Complete dual simultaneous body failures during ceremony

[tim]

Well, let me tell you a story. Some of you will have read that my two 20D's have been giving me a little trouble during weddings, usually though I could just turn them off and on again, and off they'd go. So I cleaned the contacts of all my cameras and lenses with my copperhill kit, which is ethanol. I tested everything, it worked fine, so couple of days later I go off to the wedding.

During the prep shots they worked fine, with both the bride and groom. At the start of the ceremony one camera turned on then refused to focus, then refused to do anything at all. I grabbed the other body and put the 17-55 on, the body worked but it wouldn't focus with the 17-55. I put on the 50mm F1.4, and off I went. I shot a lot of the ceremony with the 50mm F1.4, then when I had a minute half way through I put the 17-55 on, it worked, so off I went. While I was doing this I tried the other body, which was still buggered despite having had the batteries out and the lens off for 5 minutes. I was taking photos fine until the signing of the register, got the bride and groom signing, when it just stopped. It wouldn't lock focus, then gave me ERR something. At this point BOTH of my bodies have completely failed, and I was eyeing up the Nikon a guest was carrying.

I calmly went to the back of the church to look at it, with the backup plan of calling my local store and having them drive over with a new body right then. I spent 2 minutes, cleaned the lens contacts and camera contacts with a cloth, and one body started working again. I shot the rest of the ceremony and the group photos using my one working camera, hoping that it kept going. It generally did, though it locked up occasionally but was fixed by popping the batteries then putting them back in. It generally worked properly for the rest of the day.

At the reception I grabbed the other body, cleaned the camera contacts and the 70-200 contacts, put it on, and the camera started working. It worked for the rest of the night, though I got a couple of ERR99s and occasionally the aperture went to 00, indicating that the camera couldn't talk to the lens.

So, as you can imagine, I was not entirely happy with the performance of my cameras today. I almost threw them out the 6th floor window at one point. You'll be happy to hear that even with all of this I missed only one shot during the day, of the best man signing the register, which could not be called a critical shot. The camera only ever fail under pressure, so any tests I do always come out fine. The bride and groom might have wondered why I wandered to the back of the church during the ceremony, but otherwise were unaware of the problems - no need to add stress to their day.

Of course both my bodies are going back to Canon immediately, with all my lenses. I've arranged for the loan of a 5D and a 20D for my next two weddings, so i'm covered. I may have to look at a 1DMk3 if that's what it takes to have a reliable piece of equipment for weddings, even though I don't actually want a 1 series body right now.

If you want to see a few images from the wedding check out this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2999766).

[Grace]

Oh Tim, I would had a hard time not crying when it was all said and done.. I normally hold up really well and stay calm through the critical moments, but break down in my car... that sucks- then I'd be pi**ed. I can't wait to see what you think of the 5D.

[Mario.]

That's scary man. Hope you get your situation all worked out - I know your previous threads have scared me. Time to keep many backups. :)

[dragnfly1996]

A photographers worst fear. Sounds like you handled the stress well, you got some great shots. The definition of Pro.

[SuzyView]

I think this is one reason why I keep my EOS 3 and 4 rolls of film in my bag "Just in Case" and I have never needed it yet. You use your equipment so much, I'm surprised both cameras went at the same time. Sending everything to Canon for a good look at is the right way to go. But really, you will fall in love with the 5D. It's amazing. If I decide to shoot more, I may consider the MKIII, but right now, it's too pricey for me. But for you, a 1 series would be called for. You need something more dependable. Canon has always boasted the 1 series can take the punishment. Go for it! And your pictures were great. Fast on your feet and fast cleaning worked for you. I think I would have dissolved into tears in the church bathroom when #2 gave out. I would have grabbed the guest's Nikon even if I didn't know how to use it. ;)

[Wazza]

Tim, what's up with our 20Ds lately?

My 20D also locked up a couple of times today.

At one point, I was outside at night, with a tripod, there was no focus. Nothing in screen, yet the lcd on top of body was lit up and showing shutter speed/aperture, but no memory card (number of shots left) info. Batteries, out and in. Still didn't work. Batteries out and lens for 2min again, and this finally corrected it.

My flash is rather hopeless too. I've tried another flash, (matt's) and that also started firing too powerful, could hear it whirring up, and then firing at close to 1/1 power. Could dud batteries confuse the 580EX? Both camera bodies, and two different flashes have been having this error. I'm also not happy with my equipment lately. :o

Any excuse for a 1D III huh? ;)

[tim]

Thanks everyone, thanks Jenn for the nice words. This thread is me venting, and a warning to other. If your cameras start to have issues, get 'em fixed right away, don't wait until it's too late.

Wazza, flash issues are usually a connection problem for me, try giving the contacts a good clean. Don't use ethanol.

[sblais]

Kudos to you for handling the situation so well! I wonder at this point if it would be a very wise investment for wedding photographers to get a full check and clean up of their cameras during the low season...

When I look into the future, I see Tim shooting with two 5D cameras... ;) I figure once you try a FF camera, you won't want to go back :)

[tim]

I don't like full frame, too much distortion at the edges of the frame - faces go a funny shape, even with L lenses.

[sblais]

That explains why I'm not a psychic!! :lol:

[JustKat]

What a day for you! Sounds like you kept your cool though and worked through it. How lucky you are to have been able to limp the cameras along. I just feel awful for you, what a stressful mess!
Glad you shared this with us, it gives me another heads up of how quickly and easily things can go wrong without warning.
I have a wedding to do today and I think I might just take every piece of equipment I have along. I guess we can never be to careful.
I have read your past posts on your 20D's locking up, so I already know they have been giving you some trouble, but now that that awful day is over and you've had a little time to think, any new thoughts on why this might have happened?

[NickSimcheck]

Wow, I know I'd be sweating bullets. Sounds like you handled it quite well and I am glad to hear it didn't cause you to miss the "big" shots.

[tim]

I have a photographer who works for me who wasn't far away, I could've gotten a camera off him. He actually turned up at my reception to help out as he wasn't needed at his wedding for an hour or so, but my cameras were mostly ok by then so I stuck with mine. It's his cameras i'll be using for my next two weddings.

As to why, no, not really. I cleaned the contacts with ethanol recently, that's the only thing different from usual.

[Rumjungle]

Good job handling the pressure! Just the thought of having both cameras go down during a wedding gives me the chills. I think I'll go clean my contacts now.:)

[JustKat]

Please do let us know what you hear from Canon. I admired your die-hard attitude before, but now I think you even outrank the Energizer Bunny:) !

[tim]

Good job handling the pressure! Just the thought of having both cameras go down during a wedding gives me the chills. I think I'll go clean my contacts now.:)

Don't use ethanol! A lens cloth is good, that's what rescued me.

Please do let us know what you hear from Canon. I admired your die-hard attitude before, but now I think you even outrank the Energizer Bunny:) !

I'll keep you all updated. Canon NZ have been pretty poor lately according to Wazza and guys from the GKPE, but i'll be calling ahead to a guy i've had a little contact with within Canon.

[SuzyView]

Do you have grips on your 20D's? I wondering if it's a battery issue.

[tim]

Do you have grips on your 20D's? I wondering if it's a battery issue.

Yes on both. I don't think it's a grip issue, because the cameras both have power, they just refuse to do anything useful like take pictures.

[SuzyView]

Darn, I'll have to keep an eye on my 20D with grip at the wedding coming up.

And really, I don't see too much distortion with my 5D using the 24-70 near the 70 end. The 50 and 85 are amazing on the 5D. I can't do a portrait without one of those two lenses on the 5D these days. I never put the 17-40 on the 5D because that's when the distortion is too much for me. Otherwise, I don't notice. The quality of the full RAW captures is enough for me to stick with the 5D. PP isn't so time consuming, but you are great at that with the 20D's.

[Rumjungle]

...both have power, they just refuse to do anything useful like take pictures.


And for that, you had to rant and rave like a spoiled child?;)

Have you worked with the 30D or 5D before? Just curious if you've considered them as replacements.

[CyberPet]

Tim, it sucks major to read what happend to you. Keep us posted on what might be the reason. As you say you cleaned the contacs on the lenses and camera, it sounds like it might be a mix of humidity, heat and perhaps salt from our hands when changing lenses that might casue the "miscommunication" with the lens and body.

If that may be the case, what kind of weather was it? And do you mount the lenses before every shoot? I'm thinking maybe it might be a good idea to always have the lenses on the bodies and find better bags to fit them instead of having to risk oxidation on the metal parts, etc.

[tim]

Darn, I'll have to keep an eye on my 20D with grip at the wedding coming up.

And really, I don't see too much distortion with my 5D using the 24-70 near the 70 end. The 50 and 85 are amazing on the 5D. I can't do a portrait without one of those two lenses on the 5D these days. I never put the 17-40 on the 5D because that's when the distortion is too much for me. Otherwise, I don't notice. The quality of the full RAW captures is enough for me to stick with the 5D. PP isn't so time consuming, but you are great at that with the 20D's.

My comments are about the 5D with the 24-105 F4L. Anything less than 35mm with people on the edge of the image isn't acceptable to me. Very sharp combo though.

Nope not used a 30D, it's the same as a 20D really, just a bigger screen. I wouldn't bother upgrading to anything short of a 1 series.

[tim]

Tim, it sucks major to read what happend to you. Keep us posted on what might be the reason. As you say you cleaned the contacs on the lenses and camera, it sounds like it might be a mix of humidity, heat and perhaps salt from our hands when changing lenses that might casue the "miscommunication" with the lens and body.

If that may be the case, what kind of weather was it? And do you mount the lenses before every shoot? I'm thinking maybe it might be a good idea to always have the lenses on the bodies and find better bags to fit them instead of having to risk oxidation on the metal parts, etc.

I do think it could be dirty contacts, not sure how though. Temp varied from about 10 degrees to 25 degrees today, changing slowly. One body always has the 17-55 mounted, the other has no lens mounted but gets lenses changed regularly. I never touch the contacts.

Time for bed now, then off for a day or two to relax with the family for easter. After today i'm going to call it a well deserved break.

[Rumjungle]

Well, perhaps you can answer this when you get back. When you say not to use ethanol, do you mean that specific type of alcohol or just alcohols in general? I usually use isopropyl alcohol for cleaning duties.

[song4themoon]

Oh wow, I would have broken out a sweat. Makes me worry about using my 20D's now.

[mmahoney]

Your situation is very unusual to say the least .. two cameras failing at the same time is just bad luck and a situation probably encountered by very few shooters. It is a pros worst nightmare (and a reason I still take a third body along).

And if I'm not mistaken you have another thread about a different failure with the same camera?

What are you doing different from the rest of us who experience generally trouble-free performance from their 20D's? .. are you taking the basic precautions about keeping the rear cap on the lens on while in the bag, and keeping the spare body cap on when not in use or when a lens is not attached?, etc? Not saying you're careless or stupid but in a case where the same body generally gives rock solid performance for the absolute majority of users you should look at all possibilities.

It's common for me to shoot 60-70,000 frames a year on each of my 20D's in demanding professional situations and have yet to experience any failure with the body itself, although I have had a few issues with the grip. So I can't help but think something is unique to you here .. either that or you have some very, very bad luck with your current setup.

I'm not too sure the reliability of the 1D series is any better and if you read some reports they have their issues as well.
Mike

[Bob Charnier]

Please let us know what you find out from Canon. I still use my 20D as my back-up, but also carry my EOS 3 as a back-up for the back-up. Murphy's Law should be the 11th Commandment as far as I am concerned..........

[tim]

What are you doing different from the rest of us who experience generally trouble-free performance from their 20D's? .. are you taking the basic precautions about keeping the rear cap on the lens on while in the bag, and keeping the spare body cap on when not in use or when a lens is not attached?, etc? Not saying you're careless or stupid but in a case where the same body generally gives rock solid performance for the absolute majority of users you should look at all possibilities.

Bad luck I think. Lenses always have end caps on, bodies always have a lens or body cap on. I'll let Canon take a look and report back - in 2-4 weeks I guess.

[davidgr]

Geez Tim, that sounds pretty bad, but glad you were able to recover from it.

Maybe that will teach you, if it ain't broke, don't fix it (ahead of time)! LOL

[mmahoney]

Bad luck I think.

Any sudden temperature or humidity changes? .. batteries in good shape?

[MrsOpie]

wow! your story really scared the crap out of me. I think I'll rent a 2nd body for my first wedding in July. I think a 5D main and then a 20D backup should be just fine. I might even rent a macro lens if I dont purchase one until then.

[JaertX]

Wow...what a bummer! I guess I better send in one 5D at a time and keep them in good shape!

BTW, I know you keep saying not to use ethanol...I have no idea what the "secret ingredient" chemical is in the contact cleaner I use, but it's this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/DeoxIT-Power-Booster-Pen-Contact-Cleaner-Enhancer-NEW_W0QQitemZ110110960732QQihZ001QQcategoryZ294QQc mdZViewItem

so far it seems to work well.

[CyberPet]

Tim, ok.... the temperature doesn't sound like any extremes in any way or the other. Unless it was really humid or something that could mess with the electronical parts.

This proves more than anything that backup's are soo important. And not just a second body, but a third! I'm going to get a third body within the next month or so, in hopes that at least one will always work if two fails.

[sandpiper]

Yes on both. I don't think it's a grip issue, because the cameras both have power, they just refuse to do anything useful like take pictures.

Grips are one of the major causes of err99 problems, particularly non canon branded ones. They still supply power etc but the camera just shows error messages. I've never used a grip on either my 20D or 5D and I've hardly ever had an error show up - only 2 Err99s on the 20D (in around 70,000 actuations) and none on the 5D (around 20,000 actuations). Both times with the 20D, I simply switched off and popped the battery out / in again and carried on.

I have known two people who were plagued with such problems and cameras locking up, both used grips and everything was fine once they ditched them. To me, they are simply another potential cause of problems so I steer clear.

There have been a few posters on POTN criticising Canon because they got frequent err99s, only to be advised about the possible grip problem and tracing everything to the (non-Canon) grips on their cameras. Similarly, independent brand lenses (particularly Sigma) can cause trouble too.

I know that Canon get a bad rep sometimes from people having these problems, but it is often down to non-Canon accessories the photographer is using. I don't put the error free nature of my bodies down to simply luck, although that may well play it's part, I believe it is largely down to only using Canon own brand lenses and no grip.

I have every sympathy for your situation (I've done lots of weddings in the past, so I know the feeling when equipment fails - although I always had sufficient backups). Having read some of your previous posts about these cameras though, you're a braver man than me still relying on them without a third body as backup, even if only an old rebel.

Anyway, I hope that Canon sorts them out for you and gets them back to you in full working order. I think, personally, I would get them fixed and then sell them and buy replacements - it's probably just me, but I need confidence in my equipment and once it's gone I never quite trust it again.

Anyway, congrats on pulling off the result under trying conditions. I hope that these problems are soon behind you.

[cosworth]

....even though I don't actually want a 1 series body right now.

I think you need a 1 series with a newer 20D or a 30D as backup.

[Banbert]

Sounds like a complete nightmare Tim, although sounds like you handled it very well !

I think if it was me I would be trading them in for a couple of 30D's though because it just sounds like you have a couple of bodys that were made on a "Friday afternoon"!

[cdifoto]

Can you say "end of life?"

You shoot a lot Tim. I'm surprised they've lasted you this long.

[Rumjungle]

The real question is, will Tim go with 1d3 x 2?:eek:

[weka2000]

Tim glad you made it through the day. Well handled.

[lil_miss]

Sorry to hear that Tim. Our 20D had similar problems with our Sigma 24-70 lens that we had focussing issues with... since ditching that lens we've had no problems since - i think it was perhaps just an incompatibility thing...

You did well on the day considering :) We have a Canon Pro1 as a third back up in our bag if worst comes to worst!:)

[joeseph]

Ouch Tim, that sounds really nasty. I had a client a few weeks ago that had a Winterm (thin client PC) that wouldn't go and we destroyed three units before we found the external PSU was pumping out twice the normal voltage - don't know if a lens could do damage to a body but it might be worth checking. As with most devices that have problems, get rid of any accessories that aren't needed to prove where the problem is - a body without grip, lens or ext flash should be able to go "click"

[jessiper]

Oh Tim, I would had a hard time not crying when it was all said and done.. I normally hold up really well and stay calm through the critical moments, but break down in my car... that sucks- then I'd be pi**ed. I can't wait to see what you think of the 5D.

No kidding, I'm the same way. :(

[strmrdr]

This is the contact cleaner that you should use...

http://www.lpslabs.com/Products/ElectricalCleaners/electro140.asp

I'v seen it used on 2 million dollar aircraft test equipment with no issues.

[LeesaB]

Yep what Justkatz said...let us know what they said..I am very interested to know what is going on...I can understand one body, but two? something is wrong there...

You did well Tim, under pressure you survived. Great Job!!!

[tim]

Maybe that will teach you, if it ain't broke, don't fix it (ahead of time)! LOL

They were broke - I was trying to fix intermittent lockups.

Any sudden temperature or humidity changes? .. batteries in good shape?

Nope, nope, and yes.

Grips are one of the major causes of err99 problems, particularly non canon branded ones. They still supply power etc but the camera just shows error messages. I've never used a grip on either my 20D or 5D and I've hardly ever had an error show up - only 2 Err99s on the 20D (in around 70,000 actuations) and none on the 5D (around 20,000 actuations). Both times with the 20D, I simply switched off and popped the battery out / in again and carried on.

Interesting. I'll have a go without the grips, but they're going to Canon anyway.

I think you need a 1 series with a newer 20D or a 30D as backup.

I need a reliable camera, I don't want a huge heavy 1 series but i'll get one if I must. The 20D should be reliable, it's not like they're cheap cameras, they're pretty expensive!

[Meaty0]

I was at a wedding last weekend Tim and the photographer used two Fujifilm S3 Pro's. When I asked him about them, he said he was sick of the problems he'd had with his Canon bodies (did not specify which models) and couldn't afford to swap to Nikon. So Fujifilms it was. He's had no troubles so far. It appears you're not the only one having probs. (So far so good with my 20D only one error 99 and that was with a Sigma lens.)

[Mark_48]

And to think there are a few "wedding photographers" that are confident enough to just take just one camera along. I've been lucky with a 20D and 30D not to have had any problems, but I've always packed an Elan 7 film body and a bunch of film in the car as a third contingency backup just in case the worst should ever happen. A malfunction with any of your gear at a wedding is downright scary.

I'm curious about the age of your batteries. Any possibility they've been around a while and may have lost the needed capacity to handle the momentary burst of juice needed by the electronics an IS lens?

[Yella Fella]

talk about challenges and stresses of weddings, seems like you pulled through fine despite a bit of panic tim

[Tish]

I'm sorry to hear about this nightmare, but at least you only lost the one key shot!

Tim, how many frames do you think those 20Ds have gone through at this point? Could it just be end of life for them?

[tim]

And to think there are a few "wedding photographers" that are confident enough to just take just one camera along. I've been lucky with a 20D and 30D not to have had any problems, but I've always packed an Elan 7 film body and a bunch of film in the car as a third contingency backup just in case the worst should ever happen. A malfunction with any of your gear at a wedding is downright scary.

I'm curious about the age of your batteries. Any possibility they've been around a while and may have lost the needed capacity to handle the momentary burst of juice needed by the electronics an IS lens?

Two batteries in a grip, at most a year old. Doubt it's the batteries since once the cameras started working they worked for the rest of the day.

I'm sorry to hear about this nightmare, but at least you only lost the one key shot!

Tim, how many frames do you think those 20Ds have gone through at this point? Could it just be end of life for them?

I didn't lose a key shot, it was an unimportant shot! My best guess is about 25,000 frames with each camera, which is fine I rekon. Canon service can work it out.

[highway0691]

My 5D has locked up on two occasions in the last week. A few days ago it locked up twice on a wedding shoot whilst taking casual shots , luckily not during the ceremony. On both occasions I was using 70 m-200 IS 2.8 L and was focusing at minimum distance at 70mm. I don't know if this had anything to do with it. I've cleaned terminals etc. The 5D is about 18 months old and has had moderate use, it has only started doing this recently (last 10 weeks) I wonder if anyone has a definitive reason why this happens. I'm sure Canon know! So far there have been several theories raised as possibilities to this curse, but does anyone know for sure? It seems this problem is becoming more common, perhaps as this new generation of Canon cameras start to age.

Canon do really have a case to answer for here! It would be good enough for a combined petition or some kind of lobby rep to approach Canon on behalf of many of us. Is this reasonable?

[tim]

With the 70-200 F2.8 IS it can be the camera and lens losing contact - it's a huge heavy lens. Try cleaning the contact and taking all the weight on the lens, if you don't already.

[sandpiper]

I'm sure Canon know! So far there have been several theories raised as possibilities to this curse, but does anyone know for sure? It seems this problem is becoming more common, perhaps as this new generation of Canon cameras start to age.

Canon do really have a case to answer for here! It would be good enough for a combined petition or some kind of lobby rep to approach Canon on behalf of many of us. Is this reasonable?

No, it isn't reasonable. It isn't a common problem and is usually due to something mounted on the camera, or user error, rather than the camera itself. The last couple of people on here who started cursing Canon and calling for a petition / lobby (and in one case a mass legal action) eventually traced the problem to either a non-Canon branded grip, or a Sigma lens that was causing the problems, so it was s*d all to do with Canon.

It isn't an age thing, both yours and Tim's sound quite lightly used. My 20D has far more shots on it than both of Tim's combined, but has only ever given me 2 err99 lockups in around 70,000 shots. Both were seemingly down to battery contact problems and simply popping the battery out and in again had me up and running again within 30 seconds on each occasion. My 5D has at least 20,000 shots on it (possibly 30,000) and has never missed a beat.

You don't describe the lockup you suffered, just that they were at minimum focusing distance. Was it an err99 or some other code, or did the camera just not fire? If the latter, were you too close to get a focus lock? If the camera cannot acheive focus it won't shoot, I get this with my 100-400L sometimes. Even though it looks in focus in the VF it won't fire, but stepping back a little it can acheive a lock and starts working again.

Also, another possibility is that the lens isn't quite mounted properly, as Tim mentions it is a big lump and needs to be locked positively. I had problems with my 100-400L the first time out with it (brand new lens on brand new 20D), no error codes but refusing to fire regardless what I pointed it at (it focused fine but wouldn't trip the shutter). This happened three times that first day, it would work OK for a while then lockup. Each time, removing and replacing the lens fixed the problem. My first thought was that I had a duff camera or lens and to take them back for replacement, I decided to persevere with them and never had another problem. I always make sure that I give the lens a very positive twist into the locking position now and the problem has never recurred. I never count these in my 'camera glitches' as I am sure it was user error of a newbie with the camera.

Do you take the weight of the lens in your hand when shooting? As Tim suggests, the weight could be enough to just affect the contact.

Although these problem 'cameras' do seem to crop up quite a bit on here, that doesn't mean that it is a common problem, and in most cases it isn't actually the camera at fault anyway. In the real world, I know (and meet) a lot of Canon users but I have only ever met two who had regular problems with lockups. Both of those were fixed when they threw away the non-Canon grips they were using. We all get an occasional err99 but that isn't a faulty camera, just something that isn't quite contacting correctly, usually fixed very quickly.

I am confused by Tim's case though, it is very unusual for one camera to behave like that and I haven't heard of another case where somebody has two giving that many problems. I feel that it is still probable that it is 'something' to do with Tim (either his grips, the way he mounts his lenses or cleans the contacts or something else really obscure), but it could just be that he is seriously unlucky. Have you tried to see if you can recreate the problem with the grips off yet, Tim?

Either way, I won't be taking on betting tips from you ;)

[SuzyView]

I'm shooting a wedding next weekend and using the 20D with grip. I have never had lock up before on any of my Canons or an error message. Some of my batteries are over a year old. I'm waiting to hear what Tim gets back from Canon for why his equipment had issues at the same time. I'm thinking the planets were not aligned right at the spot where Tim was shooting and that threw off the electromagnetic charges on his contacts that caused the error 99 message and the lockup ;)

Okay, I know nothing. I'll wait till Tim tells us what the experts say. ;):)

[tim]

I am confused by Tim's case though, it is very unusual for one camera to behave like that and I haven't heard of another case where somebody has two giving that many problems. I feel that it is still probable that it is 'something' to do with Tim (either his grips, the way he mounts his lenses or cleans the contacts or something else really obscure), but it could just be that he is seriously unlucky. Have you tried to see if you can recreate the problem with the grips off yet, Tim?

Only common thing that's not typical for me is cleaning the camera/lens contacts with Ethanol, but should be ok. Will report back, could be a month before I get my gear back going on Canon NZ's recent performance.

[sandpiper]

I have never had lock up before on any of my Canons or an error message.

Do you realise how many fates you have just tempted, saying that ;)

[SuzyView]

Good thing you have back-up plans, since this is your busy season.

[SuzyView]

Do you realise how many fates you have just tempted, saying that ;)

I know that. I'm hoping if I said it out loud, I can start an exciting thread like Tim's ;)

[highway0691]

You don't describe the lockup you suffered, just that they were at minimum focusing distance. Was it an err99 or some other code, or did the camera just not fire? If the latter, were you too close to get a focus lock?
No I'm familiar with the focus lock/hunting situation. Even after adjusting the focal length etc, it still wouldn't work.
Do you take the weight of the lens in your hand when shooting?
Because it is like a brick I do hold the lens. It also has happened twice on my little 17-40L
Although these problem 'cameras' do seem to crop up quite a bit on here, that doesn't mean that it is a common problem, and in most cases it isn't actually the camera at fault anyway. In the real world, I know (and meet) a lot of Canon users but I have only ever met two who had regular problems with lockups. Both of those were fixed when they threw away the non-Canon grips they were using.
In my experiences of late I am hearing about this more often and know someone else with the same problem. Have never used camera grips or non-Canon lenses, all canon gear.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Canon Lover and have put many a people onto Canon cameras. When you're in the middle of a wedding and your camera freezes it does test your loyalty to Canon and your own marriage. The thought of having to take three camera bodies along seems absurd. I telephoned Canon a while back and spoke to a technician about this but he was a bit vague about the reason. I just would like Canon to make a statement on the issue. Can't wait to hear what Tim finds out!

Cheers Damian

[DocFrankenstein]

Were there any speakers around you?
A microwave?
Any new equipment?

Double failure is unlikely all by itself.

[tim]

No, no, no. Only thing different is me cleaning the contacts with pure alcohol. I'm stumped. Cameras are with Canon will report back when I have more information.

[Banbert]

Were there any speakers around you?
A microwave?
Any new equipment?

Double failure is unlikely all by itself.

I think given the failures he has reported previously it was actually inevitable he would have a double failure at some point without any particular outside influences, only thing I am surprised about is that he tolerated them playing up as long as he did, from what I have read elsewhere and experienced myself failures arent that common.

Be very interesting to hear what canon says about it.

[tim]

Never had anything like this happen before, they would occasionally misbehave but on a very small scale. Definitely getting a 30D to see how the reliability of that is, if it's ok i'll dump the 20Ds and go to two 30Ds and consider 1DMk3 later in the year.

[Banbert]

Never had anything like this happen before, they would occasionally misbehave but on a very small scale. Definitely getting a 30D to see how the reliability of that is, if it's ok i'll dump the 20Ds and go to two 30Ds and consider 1DMk3 later in the year.


Just going by what you have said in previous threads, I know youve been able to revive them previously but its still strange that its was happening as often as you said it was happening I think. Are your grips canon grips tim or third party ?

Not had a single lock up with either rof my 30D's although probably not used them as much as you have yet but they will get a lot of stick this summer, my mate I shoot with has a 30D and a 20D so it will be interesting to see if he has any problems this summer as well.

[tim]

All Canon cameras, grips, and lenses. Money isn't really an issue when it comes to getting reliable equipment. Maybe i'm unlucky but two failures at once makes the seem unlikely.

[RobKirkwood]

I have a suspicion that the 20D has changed or evolved slightly during its lifespan.

Last year we shot with 350D, 20D and 30D - the 20D was bought new December 2005, and the 30D bought new June 2006. Both are fitted with Canon BG-E2 grips, again both grips bought new Feb 2006 and June 2006. We've had zero problems with these combinations (apart from operator error).

We've just picked up 2 more 20D's to tide us over while we decide where we're going to upgrade to ...these 20D's are older than our original one - and one of them has just had new shutter from Fixation.

We also picked up a 3rd party battery grip from ebay (turned out to be a Jenis) to see if we could save money by not buying 1 or 2 more BG-E2's. After some metal-fettling on the poor quality Jenis grip, we finally got it to fit and work properly on our original 30D and 20D ...it flexes a little too much for our liking at the battery end, but not enough to lose power or cause problems (won't be using it though).

On the older 20D's this same grip is unreliable - flex the grip and they lose power ...plus the older 20D which hasn't been repaired will flash its CF light every 30 seconds or so whenever this grip is fitted (They don't behave this way when fitted with one of our newer Canon BG-E2's).

I haven't had time to do any more checking on what's going on here ...but there's clearly some difference between the 2x 20D's which date from 2004, and our other one which dates from 2005. Maybe it's a physical difference, maybe the circuitry was tweaked (remember the early 5D's that couldn't have an issue resolved with firmware upgrade?).

If I find out any more I'll post about it - but don't hold your breath as it's low priority for me right now.

[edit: serial numbers on our older 20D's start with a "0", our newer 20D starts with a "1"]

Rob

[tim]

Thanks Rob, and my 20D serial numbers all start with 0...

[wilky95]

For what its worth my 30d was purchased in june last year and I have never had a problem with it and coming up to 17,000 shots.

Martin

[mmahoney]

For what its worth my 30d was purchased in june last year and I have never had a problem with it and coming up to 17,000 shots.
Martin

:D FWIW my 20D #1 has close to 70,000 without a single problem (aside from the usual BG-E2 grip issues) and #2 has close to 20,000.

My now retired to backup role 20D refuses to tell us her exact age, but I know it's over 100,000 :D

Most 20D's are used by prosumers and seldom see high shutter counts, but I'd expect over 100,000 clicks before any significant issues are encountered due to age.

They are quite simply a stone cold reliable tool in the hands of most users .. the experience posted here by the OP is anything but normal.
Mike

[RobKirkwood]

Most 20D's are used by prosumers and seldom see high shutter counts, but I'd expect over 100,000 clicks before any significant issues are encountered due to age.One of the older 20D's we recently bought had failed with permanent ERR99 and required a new shutter at 79,000 clicks.

Rob

[Titus213]

Mad scramble to check serial number on the 20D and it starts with '1'. I've had a couple of minor lock-ups with the 20D that were fixed by taking the battery out for a second.

The 300D is still going like a trooper though.

I threw an old film body in the bag for the last shoot - just in case......perahps I'll keep it there.

[Banbert]

Think I tempted fate with comments in this thread.! At our wedding last weekend we got there on the Friday night and met the B&G and friends down the local pub where they were doing some Bridesmaids and Groomsmens gift exchanges which we had taken our cameras to cover. Pretty much as soon as we started shooting my mates 30D locked up with err 99 on it. It didnt have a grip on it at the time and the body only has 5,000 actuations on it.

He had used the camera for a while previously and not had any issues with it only thing he had changed that day was that he had fitted a new lens to it (17-55 f2.8 IS). Removal of battery and refit of lens seemed to solve the problem and the camera was working again, least it was a for a while until it locked up again. The other thing that diddnt seem to be working was that the flash (580EX) didnt seem to be picking up any ETTL info. We swapped a few things about, my lens on his body, his lens on my body, swapped flashes over, wiped down contacts etc but the one thing that seemed to be constant was that his was the body that locked up.

He continued to have problems with it all weekend and its now gone back to the shop and were trying to get it replaced under warranty as its quite new.

It was only our second wedding so this caused us a bit of stress but we have 2 bodies each so although it wasnt ideal we were still able to cope with the failure quite well, having said that I can see that we may end up buying another body anyway so that we have 5 between us and this will also mean a couple less lens changes during the day as we can leave the other body with a macro or UWA/Fisheye on it.

[Jono A]

It is not always the body that is at fault. Recently my 30D, with a 17-55 2.8 IS on it, regularly locked up on a wedding shoot. It worked fine with my 70-200. It turned out to be a fault with the IS assembly in the lens. We talk about backups for cameras all the time, but I think lens backups are just as important! John.

[tim]

Hey, the two lenses on the bodies that locked up were the 70-200 F2.8 IS and the 17-55 F2.8 IS - the 50mm F1.4 (non IS) was the one I could get working...

[Banbert]

We swapped lenses about and it didnt seem to make a jot of difference, still got lock ups with a 70-200 F4L, 50mm F1.4 and 2 diff 17-55 F2.8 IS on it ... still same result ... I guess the error code covers a multitude of sins as its not really the cause its just the problem isnt it.

[tim]

An update: Canon took one month to repair my 20d, but they also cleaned and calibrated 3 lenses, replaced a part in the 50mm F1.4 (which I thought was fine anyway), and replaced part in the 70-200 calibrated the IS unit. It took them 3-4 hours, some of it under warranty.

At the wedding yesterday the 17-55 IS unit failed intermittently. Instead of stabilising the lens, it made it rapidly oscillate and so was useless with IS on. I used it with IS off fine though. Back to Canon it goes, and i'm not going to be quite as nice this time.

[Toogy]

Tim, is this the first time the IS has failed on the 17-55? I had mine replaced earlier this year, and I know Lloyd has had the IS unit on his replaced, just wondering if I should look forward to it failing again... wonderful lens, just the build quality sort of sucks!

[tim]

Yes, first time, it worked fine before Canon disassembled it, so I suspect poor workmanship. It worked fine Saturday, wasn't dropped or anything, Sunday it failed. I'll let you know what Canon say. I'll call them tomorrow and tell them it's on the way back and I want it back by Friday, even though I don't actually have a wedding for a few weeks.

[picturecrazy]

Hahaha, my 17-55 is in with canon right now too. I've been noticing that focus is just a slight bit off since they replaced the IS motor. (And I get more CA) It's out of warranty and also out of the 3 month repair warranty, but they admitted they messed up and they're repairing it for free anyways.

I just hope they can get it as RAZOR sharp as it was when I first bought it. It was insanely sharp and no CA.

[David John]

This is exactly why weddings should NOT be shot with the cheaper DSLR's. If I had a nickle for every story I've heard about "prosumer" level bodies blowing up I'd be rich. The 5D should be the minimum requirement for a serious wedding photog. A 30D would make an acceptable back-up, but you should have at least one professional body (1Ds, 5D etc). Try giving a bride a quality enlargement to hang over her mantle from your 300D.

Anyone showing up to MY wedding with a Rebel had better be a guest, or heads would roll.

[tim]

Who's using a 300D? Not anyone I know. That's an old camera, nowhere near good enough for weddings these days.

I've made fantastic 20x30" enlargements from my 20D and 30D, I don't see the 1 series as having any real advantage there. I specifically don't want full frame as I hate the distortion at the edges at wide angles. I know people with 1 series cameras and they tell me they still do the same things on occasion. I'm pondering the 1D3 for later this year though, but I may just get another 30D as 1 series are big and heavy and I don't want that.

[David John]

Who's using a 300D? <snip>

Sorry...it was supposed to read "350D", but you get the point.

[mcmadkat]

Formation of Acetic Acid by Aqueous-Phase Oxidation of Ethanol with Air in the Presence of a Heterogeneous Gold Catalyst

That basically sums up what was going on. You cleaned the contacts with ethanol, this oxidises to produce ethanoic acid, (which buggers up the electrical conductivity).

Having gold contacts seems to speed up the reaction. As both bodies failed at roughly the same time, this seems the most likely explanation. The oxidation process had reached the point of creating an electrical resistance which stopped the lenses working.

So, don't use ethanol!

Cheers,

Sam

[DocFrankenstein]

This is exactly why weddings should NOT be shot with the cheaper DSLR's. If I had a nickle for every story I've heard about "prosumer" level bodies blowing up I'd be rich. The 5D should be the minimum requirement for a serious wedding photog. A 30D would make an acceptable back-up, but you should have at least one professional body (1Ds, 5D etc). Try giving a bride a quality enlargement to hang over her mantle from your 300D.

Anyone showing up to MY wedding with a Rebel had better be a guest, or heads would roll.
What a narrow-minded forum we have here. :rolleyes:

I wonder how they managed to do it with medium format.


Try giving a bride a quality enlargement to hang over her mantle from your 300D.
You can't produce a high quality enlargment from a 6 mp crop camera? Or was that supposed to read 8 megapixels?

[Mario.]

What a narrow-minded forum we have here. :rolleyes:

I wonder how they managed to do it with medium format.



You can't produce a high quality enlargment from a 6 mp crop camera? Or was that supposed to read 8 megapixels?

No kidding. Some really really closed-minded people here..

[tim]

Formation of Acetic Acid by Aqueous-Phase Oxidation of Ethanol with Air in the Presence of a Heterogeneous Gold Catalyst

That basically sums up what was going on. You cleaned the contacts with ethanol, this oxidises to produce ethanoic acid, (which buggers up the electrical conductivity).

Having gold contacts seems to speed up the reaction. As both bodies failed at roughly the same time, this seems the most likely explanation. The oxidation process had reached the point of creating an electrical resistance which stopped the lenses working.

So, don't use ethanol!

Thanks for the info Sam, it's much appreciated to know what really happened :)

[mcmadkat]

No probs mate! Just goes to show that cameras and alcohol don't mix ;)

[Mark_48]

Formation of Acetic Acid by Aqueous-Phase Oxidation of Ethanol with Air in the Presence of a Heterogeneous Gold Catalyst

So, don't use ethanol!

Cheers,

Sam

And this stuff is going my car :shock:

[Jono A]

Yup, my 17-55 IS 2.8 had to go back to Canon Australia for a new IS assembly. The lens was locking up my 30D giving "Error 99". It then came back with the barrel gasket ring breaking up and coming out the front of the barrel. I then noticed that they had turned it into a 22-55mm! At least that's where the lower stop mark now goes to. As it was in the middle of the season I didn't have time to send it back for a third time, so its only just going back now. When this lens works it truly is awesome, but man I could do without the hassle !

[JustKat]

I have 22 x 28 canvas print wraps that were taken by me with 3 different cameras - 350D, 30D, 5D and you cannot see any less quality in any. If you have a good lens, take a good image and use a good lab you shouldn't have any problem.

[JustKat]

By the way Tim, thanks for keeping us posted.

[DocFrankenstein]

Thanks for the info Sam, it's much appreciated to know what really happened :)
Were you in a hypobaric chamber at about 150C and half atmospheric pressure at the time?

And I don't mean figuratively.

[subtle_spectre]

This is exactly why weddings should NOT be shot with the cheaper DSLR's. If I had a nickle for every story I've heard about "prosumer" level bodies blowing up I'd be rich. The 5D should be the minimum requirement for a serious wedding photog. A 30D would make an acceptable back-up, but you should have at least one professional body (1Ds, 5D etc). Try giving a bride a quality enlargement to hang over her mantle from your 300D.

Anyone showing up to MY wedding with a Rebel had better be a guest, or heads would roll.


I've got a 20D that has well over 50K shots on it and has been well-used and abused through over 30 weddings. It is my favorite body still and the one I use as primary. I also have a 30D and a 350D.

I formerly used a 1D and a 1DMkIIN for wedding work...the bodies are nice and I love many of the features, but the image quality of the 1D2N did not equal that of the 20D and did not come close to the 30D. Why? I have no idea and don't care...it saved me thousands of dollars knowing I can use a 1200.00 prosumer body and good glass to provide quality results to clients versus 3500+ on the 1D series.

Moreover, I routinely sell enlargements produced from my camers...they are all 8mp, as is the 1D2N, so how can it matter?

The 5D intrigues me and may be my next body...I have no experience with it. Your opinions, perhaps well intentioned and surely genuine, seem misguided.

[mizuno]

This is exactly why weddings should NOT be shot with the cheaper DSLR's. If I had a nickle for every story I've heard about "prosumer" level bodies blowing up I'd be rich. The 5D should be the minimum requirement for a serious wedding photog. A 30D would make an acceptable back-up, but you should have at least one professional body (1Ds, 5D etc). Try giving a bride a quality enlargement to hang over her mantle from your 300D.

Snob. :p

[DocFrankenstein]

the image quality of the 1D2N did not equal that of the 20D and did not come close to the 30D. Why? I have no idea and don't care...
Love it :lol:

[mizuno]

I suppose Joey Lawrence (http://www.joeyl.com/)is a poor photographer because much of his work was done using a point and shoot.

[sapearl]

'Tis a fine body indeed. If you pick it up and try it out, you may find it hard to put down ;) .

............The 5D intrigues me and may be my next body...I have no experience with it. Your opinions, perhaps well intentioned and surely genuine, seem misguided.

[Eoseni]

I suppose Joey Lawrence (http://www.joeyl.com/)is a poor photographer because much of his work was done using a point and shoot.

wow. good stuff there. Get me that point and shoot and all those lights or whatever he uses to get his look....

[sapearl]

Wow! That's one hekuva' nice point and shoot he must be using there... quite a web show he's got running.

I suppose Joey Lawrence (http://www.joeyl.com/)is a poor photographer because much of his work was done using a point and shoot.

[esannicolas1953]

Tim,

I had the same problem with my Canon XT 350. This problem started when I started using a generic brand name battery grip for my camera. I was also using a Sunpack Flash 5000 designed for my camera (compatible) and was getting a a ERR 99 and you also mention 00 on your aperture reading. My solution to this problem was, stay with the name brand accessories as mention above. I also noticed that my Sunpack Flash unit was effecting my camera when I use a len with image stablizer such as my 28-135mm and I order the Canon 430EX and it solve that problem. Non-IS lens was not effected when use. So, for all users, be aware that even thou we are on a budget and maybe save some money, in the long run I would stay with the Camera name brand accessories. I hope this will help you out in identifying your problem as similar to mine in the middle of a wedding ceremony. I'm also a wedding photographer and I did the same thing you did with the cloth to clean my contact. Wish you well.....

[tim]

Thanks for the thoughts, all my gear is Canon, like you say it's not worth the risk especially when photography is what pays the bills.

[Gujustud]

I've got a 20D and this has happened about 2-5 times on me so far. Twice during a event shoot, but never during a wedding. But hearing this scares me, and as much as I want a second 20D to shoot with, I'm thinking i'd rather go 1series.

[tim]

Your camera has failed 5 times and you still only have one? That doesn't seem smart to me. My 30D seems more reliable, it's never missed a beat. I'll probably get another 30D some time, or perhaps a 1D3, i've not decided yet. The larger screen is really, really useful, far more useful than I thought.

I think this problem was me cleaning the contacts with ethanol, though there were intermittent problems before that.

[lil_miss]

I suppose Joey Lawrence (http://www.joeyl.com/)is a poor photographer because much of his work was done using a point and shoot.

Apparently he uses a 5D now....

[mizuno]

Err it says on his website he uses a 5D....... :lol:

He does now.

He started with a point and shoot. Many of the shots in his portfolio are from that original camera.

[cosworth]

Please. A backup body isn't needed to shoot homeless people. They'll be there tomorrow, the wedding won't. Studio work? Wait 20 minutes, I gotta run to the store and get another camera.

Invalid argument.

[tim]

Please. A backup body isn't needed to shoot homeless people. They'll be there tomorrow, the wedding won't. Studio work? Wait 20 minutes, I gotta run to the store and get another camera.

Invalid argument.

Who are you talking to? Don't forget this is the wedding forum, it's reasonable to assume people here shoot weddings, which is a profession not a game or hobby.

[mcmadkat]

Were you in a hypobaric chamber at about 150C and half atmospheric pressure at the time?

And I don't mean figuratively.

lol mate I only have GCSE chemistry, just a thoery. But, being a mechanical/electrical engineer, you have to analyse the changes that had been made to cause a simulateous failure. They only thing he did differently was to clean the contacts with ethanol.

Incidently a chap I know who does model trains told me not to clean the wheels with ethanol as it would degrade the electrical conductivity, who am to argue? ;)

[DocFrankenstein]

lol mate I only have GCSE chemistry, just a thoery. But, being a mechanical/electrical engineer, you have to analyse the changes that had been made to cause a simulateous failure. They only thing he did differently was to clean the contacts with ethanol.

Incidently a chap I know who does model trains told me not to clean the wheels with ethanol as it would degrade the electrical conductivity, who am to argue? ;)
Well... the chap doesn't know what he's talking about. Alcohol (albeit pure "electrical grade alcohol" is used routinely to clean electronics contacts.

If he cleaned the contacts with "dirty" alcohol, then it might've shorted them.

[sapearl]

I always used a mildly abrasive pencil eraser for my kid's HO set. The same thing worked well for the electrical components on my old Metz connectors and batteries. You have to be careful though to blow out all the eraser "crumbs." ;)

......
Incidently a chap I know who does model trains told me not to clean the wheels with ethanol as it would degrade the electrical conductivity, who am to argue? ;)

[Croasdail]

Well... the chap doesn't know what he's talking about. Alcohol (albeit pure "electrical grade alcohol" is used routinely to clean electronics contacts.

If he cleaned the contacts with "dirty" alcohol, then it might've shorted them.

Well, back in the day when I was in college I worked for a high tech reworking circuit boards for their beta test group. We were told to never use any alcohol on anything that my have flux or brass - it leaves behind a film and actually makes things worse. Never really understood it because I thought the alcohol would evaperate leaving a perfectly clean surface, but that wasn't the case. Perhaps someone else can lend some help to this as well.

The Joey Lawrence shots are superb. And all that with mostly a Minolta - aka - Sony - go figure. Anyway, nice link. I am going to pass it onto my sons buddy who leaves in a few weeks to study photojournalism at University of Hawaii.

[David John]

Snob. :p
That's "Mr Snob" to you, pal. Now if you don't mind, I have a wedding to shoot using my Canon Elph and a Coleman lantern because I'm talented and I dont need high-end equipment...nor do my clients.

[Mark_48]

Tim, Per chance might you have been sippin' a bit of the ethanol whilst cleaning those contacts?........

[David John]

<snip>

I formerly used a 1D and a 1DMkIIN for wedding work...the bodies are nice and I love many of the features, but the image quality of the 1D2N did not equal that of the 20D and did not come close to the 30D. Why? I have no idea and don't care...it saved me thousands of dollars knowing I can use a 1200.00 prosumer body and good glass to provide quality results to clients versus 3500+ on the 1D series.

<snip>

Your opinions, perhaps well intentioned and surely genuine, seem misguided.

I believe your answer is misguided, sir. I never said you couldn't get a good photo with a 20D, I was trying to point out that the shutter mechanisms of cheaper DSLR's are not built to withstand what the more expensive DSLR's are. If you have a back-up body (or two, in the case of the original post) and you don't need quality enlargements over 11x14, then using a 10D or 20D is not a problem.

[tim]

Tim, Per chance might you have been sippin' a bit of the ethanol whilst cleaning those contacts?........

Nope, not sipping anything else either!

[Gujustud]

Your camera has failed 5 times and you still only have one? That doesn't seem smart to me.

Well luckily, I never shoot a wedding without an assistant, and I haven't fully started shooting weddings pro full time (starting my few few in about 2 months). By that point, my goal is to have enough saved up for a 2nd body.

[islandphoto]

I believe your answer is misguided, sir. I never said you couldn't get a good photo with a 20D, I was trying to point out that the shutter mechanisms of cheaper DSLR's are not built to withstand what the more expensive DSLR's are. If you have a back-up body (or two, in the case of the original post) and you don't need quality enlargements over 11x14, then using a 10D or 20D is not a problem. While I agree with you about the importance having a professional DSLR, I would definetely say that you can get GREAT quality enlargements (bigger than 11x14) with the 20D. I have printed up t 20x30 and the quality was outstanding.