Please ...Just answer the OP's question.

[Just Be]

Is it just me or do any of you notice the same thing?

Often I see threads that are hijacked and most replies don't answer the OP''s question.

Example

(OP)"If you own an XTi, can you tell me what you like about it? I'm thinking of getting one."

(reply) "I love my 30D... with L glass."

(reply) "L glass isn't for everyone. I like Sigma lenses."

(reply) "Sigma? If you are a serious photographer, you need Canon glass L or not, if you have a Canon DSLR."

(OP) "Still would like to hear from anyone who (actually owns an XTi) to tell me about their experience.

(reply) "My friend has an XTi, not sure if he likes it or not."

Nuff said? ;)

[squashed]

What kind of flash do you have?

[neil_r]

42.

[cosworth]

You're new to the internet aren't you?

[Just Be]

Thanks guys!
Just the kind of mature responses I was expecting. :lol:

[Glenn NK]

Hey - we like to show off our knowledge - whether it's useful or not.:lol:

[Ronald S. Jr.]

So what's the weather like up there?

[thekid24]

Yup, its a common thing on these threads. There isnt one thread that has kept to the main question at hand. There is always someone that will throw it off topic. You know how funny it would be if we were to play the old childhood game of telephone? I doubt it would make it past 4 people.

But dont let it frustrate you, it is the nature of the beast. So many members its bound to happen. Every single one of my threads have been like that, you just hope some are able to answer the question at hand:p

[rklepper]

Ah, now there is an answer worth hearing. Took quite some time to come to though, eh?



42.

[Livinthalife]

after reading all the off topic replies I forgot what to say to the OP :)

[ajbalazic]

Sometimes it makes for interesting reading though. Makes you wonder if some people even read past the topic!

[saravrose]

I saw some barns today I need to go shoot.. the light was all wrong today unfortunately..

(just figure i'd keep this thread consistent)..

sari

[CRE@TE]

I like kittens!

[Ronald S. Jr.]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just bought an XTi...what lens should I get?

[timbernet]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just bought an XTi...what lens should I get?

Nothing less than a 600mm f/4..

[Belmondo]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just bought an XTi...what lens should I get?600 f/4L. You'll get an effective 960mm telephoto.

Cool topic.



What are we talking about?

[Ronald S. Jr.]

I'll order that 600 soon.

How's the IQ on the Opteka 650-1300? Will I be able to shoot my son's basketball game with it, or should I use a flash? Can this lens do ok without flash? If not, I still have the onboard flash on the XTi, so I should be covered, right?

[timbernet]

I'll order that 600 soon.

How's the IQ on the Opteka 650-1300? Will I be able to shoot my son's basketball game with it, or should I use a flash? Can this lens do ok without flash? If not, I still have the onboard flash on the XTi, so I should be covered, right?

I don't know how to answer the Opteka, but glass is glass right? Your onboard flash will do just fine - think of all the good justs people get with the built-in flash on their point and shoots...

[R_Metzel]

Most of the time I don't mind a thread getting hijacked. I do it myself sometimes. Most of the time it still pertains to the OP in someway. Other times, even if it isn't my thread, I let someone know they need to quit because it gets really annoying sometimes. I guess it is just the old Mod in me trying to break free again! :lol:

[Woolburr]

Personally, I think that N*k*n glass is over-rated for use in ovenware.

[Belmondo]

Most of the time I don't mind a thread getting hijacked. Most of the time it still pertains to the OP in someway. Other times, even if it isn't my thread, I let someone know they need to quite because it gets really annoying sometimes. I guess it is just the old Mod in me trying to break free again! :lol:Did somebody say 'old mod?'

I'm an old mod.

[R_Metzel]

Did somebody say 'old mod?'

I'm an old mod.
:lol::lol:
Your only as old as you feel.;) Think old, and you shall be old! Think young, and you might be able to pick up a 50 year old!:p:lol:

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Oh come now. All he has to do is put his piece on, and he can get 'em into the 40's. Some women like the "father figure" type.

[CyberDyneSystems]

To the OP,

Are you walking to school, or packing a lunch?

[CyberDyneSystems]

:lol::lol:
Your only as old as you feel.;) ...


Yes, most of us feel tom is very old....

[Woolburr]

To the OP,

Are you walking to school, or packing a lunch?

Up hill both ways, 20 degrees below zero...no shoes!

[thekid24]

Well I say what good is the milk if the 300 prime can do what most cannot without those who think a mouse isnt to bright to take the cheese? I mean seriously...think about it.

[R_Metzel]

Up hill both ways, 20 degrees below zero...no shoes!
What about the skirt?

[Ronald S. Jr.]

back on topic, though.

I decided to go with nikon because it was black so I figured it would go faster.

I took this shot using my opteka glass. I can't figure out why it came out so dark. Can someone help? Maybe you can edit it? I used a fast shutter speed so it wouldn't be blurred.

Here's the settings:

f/11, ISO 200 (I raised it from 100 so it wouldn't be underexposed ??? ), 1/8000, 1000mm.162206

HELP??? I have a wedding to shoot tomorrow!

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Up hill both ways, 20 degrees below zero...no shoes!

in the dead of winter, year round.

[theflyingkiwi]

Did somebody say 'old mod?'

I'm an old mod.

shhh, i'm hunting wabits

it's duck hunting season don't ya know.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I think this thread was OT for the Chat forum..:confused:

[cfpackerfan]

Cincinnati. Definitely. I don't know why you would even consider anything else.

[PhotoJourno]

"There is a pleasure in the pathless woods,
There is a rapture on the lonely shore,
There is society, where none intrudes,
By the deep sea, and music in its roar:
I love not man the less, but Nature more,
From these our interviews, in which I steal
From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can never express, yet cannot all conceal."

-Lord Byron, Childe Harolde

[RTMiller]

Please... just answer the OP's question.
I agree whole-heartedly. Now, what was the OP's question again?

[sblais]

I agree whole-heartedly. Now, what was the OP's question again?

Something about lenses.

[peacock]

Yes I have notice the same thing !

see this thread for a perfect example
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=302292

[sblais]

Don't you just hate it when people just link to other threads instead of giving actual information?

[peacock]

Don't you just hate it when people just link to other threads instead of giving actual information?

:lol:
I answered the question !!! and provided an example:p

[Steve Parr]

I like ice cream...

[Jim7226]

Very informative thread. The responses have offered me so much more information than I originally thought I would get with the OP's initial question.;)

[RTMiller]

Very informative thread....;)
I think this thread should be a Sticky.

[Woolburr]

Did you sharpen that with USM or some other method? I think your saturation should be tweaked.

[red hot sheep]

What's brown and sticky?

A stick.

[sblais]

What's brown and double sticky?

A sticky stick!

[thomascanty]

Nice duck. Thanks for sharing.

[gjl711]

Am I witnessing the birth of a totally random thread? OP, can you post a pic? It would help us understand. And, if your friend already has a XTi, just ask them.

[Radtech1]

Is it just me or do any of you notice the same thing?...Nuff said? ;)

Who's "Nuff"? Why should we listen to him?

[gjl711]

Who's "Nuff"? Why should we listen to him? Obviously, Nuff is his friend with the XTi... ;)

[sblais]

Is it just me or do any of you notice the same thing?

I would have been better if you would have made this thread with a poll.

This way, we could get into poll smoking ;)

[R_Metzel]

I would have been better if you would have made this thread with a poll.

This way, we could get into poll smoking ;)
:shock::shock::lol:

[BearSummer]

Is it just me or do any of you notice the same thing?

Often I see threads that are hijacked and most replies don't answer the OP''s question.

Example

(OP)"If you own an XTi, can you tell me what you like about it? I'm thinking of getting one."

(reply) "I love my 30D... with L glass."

(reply) "L glass isn't for everyone. I like Sigma lenses."

(reply) "Sigma? If you are a serious photographer, you need Canon glass L or not, if you have a Canon DSLR."

(OP) "Still would like to hear from anyone who (actually owns an XTi) to tell me about their experience.

(reply) "My friend has an XTi, not sure if he likes it or not."

Nuff said? ;)

It's a very good attempt but I think the background is distracting, try it in LAB.

regards

BearSummer

[20droger]

42.
I agree with the answer, but What's the Question? And no, it isn't "How many roads must a man walk down?"

[20droger]

Did somebody say 'old mod?'

I'm an old mod.
Not you! Say it ain't so!

[Radtech1]

Obviously, Nuff is his friend with the XTi... ;)

Here is an XR4Ti, is that close enough?

http://www.spencer1984.com/image/m223a.jpg

[20droger]

What is the zoom on that thing?

[Radtech1]

What is the zoom on that thing?

1/24

[BearSummer]

Here is an XR4Ti, is that close enough?

http://www.spencer1984.com/image/m223a.jpg

Is it better cos it's got a red ring?

[red hot sheep]

You need to straighten your horizon.

[Jon]

42.

I agree with the answer, but What's the Question? And no, it isn't "How many roads must a man walk down?"
"What do you get when you multiply 6x9?". Since this equation only works out correctly in base 13, obvioously the human experience is flawed and we can never know the meaning of life except indirectly.

[20droger]

"What do you get when you multiply 6x9?". Since this equation only works out correctly in base 13, obvioously the human experience is flawed and we can never know the meaning of life except indirectly.
Well, what do you expect from a buch of ape-descendent beings?

Perhaps YOU have 13 fingers... I'm limited to a mere 10.

[jamesdean007]

I would have been better if you would have made this thread with a poll.



Yeah, polls rock. Speaking of rocks, I want to eat some Pop Rocks.

[F/M Bill]

What is the zoom on that thing?

Shouldn't it be what is the zoom-zoom-zoom on that thing? :rolleyes:

[saravrose]

yesterday I was giggling.. today i'm concerned.. I think there's another tupperware thread brewing here... Now, how do y'all feel about private property signs when there's a really cool looking barn behind them?... (nobody would notice I was there)..

sari

[20droger]

Shouldn't it be what is the zoom-zoom-zoom on that thing? :rolleyes:
Nah! It's a Merkur, not a Mazda. Merkurs don't have "Zoom-Zoom®."

[20droger]

yesterday I was giggling.. today i'm concerned.. I think there's another tupperware thread brewing here... Now, how do y'all feel about private property signs when there's a really cool looking barn behind them?... (nobody would notice I was there)..

sari
[enter_serious_mode]

Posted private property is just that. I am firmly against violating someones property rights.

Ask permission first. You might be surprised how often permission would be granted.

[/exit_serious_mode]

[sblais]

"What do you get when you multiply 6x9?". Since this equation only works out correctly in base 13, obvioously the human experience is flawed and we can never know the meaning of life except indirectly.

Best trilogy in five parts ever!

[sblais]

[enter_serious_mode]

Posted private property is just that. I am firmly against violating someones property rights.

Ask permission first. You might be surprised how often permission would be granted.

[/exit_serious_mode]

The moral of the story: don't mess with the law AND Roger. You may mess with the law, but if Roger finds out, he'll chase and/or hunt you down depending on how he feels ;)!

j/k Roger! :lol:

[20droger]

Best trilogy in five parts ever!
Five-and-a-half! Don't forget "Young Zaphod Plays It Safe."

[sblais]

Five-and-a-half! Don't forget "Young Zaphod Plays It Safe."

I guess that counts too ;)

[Jon]

Best trilogy in five parts ever!

Five-and-a-half! Don't forget "Young Zaphod Plays It Safe."

I guess that counts too ;)Yeah. I was going to bring that up . . . Would have sooner, but my fish musta been asleep.

[20droger]

The moral of the story: don't mess with the law AND Roger. You may mess with the law, but if Roger finds out, he'll chase and/or hunt you down depending on how he feels ;)!

j/k Roger! :lol:
"You betchum, Red Rider!" (an unregistered trademark now passed into the public domain under the Copyright Act of 1909).

[gjl711]

Yeah, polls rock. Speaking of rocks, I want to eat some Pop Rocks. Pop rocks and diet Coke is the bomb..... burp!!!

...Now, how do y'all feel about private property signs when there's a really cool looking barn behind them?... (nobody would notice I was there)..

sariSign... sign... everywhere a sign... blocking out the scenery and breaking my mind..

The moral of the story: don't mess with the law.. I fought the law and the law won.

[Jaime]

Yeah, polls rock. Speaking of rocks, I want to eat some Pop Rocks.


It seems to me that every newbie sooner or later discover polls, and then they have to try one, never mind what it is they are polling or whether it has any relevance to the price of tea in china, but you must take one.

[sblais]

It seems to me that every newbie sooner or later discover polls, and then they have to try one, never mind what it is they are polling or whether it has any relevance to the price of tea in china, but you must take one.

Just take a big toke on that poll :lol:

[cylentka]

Can I collect a poll tax? Please, please, oh please!! (I need new glass, again).

[20droger]

Only if you first pay the poll-tax tax.

[gjl711]

poll tax..
pole cat..
poll dancing..
north and south pole..

So many polls..

[cylentka]

Only if you first pay the poll-tax tax.

I think you have to be a phone company to get permission to double-tax like that. :p

[superdiver]

What were your settings and how do I get the Exif data from that shot?

[20droger]

I think you have to be a phone company to get permission to double-tax like that. :p
Nope! Everyone on Social Security knows very well that you have to pay tax on money that you already paid taxes upon.

Also, every one in busines knows that you have to pay a tax (called a "business license") before you can pay business tax. That license is very much a tax tax. The city, county, state, whatever charges you a fee (a tax) so that you may have the priviledge of paying a specific tax.

[cylentka]

This is a very taxing discussion. My head hurts.

[gjl711]

:evil: :evil: :evil: TAXES SUCK :evil: :evil: :evil:

I think it's about time for another tea party.

[thomascanty]

Woohoo! Let's party!

[20droger]

:evil: :evil: :evil: TAXES SUCK :evil: :evil: :evil:

I think it's about time for another tea party.
Well, DUH!!! You gotta be pretty damn rich before you don't think taxes suck. Bill Gates thinks taxes suck.

Unfortunately, if we were to throw another Tea Party, we would just trade one set of taxes for another, just like last time.

As has been said, "'Taxation without representation is tyrrany!' Taxation with representation ain't so hot, either."

[red hot sheep]

Let's do what comes before Part B! :)

[20droger]

Letter from the IRS:

"Thank you very much for your tax payment for the year 2006. We wish you to know that your payment has allowed the U.S.S. Enterprise to move a distance of 23.6 feet."

[Radtech1]

We wish you to know that your payment has allowed the U.S.S. Enterprise to move a distance of 23.6 feet."

See, freedom IS on the march!

[gjl711]

Letter from the IRS:

"Thank you very much for your tax payment for the year 2006. We wish you to know that your payment has allowed the U.S.S. Enterprise to move a distance of 23.6 feet."
Hmmm.... you got me thinking, what is the real fuel efficiency of an aircraft carrier. Well, couldn't find the enterprise, but did find a fact sheet for the Midway (http://www.midway.org/site/pp.asp?c=coIMKTMCF&b=86831). 260 gallons per mile. That’s a lot better than what I would have guessed. I am assuming that the newer nuke ships do way better when comparing energy output. But now couple that with payroll, meals, and all of the other costs, and your figure is probably spot on. ;)

[CyberDyneSystems]

I think this thread should be a Sticky.

It's part of the EF Lens FAQ Now!

Nice duck. Thanks for sharing.

An appropriate response for any occasion.

Am I witnessing the birth of a totally random thread? OP, can you post a pic? It would help us understand. And, if your friend already has a XTi, just ask them.

Woolbur is going to lose his chance at the 2007 title...

It's a very good attempt but I think the background is distracting, try it in LAB.

regards

BearSummer

Should be converted to B&W with high grain to make it "artsy"

yesterday I was giggling.. today i'm concerned.. I think there's another tupperware thread brewing here... Now, how do y'all feel about private property signs when there's a really cool looking barn behind them?... (nobody would notice I was there)..

sari

Again, Woolbur will have to try harder this year!

It seems to me that every newbie sooner or later discover polls, and then they have to try one, never mind what it is they are polling or whether it has any relevance to the price of tea in china, but you must take one.

-=POLL=- How many polls have you put up on POTN
_ 1
_ 2-5
_ 5-10
_ As many as Grinchy?

[Liam:]

Is this sharp? I just got a new lens

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/closeup.jpg

[Radtech1]

Is this sharp? I just got a new lens

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/closeup.jpg

Too centered, remember the rule of thirds!

[runninmann]

See, freedom IS on the march!I didn't know the march came with IS. I thought it was only available on Canon. I certainly didn't know it was free!

[Liam:]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/closeup.jpg


Thanks for the quick response,
maybe next time, if anyone can tell me what there looking at
I will be sureprised

[Radtech1]

Thanks for the quick response,
maybe next time, if anyone can tell me what there looking at
I will be sureprised

Looks kind of like a train or bus streaking by in the background and some out of focus lens mung throwing a circular shadow. Check your lens for dust, specks or chips.

Rad

[gjl711]

Is this sharp? I just got a new lens

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/closeup.jpg
Dust, definitely dust, yup it's dust alright no doubt about it, dust.

[Liam:]

Nope not dust,
Radtech1 is close in what the pic is,

[red hot sheep]

USER ERROR

[sblais]

I can't tell you what I'll be shooting cause it's a secret, but what lens would you recommend for my camera? Should I go for the EF-S 10-22mm or the 600mm??

[wu_wei0]

42.

I agree with the answer, but What's the Question? And no, it isn't "How many roads must a man walk down?"

"What's the frequency, Kenneth?" "Is that all there is?"

I would have been better if you would have made this thread with a poll.

This way, we could get into poll smoking ;)

:shock: :D

[Liam:]

I can't tell you what I'll be shooting cause it's a secret, but what lens would you recommend for my camera? Should I go for the EF-S 10-22mm or the 600mm??


I would go with the 10-22 you could allways crop ;)

[Jon]

I can't tell you what I'll be shooting cause it's a secret, but what lens would you recommend for my camera? Should I go for the EF-S 10-22mm or the 600mm??
No - you really need the MT-24EX for that.

[steved110]

Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance actually. I understand nothing in it whatsoever, but hope to glean enough to drop quotes from time to time.

[sblais]

One vote for the 10-22 and one for the MT-24EX. Will either of these lenses work on my Hasselblad H3D-39 that I will buy on eBay (bundled with many very good lenses and other high quality goodies)? Just like Liam said, I like to be able to crop.

[Guineh]

Is this sharp? I just got a new lens

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/closeup.jpg

Wow. Did you realise you just captured the first ever image of a UFO that isn't a flying pie tin?

[Jon, The Elder]

JustBe.....you are absolutely right.
I have tried to steer many a thread back on course, with mixed results. Depends on who chimes in at the time.

Depends on how seriously the responders feel at the moment. The sad part is I'm guilty as the rest at times. Right now I'm just enjoying my new LCD and can't stop typing. Beware of the MODS, they are the worst offenders (especially Belmondo who lives alone in the Dessert).

[sblais]

(especially Belmondo who lives alone in the Dessert).

He must have one sweet tooth! :lol:

[sblais]

No comments in 4 minutes? Was my question that hard?

[gjl711]

The tooth, remember the tooth...

[neil_r]

He must have one sweet tooth! :lol:

That may be a "Had" methinks....;-)

[In2Photos]

I started reading this thread thinking it was going to be serious conversation. With the 100+ posts I should have known better.:lol:

[CyberDyneSystems]

I have tried to steer many a thread back on course, with mixed results.

Mixed?
Thus the new title?

I always pick out the cashews by the way.. with the odd peanut here and there before tackling any of the rest of the mix.

[zacker]

I have a pet Mudskipper named skippy!

[gjl711]

I have a pet Mudskipper named skippy!
I saw a show on animal planet last night where a couple adopted a three legged dog. They already had a three legged cat. The cats name was tripod. What a great name.

[puddlepirate44]

Sometimes, at night, my 30D speaks to me. There's a good chance that my previous camera, the XT, did the same thing, but I realized too late that it mumbled. As for the G6, at night it has a side job in a Mariachi Band downtown, so we don't speak much at all. I hope this helps the OP.

[20droger]

He must have one sweet tooth! :lol:
The tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth!

[red hot sheep]

I'm going to call my next dog quadpod.

[JimAskew]

As quoted from a from a wise old Mod: "Never change horses in the middle of a stream or lenses either for that matter!"

[sblais]

As quoted from a from a wise old Mod: "Never change horses in the middle of a stream or lenses either for that matter!"

Belmondo said that?? Oh! you said WISE old Mod... sorry! :lol:

[Jon, The Elder]

Ahhh....The insidious CDS is skulking about again. He may have ME for Dessert.

Still liking this new LCD !

[wu_wei0]

Sometimes, at night, my 30D speaks to me. There's a good chance that my previous camera, the XT, did the same thing, but I realized too late that it mumbled. As for the G6, at night it has a side job in a Mariachi Band downtown, so we don't speak much at all. I hope this helps the OP.
The engine of one of my cars used to speak to me. I feared it was the voice of Beelzabub so I tried not to listen too intently.

[Mgdh]

I can't get any FM radio output on my XT. Can the OP tell me how to do that?

[theflyingkiwi]

hi, I am new around here. I got this 10D, or D10 something or rather. Anyone know were I can download the firmware to upgrade to the 1DMk3

you can just pm the responce thanks as I don't plan on checking this topic that offen.

thanks in advance

did I say this is a great place



doesn't mean I will be coming back tho


but

still

...

[sblais]

hi, I am new around here. I got this 10D, or D10 something or rather. Anyone know were I can download the firmware to upgrade to the 1DMk3

you can just pm the responce thanks as I don't plan on checking this topic that offen.

thanks in advance

did I say this is a great place



doesn't mean I will be coming back tho


but

still

...

Here you go:

<britneypics.exe>

Make sure you turn off your antivirus before running the file. It's so great that sometimes antivirus software thinks it's a virus! Silly software!

[Becca]

I can't get any FM radio output on my XT. Can the OP tell me how to do that?

I get better reception with my flash popped up. Maybe that would help.

[theflyingkiwi]

Here you go:

<britneypics.exe>

Make sure you turn off your antivirus before running the file. It's so great that sometimes antivirus software thinks it's a virus! Silly software!

ok I downloaded this but how do I run it. I tried double clicking on it, all I got was a message saying to shave my head. Which I already do.

Can't understand it or anything, it says to shave my head but I am already a head of it. does this mean I can tell the future ?

[Jamie Holladay]

Is it just me or do any of you notice the same thing?

No it is just you.

out of topic. i think the best looking 350z is this http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2567524/1

Yeah right. That Z is Crap and you know it. Take a ride in mine.

[sblais]

ok I downloaded this but how do I run it. I tried double clicking on it, all I got was a message saying to shave my head. Which I already do.

Can't understand it or anything, it says to shave my head but I am already a head of it. does this mean I can tell the future ?

:shock: That's similar to a Deja-Vu. There's a glitch in the Matrix! They changed something! Run Neo! RUN!!

[ajbalazic]

I can't find my cell phone.

Bet you can't remember who the op was without looking!

[cylentka]

I saw a show on animal planet last night where a couple adopted a three legged dog. They already had a three legged cat. The cats name was tripod. What a great name.

I know a guy with a cute monopod. :oops:

[JimAskew]

I found a 5D for sale at the "dowecheatemandhow" web site for $19.95 including shiping. My question is this...is this a good price? Can I trust a web site that includes shipping in the price? Should I demand a hood as well? After all it is a L body! Thanks for the help :)

[Zilly]

42.


so long and thanks for all the fish

[Jamie Holladay]

Dealerships Rip You Off With The "Four-Square," Here's How To Beat It (http://consumerist.com/consumer/four-square/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four+square-heres-how-to-beat-it-248445.php)
http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squareofdeath.jpg

Former used car salesman Alan Slone grows a conscience and reveals one of the major strategies dealership use to screw you when buying a new car.

At the heart of it all is the "4-square," a sheet of paper (sample above) divided into four boxes: your trade value, the purchase price, down payment, and monthly payment. This is supposed to help you and the dealership come to an agreement, but as you'll see, it's really more akin to three-card monte dealer's deck of cards. Many, but not all, dealerships use this tool.

Here's 5 tips to get you started, and then a very detailed breakdown of how the dealership manipulates buyers with the four-square.

1) GET YOUR FINANCING THROUGH THE CREDIT UNION BEFORE YOU EVEN STEP ON THE LOT. Once a car salesman knows you don't need financing, they're more willing to be forward with you and knows they don't have to work on the payments with you, because it won't help. We'll still try to beat whatever APR you're getting at the bank and offer you payment deals, but forget them. You've got it worked out, and only need to know the price - bringing us to the next point.

2) DON'T HAGGLE OVER ANYTHING BUT THE PRICE.

This seems obvious to most of the readers of The Consumerist, but most people miss this - especially if they're getting dealer financing.

3) DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Know what the MSRP of the car is, know what your trade is worth. (Here's a hint: take the NADA and subtract about $2K - used cars are appraised by books that aren't published to the public, so it's not blue book or NADA value. It's called "black book" value; "black books" are published weekly by companies such as Manhiem Auto Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/), and these show the going price at the auction, that week, for your car. Basically, wholesale cost.)

4) LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

If you read this article, you are already ahead of 99.9% of the people walking in. They'll cut most of the bull**** with you if they know that you're not going to fall for it.

5) UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PAY COST FOR THE CAR, AND THE AMOUNT YOU PAY OVER COST WILL BE MORE THAN YOU THINK.


6) HERE'S HOW THE FOUR-SQUARE WORKS:

The "worksheet" (or four-square, as it's called) is the first thing a person will see when they sit down to negotiate a car's price. This sheet is used both in used and new car sales. When the interested party sits down, they've already driven the car, and have talked to the salesman about what they're looking for. The salesman has had the trade evaluated, if there is one, and has gotten the customers something to drink to take the edge off.

After sitting everyone down, the salesperson starts filing out the four-square. A blank one looks something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square1.jpg

The salesman will only put down the make, model, VIN and customers information (not pictured). Then, the salesman will have the customer initial the part that says "I will buy today if numbers are agreeable to both parties." If there's any resistance (which normally there isn't), the salesman simply says that its to make sure that the customer really is ready to drive the car off the lot today - IF they can get the numbers right. I never had anyone not sign the form who was actually willing to buy the car today. By doing this, you have shown your commitment to the manager in the tower (tower: back room, usually behind glass, where the salesman goes to confer with his manager.) (A note about the tower: This is where the deal actually takes place. The salesman you are dealing with is NOT who you are negotiating with - the sales manager, who sits behind a desk (and is usually one of the scummiest people you'll ever meet) is who's actually going to be haggling with you. This will not happen in front of you, nor will you see what is actually happening. It's a bit of theatre, this part.)

The salesman will then take the paper up to the tower, and when he returns, you'll see something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square2.jpg

The salesman will start, very matter-of-fact, going over the numbers with you. First, he'll start with the value of your trade. The value of your trade, as listed, is $3000. You, expecting at least 5k for your beater, are unhappy with the number. That's fine, the salesman says. We'll get to that in a moment. He then goes on, very quickly, to just state the price of the car. Salespeople are instructed to move over these parts of the sheet VERY QUICKLY, as you'll see in a moment.

Next, he arrives at the down payment square, which is easily double what you'd hoped to put down today on the nice new Prius you now want very badly. Lastly, he arrives at the monthly payment. "That payment is outrageous! I can't afford that!" is what you're probably thinking. All in all, these are pretty crap numbers from what you see.

THESE NUMBERS ARE MEANT TO INSULT YOU AND PUT YOU ON THE DEFENSIVE, ESPECIALLY THE LAST TWO. The idea here is that, unless you're really observant, to get you less concerned about the overall price of the car and what your trade is worth (we'll go into trade manipulation in a moment), and get you to the payment plans offered at the bottom. The salesman, who knows you are steamed, will keep on acting like nothing is wrong, and hand you a pen to sign by the X. This is done for two reasons - 1)You might be the biggest, dumbest sucker we've had today and actually agree to these terms (happened twice the three months I did this), or 2) You look like the aggressor when you say you won't sign.

When you decide state that those numbers don't work for you, the salesman will ask which numbers you have a problem with. Most people will go straight to the down payment, as that's usually the part that most people gag on, followed closely by the trade in value. The salesman will then either talk about your trade (and proceed to downplay the car as much as they can - that's usually pretty easy), or will go directly to the down payment. Very discreetly, the salesman will fold the four square so that the only figures you see when you're talking are the down payment and monthly payment.

The salesman will then say "Well, what were you thinking about putting down today on the car?" You'll respond something like 1500, 1000 or even less if you're in a bind and NEED the car but are broke. The salesman will nod, and act as if he's empathetic with your plight - those bastards up in the tower *are* asking too much from you! He'll then cross out the down payment number and write in the number you're looking for.

At this point, the salesman will say something to the effect of, "Well, we may be able to get that down payment done for you. But, as I'm sure you know, the less you put down today, the more you'll have to pay off on the car - so this payment is likely to go up. What were you looking to pay on the car for payments?" You respond, "I didn't plan on paying that much, must less more!" The salesman will pause, hoping that his last line will sink in a bit and you'll either acquiesce to the current number or offer something higher.

If you don't, and insist that you were only planning on paying $300 a month for the car, the salesman will say, "I don't think I can do this, I really don't. But, I tell you what; my manager is crazy today and hasn't sold that many cars - he's really under the gun from upper management to get some cars out today, and he might just do this. Tell you what - if I can get these numbers, would you buy the car right now?" You say, "Well, sure, I guess." The salesman will say, "Okay, can you write me a check for the down payment so I can take it up there? They're not usually willing to turn down someone if I show up with cash in hand!" (Real reason? People are really unwilling, for some reason, to ask for a check back later if negotiations start to break down.)

Most people, at this point, will write the check - if the salesman is good enough with the snow job, people will honestly think that they're getting a good deal and that they need to do everything they can to get the manager to cave and sell them the car for next to nothing. The salesman will also get you to sign the form, by the X, saying that you're agreeing to the new numbers, not the old. He'll then put on his "wish me luck" face, and trudge up to the tower to haggle with his boss, the mean ol' manager.

(A note about the X: There's nothing legally binding here, BTW. You could sign your SSN, your blood type, and your name all on that line - but there's nothing binding on either party to make that happen. It's a precursor to the real deal with all the lovely paperwork in finance...but not the actual deal. However, the dealerships make you do this so you'll think its official and leverage yourself into thinking you may have just bought a car.)

The salesman will return, with a huge grin on his face, and something like this:



http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square3.jpg He'll say, "Wow! He really is in a tough spot! He was willing to let this go for the down payment you wanted! But, like I was saying, he couldn't really hit the payment you were looking for because he went down so far on the down payment, and he can let it go for this. (Motions towards new payment offer.) Would this work for you?" You will sit and look at the number, and wish you weren't buying a car today but instead on vacation. You will either agree, and we'll enter the final turn, or you'll go another couple of rounds with them until they either meet you somewhere in the middle, or you start to walk out. (Note about "walking out." This doesn't work if your offer is, truly, unrealistic. You need to do your homework before going in - this includes finding out how long the car has been on the lot [just driving by and seeing it for a couple of weeks is good ammo], what the going rate is for those cars, and above all else, securing your financing before you get there, so you're more worried about the ACTUAL PRICE OF THE CAR instead of these bull**** terms.)

Now, lets say you've got a problem with the trade price, as well as the other figures (other than price.) The salesman (and manager) will probably agree to whatever price you want for your trade, within reason. So, assume the sticking point is that you want $5,000 for your trade - that's fine, we'll just say it's going to be bought for $5000. We simply move around the price of the car to $2,000 more, and you're in the clear. You don't notice, we don't say anything, and you feel happy. This is the way that dealerships do the whole "push pull or drag" sales where they'll give you $5,000 for an engine block.

So, at this point, we'll assume that you've gotten everything square and you're ready to close the deal. Sometimes, if the manager feels especially nasty (or has gone a few rounds with you via the worksheet), they'll come out of the tower and say "Folks, I'm (Douchey McDouchebag), the sales manager here. Congratulations! You've just bought a car! We were able to get the payments to $310 - I know you wanted $300, but that was the best we could do. That's close enough, right?" They'll nod their head (another psychological trick to get you to agree), and almost every time the person says "Yea, that's fine!" The problem is, they didn't realize that a $10 payment bump over a 5-year loan nets an extra $1k in profit for the dealership. It's called "the $10 (or $15, or $20) close", and I only saw it fail when a person was really, really exasperated with us. The deal ends, and you wake up in a year realizing that, somehow, you're $6,000 upside down on your car, while the dealership is laughing all the way to the bank.

So, those are the major pitfalls associated with the four-square; it looks really unassuming on its face, but its designed to make you pay more, and not realize what's going on. The manager, during negotiations, will write in BIG BIG letters, will turn over the sheet if he needs room, and will write over other things in order to make it as confusing and hard to deal with as possible in attempts to wear you down and make you sign.

The saying we used to have around the lot was "It's like the Dallas Cowboys playing a Pee-wee Football team." The average car salesman does this dance 4 times a day - you do it once every 3-5 years. They are better, and they will get you on some level. However, by doing stuff like this, you can control how much it happens.

Here's what a finished four-square might look like:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squarefilled.jpg

(Photo by Scott Jacobs, courtesy Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=47277/pageNumber=1#1))

[Jamie Holladay]

Dealerships Rip You Off With The "Four-Square," Here's How To Beat It (http://consumerist.com/consumer/four-square/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four+square-heres-how-to-beat-it-248445.php)
http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squareofdeath.jpg

Former used car salesman Alan Slone grows a conscience and reveals one of the major strategies dealership use to screw you when buying a new car.

At the heart of it all is the "4-square," a sheet of paper (sample above) divided into four boxes: your trade value, the purchase price, down payment, and monthly payment. This is supposed to help you and the dealership come to an agreement, but as you'll see, it's really more akin to three-card monte dealer's deck of cards. Many, but not all, dealerships use this tool.

Here's 5 tips to get you started, and then a very detailed breakdown of how the dealership manipulates buyers with the four-square.

1) GET YOUR FINANCING THROUGH THE CREDIT UNION BEFORE YOU EVEN STEP ON THE LOT. Once a car salesman knows you don't need financing, they're more willing to be forward with you and knows they don't have to work on the payments with you, because it won't help. We'll still try to beat whatever APR you're getting at the bank and offer you payment deals, but forget them. You've got it worked out, and only need to know the price - bringing us to the next point.


2) DON'T HAGGLE OVER ANYTHING BUT THE PRICE.


This seems obvious to most of the readers of The Consumerist, but most people miss this - especially if they're getting dealer financing.

3) DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Know what the MSRP of the car is, know what your trade is worth. (Here's a hint: take the NADA and subtract about $2K - used cars are appraised by books that aren't published to the public, so it's not blue book or NADA value. It's called "black book" value; "black books" are published weekly by companies such as Manhiem Auto Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/), and these show the going price at the auction, that week, for your car. Basically, wholesale cost.)

4) LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

If you read this article, you are already ahead of 99.9% of the people walking in. They'll cut most of the bull**** with you if they know that you're not going to fall for it.

5) UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PAY COST FOR THE CAR, AND THE AMOUNT YOU PAY OVER COST WILL BE MORE THAN YOU THINK.


6) HERE'S HOW THE FOUR-SQUARE WORKS:

The "worksheet" (or four-square, as it's called) is the first thing a person will see when they sit down to negotiate a car's price. This sheet is used both in used and new car sales. When the interested party sits down, they've already driven the car, and have talked to the salesman about what they're looking for. The salesman has had the trade evaluated, if there is one, and has gotten the customers something to drink to take the edge off.

After sitting everyone down, the salesperson starts filing out the four-square. A blank one looks something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square1.jpg

The salesman will only put down the make, model, VIN and customers information (not pictured). Then, the salesman will have the customer initial the part that says "I will buy today if numbers are agreeable to both parties." If there's any resistance (which normally there isn't), the salesman simply says that its to make sure that the customer really is ready to drive the car off the lot today - IF they can get the numbers right. I never had anyone not sign the form who was actually willing to buy the car today. By doing this, you have shown your commitment to the manager in the tower (tower: back room, usually behind glass, where the salesman goes to confer with his manager.) (A note about the tower: This is where the deal actually takes place. The salesman you are dealing with is NOT who you are negotiating with - the sales manager, who sits behind a desk (and is usually one of the scummiest people you'll ever meet) is who's actually going to be haggling with you. This will not happen in front of you, nor will you see what is actually happening. It's a bit of theatre, this part.)


The salesman will then take the paper up to the tower, and when he returns, you'll see something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square2.jpg

The salesman will start, very matter-of-fact, going over the numbers with you. First, he'll start with the value of your trade. The value of your trade, as listed, is $3000. You, expecting at least 5k for your beater, are unhappy with the number. That's fine, the salesman says. We'll get to that in a moment. He then goes on, very quickly, to just state the price of the car. Salespeople are instructed to move over these parts of the sheet VERY QUICKLY, as you'll see in a moment.


Next, he arrives at the down payment square, which is easily double what you'd hoped to put down today on the nice new Prius you now want very badly. Lastly, he arrives at the monthly payment. "That payment is outrageous! I can't afford that!" is what you're probably thinking. All in all, these are pretty crap numbers from what you see.


THESE NUMBERS ARE MEANT TO INSULT YOU AND PUT YOU ON THE DEFENSIVE, ESPECIALLY THE LAST TWO. The idea here is that, unless you're really observant, to get you less concerned about the overall price of the car and what your trade is worth (we'll go into trade manipulation in a moment), and get you to the payment plans offered at the bottom. The salesman, who knows you are steamed, will keep on acting like nothing is wrong, and hand you a pen to sign by the X. This is done for two reasons - 1)You might be the biggest, dumbest sucker we've had today and actually agree to these terms (happened twice the three months I did this), or 2) You look like the aggressor when you say you won't sign.


When you decide state that those numbers don't work for you, the salesman will ask which numbers you have a problem with. Most people will go straight to the down payment, as that's usually the part that most people gag on, followed closely by the trade in value. The salesman will then either talk about your trade (and proceed to downplay the car as much as they can - that's usually pretty easy), or will go directly to the down payment. Very discreetly, the salesman will fold the four square so that the only figures you see when you're talking are the down payment and monthly payment.


The salesman will then say "Well, what were you thinking about putting down today on the car?" You'll respond something like 1500, 1000 or even less if you're in a bind and NEED the car but are broke. The salesman will nod, and act as if he's empathetic with your plight - those bastards up in the tower *are* asking too much from you! He'll then cross out the down payment number and write in the number you're looking for.


At this point, the salesman will say something to the effect of, "Well, we may be able to get that down payment done for you. But, as I'm sure you know, the less you put down today, the more you'll have to pay off on the car - so this payment is likely to go up. What were you looking to pay on the car for payments?" You respond, "I didn't plan on paying that much, must less more!" The salesman will pause, hoping that his last line will sink in a bit and you'll either acquiesce to the current number or offer something higher.


If you don't, and insist that you were only planning on paying $300 a month for the car, the salesman will say, "I don't think I can do this, I really don't. But, I tell you what; my manager is crazy today and hasn't sold that many cars - he's really under the gun from upper management to get some cars out today, and he might just do this. Tell you what - if I can get these numbers, would you buy the car right now?" You say, "Well, sure, I guess." The salesman will say, "Okay, can you write me a check for the down payment so I can take it up there? They're not usually willing to turn down someone if I show up with cash in hand!" (Real reason? People are really unwilling, for some reason, to ask for a check back later if negotiations start to break down.)


Most people, at this point, will write the check - if the salesman is good enough with the snow job, people will honestly think that they're getting a good deal and that they need to do everything they can to get the manager to cave and sell them the car for next to nothing. The salesman will also get you to sign the form, by the X, saying that you're agreeing to the new numbers, not the old. He'll then put on his "wish me luck" face, and trudge up to the tower to haggle with his boss, the mean ol' manager.


(A note about the X: There's nothing legally binding here, BTW. You could sign your SSN, your blood type, and your name all on that line - but there's nothing binding on either party to make that happen. It's a precursor to the real deal with all the lovely paperwork in finance...but not the actual deal. However, the dealerships make you do this so you'll think its official and leverage yourself into thinking you may have just bought a car.)


The salesman will return, with a huge grin on his face, and something like this:



http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square3.jpgHe'll say, "Wow! He really is in a tough spot! He was willing to let this go for the down payment you wanted! But, like I was saying, he couldn't really hit the payment you were looking for because he went down so far on the down payment, and he can let it go for this. (Motions towards new payment offer.) Would this work for you?" You will sit and look at the number, and wish you weren't buying a car today but instead on vacation. You will either agree, and we'll enter the final turn, or you'll go another couple of rounds with them until they either meet you somewhere in the middle, or you start to walk out. (Note about "walking out." This doesn't work if your offer is, truly, unrealistic. You need to do your homework before going in - this includes finding out how long the car has been on the lot [just driving by and seeing it for a couple of weeks is good ammo], what the going rate is for those cars, and above all else, securing your financing before you get there, so you're more worried about the ACTUAL PRICE OF THE CAR instead of these bull**** terms.)


Now, lets say you've got a problem with the trade price, as well as the other figures (other than price.) The salesman (and manager) will probably agree to whatever price you want for your trade, within reason. So, assume the sticking point is that you want $5,000 for your trade - that's fine, we'll just say it's going to be bought for $5000. We simply move around the price of the car to $2,000 more, and you're in the clear. You don't notice, we don't say anything, and you feel happy. This is the way that dealerships do the whole "push pull or drag" sales where they'll give you $5,000 for an engine block.


So, at this point, we'll assume that you've gotten everything square and you're ready to close the deal. Sometimes, if the manager feels especially nasty (or has gone a few rounds with you via the worksheet), they'll come out of the tower and say "Folks, I'm (Douchey McDouchebag), the sales manager here. Congratulations! You've just bought a car! We were able to get the payments to $310 - I know you wanted $300, but that was the best we could do. That's close enough, right?" They'll nod their head (another psychological trick to get you to agree), and almost every time the person says "Yea, that's fine!" The problem is, they didn't realize that a $10 payment bump over a 5-year loan nets an extra $1k in profit for the dealership. It's called "the $10 (or $15, or $20) close", and I only saw it fail when a person was really, really exasperated with us. The deal ends, and you wake up in a year realizing that, somehow, you're $6,000 upside down on your car, while the dealership is laughing all the way to the bank.


So, those are the major pitfalls associated with the four-square; it looks really unassuming on its face, but its designed to make you pay more, and not realize what's going on. The manager, during negotiations, will write in BIG BIG letters, will turn over the sheet if he needs room, and will write over other things in order to make it as confusing and hard to deal with as possible in attempts to wear you down and make you sign.


The saying we used to have around the lot was "It's like the Dallas Cowboys playing a Pee-wee Football team." The average car salesman does this dance 4 times a day - you do it once every 3-5 years. They are better, and they will get you on some level. However, by doing stuff like this, you can control how much it happens.

Here's what a finished four-square might look like:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squarefilled.jpg

(Photo by Scott Jacobs, courtesy Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=47277/pageNumber=1#1))
Wrong Forum sorry but While I'm here

First of all go buy a vehicle from an honest dealer with a good reputation like the one that I work for. If you can not find one. Call me and I will broker a deal for you. You can ask several of the members here that know me I have a good one and I will take care of you. We are in the business to make a profit just like Gap, Old Navy, Toyo, HKS, Polo, need I list more. Do you negeociate with them. No you do not go to the mall and negeociate with them just us. Grow up people. Use some common sense. Do some research before you go to purchase your vehicle. Know what yours is worth before you get there. Know what the one you want to purchase is worth before you get there. Know what your credit rating is before you get there (it may be better and it may be worse). Then pay a fair profit. A fair profit depends on what you are buying. I define it by the dollar amount of the vehicle at hand. On a Z car. Invoice +500.00 is fair. On a G Invoice +500. is fair. On a GTR MSRP +2500 is fair. (Yeah I said it and meant it). And when it comes to extended service plans and road hazard and simoniz and Gap. Well that is up to you. Here is my take on that. Gap is a must. Gap don't pay over 350-400 for the product period. Service contract. I am a believe in this product if it is with the manufacture or Zurich (formally Universal Underwriters) at a cost of around $1000. for 10yr 100k if you plan to keep the vehicle outside the mfg warranty. I like road hazard warranties too. They save both the customer (you) and the dealer head aches. They do work and pay. purchase price around $199.00. Paint and interior protectant (simoniz is the only one that I would reccomend @ $399.00) at a personal preference and only on the interior tell them not to put it on the exterior. Bottom line is this be a smart educated buyer. Do not go in with a chip on your shoulder. Do your research. Know your stuff. Be polite, don't be an a$$ there is not point it will not get you any better deal.

As for the comment about car dealers being one rung above lawyers.... you don't know what the fu(k you are talking about. I am a solid citizen of my community, have two beautiful children who need for nothing and have morals you probably would not understand yourself. I learned a long time ago that you do not have to lie to sell cars. If you think that we all are liars then God Bless You, I feel sorry for you. We are not. There are more good up standing people in the car business than there are in the pulpits on Sunday. This I can atest to. I see their credit. There is a term we have in the business called the 3 P's. Preacher, Police and Painters......

Just so that you know. I sell Hyundai's. I helped open this store 19 months ago, in an area where Hyundai was unkown. We have had more repeat and referral business than I have ever seen in 11 years, more than my GSM has ever seen in 16 years or more than my owner has seen in 40 years. That should tell you something about the way we do business. Becareful of the way you sterotype people.

[Radtech1]

Dealerships Rip You Off With The "Four-Square," Here's How To Beat It (http://consumerist.com/consumer/four-square/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four+square-heres-how-to-beat-it-248445.php)
http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squareofdeath.jpg

Former used car salesman Alan Slone grows a conscience and reveals one of the major strategies dealership use to screw you when buying a new car.

At the heart of it all is the "4-square," a sheet of paper (sample above) divided into four boxes: your trade value, the purchase price, down payment, and monthly payment. This is supposed to help you and the dealership come to an agreement, but as you'll see, it's really more akin to three-card monte dealer's deck of cards. Many, but not all, dealerships use this tool.

Here's 5 tips to get you started, and then a very detailed breakdown of how the dealership manipulates buyers with the four-square.

1) GET YOUR FINANCING THROUGH THE CREDIT UNION BEFORE YOU EVEN STEP ON THE LOT. Once a car salesman knows you don't need financing, they're more willing to be forward with you and knows they don't have to work on the payments with you, because it won't help. We'll still try to beat whatever APR you're getting at the bank and offer you payment deals, but forget them. You've got it worked out, and only need to know the price - bringing us to the next point.

2) DON'T HAGGLE OVER ANYTHING BUT THE PRICE.

This seems obvious to most of the readers of The Consumerist, but most people miss this - especially if they're getting dealer financing.

3) DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Know what the MSRP of the car is, know what your trade is worth. (Here's a hint: take the NADA and subtract about $2K - used cars are appraised by books that aren't published to the public, so it's not blue book or NADA value. It's called "black book" value; "black books" are published weekly by companies such as Manhiem Auto Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/), and these show the going price at the auction, that week, for your car. Basically, wholesale cost.)

4) LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

If you read this article, you are already ahead of 99.9% of the people walking in. They'll cut most of the bull**** with you if they know that you're not going to fall for it.

5) UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PAY COST FOR THE CAR, AND THE AMOUNT YOU PAY OVER COST WILL BE MORE THAN YOU THINK.


6) HERE'S HOW THE FOUR-SQUARE WORKS:

The "worksheet" (or four-square, as it's called) is the first thing a person will see when they sit down to negotiate a car's price. This sheet is used both in used and new car sales. When the interested party sits down, they've already driven the car, and have talked to the salesman about what they're looking for. The salesman has had the trade evaluated, if there is one, and has gotten the customers something to drink to take the edge off.

After sitting everyone down, the salesperson starts filing out the four-square. A blank one looks something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square1.jpg

The salesman will only put down the make, model, VIN and customers information (not pictured). Then, the salesman will have the customer initial the part that says "I will buy today if numbers are agreeable to both parties." If there's any resistance (which normally there isn't), the salesman simply says that its to make sure that the customer really is ready to drive the car off the lot today - IF they can get the numbers right. I never had anyone not sign the form who was actually willing to buy the car today. By doing this, you have shown your commitment to the manager in the tower (tower: back room, usually behind glass, where the salesman goes to confer with his manager.) (A note about the tower: This is where the deal actually takes place. The salesman you are dealing with is NOT who you are negotiating with - the sales manager, who sits behind a desk (and is usually one of the scummiest people you'll ever meet) is who's actually going to be haggling with you. This will not happen in front of you, nor will you see what is actually happening. It's a bit of theatre, this part.)

The salesman will then take the paper up to the tower, and when he returns, you'll see something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square2.jpg

The salesman will start, very matter-of-fact, going over the numbers with you. First, he'll start with the value of your trade. The value of your trade, as listed, is $3000. You, expecting at least 5k for your beater, are unhappy with the number. That's fine, the salesman says. We'll get to that in a moment. He then goes on, very quickly, to just state the price of the car. Salespeople are instructed to move over these parts of the sheet VERY QUICKLY, as you'll see in a moment.

Next, he arrives at the down payment square, which is easily double what you'd hoped to put down today on the nice new Prius you now want very badly. Lastly, he arrives at the monthly payment. "That payment is outrageous! I can't afford that!" is what you're probably thinking. All in all, these are pretty crap numbers from what you see.

THESE NUMBERS ARE MEANT TO INSULT YOU AND PUT YOU ON THE DEFENSIVE, ESPECIALLY THE LAST TWO. The idea here is that, unless you're really observant, to get you less concerned about the overall price of the car and what your trade is worth (we'll go into trade manipulation in a moment), and get you to the payment plans offered at the bottom. The salesman, who knows you are steamed, will keep on acting like nothing is wrong, and hand you a pen to sign by the X. This is done for two reasons - 1)You might be the biggest, dumbest sucker we've had today and actually agree to these terms (happened twice the three months I did this), or 2) You look like the aggressor when you say you won't sign.

When you decide state that those numbers don't work for you, the salesman will ask which numbers you have a problem with. Most people will go straight to the down payment, as that's usually the part that most people gag on, followed closely by the trade in value. The salesman will then either talk about your trade (and proceed to downplay the car as much as they can - that's usually pretty easy), or will go directly to the down payment. Very discreetly, the salesman will fold the four square so that the only figures you see when you're talking are the down payment and monthly payment.

The salesman will then say "Well, what were you thinking about putting down today on the car?" You'll respond something like 1500, 1000 or even less if you're in a bind and NEED the car but are broke. The salesman will nod, and act as if he's empathetic with your plight - those bastards up in the tower *are* asking too much from you! He'll then cross out the down payment number and write in the number you're looking for.

At this point, the salesman will say something to the effect of, "Well, we may be able to get that down payment done for you. But, as I'm sure you know, the less you put down today, the more you'll have to pay off on the car - so this payment is likely to go up. What were you looking to pay on the car for payments?" You respond, "I didn't plan on paying that much, must less more!" The salesman will pause, hoping that his last line will sink in a bit and you'll either acquiesce to the current number or offer something higher.

If you don't, and insist that you were only planning on paying $300 a month for the car, the salesman will say, "I don't think I can do this, I really don't. But, I tell you what; my manager is crazy today and hasn't sold that many cars - he's really under the gun from upper management to get some cars out today, and he might just do this. Tell you what - if I can get these numbers, would you buy the car right now?" You say, "Well, sure, I guess." The salesman will say, "Okay, can you write me a check for the down payment so I can take it up there? They're not usually willing to turn down someone if I show up with cash in hand!" (Real reason? People are really unwilling, for some reason, to ask for a check back later if negotiations start to break down.)

Most people, at this point, will write the check - if the salesman is good enough with the snow job, people will honestly think that they're getting a good deal and that they need to do everything they can to get the manager to cave and sell them the car for next to nothing. The salesman will also get you to sign the form, by the X, saying that you're agreeing to the new numbers, not the old. He'll then put on his "wish me luck" face, and trudge up to the tower to haggle with his boss, the mean ol' manager.

(A note about the X: There's nothing legally binding here, BTW. You could sign your SSN, your blood type, and your name all on that line - but there's nothing binding on either party to make that happen. It's a precursor to the real deal with all the lovely paperwork in finance...but not the actual deal. However, the dealerships make you do this so you'll think its official and leverage yourself into thinking you may have just bought a car.)

The salesman will return, with a huge grin on his face, and something like this:



http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square3.jpg He'll say, "Wow! He really is in a tough spot! He was willing to let this go for the down payment you wanted! But, like I was saying, he couldn't really hit the payment you were looking for because he went down so far on the down payment, and he can let it go for this. (Motions towards new payment offer.) Would this work for you?" You will sit and look at the number, and wish you weren't buying a car today but instead on vacation. You will either agree, and we'll enter the final turn, or you'll go another couple of rounds with them until they either meet you somewhere in the middle, or you start to walk out. (Note about "walking out." This doesn't work if your offer is, truly, unrealistic. You need to do your homework before going in - this includes finding out how long the car has been on the lot [just driving by and seeing it for a couple of weeks is good ammo], what the going rate is for those cars, and above all else, securing your financing before you get there, so you're more worried about the ACTUAL PRICE OF THE CAR instead of these bull**** terms.)

Now, lets say you've got a problem with the trade price, as well as the other figures (other than price.) The salesman (and manager) will probably agree to whatever price you want for your trade, within reason. So, assume the sticking point is that you want $5,000 for your trade - that's fine, we'll just say it's going to be bought for $5000. We simply move around the price of the car to $2,000 more, and you're in the clear. You don't notice, we don't say anything, and you feel happy. This is the way that dealerships do the whole "push pull or drag" sales where they'll give you $5,000 for an engine block.

So, at this point, we'll assume that you've gotten everything square and you're ready to close the deal. Sometimes, if the manager feels especially nasty (or has gone a few rounds with you via the worksheet), they'll come out of the tower and say "Folks, I'm (Douchey McDouchebag), the sales manager here. Congratulations! You've just bought a car! We were able to get the payments to $310 - I know you wanted $300, but that was the best we could do. That's close enough, right?" They'll nod their head (another psychological trick to get you to agree), and almost every time the person says "Yea, that's fine!" The problem is, they didn't realize that a $10 payment bump over a 5-year loan nets an extra $1k in profit for the dealership. It's called "the $10 (or $15, or $20) close", and I only saw it fail when a person was really, really exasperated with us. The deal ends, and you wake up in a year realizing that, somehow, you're $6,000 upside down on your car, while the dealership is laughing all the way to the bank.

So, those are the major pitfalls associated with the four-square; it looks really unassuming on its face, but its designed to make you pay more, and not realize what's going on. The manager, during negotiations, will write in BIG BIG letters, will turn over the sheet if he needs room, and will write over other things in order to make it as confusing and hard to deal with as possible in attempts to wear you down and make you sign.

The saying we used to have around the lot was "It's like the Dallas Cowboys playing a Pee-wee Football team." The average car salesman does this dance 4 times a day - you do it once every 3-5 years. They are better, and they will get you on some level. However, by doing stuff like this, you can control how much it happens.

Here's what a finished four-square might look like:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squarefilled.jpg

(Photo by Scott Jacobs, courtesy Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=47277/pageNumber=1#1))

Cool :)

[4x4rock]

That's why I don't deal with car salemen. I just printed out a bunch of paper from edmunds emailed them my price and whoever matched it, I drove in and signed the paper.

[gjl711]

I know a guy with a cute monopod. :oops: Is it a fancy extendable one? :roll:;)

[theflyingkiwi]

Dealerships Rip You Off With The "Four-Square," Here's How To Beat It (http://consumerist.com/consumer/four-square/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four+square-heres-how-to-beat-it-248445.php)
http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squareofdeath.jpg

Former used car salesman Alan Slone grows a conscience and reveals one of the major strategies dealership use to screw you when buying a new car.

At the heart of it all is the "4-square," a sheet of paper (sample above) divided into four boxes: your trade value, the purchase price, down payment, and monthly payment. This is supposed to help you and the dealership come to an agreement, but as you'll see, it's really more akin to three-card monte dealer's deck of cards. Many, but not all, dealerships use this tool.

Here's 5 tips to get you started, and then a very detailed breakdown of how the dealership manipulates buyers with the four-square.

1) GET YOUR FINANCING THROUGH THE CREDIT UNION BEFORE YOU EVEN STEP ON THE LOT. Once a car salesman knows you don't need financing, they're more willing to be forward with you and knows they don't have to work on the payments with you, because it won't help. We'll still try to beat whatever APR you're getting at the bank and offer you payment deals, but forget them. You've got it worked out, and only need to know the price - bringing us to the next point.

2) DON'T HAGGLE OVER ANYTHING BUT THE PRICE.

This seems obvious to most of the readers of The Consumerist, but most people miss this - especially if they're getting dealer financing.

3) DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Know what the MSRP of the car is, know what your trade is worth. (Here's a hint: take the NADA and subtract about $2K - used cars are appraised by books that aren't published to the public, so it's not blue book or NADA value. It's called "black book" value; "black books" are published weekly by companies such as Manhiem Auto Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/), and these show the going price at the auction, that week, for your car. Basically, wholesale cost.)

4) LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

If you read this article, you are already ahead of 99.9% of the people walking in. They'll cut most of the bull**** with you if they know that you're not going to fall for it.

5) UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PAY COST FOR THE CAR, AND THE AMOUNT YOU PAY OVER COST WILL BE MORE THAN YOU THINK.


6) HERE'S HOW THE FOUR-SQUARE WORKS:

The "worksheet" (or four-square, as it's called) is the first thing a person will see when they sit down to negotiate a car's price. This sheet is used both in used and new car sales. When the interested party sits down, they've already driven the car, and have talked to the salesman about what they're looking for. The salesman has had the trade evaluated, if there is one, and has gotten the customers something to drink to take the edge off.

After sitting everyone down, the salesperson starts filing out the four-square. A blank one looks something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square1.jpg

The salesman will only put down the make, model, VIN and customers information (not pictured). Then, the salesman will have the customer initial the part that says "I will buy today if numbers are agreeable to both parties." If there's any resistance (which normally there isn't), the salesman simply says that its to make sure that the customer really is ready to drive the car off the lot today - IF they can get the numbers right. I never had anyone not sign the form who was actually willing to buy the car today. By doing this, you have shown your commitment to the manager in the tower (tower: back room, usually behind glass, where the salesman goes to confer with his manager.) (A note about the tower: This is where the deal actually takes place. The salesman you are dealing with is NOT who you are negotiating with - the sales manager, who sits behind a desk (and is usually one of the scummiest people you'll ever meet) is who's actually going to be haggling with you. This will not happen in front of you, nor will you see what is actually happening. It's a bit of theatre, this part.)

The salesman will then take the paper up to the tower, and when he returns, you'll see something like this:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square2.jpg

The salesman will start, very matter-of-fact, going over the numbers with you. First, he'll start with the value of your trade. The value of your trade, as listed, is $3000. You, expecting at least 5k for your beater, are unhappy with the number. That's fine, the salesman says. We'll get to that in a moment. He then goes on, very quickly, to just state the price of the car. Salespeople are instructed to move over these parts of the sheet VERY QUICKLY, as you'll see in a moment.

Next, he arrives at the down payment square, which is easily double what you'd hoped to put down today on the nice new Prius you now want very badly. Lastly, he arrives at the monthly payment. "That payment is outrageous! I can't afford that!" is what you're probably thinking. All in all, these are pretty crap numbers from what you see.

THESE NUMBERS ARE MEANT TO INSULT YOU AND PUT YOU ON THE DEFENSIVE, ESPECIALLY THE LAST TWO. The idea here is that, unless you're really observant, to get you less concerned about the overall price of the car and what your trade is worth (we'll go into trade manipulation in a moment), and get you to the payment plans offered at the bottom. The salesman, who knows you are steamed, will keep on acting like nothing is wrong, and hand you a pen to sign by the X. This is done for two reasons - 1)You might be the biggest, dumbest sucker we've had today and actually agree to these terms (happened twice the three months I did this), or 2) You look like the aggressor when you say you won't sign.

When you decide state that those numbers don't work for you, the salesman will ask which numbers you have a problem with. Most people will go straight to the down payment, as that's usually the part that most people gag on, followed closely by the trade in value. The salesman will then either talk about your trade (and proceed to downplay the car as much as they can - that's usually pretty easy), or will go directly to the down payment. Very discreetly, the salesman will fold the four square so that the only figures you see when you're talking are the down payment and monthly payment.

The salesman will then say "Well, what were you thinking about putting down today on the car?" You'll respond something like 1500, 1000 or even less if you're in a bind and NEED the car but are broke. The salesman will nod, and act as if he's empathetic with your plight - those bastards up in the tower *are* asking too much from you! He'll then cross out the down payment number and write in the number you're looking for.

At this point, the salesman will say something to the effect of, "Well, we may be able to get that down payment done for you. But, as I'm sure you know, the less you put down today, the more you'll have to pay off on the car - so this payment is likely to go up. What were you looking to pay on the car for payments?" You respond, "I didn't plan on paying that much, must less more!" The salesman will pause, hoping that his last line will sink in a bit and you'll either acquiesce to the current number or offer something higher.

If you don't, and insist that you were only planning on paying $300 a month for the car, the salesman will say, "I don't think I can do this, I really don't. But, I tell you what; my manager is crazy today and hasn't sold that many cars - he's really under the gun from upper management to get some cars out today, and he might just do this. Tell you what - if I can get these numbers, would you buy the car right now?" You say, "Well, sure, I guess." The salesman will say, "Okay, can you write me a check for the down payment so I can take it up there? They're not usually willing to turn down someone if I show up with cash in hand!" (Real reason? People are really unwilling, for some reason, to ask for a check back later if negotiations start to break down.)

Most people, at this point, will write the check - if the salesman is good enough with the snow job, people will honestly think that they're getting a good deal and that they need to do everything they can to get the manager to cave and sell them the car for next to nothing. The salesman will also get you to sign the form, by the X, saying that you're agreeing to the new numbers, not the old. He'll then put on his "wish me luck" face, and trudge up to the tower to haggle with his boss, the mean ol' manager.

(A note about the X: There's nothing legally binding here, BTW. You could sign your SSN, your blood type, and your name all on that line - but there's nothing binding on either party to make that happen. It's a precursor to the real deal with all the lovely paperwork in finance...but not the actual deal. However, the dealerships make you do this so you'll think its official and leverage yourself into thinking you may have just bought a car.)

The salesman will return, with a huge grin on his face, and something like this:



http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4square3.jpg He'll say, "Wow! He really is in a tough spot! He was willing to let this go for the down payment you wanted! But, like I was saying, he couldn't really hit the payment you were looking for because he went down so far on the down payment, and he can let it go for this. (Motions towards new payment offer.) Would this work for you?" You will sit and look at the number, and wish you weren't buying a car today but instead on vacation. You will either agree, and we'll enter the final turn, or you'll go another couple of rounds with them until they either meet you somewhere in the middle, or you start to walk out. (Note about "walking out." This doesn't work if your offer is, truly, unrealistic. You need to do your homework before going in - this includes finding out how long the car has been on the lot [just driving by and seeing it for a couple of weeks is good ammo], what the going rate is for those cars, and above all else, securing your financing before you get there, so you're more worried about the ACTUAL PRICE OF THE CAR instead of these bull**** terms.)

Now, lets say you've got a problem with the trade price, as well as the other figures (other than price.) The salesman (and manager) will probably agree to whatever price you want for your trade, within reason. So, assume the sticking point is that you want $5,000 for your trade - that's fine, we'll just say it's going to be bought for $5000. We simply move around the price of the car to $2,000 more, and you're in the clear. You don't notice, we don't say anything, and you feel happy. This is the way that dealerships do the whole "push pull or drag" sales where they'll give you $5,000 for an engine block.

So, at this point, we'll assume that you've gotten everything square and you're ready to close the deal. Sometimes, if the manager feels especially nasty (or has gone a few rounds with you via the worksheet), they'll come out of the tower and say "Folks, I'm (Douchey McDouchebag), the sales manager here. Congratulations! You've just bought a car! We were able to get the payments to $310 - I know you wanted $300, but that was the best we could do. That's close enough, right?" They'll nod their head (another psychological trick to get you to agree), and almost every time the person says "Yea, that's fine!" The problem is, they didn't realize that a $10 payment bump over a 5-year loan nets an extra $1k in profit for the dealership. It's called "the $10 (or $15, or $20) close", and I only saw it fail when a person was really, really exasperated with us. The deal ends, and you wake up in a year realizing that, somehow, you're $6,000 upside down on your car, while the dealership is laughing all the way to the bank.

So, those are the major pitfalls associated with the four-square; it looks really unassuming on its face, but its designed to make you pay more, and not realize what's going on. The manager, during negotiations, will write in BIG BIG letters, will turn over the sheet if he needs room, and will write over other things in order to make it as confusing and hard to deal with as possible in attempts to wear you down and make you sign.

The saying we used to have around the lot was "It's like the Dallas Cowboys playing a Pee-wee Football team." The average car salesman does this dance 4 times a day - you do it once every 3-5 years. They are better, and they will get you on some level. However, by doing stuff like this, you can control how much it happens.

Here's what a finished four-square might look like:

http://consumerist.com/assets/resources/2007/03/4squarefilled.jpg

(Photo by Scott Jacobs, courtesy Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=47277/pageNumber=1#1))

really.

ohh you wonted me to read that :rolleyes:

[20droger]

I know a guy with a cute monopod. :oops:
But is it extensible?

[runninmann]

I can't get any FM radio output on my XT. Can the OP tell me how to do that?Are you shooting in the basic modes? I believe FM is available only in the creative modes.

[20droger]

What a gyp! No "Green Box" FM!

[runninmann]

What a gyp! No "Green Box" FM!Yeah, and now that Imus has been suspended, there's no reason to listen to AM :rolleyes: .

[thomascanty]

Yeah, and now that Imus has been suspended, there's no reason to listen to AM :rolleyes: .

Eh? What's that? I don't have to get up in the AM? Kewl! :confused:

[wu_wei0]

Eh? What's that? I don't have to get up in the AM? Kewl! :confused:
If Lonnie doesn't, neither do I!!

[Kevin]

:confused: Whats a XT? Is it good to eat? I'll take two, one for now and one for later.

[20droger]

Eh? What's that? I don't have to get up in the AM? Kewl! :confused:
Those who feel they will hate themselves in the morning must learn to sleep til noon.

[short5]

What if I go to sleep at noon?:shock:

[gjl711]

What if I go to sleep at noon?:shock: It's always noon somewhere.

[cfpackerfan]

If I buy an Xti at noon, will I still hate myself in the morning? When is a good time to get one?
You guys are no help whatsoever. Thanks for the 'advice' :rolleyes:

[Fade2]

How about those Cubs!! :D