the prosumer is taking business away.

OR it has nothing to do with talent. Many people are cheap and don't give a darn about quality if they can get some newbie with a digital rebel to give them a CD of images for a hundred bucks. I hear this over and over again from budget brides. Talent does not figure into the equation.


I have invested circa $3k so far and would like to recoup some of my expenses as well as make money to trade up. I figure as my skills slowly grow so will my equipment to match.

I just want to make enough money to support my habit (um... I mean hobby) for now.


Don't forget that you will need to pay taxes on your earnings, including federal tax, self employment tax, sales tax, and FICA.

[Mario.]

OR it has nothing to do with talent. Many people are cheap and don't give a darn about quality if they can get some newbie with a digital rebel to give them a CD of images for a hundred bucks. I hear this over and over again from budget brides. Talent does not figure into the equation.

Again - a professional photographer probably won't deal with a budget bride - thus the prosumer is not taking away business from the professional. Many people on here get butthurt about all these prosumers who pick up a dSLR and start a business. So what? It makes the professional shots look that much better. :)

[liza]

The problem is that more and more brides are falling into the budget category. My standard packages are designed to cater to higher end brides, but I also have a budget package to capture work from the lower end of the bridal food chain. Thus far this year I've gotten a grand total of ONE booking and had to negotiate price to get that one. And from talking to other professionals I'm not the only one having this problem. If it were not for my portrait work, I'd go broke.

[Mario.]

The problem is that more and more brides are falling into the budget category. My standard packages are designed to cater to higher end brides, but I also have a budget package to capture work from the lower end of the bridal food chain. Thus far this year I've gotten a grand total of ONE booking and had to negotiate price to get that one. And from talking to other professionals I'm not the only one having this problem. If it were not for my portrait work, I'd go broke.

I think there are many factors based upon the problem you are having - I see many many photographers here who are boooked for the whole year at $5k+. Location? Talent/skill/end result?

I still believe strongly if a lower end photographer is stealing business from a higher end photographer - than there is something wrong with the higher end photographer for a majority of the part. :)

[Jon, The Elder]

At this point I would mostly pick up work through networking and doing small jobs relatively cheap, get my name out there, and let the grapevine do the rest.

What a perfect plan for ultimate failure. Unless you are going to shoot kiddy parties at a $100 a shoot.

If you really want to pursue it seriously....print out Liza's first response and nail it to your wall. Read it twice a day til' it sinks in.

When you threw out the term "Biz" I thought you were seriously asking how to go about entering the professional photography business. I see now that it was merely a passing thought to offset your hobby costs.

[liza]

I think there are many factors based upon the problem you are having - I see many many photographers here who are boooked for the whole year at $5k+. Location? Talent/skill/end result?

I still believe strongly if a lower end photographer is stealing business from a higher end photographer - than there is something wrong with the higher end photographer for a majority of the part. :)

So, what do YOU do to book weddings? I'd be interested in hearing about your business plan and marketing strategies, in particular those that allow you to book weddings for the whole year. How many do you have booked for this year so far? As I've said, the majority of my work is portraiture, sports, and photojournalism, but I would like to increase the number of wedding bookings this year. Perhaps you could share some of your own strategies.

[acorean]

Don't forget that you will need to pay taxes on your earnings, including federal tax, self employment tax, sales tax, and FICA.

yes, but then my "hobby" becomes tax deductible, I can live with that. (most likely a wash for at least the first year.)

What a perfect plan for ultimate failure. Unless you are going to shoot kiddy parties at a $100 a shoot.

I'm not saying I wouldn't take it more seriously later on. But until I can grow to the point of being guaranteed 6 figures a year from photography, it will remain "job #2"/hobby.

This day and age, especially living in Boston, I can't afford to take a step backwards in pay. Doing what you love for a living is a great idea but more of a luxury than an necessity.

[liza]

yes, but then my "hobby" becomes tax deductible, I can live with that. (most likely a wash for at least the first year.)


Be very, very careful when using hobby income as a tax deduction. Showing a consistent loss over several years is a red flag to the IRS and can invite an audit.

[acorean]

I agree completely. Showing a loss for a year or two is normal with any business. Any longer is a little suspect.

[Jon, The Elder]

Now I understand what "Pie-in-the-sky" means.

Thanks for the chuckles.

[Hawg Hanner]

I have to politely disagree. If a prosumer photographer is taking work away from a talented professional photographer, that only leads to two conclusions:

The prosumer is producing images that are, to the client, just as good as the talented professional,

OR

The talented professional isn't very talented if the prosumer is taking business away.

And while I respect your opinion, I will politely disagree with you. I see this happening first-hand in the Flickr community. Average photographers, who can capture wonderful images occaissionally but are by no means consistent and can not do so regularly are being asked to provide their work for books, magazines, calendars, web sites, etc. As my grandfather once said, "Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn every once in a while."

Many of these amateurs armed with prosumer cameras and lenses are either giving away their work or they are setting prices very, very low. Places like Flickr AND the evolution of prosumer and professional grade digital cameras that are within reach of affluent amateurs have completely gutted the stock photography segment of the industry.

Next to fall victim (I predict) will be the wedding photography segment. I see people on Flickr all of the time approaching amateur photographers to photograph their weddings just because their progressive online portfolio is impressive, yet they have no real experience photographing a wedding. Even I have been approached by no less than 6 people over the past year to photograph their weddings; people I don't even know and people who also don't know that (1) I am not a professional, (2) I have never shot a wedding, and (3) I have only been in this hobby of mine for two years.

Because there are many, many more amateurs out there than professionals, all told and all combined they are taking work away from talented professionals. They may not last long doing so, but then there will be a new amateur right behind them.

I agree that professional photographers need to learn to adapt or die (and feel they can and should) but to think amateurs armed with 30Ds, 5Ds, 1D Mark IIIs, etc. aren't impacting the sales of professionals is short sighted and wrong. And the dirty little secret is that it will get much worse before it gets better.

[S.Horton]

Be very, very careful when using hobby income as a tax deduction. Showing a consistent loss over several years is a red flag to the IRS and can invite an audit.

3/5 years loss, max, and even if you 'make' money a few things must be true: you need to have 'lost' actual cash to deduct something, and you must have earnestly attempted to conduct sales and operations. For example, having an actual bank account for the biz is basically a requirement.

[EOS mE]

great info here... subscribed for later

[Chrisedge]

There is a market for low-end photography. If someone is coming in and undercutting you, you are not showing your real value enough. It's sad but as more and more people are able to afford photography equipment, more people are able to enter this market. While they might not have the abilities of a highend wedding photog, they have the pricing advantage.

I have seen first hand highend guys that are disasters, so...you can't always blame the lowend guy...

[Bosscat]

I think the biggest issue is people are inherently cheap by nature, and if they can get something for less they will.

Problem is, they often are getting less for less.

Its a hard road these days with so many people being out there shooting, but if you have the images with the "WOW" factor, you'll win out in the end.

Practise, practise, practise, and never stop thriving to come up with stunning shots. When you are the one with the "WOW'' shots, then you'll be in demand.

[MikeMcL]

To the OP, I vote that you start marketing toward childrens' parents.

Do 3-12 year olds' sports games, team pics, christmas pics, easter pics, birthday pics, girl scout troops, etc...

Part of the reason I say this is that people in this category are very emotional buyers, and love a decent pic of their kids...also, every 10 year old know like 25 other 10 year olds, and their parents all hang out together on the sidelines, the bleachers, or the lobby of the misc. places they are.

You could talk to a mom, do the kids shots, then get the call a week later asking you to do the basketball team picture and individual trading cards... Then at the BBall team pic, you can hand out 15 cards to moms that will want pics... and so on and so forth.

Don't give up the engineering quite yet. you can certainly make a nice chunk of money in a niche market that isn't well covered... as long as you dont need "full time" money, you can see what works for you, and grow your skill, portfolio and equip.

Definately get a website, portfolio, some business cards and a pricelist. Don't work for peanuts. if you can take the shot, you can get paid decently. there are many threads like this. Confidence and presentation are a big part of building value in your pictures.

good luck

[MikeMcL]

3/5 years loss, max, and even if you 'make' money a few things must be true: you need to have 'lost' actual cash to deduct something, and you must have earnestly attempted to conduct sales and operations. For example, having an actual bank account for the biz is basically a requirement.

You cannot claim a loss on a hobby. It is tax law. You can only claim expenses up to the amount of your earnings, and it doesn't necessarily give you any tax break at all.

in short, a hobby loss is NOT deductible. That is straight out of a US government income tax manual. "tips and other compensation for personal services" is also taxable. really, you are screwed if you try to do this as a hobby (as far as deductions go) unless you are stashing shoeboxes of cash under the floorboards, and evading taxes... you will pay the taxes but not get the reduced tax basis benefit from the equipment expenses.

If you were to establish a LLC or something like that, you could at least depreciate the equipment and claim some business expenses as a loss.

You can't operate a hobby at a loss. you can operate a business at a loss. Hopefully I dont have to explain the business Vs. hobby relationship.

Talk to an HR block person. they deal with this stuation every day.

[Tandem]

You cannot claim a loss on a hobby. It is tax law. You can only claim expenses up to the amount of your earnings, and it doesn't necessarily give you any tax break at all.

in short, a hobby loss is NOT deductible. That is straight out of a US government income tax manual. "tips and other compensation for personal services" is also taxable. really, you are screwed if you try to do this as a hobby (as far as deductions go) unless you are stashing shoeboxes of cash under the floorboards, and evading taxes... you will pay the taxes but not get the reduced tax basis benefit from the equipment expenses.

If you were to establish a LLC or something like that, you could at least depreciate the equipment and claim some business expenses as a loss.

You can't operate a hobby at a loss. you can operate a business at a loss. Hopefully I dont have to explain the business Vs. hobby relationship.

Talk to an HR block person. they deal with this stuation every day.
I went to a tax accountant - best $230 I ever spent. His advice was to do everything possible to show that I have a business plan to make money. That can be as simple as starting up a website like smugmug to sell photos. I might not show a profit until I retire at the end of 2008 but at least I have a plan in place to make money.

Disclaimer: I can't advise you on what deductions you can take. It depends on your circumstances but here are some of the ones I'm taking.

New equipment
Cost of the website
Computer (I use it 100% for photography, I don't have time to do anything else on it)
Broadband internet fees (I need it to upload photos)
Mileage to and from events
1/2 of meal expenses - lunches with clients and with other photogs to discuss photography, etc.
Advertising - business cards, logo shirts, signs, etc.

By operating as a business these expenses can come off my total income, not just my photography income. It gives me a nice chunk of change back that I can put back into my photography business. So right now I can use the income from my full-time job to purchase equipment so that in 2009 I can live off my pension and make money working full-time with photography.

[acorean]

a hobby loss is NOT deductible. That is straight out of a US government income tax manual. "tips and other compensation for personal services" is also taxable. really, you are screwed if you try to do this as a hobby (as far as deductions go) unless you are stashing shoeboxes of cash under the floorboards, and evading taxes... you will pay the taxes but not get the reduced tax basis benefit from the equipment expenses.

If you were to establish a LLC or something like that, you could at least depreciate the equipment and claim some business expenses as a loss.

You can't operate a hobby at a loss. you can operate a business at a loss. Hopefully I dont have to explain the business Vs. hobby relationship.

Talk to an HR block person. they deal with this stuation every day.

I completely agree and I am aware of the tax law. I should have stated my point more clearly. The long and short of it is that, yes, photography is my hobby, however, if I am to start a business I can roll the equipment into the business and depreciate that value over a period of time. To be truly honest with uncle sam, since my equipment would be for dual use (i.e. personal and business) I can depreciate about half of the value (once again based on usage).

Basically, I want to do things legally and starting a side business is a way to recoup some of my investment.

Also, thanks Mike for the great advice. I actually had this conversation with some friends and came to the same conclusion... kids sporting events, etc. and network from there. Your post was the first sound piece of advice. (no offence to anyone) but it was quickly hijacked by the "amateurs are stealing my work, blah blah blah.

Look, any one with a sense of value knows you get what you pay for. If someone wants to spend $5k on their wedding photog they expect remarkable pictures (I will be getting married next year and am NOT skimping on the photog). Someone how takes average-ish wedding pictures regardless of their price is probably not going to get much repeat work (people share their proofs with family and friends who may need a photog someday). Now-a-days with technology being more affordable, yes, people are jumping in and getting their feet wet... DON'T FORGET THIS WAS YOU ONCE UPON A TIME.... and yes, maybe they are taking some of your work. This is like any other business. Do I spend $20k on a quality toyota or $15 on a Hyundai? However, this amazing thing known as "affordable technology" also allows pros to have a website, portolios, pricing, etc. that anyone can view with a simple click of the mouse. I am sure this has helped many of you make money as well. So take your pick. You can't have it both ways!

Personally I am realistic about what my skills are and I don't want to disappoint. So if i go down to the local baseball field, snap some shots, post them to a website, hand out some business cards, and have parents want to buy pictures, then GREAT! It is a start, and as my skills, confidence, and results improve, I'll venture on to bigger and better things.

Once again, thanks Mike.

just my $.02