Saying NO nicely

[ElenaV5]

Hi there,

I was wondering if you guys could give me any suggestion on saying no to customers I can't provide service for due to my religious beliefs?

I dont want to be rude or make them feel bad, just want to be ready before it happens.

any sugs?

[Tmosley]

Easy, tell them you are already booked on that date and refer them to someone els.

or tell the truth!!! i couldnt forsee someone being upset at you for it, if anything they should respect your beliefs. and if they dont its probably a good thing you dont work with them because it will probably not be worth the headache

[ElenaV5]

Never thought of lieing one ,thats a good one. thanx for the reply

[th3r0m]

I do not know what your religious beliefs are, but I don't think lying goes over very well in most religions either :). I would just tell them the truth and refer them to someone else.

[Skip Souza]

You can always just advise them that you will not be able to do the job. You do not have to tell them why. You just can't (or won't) is all.

[ElenaV5]

LOL .... you caught me red handed! Well your probably right... I should just tell them the truth.

Skip Souza: That would definetly be an option, especially if it's one of the hard to deal with customers.

Thank for the help guys;)

[cdifoto]

You could always send them my way and say I'm better at it, no matter what it is, since it's probably naughty and I'd love to do it! :lol:

[tlc]

be honest. lies only come back to haunt you....

[verty]

how many people have turned down weddings due to religious belives?

[ElenaV5]

Not yet, but I'm sure mr. Naughty hasnt ;)

[cdifoto]

how many people have turned down weddings due to religious belives?

I just noticed where this thread is. haha. I didn't even catch that when I replied! :rolleyes: :)

[cdifoto]

Not yet, but I'm sure mr. Naughty hasnt ;)

Let me guess...wedding in a Nudist Colony? :D :p

[ACDCROCKS]

be honest. lies only come back to haunt you....
If used wrongfully.

[cdifoto]

If used wrongfully.

If used at all. Imagine you say you're booked that say, which is a lie, and then you see someone you told that lie to, on that day you were supposedly booked. You then have to lie again to explain why you are where you are rather than at a gig.

Lying just isn't good all around.

Not that I don't ever. I'm not perfect.

[PhotoJourno]

Elena, I think you bring up a really good point.

Stating religious differences in a photographic work situation may not be the best way to go, though it may be the truth. The reason being, avoidance of confrontation or giving a false sense of desdain (Sorry, I won't photograph you, skeptics).

You are a photographer, and have a project. They need not know the reason why. But you want to tell them, because obviously something about this proposal bothers you.

I say vent it here at the Forums, and as far as your prospective customer, just tell them you are very grateful for them considering you for the job, but that you will not be able to take it. End of Story.

I agree with all the comments above, but I would not bring religion or any personal issue into account. I don't drink, I don't do nudes, but I do not tell my clients is because of a religious belief or some pact I made when I was eleven years old. Separate personal and business.

Anyhow, best of luck, and you will do what is right. :)

[ACDCROCKS]

If used at all. Imagine you say you're booked that say, which is a lie, and then you see someone you told that lie to, on that day you were supposedly booked. You then have to lie again to explain why you are where you are rather than at a gig.

Lying just isn't good all around.

Not that I don't ever. I'm not perfect.
then you say it was cancelled. On some* occasions (not particuallary this) but on some occasions you do have to lie in life.

[cdifoto]

then you say it was cancelled. On some* occasions (not particuallary this) but on some occasions you do have to lie in life.

Exactly. NO reason to lie. Just send the business to me. ;)


I'm a photographer first and foremost, and second a businessman. There is nothing that I will not shoot as long as I have the equipment and skill to shoot it.

[ElenaV5]

mjgravina: thanks for your advice, I agree it's the best way to go.

[tim]

Honesty is always the best policy, but you don't have to give the whole reason. Tell them you're not available and leave it at that. If pressed then it's your call. I don't see why different beliefs makes any difference to being able to take photos of theirs.

[samnz]

About 2 years ago I was asked to do a wedding where B&G were members of a witches coven or somethin'. Part of the ceremony would involve the breaking of crucifixes.

I honestly lost sleep over this then I said "Sorry - I don't think I'd be the right person to cover your wedding - and too afraid of stepping on someone's toes if I did the wrong thing " - they were totally cool with it.

They now live about a mile down the road from me and we still catch up now and then. Guess what!? They bought the old local church and totally redeco'ed the place - it looks amazing!!! Now that's wierd! But I digress...:)

Don't lie - if it's because of your religion, let them know your sensitivities:

If it's about their religion, tell them you're not the right person due to lack of understanding and would best be suited for someone who is.

[TeeJay]

The easiest line to follow is to simply say "Sorry, but I'm not available on that day" (no lie being told there)

It only comes back to haunt you when they reply "Ok, so when can you do it!"

TJ

[shawn.taylor]

I find this amusing at best, and well...anyways....

I had a consult last weekend with a same sex couple.

After signing the contract they told me about a caterer they called up and in passing mentioned they were both female. The caterer made a comment along the lines of "Well I have never done that before..."

Done what exactly? --- Fed people?

If you are having issues with religious beliefs, I suggest next time you are on Amazon looking for photography books, you purchase the latest by Richard Dawkins.

[csm328]

LOL. So much ferver over a personal choice. I say 'change your beliefs!' lol. Seriously though, if they loved your photography so much that 'no' was not an option for them, would you seriously pass up the opportunity and financial windfall? Not to mention the potential clients etc. The only way around it, as far as I see, is place it on your business card or webiste in big, prejudicial letters, stating the denominations that you will not support. Saves you having to lie, be in a sticky situation or making the couple feel bad for their beliefs.

[AMeyer]

Tim brought up a good point - and it's the same view I took when accepting a job not too long ago. I'm hired to document an event, not to endorse the event, promote it, conform to it, etc. Different religions have different beliefs - I would still shoot a Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Scientology, Atheist, etc. wedding, even if their beliefs do not equate with mine. I am being paid for a service and that is all I'm providing.

One thing that concerns me is the remote possibility of someone claiming discrimination because I choose not to shoot their event. It is a personal choice as to which events you choose, but you never know what type of person is asking you. If I were in your shoes, I would say that you are already booked instead of giving a generic reason that can be interpreted a number of ways.

[mmahoney]

You don't have to explain .. simply say that you're unable to shoot their event.

If they press you for a reason then either tell them the real reason or simply say "personal reasons".

I wouldn't spend a lot of energy on this .. shoot what you're comfortable shooting and leave the rest to others.
Mike

[nicolerork]

You can't shoot a wedding because of religious beliefs? What difference does it make? I agree with Tim.

[Mario.]

I feel very closed-minded for asking this...

may I ask what belief of yours stops you from wanting to photograph the wedding?

[ElenaV5]

Thanx for all the good commets:)

Well I didn't ask if I shouldn't shoot a wedding because of my beliefs, I asked what should I say if I can't due to my beliefs.

I don't think we can discus religion here either, but some things I may not feel right shooting.

If I were a talented photographer, How can I make something look beautiful, if in my eyes and the eyes of my savior it is destruction?

[FREEZE]

Way to go Elena when your faith and work mesh so closely that they can't be seperated you know it's true. A polite i'm sorry but i can't do the job and a firm stand is the way to go. When you stand firm for what is right you will be rewarded maybe not the way we expect sometimes but we will be rewarded.:grin:

[PhotoJourno]

:)... Every photographer is first of all a person. Within it, lies a set of core values, ethical and moral standards, and so forth.

A business of photography, may make use of the said person's skill to perform a certain activity. But this does not override the fact that the photographer's values are not taken into consideration.

I think to a point some are mixing up a photographer's need to remain objective regardless of the circumstances, while in this case the photographer's sensibilities may be affected.

The photographer may opt out of that opportunity. There is no discrimination, or lack of professionalism. I would never shoot pornographic material. I just won't. Am I discriminating against the couple asking me to take photos of them in the act? Hell yes. It is my right. But I do so respectfully, and off they go.

Common sense and courtesy. That is what it is all about.

[picturecrazy]

I tell them that it is their wedding day and they deserve the best photos they could possibly get, but I am not sure if my style, experience and methodology corresponds to what they are looking for. Then I say I honestly don't think I am the best person for the job, (totally not a lie) and that I don't take people's money if I am not utterly confident that I can deliver exactly what they are looking for. A wedding is too precious for me to be experimenting with.

[ElenaV5]

thanx for the back up guys!

picturecrazy: I think it's the most professional perfect way to say it! :)
(I better start takeing notes)

[NickSimcheck]

If I were a talented photographer, How can I make something look beautiful, if in my eyes and the eyes of my savior it is destruction?

Excellent reply.

My advise is to thank them for their time, and inform them that you will be unable to shoot their wedding.

If they are bold enough to ask why, tell them that it's due to a "Previous Dedication" which could mean your booked, you have a friends wedding to go to, you have a dentist appointment, etc. It's soo generic that they would hardly be offended and they should stop prodding. On the other hand you are not lying, you are dedicated to your religion. End of story.



Tim brought up a good point - and it's the same view I took when accepting a job not too long ago. I'm hired to document an event, not to endorse the event, promote it, conform to it, etc. Different religions have different beliefs - I would still shoot a Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Scientology, Atheist, etc. wedding, even if their beliefs do not equate with mine. I am being paid for a service and that is all I'm providing.


You are also correct, but it boils down to what the photographer is comfortable with.

I know I wouldn't have a problem with some religions, but I know I wouldn't shoot an Atheist's wedding. The point is that you are in control of the work you take on, and it is your decision.

[RobKirkwood]

Thanks Elena for raising such a potentially difficult issue, and thanks too to the mods for allowing it to stray briefly into religion without locking the topic.

Ann and I share your concerns - so far a difficult situation hasn't arisen for us, but we've always said that if it did we'd decline gracefully explaining that we would not be the best photographer for the couple.

... but it boils down to what the photographer is comfortable with.Agree entirely with this - if we're not totally comfortable with a particular situation how can we possibly do our best work?

Rob

[ElenaV5]

I just want to say thankyou to everyone, for your comments and suggestions. Got some good notes ;)

[mizuno]

If I was ever uncomfortable with a potential job I would simply tell the interested party that I was unavailable.

Don't lie to anyone. It would be particulalry hypocritical to lie to someone because your religious beliefs prevent you from shootign their wedding, unless your particular flavour of religion encourages lying.

[mizuno]

I know I wouldn't have a problem with some religions, but I know I wouldn't shoot an Atheist's wedding.

I know religious discussion on POTN is strictly forbidden, so I won't press on this issue at all except to say that I find the above statement to be absolutely baffling and nonsensical.

[Skip Souza]

Let us not stray too far afield here.
OP asked "How to say No politely, " not should she say No. The assumption is that the decision has already been made, for whatever reason and she wants advice on how best to implement that decision.

IMNHO Non-judgmental honesty is the best policy.

[Philco]

IMNHO Non-judgmental honesty is the best policy.

I don't see how it can be non-judgemental at all since the photographer has alread judged some types of couples as engaging in "destructive" behavior that she wouldn't photograph. I think maybe what you're saying is just to couch it in non-judgemental terms, despite the pre-rendered judgement.

[NickSimcheck]

I know religious discussion on POTN is strictly forbidden, so I won't press on this issue at all except to say that I find the above statement to be absolutely baffling and nonsensical.

Good for you :lol:

[daclozer]

I can't really think of a wedding that I wouldn't photograph. WItches, warlocks, same sex, atheists..... As long as they understand I am in it for the money and not there to join up for anything, I am cool with it. I am not a very judgemental person though.

[mizuno]

Good for you :lol:

...but not so good for you. :(

[NickSimcheck]

...but not so good for you. :(

??? I don't get it.

[mizuno]

??? I don't get it.

No, you really don't.

[Scott_Quier]

Elana,

The initial interview between you and the prospective customers is, in fact, a job interview. During such, each party is assessing the other to determine if there is a good fit. Either party has the opportunity and obligation to decline the opportunity as not being a good fit. Further, prospective employers have no obligation to tell you why they have chosen not to hire you.

I ALWAYS tell my prospectives that I am interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me, because I want to be sure that I am a good fit for them, explaining to them that if I am not a good fit, it will show in the photographs. The client(s) deserve the best I have to offer and if, in my opinion, I can't deliver that to them, I must take a pass. As with a job interview, there is no need/obligation to elaborate on the reasons.

Final thought (and it probably is worthy of a D'oh award) - this is NOT an opportunity to evangelize.

[Yella Fella]

cant you have a clause like they do in restuarants and bars lol "The management reserve the right not to..." etc and so forth

[jamiewexler]

It's been said by a lot of people, but my advice is to say that you are not available. For me, every weekend when I'm not at a wedding I am spending time with my family. So if you're not comfortable saying that you are not available and leaving it at that, say you have a family commitment - then spend the day visiting a family member.

If you start to talk about how you don't think that you would be the right person for the job due to such and such religious belief, then you open yourself up to accusations of close mindedness and discrimination.

Say you have another commitment and leave it at that.

[jamiewexler]

cant you have a clause like they do in restuarants and bars lol "The management reserve the right not to..." etc and so forth

Yeah, beacuse that always works out so well...:rolleyes:


Actually maybe you are on to something.

A notice on your website that says "We reserve the right not to serve _____"

would probably get you on the evening news. You can't buy that kind of publicity!


[FOR THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW ME THIS IS COMPLETELY TONGUE IN CHEEK - I DO NOT ENDORSE THIS COURSE OF ACTION]

[gheesom]

drat! and I was about to put that on my website!!!
If you're not comfortable your not available as I doubt your heart would be at a shoot if you did take the job.

[NickSimcheck]

No, you really don't.

:rolleyes:



Elana,

The initial interview between you and the prospective customers is, in fact, a job interview. During such, each party is assessing the other to determine if there is a good fit. Either party has the opportunity and obligation to decline the opportunity as not being a good fit. Further, prospective employers have no obligation to tell you why they have chosen not to hire you.

I ALWAYS tell my prospectives that I am interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me, because I want to be sure that I am a good fit for them, explaining to them that if I am not a good fit, it will show in the photographs. The client(s) deserve the best I have to offer and if, in my opinion, I can't deliver that to them, I must take a pass. As with a job interview, there is no need/obligation to elaborate on the reasons.

Final thought (and it probably is worthy of a D'oh award) - this is NOT an opportunity to evangelize.


Well said Scott.

I think I will start using the "I'm interviewing you as much as you are me" when I meet with potential clients. I'm in the situation where I take the work that I feel I will enjoy doing. If for any reason I am uncomfortable with something, then there is no reason to continue forward with the client. It would be detrimental for both the client and myself.

[shawn.taylor]

I am impressed. This so easily could have turned into a trainwreck.

To take this thread in another direction, that is at the same time related - sort of, what has a client said / done that has made you not want to shoot their wedding, or you know, say no "nicely."

Two months ago I had a bride to be ask me, "What happens if you die?"
I knew at this point I was not the right person to be shooting her wedding.

The best I could come up with was "Well then I guess I won't be shooting your wedding."

To which she replies in all seriousness, "No I mean do you have a backup?"

I was at a loss for words.

My thought process went along the lines of,....."Backup equipment, yes, backup lives like in a videogame, well I haven't figured that one out yet."

What happens if you die?
What kind of question is that?
Come to think of it, I should have asked her the same thing back?

[formula4speed]

I am impressed. This so easily could have turned into a trainwreck.

To take this thread in another direction, that is at the same time related - sort of, what has a client said / done that has made you not want to shoot their wedding, or you know, say no "nicely."

Two months ago I had a bride to be ask me, "What happens if you die?"
I knew at this point I was not the right person to be shooting her wedding.

The best I could come up with was "Well then I guess I won't be shooting your wedding."

To which she replies in all seriousness, "No I mean do you have a backup?"

I was at a loss for words.

My thought process went along the lines of,....."Backup equipment, yes, backup lives like in a videogame, well I haven't figured that one out yet."

What happens if you die?
What kind of question is that?
Come to think of it, I should have asked her the same thing back?

While that is an odd way to ask, it's actually a valid question in a way. If you should become unavailable for some reason (maybe you are sick, or something happens to a family member, whatever it may be) then do you have someone who could step in and do the job? I think it's fairly common for wedding photographers to network with each other for such reasons.

[shawn.taylor]

While that is an odd way to ask, it's actually a valid question in a way. If you should become unavailable for some reason (maybe you are sick, or something happens to a family member, whatever it may be) then do you have someone who could step in and do the job? I think it's fairly common for wedding photographers to network with each other for such reasons.

Networking in case of death....I like that...almost a good name for a record...

I understand what you are getting at, fair enough, but asking "What happens if your are unavailable?" is far different than asking "What happens if you die?"

[song4themoon]

If I wouldnt want to do a wedding I would say I am booked

[mrslevite]

It's been said by a lot of people, but my advice is to say that you are not available. For me, every weekend when I'm not at a wedding I am spending time with my family. So if you're not comfortable saying that you are not available and leaving it at that, say you have a family commitment - then spend the day visiting a family member.

If you start to talk about how you don't think that you would be the right person for the job due to such and such religious belief, then you open yourself up to accusations of close mindedness and discrimination.

Say you have another commitment and leave it at that.If you're at an interview/meeting and you discover something about the situation you feel uncomfortable about and say you're not available, why were at the interview/meeting to begin with if you are not available?

That may be an easy response. And may or not be accurate. But there must be a way to say "No" politely, and not confuse the potential client at the same time.

[NickSimcheck]

If you're at an interview/meeting and you discover something about the situation you feel uncomfortable about and say you're not available, why were at the interview/meeting to begin with if you are not available?

That may be an easy response. And may or not be accurate. But there must be a way to say "No" politely, and not confuse the potential client at the same time.


That's everybody's problem in a nutshell.

How can you say no, after you have already been in contact for some time. Which is why I like the "I'm interviewing you" method.

Props to Scott for that one.

[mizuno]

If you're at an interview/meeting and you discover something about the situation you feel uncomfortable about and say you're not available, why were at the interview/meeting to begin with if you are not available?

I generally don't encourage people to book in their first appointment. I don't take a hard sell approach at all. This means I always have an out option after the initial meeting.

I tell people to go away, think about our meeting, think about my work, consider the pricing and see whether it all fits together.

I do the same.

Having said that, the only think I can think of that would dissuade me from taking on an assignment is personality issues that I'm uncomfortable with, I certainly don't discriminate based on religion, race or creed.

[jessiper]

I generally don't encourage people to book in their first appointment. I don't take a hard sell approach at all. This means I always have an out option after the initial meeting.

I tell people to go away, think about our meeting, think about my work, consider the pricing and see whether it all fits together.

I do the same.

Having said that, the only think I can think of that would dissuade me from taking on an assignment is personality issues that I'm uncomfortable with, I certainly don't discriminate based on religion, race or creed.

I agree. Well said. ;) Only a sever non-connection personality-wise would keep me from saying no even if the date is still open. That hasn't happened yet, but if it did, I'd probably say something like Lloyd did in a previous post.

[daclozer]

Intolerance rears its ugly head once again.... I agree with miz and jess, I would only turn down a paid assignment if there was a personality problem. I am just there to take photos, not judge people. I am shooting a mixed couple later this year that was "politely" turned down by several other photogs... That is insane, they are wonderful people. She is white, he is black and their money is bright GREEN !!!!

[Titus213]

Tell them you are sorry but you can't shoot the event. No reason needed I think. Just be pleasant and professional. And I commend you on your willingness to live up to your personal convictions, whatever they are. There is more to life than money.

Intolerance rears its ugly head once again.... I...

Intolerance of what? A photographers personal preference? There is more to life than a fee for covering someone elses event. I won't shoot nude/glam shots. I won't shoot sex shots. I won't subject myself nor my team to that for personal reasons. Nuff said?

[mizuno]

Intolerance of what? A photographers personal preference? There is more to life than a fee for covering someone elses event.
Could you imagine the uproar if a retail outlet wouldn't serve someone based on their philosophical beliefs?

I won't shoot nude/glam shots. I won't shoot sex shots. I won't subject myself nor my team to that for personal reasons. Nuff said?
You're talking about different genres of photography. The discussion at hand is regarding wedding photography.

[gheesom]

Intolerance, I completely agree, what comes after that, I won't shoot you, your ugly/fat???

[Scott_Quier]

Well said Scott.

I think I will start using the "I'm interviewing you as much as you are me" when I meet with potential clients. I'm in the situation where I take the work that I feel I will enjoy doing. If for any reason I am uncomfortable with something, then there is no reason to continue forward with the client. It would be detrimental for both the client and myself.
Thanks for the vote!

I should note that you do have to be careful and, I have found, it MUST be said with a smile. This kind of statement can be mistaken by the prospective client as being quite offensive as some come to you thinking they are offering you a great opportunity and you (as the photog) should be greatful - it's happened and I had to spend some time repairing that bridge.

I follow up that kind of statement with an assertion that
I'm really only trying to look out for the interests of the client
A mis-match will result in substandard photographs
That is just wasting their money and ruining their day
If we don't click, then I offer up a couple of names of other local photographersOf course, I've not found anyone yet that I didn't click with enough to do the job :-)

[Titus213]

Could you imagine the uproar if a retail outlet wouldn't serve someone based on their philosophical beliefs?


You're talking about different genres of photography. The discussion at hand is regarding wedding photography.

Market driven issues. What you are saying is that 'tolerance' has to meet your definition. And tolerance of me and my ideals is not necessary because you don't believe them?


And we might be talking about different genres but the underlying principle is probably the same.

I really don't understand why folks think that my tolerance level should be the same as theirs or somehow I'm wrong.

[mizuno]

I really don't understand why folks think that my tolerance level should be the same as theirs or somehow I'm wrong.

Tolerance doesn't come into it at all...

You don't have to tolerate, celebrate, endorse or condemn an occassion, you just have to document it.

[Titus213]

Tolerance doesn't come into it at all...

You don't have to tolerate, celebrate, endorse or condemn an occassion, you just have to document it.

And that is precisely my point - I do NOT have to document it if I don't want to...

[cwphoto]

how many people have turned down weddings due to religious belives?

Do the Footy finals, MotoGP, and Bathurst 1000 count?! :lol:

[cwphoto]

??? I don't get it.

Let me explain: Dan has a problem with people having different attitudes to his, that's all. :cool:

[daclozer]

That is kind of like the the pharmacists that refused to dispense birth control because of religious beliefs and then wanted to sue everybody because they were fired. They were hired to dispense pills, not make judgements... It boggles me that in a modern society, such bigotry and intolerance still exists. There IS more to life than money, but there is more to life than burying your head in a book/ideology and casting stones at all that don't do the same.

[Mario.]

I agree with the above poster.

I'm somewhat surprised that someone can let their religious beliefs take such a hard play into something like this.

So much for embracing diversity and culture.

[Titus213]

That is kind of like the the pharmacists that refused to dispense birth control because of religious beliefs and then wanted to sue everybody because they were fired. They were hired to dispense pills, not make judgements... It boggles me that in a modern society, such bigotry and intolerance still exists. There IS more to life than money, but there is more to life than burying your head in a book/ideology and casting stones at all that don't do the same.

That is fine for the pharmacist that is hired by a chain to dispense drugs. What about the private, independent pharmacist that doesn't want to do that? That would be a better comparison to what we are talking about.

I agree with the above poster.

I'm somewhat surprised that someone can let their religious beliefs take such a hard play into something like this.

So much for embracing diversity and culture.

It may surprise you Mario, but there are folks around who take their religious beliefs quite seriously. Why there is even a very large photography store that closes for weeks on end because of their religious beliefs....

[RobKirkwood]

I'm somewhat surprised that someone can let their religious beliefs take such a hard play into something like this.Many people see strong beliefs or preferences (be they religious or whatever) as an an optional add-on to 'normal' life ...yet for many other people these things are actually a fundamental and integral part of them and who they are. We don't all think or behave the same way - this is part of the diversity you speak of.

I value diversity and difference, but I'm also old (and grumpy) and I have developed strong personal preferences about a whole bunch of things ...so if I politely decline to shoot a wedding because something doesn't fit with my personal preferences, it seems I am to be accused of being intolerant? Now for me the word 'intolerant' is on a par with hatred, which often seems to lead to violence. From my point of view I'm simply expressing a preference - being diverse, being different ...and if someone then accuses me of being intolerant, surely that person is also being intolerant of my own 'intolerance'? Sometimes it's easy to spot failings in other people, and completely miss our own.

But the real problems begin when we try to impose our own specific view of reality onto someone else ...and that's not what was asked here, the question was how do you nicely decline - and I believe Scott has answered that best.

Rob

[shawn.taylor]

Just a quick note.

I cast my vote for Mizuno to be president of the Internet.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for 13 years, I have read lots of books, including the Bible, I gave it a fair chance.

That being said I think all religous folks should give this one a chance http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9921165-5624850?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176488585&sr=8-1

How long until this thread is euthanized?

Current over under spread is 24 hours, place your bets......

[daclozer]

"and if someone then accuses me of being intolerant, surely that person is also being intolerant of my own 'intolerance'? Sometimes it's easy to spot failings in other people, and completely miss our own."

That is a totally ridiculous statement. So if your statement holds any water...I am intolerant of extremists strapping bombs to themselves and sending them into a school to murder innocent children, so therefore I am really to blame because if I were more tolerant of psychotic (but very religious) murderous animals like them then maybe they wouldn't kill babies and women and children??? Again, ridiculous statement.. I am done with this thread as this is not really the place for it and I come in here to get away from that garbage that proliferates the news, etc...

[Titus213]

Just a quick note.

I cast my vote for Mizuno to be president of the Internet.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for 13 years, I have read lots of books, including the Bible, I gave it a fair chance.

That being said I think all religous folks should give this one a chance http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9921165-5624850?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176488585&sr=8-1

How long until this thread is euthanized?

Current over under spread is 24 hours, place your bets......

I went over to check that book out and Publisher Weekly had this to say about that book:

For a scientist who criticizes religion for its intolerance, Dawkins has written a surprisingly intolerant book, full of scorn for religion and those who believe. But Dawkins, who gave us the selfish gene, anticipates this criticism. He says it's the scientist and humanist in him that makes him hostile to religions—fundamentalist Christianity and Islam come in for the most opprobrium—that close people's minds to scientific truth, oppress women and abuse children psychologically with the notion of eternal damnation. While Dawkins can be witty, even confirmed atheists who agree with his advocacy of science and vigorous rationalism may have trouble stomaching some of the rhetoric:

But back to photography - shooting pictures can be as much a passion as a spiritual belief. Or it can be a job which is how some view religion. And in order to do the best job possible I think you have to be able to connect with your subjects. At the very least a solid connection makes the job much easier and more enjoyable for the photographer and the subjects. Generally I think the results will be more pleasing to everyone with that connection.

We will not solve the problems of the world here but I can leave this thread comfortable with who I am, what I do, and why. And it's not just for the money. I like to think I have a passion for my photography - as I do for my spiritual beliefs.

[Mario.]

It may surprise you Mario, but there are folks around who take their religious beliefs quite seriously. Why there is even a very large photography store that closes for weeks on end because of their religious beliefs....

Maybe it's because I'm not nearly as deeply involved as some, it's just... yes - very surprising to say the least. :)

[Steve Parr]

Hmmm...

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

First, if I were a "wedding photographer" (which I'm not), I don't think of a wedding scenario I wouldn't shoot. But, hey, that's me. I'm not a religious guy (at all), so "beliefs" aren't an issue for me.

Second, in the "Business Of Photography" section not long ago, there was a rather heated discussion about photographers who shoot weddings and charge far less than others. I would be real interested in what some would have to say if the couple in question, instead, decided to go for a low priced photographer in lieu of not getting the photographer they initially wanted.

Granted, it's not really directly related; more of an ancillary thing, but it's something that came to mind while reading this thread...

[RobKirkwood]

"and if someone then accuses me of being intolerant, surely that person is also being intolerant of my own 'intolerance'? Sometimes it's easy to spot failings in other people, and completely miss our own."

That is a totally ridiculous statement. So if your statement holds any water...I am intolerant of extremists strapping bombs to themselves and sending them into a school to murder innocent children, so therefore I am really to blame because if I were more tolerant of psychotic (but very religious) murderous animals like them then maybe they wouldn't kill babies and women and children??? Again, ridiculous statementAs you are well aware you take my words out of their particular context and then extrapolate some outrageous point of view from it. There are many things I have absolute intolerance about (you've listed some of them above) - and there are many more things I have a personal preference about ...you seem unable to distinguish between the two, and simply label everything as intolerance and bigotry.

.. I am done with this thread as this is not really the place for it and I come in here to get away from that garbage that proliferates the news, etc...Well, you know, I believe it was you that made a point of dragging the garbage into this thread?

Rob

[NickSimcheck]

Let me explain: Dan has a problem with people having different attitudes to his, that's all. :cool:



Ahh, I get it!

He's intolerant to my intolerance. :lol:



I have to agree with Rob, that it is highly hypocritical to be intolerant of other people's intolerance.

I just think that it is funny how people can kick and scream for tolerance and display little of it when dealing with the views and opinions of other people.

[NickSimcheck]

Second, in the "Business Of Photography" section not long ago, there was a rather heated discussion about photographers who shoot weddings and charge far less than others. I would be real interested in what some would have to say if the couple in question, instead, decided to go for a low priced photographer in lieu of not getting the photographer they initially wanted.

Granted, it's not really directly related; more of an ancillary thing, but it's something that came to mind while reading this thread...


Looking back it was a rather pointless thead, huh? :lol:


But the point I think you are making (and I don't want to put words in your mouth so tell me if I'm wrong) is that;

The bride and groom have the right to turn down the photographer for any rhyme or reason, but how is it that the photographer cannot exercise the same right?

[LeesaB]

I am for the honesty..

I have strong religous convictions as well...and even though I would have no problem doing some things..I am sure they would not want me too..since my face is very expressive (you know a mile away whether i like you or not), I don't think they would want me to be there...expressive and all.

It's hard to take a stand, mostly because it may not be "politically correct" but it is what it is.

Be as honest as you can...Don't lie, because in that you just bent your religious convictions...

[mizuno]

Let me explain: Dan has a problem with people having different attitudes to his, that's all. :cool:

:p

The penalty for that low blow is that you must shout me a beer next time I'm in NSW.

[johneric8]

I'm not going to take the time to read the million post ahead of mine but my first thought on this is to laugh !! As a professional, and a Christian, I would never let my personal beliefs interfere with doing a good job. I find it laughable that any professional would use religion as an excuse not to shoot a wedding. I shot a Pakistani wedding the other day as well as a Gay couple! Do I believe it's okay to be Gay as a Christian? NO .. But, hey thats my personal opinion and it's not going to stop me from providing a service as a professional. Plus, I don't think my wife and kids would appreciate me not paying for some of there monthly activities based on my religious beliefs. Man, I would say loosen up big time... Remember, this is just my opinion don't let it upset you...

[Radtech1]

Hi there,

I was wondering if you guys could give me any suggestion on saying no to customers I can't provide service for due to my religious beliefs?

I dont want to be rude or make them feel bad, just want to be ready before it happens.

any sugs?

As stated before, honesty is the best policy - in these matters it's the ONLY policy. Tell them you won't shoot their event (I noticed you did not say wedding) and tell them truthfully why.

If they ask you further about your reasons then recognize the opportunity for what it is, that those people were brought to you for a reason. No one know what tomorrow will bring, or even the next 10 minutes. This might be their last chance on this earth to hear, and do you want to be the one who didn't tell them?

Remember, "Seek ye first..." Not second, or ninth, or fourth: First. Don't worry about being rude, or making them feel bad. That is not your concern, it's already taken care of.

Rad

[newbie_photog]

Radtech1, while from a religious standpoint that would be fine. However, if photography is the OP's primary source of income and from a business standpoint it is utter suicide. You can tell them why you can't / won't photograph their event but it must be done politely and appear non-judgmental. Word of mouth is very powerful and rudeness is the same through all belief systems so it won't only affect the business from that one group it will affect business from all groups even the like minded.

I think that picturecrazy had it right:
I tell them that it is their wedding day and they deserve the best photos they could possibly get, but I am not sure if my style, experience and methodology corresponds to what they are looking for. Then I say I honestly don't think I am the best person for the job, (totally not a lie) and that I don't take people's money if I am not utterly confident that I can deliver exactly what they are looking for. A wedding is too precious for me to be experimenting with.

[ElenaV5]

Radtech1: thanx for the reply...(amen)

[BJ Pulsipher]

I agree with many of the original replys that you are polite and say you aren't available. I do like the interview thing. I was asked to be a back up shooter and a wedding. The photographer assumed I would be uncomfortable in a situation I wasn't. I just said, "Did they pay in full?" Having said that, there are situations I'm not comfortable with. I don't shoot on Sunday. I have a previous commitment called church.

[johneric8]

I agree with many of the original replys that you are polite and say you aren't available. I do like the interview thing. I was asked to be a back up shooter and a wedding. The photographer assumed I would be uncomfortable in a situation I wasn't. I just said, "Did they pay in full?" Having said that, there are situations I'm not comfortable with. I don't shoot on Sunday. I have a previous commitment called church.


I admirer your dedication to church I grew up going to a private school that went to church daily.. I'm quite sure that God would understand if you had a chance to make good money on a sunday that would help provide for your family..:) ....

[suyenfung]

i would keep it vague and say i was busy. i wouldn't pull their emotions into it. it's unnecessary, and i would think, inappropriate.

as a side note i've always quite enjoyed the irony of a judgmental christian. love is love!

[mizuno]

I don't shoot on Sunday. I have a previous commitment called church.

As long as you're not getting your religion mixed up with your faith.

[Phil V]

Radtech1: thanx for the reply...(amen)
I think that the fact you thanked the ONLY person who felt the same as you speaks volumes.
See I'm not religious I was just brought up with values like everyone being born equal and to love my neighbour and to be non-judgemental.

[R_Metzel]

I only read some of the posts, so I am not sure if this is a repeat.
While you may have specific religious beliefs, thats fine, but business is business, and religion should have nothing to do with it. If it was a moral judgment, like you were asked to shoot an underage nudist wedding, then yes, decline; but freedom of religion will never be fully obtained if people will continue to act biased. IMHO, turning down someone because of their religious beliefs is the same as saying you won't shoot a wedding because the family is African American.

While I have only shot 2 weddings so far, both were heavily religious family's and services, things I don't agree with being an atheist. Just because I don't believe what they believe doesn't mean I am going to turn them down. That is being racist IMO.

While I might not believe in a higher power, I still follow the moralities of most religions. Like treat others how you want to be treated. Would you want someone telling you no based solely on your belief without weighing in who you are as a whole?

[Salma]

Does religion permit you to lie?

[Naturalist]

but business is business, and religion should have nothing to do with it.

Wrong!

Religion has everything to do with it! How we conduct our relationships, business and personal, reflects who we are and the religion we profess to believe.

How we conduct ourselves, and whether or not we cheat our fellow man, it a testament of that belief.

[viet]

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/064/c/0/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif

[sctbiggs]

Intolerance, I completely agree, what comes after that, I won't shoot you, your ugly/fat???

yes :)

seriously though, to the OP... maybe it's tucked somehwhere in here, but what are the circumstances here? I'm just curious.

As for what to say, Just say that you are not available that day. It doesn't have to be another "gig" Maybe that is just a day off for you. A family birthday or vacation day. Who knows, they will not question you if you tell them you will not be available that day.

[collierportraits]

As an aside, I wonder how long it takes for people to see that lying will always come out eventually and that it's actually bad for business.

To someone way back, I think there's never a reason to lie. Ever. But, hey, that's just me... ;)