FEC Upgrade

[LaiLai]

Wow, I haven't been to this forum in ages! How is everyone, especially you Cyber? The reason for this post is this, I have come across a 'modification' for FEC on the digital rebel on another forum. I am curious if any of you have heard about it, or tried it yet? I am still leary as to void my warranty :!:

[robertwgross]

Yes, it voids the warranty.

---Bob Gross---

[cloudless]

It works great and you can revert to the official firmware anytime.

[gcogger]

Yes, it voids the warranty.

---Bob Gross---

It only voids the warranty if Canon can demonstrate that the firmware was the cause of a fault.

[robertwgross]

It only voids the warranty if Canon can demonstrate that the firmware was the cause of a fault.

No. Canon has no requirement to support the camera if somebody else's firmware is loaded in it. It isn't even their responsibility to try to fix it or to even try to decide whether the firmware caused the problem or not.

If you have some massive failure, then I would try to rip out the hacked firmware and replace it with the stock firmware, and then send it to Canon.

---Bob Gross---

[gcogger]

This has been discussed on other forums (dpreview, for example) by people far more knowledgable of the law than I. Apparently there is overwhelming legal precedant to prevent Canon from voiding the warranty on these grounds. Canon themselves, when pressed, have admitted that the warranty is only invalid if the firmware is the cause of the specific problem.

[evilenglishman]

Apparently there is overwhelming legal precedant to prevent Canon from voiding the warranty on these grounds. Canon themselves, when pressed, have admitted that the warranty is only invalid if the firmware is the cause of the specific problem.


isn't that what bob said?
Dont those two lines above contradict each other, or am i not reading it correct? It has been a long day

[gcogger]

Bob was saying that Canon will not honour the warranty, regardless of the fault, if the dodgy firmware is loaded. I was saying that Canon must honour the warranty unless they can show that the fault was caused by the firmware. In other words, if the shutter release breaks then Canon cannot refuse the repair on the grounds of the firmware change.

[robertwgross]

Bob was saying that Canon will not honour the warranty, regardless of the fault, if the dodgy firmware is loaded. I was saying that Canon must honour the warranty unless they can show that the fault was caused by the firmware. In other words, if the shutter release breaks then Canon cannot refuse the repair on the grounds of the firmware change.

Canon could claim that the shutter release is controlled by firmware, and the hacked firmware could be the suspect. It would be the users responsibility to prove that the hacked firmware was not causing the failure. Obviously, that would be impossible.

Now, if some purely mechanical part fell off from the case, then that could probably be argued successfully that it was not firmware-related, so the warranty would be valid.

If you take on the hacked firmware, you are skating on thin ice unless you know that you can always reload the Canon firmware before it would go back for service. Of course, that is a maybe.

---Bob Gross---

[AzzKicker]

We are going off topic and I have tried the FECSet program and it works wonderfully. I did a +2/3 on my rebel and with my 420ex it works way better than factory. I was at my cousins wedding taking photos and it really made a difference.

[theoldmoose]

If you take on the hacked firmware, you are skating on thin ice unless you know that you can always reload the Canon firmware before it would go back for service. Of course, that is a maybe.

---Bob Gross---

That is not a maybe. The Canon firmware contains a bootloader in a protected area of the internal flash, such that you can always recover the camera by inserting a Compact Flash card with a properly formatted firmware load file.

It is designed this way on purpose, so Canon doesn't have to deal with failed firmware downloads (including theirs) caused by botched updates by customers in the field.

[robertwgross]

That is not a maybe. The Canon firmware contains a bootloader in a protected area of the internal flash, such that you can always recover the camera by inserting a Compact Flash card with a properly formatted firmware load file.


Let's see. I know I have that firmware file around here someplace. I think I have it someplace. It used to be here on this CF card. No, wait, I wrote over that one. It ought to be around here someplace.

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

That is not a maybe. The Canon firmware contains a bootloader in a protected area of the internal flash, such that you can always recover the camera by inserting a Compact Flash card with a properly formatted firmware load file.


Let's see. I know I have that firmware file around here someplace. I think I have it someplace. It used to be here on this CF card. No, wait, I wrote over that one. It ought to be around here someplace.

---Bob Gross---

[cloudless]

Let's see. I know I have that firmware file around here someplace. I think I have it someplace. It used to be here on this CF card. No, wait, I wrote over that one. It ought to be around here someplace.

---Bob Gross---

I guess you haven't read the previous posts, you can just download the official firmware from the Canon website and copy to your CF card.

[robertwgross]

Yes, I must have misplaced that Canon web address. I know it is around here someplace. I think that's where I got that firmware. Oh, the network is having problems today. Gee, how am I going to get that official firmware before I ship my camera off for repair?

Not.

I'll stick to the legit stuff.

---Bob Gross---

[cloudless]

Yes, I must have misplaced that Canon web address. I know it is around here someplace. I think that's where I got that firmware. Oh, the network is having problems today. Gee, how am I going to get that official firmware before I ship my camera off for repair?

Not.

I'll stick to the legit stuff.

---Bob Gross---

Well if you have the ability to misplace an URL as simple as http://www.canon.com then I really don't know how to help. And if your network and your camera fail on the exact same day, you should go buy a lottery ticket.

[photoguynorth]

Hmmm - my camera will not power on - what now?

[cloudless]

Hmmm - my camera will not power on - what now?

Yeah that could be a real problem. Actually I worry about that too. Does anyone have a solution to this?

[drisley]

Are we also talking about things like the FECset programs that alter the flash output?
Or just the third party firmware?

[theoldmoose]

Hmmm - my camera will not power on - what now?

Not a firmware problem. Or if it is, it is easily recoverable by sticking a new firmware version on a CF card in the slot, and re-powering the camera. If you can't get the camera to take a new firmware load, then firmware was not the problem. There is something more seriously wrong, such that the CPU is not executing through its boot procedure.

It's not magic, but I'm sure it appears so to the uninitiated.

When the camera powers on, it runs a short protected code sequence that checks to see if there is a valid firmware file on the inserted CF card. If there is, it prompts the user to see if they wish to burn it into the unprotected area of the internal flash. If there is no firmware file on the CF card, it jumps into what it believes is a good firmware load. This happens every time the camera is powered on.

If the camera hangs at that point (even to the point of not paying attention to the power-down switch), then you can remove the battery, insert a CF with a good firmware load on it, re-insert the battery, power up, and instruct the camera to load the new firmware image.

I do this kind of work for a living (for the last twenty or so years), so I'm quite comfortable with the concept, and the kinds of safety measures taken to prevent a unit from becoming a 'brick' in the field, due to bad firmware loads.

In the 300D, the operating system (a version of Datalight's DOS, for the curious) is also in a protected portion of internal flash. The protected flash can normally only be updated at a service facility or at the factory, using a BDM or JTAG connector directly to the internal circuit board.

[robertwgross]

Yeah that could be a real problem. Actually I worry about that too. Does anyone have a solution to this?

I heard that some Russian hacked some firmware for that.

---Bob Gross---

[theoldmoose]

Yeah that could be a real problem. Actually I worry about that too. Does anyone have a solution to this?

I heard that some Russian hacked some firmware for that.

---Bob Gross---

For what? The OP of cloudless' quote was echoing your hypothetical that his camera wouldn't turn on.

Are you claiming that the Russian hack kills your camera, or that it will cure a 'no-turn-on' situation?

Either seems unlikely.

[photoguynorth]

Hmmm - my camera will not power on - what now?

Not a firmware problem. Or if it is, it is easily recoverable by sticking a new firmware version on a CF card in the slot, and re-powering the camera. If you can't get the camera to take a new firmware load, then firmware was not the problem. There is something more seriously wrong, such that the CPU is not executing through its boot procedure.

It's not magic, but I'm sure it appears so to the uninitiated.

When the camera powers on, it runs a short protected code sequence that checks to see if there is a valid firmware file on the inserted CF card. If there is, it prompts the user to see if they wish to burn it into the unprotected area of the internal flash. If there is no firmware file on the CF card, it jumps into what it believes is a good firmware load. This happens every time the camera is powered on.

If the camera hangs at that point (even to the point of not paying attention to the power-down switch), then you can remove the battery, insert a CF with a good firmware load on it, re-insert the battery, power up, and instruct the camera to load the new firmware image.

I do this kind of work for a living (for the last twenty or so years), so I'm quite comfortable with the concept, and the kinds of safety measures taken to prevent a unit from becoming a 'brick' in the field, due to bad firmware loads.

In the 300D, the operating system (a version of Datalight's DOS, for the curious) is also in a protected portion of internal flash. The protected flash can normally only be updated at a service facility or at the factory, using a BDM or JTAG connector directly to the internal circuit board.

I never suggested (or thought) it was magic. I would also agree that most non-power situations are not firmware, but your stance that the firmware can always be loaded is incorrect. There is circuitry in the camera that can fail that will render the camera unable to reload firmware. The problem might not be firmware related, but I would not want to make a statement that there is no risk involved - there is. There is also risk that the warranty may be voided (I know there are conflicting opinions, but there is risk). I was just pointing out a possible scenario (my camera really does power on, and does not have the hacked firmware).

[photoguynorth]

I'm not sure what went wrong....

[RichardtheSane]

Canon may have to honour the warranty if the fault is not caused by the firmware...

But...

They would be well within their rights to either send the camera back and request that it is re-submitted for repair with the genuine firmware or they could make a charge for re-flashing the firmware to the canon one...

[theoldmoose]

Everything you do is a risk.

You will have to decide for yourself if the risk of a sudden electrical or mechanical failure occuring while the camera contains non-Canon issued firmware is worthwhile, in exchange for functionality that may be of interest to you.

Most electromechanical systems have 'infancy' failures, where they will tend to fail very early in their life, if they are to fail at all, before their projected end-of-life. If you've snapped a few hundred shots on the camera and actively used it for a few months, I would feel comfortable with the idea that it isn't about to suddenly fail mysteriously.

If you tend to be on the really cautious side, then wait until the warranty runs out before trying anything strange. By then, the camera will be obsolete, and worth less than half what you paid for it anyway, so at that point, it shouldn't really bother you if it craps out. You'd have to pay for repairs or replace it anyway.

And no, (again, a thousand times no) loading defective firmware into the camera will not prevent you from recovering it with good firmware.

Just trying to balance out the 'nervous Nellies' and FUD-mongers on the forum, here. The sky really isn't falling (really). :wink:

[karusel]

It is natural to fear what you don't understand. I however have a little faith in hacking of this kind, and as far as I know, Sigma is pretty much doing the same, except that the official term for it is 'reverse engineering'. Suppose someone would release a malice firmware, would it be able to defect Camera's hardware? I most certainly doubt so. Even if it were so, there is always a trusted site, from whom many people downloaded this certain hack and have tried it out and commented. I would do it if I had a Rebel and I'm not a fool it's just that I don't believe in bad, bad software that is just plain wrong and I'll get pinkeye, be convicted, sent to jail and be repeatedly rammed up my a** by a group of skinhead neo****s if I ever use it. :D

[robertwgross]

It is also natural to fear what we DO understand.

Some of us were doing design work with this stuff back in the late 1970's, when we barely had microprocessors.

---Bob Gross---

[theoldmoose]

It is also natural to fear what we DO understand.

Some of us were doing design work with this stuff back in the late 1970's, when we barely had microprocessors.

---Bob Gross---

I'm not sure I want to play 'top this', but...

I was programming on punch card machines and time sharing mainframes as early as 1970, and cut my eyeteeth on 4- and 8-bit micros in the early 1970's. And I'm still working in the embedded systems field, for a living.

So there. :P

[drisley]

I too just did the FECset +2/3 compensation on my D.Rebel.
:shock:
Very nice results indeed :D

[photoguynorth]

Everything you do is a risk.

Actually - I quite agree, and don't mean to imply that it is wrong to put the hacked firmware on a camera. I just wanted to point out that there are risks. If anyone feels the benefits outweigh the risks, then it's worth doing. For me, right now, the features I don't have do not make it worthwhile, but that will obviously be a personal decision

[robertwgross]

Sure, everything has a risk.

The Russian firmware code probably works fine, technically. I don't doubt that. It is the human factors that sometimes worry me.

"There is a fool who can overcome every foolproof scheme."

We, as the users, can forget where we kept the Canon firmware for backup. The CF card that contains it might have a failure. Actually, if the CF card failed outright, that is one thing, but a single-bit error in the transfer would upset my whole day. Granted, that isn't likely.

---Bob Gross---

[msvadi]

I'm curious, are there any reports of problems associated with the hacked firmware? Also, in the past did they hack any other digital camera or the DRebel is the first one?