How to argue with the "light-men" at concerts

[vvizard]

Recently I did some concert-shooting for an event. The event got a crew of people taking care of the sound/lightning on the stage. It really looked like they where trying to save money on their electricity-bill by the way... "Let there be light!" And .... it didn't happen :/ So I asked the guys if they could be nice enough to just adjust the lightning a little tad from time to time so I could get away with the pictures for the concert. But of course, they didn't want to "ruin" the atmosphere... F*****. Have any of you been in such a situation? Did you manage to get the guys to listen to you? If so how? I was maybe thinking of something like:

You see this 550EX boy? It's probably the most powerfull flash built for this camera, and it can blow your "atmosphere" clean off! And I know what you're thinking.. Does he have enough juice in those batteries to pull it off? Well, are you feeling lucky? PUNK?

But gentle as I am, I managed to resist the temptation, both to say it, and doing it :/ I switched to the 50mm f/1.4, and got some quite good shots anyway without the flash. But do you have an recommendations for situations like this? Any "tricks" the light-crew tend to fall for, or are all of them stubborn bastar** :-P

[DaveG]

Recently I did some concert-shooting for an event. The event got a crew of people taking care of the sound/lightning on the stage. It really looked like they where trying to save money on their electricity-bill by the way... "Let there be light!" And .... it didn't happen :/ So I asked the guys if they could be nice enough to just adjust the lightning a little tad from time to time so I could get away with the pictures for the concert. But of course, they didn't want to "ruin" the atmosphere... F*****. Have any of you been in such a situation? Did you manage to get the guys to listen to you? If so how? I was maybe thinking of something like:

You see this 550EX boy? It's probably the most powerfull flash built for this camera, and it can blow your "atmosphere" clean off! And I know what you're thinking.. Does he have enough juice in those batteries to pull it off? Well, are you feeling lucky? PUNK?

But gentle as I am, I managed to resist the temptation, both to say it, and doing it :/ I switched to the 50mm f/1.4, and got some quite good shots anyway without the flash. But do you have an recommendations for situations like this? Any "tricks" the light-crew tend to fall for, or are all of them stubborn bastar** :-P

You need their stage lighting. To use a 550 from the camera position converts their carefully crafted theatrical stage lighting into a bunch of guys practising in their garage! You can do it (unless they throw you out) but the pictures will suck.

At the newspapers I've worked for I would use (in the B&W days) Tri-X film rated at ei1600 and I'd process it in Accufine. Later I'd use colour film but at the same ei1600. I'd use a Nikon F3 on Automatic witha 85 mm lens wide open at f1.8. I'd get shutterspeeds between 1/125 and 1/500 of a second, and it worked fine. And that's the best stage lighting levels you can expect.

[GenEOS]

Depends on the situation. If you are there shooting the concert for them, then you may have a ligit concern over them not working with you.
If you are there covering the event editorially, then I don't think you are in the right to ask for them to adjust anything, it's their show.
Going to the event early and professionally discussing lighting with them, may go a long way. I>e>: explaining what you are there for, what kind of shots you are after, etc...include managers, publisists in this conversation...

At most concerts/performances, they are really strict with what you can do when. The ones I have done only allow photography during the first couple songs or acts. Most will not allow flash, but that may very.

In short, smooooz them and build them up a little to see if they can help you out. If they don't bite, then you are stuck with what they come up with as part of the show...Go on, and don't confront, then tell them you will not be able to cover the event anymore because the lighting is too poor to give them a professional appearance..

Publisists will listen to you....a roady may not.

[karusel]

I think if you have nothing to do with organization or organizers, it would be rude to ask the lighting guys to knock it up a notch. It's like asking a DJ to play a few songs that you think will work, but at lower volume level. Just think about it... it's their work, if bosses are not going to be happy with the lights, they can't just say - We're sorry, boss, but some photographer needed better light...

[kahfluie]

I take lots of concert photography, and have been a "lighting" person at concerts myself. The lighting crew is basically instructed on how to use the lights, and what the maximum power level should be at certain times of a concert. One may think they are trying to save money on electricity, but they have their reasons for keeping it low. You can ask them to crank it up, but unless you're paying their fees, I highly doubt they will do as you requested.

Lukily, even with horrible lighting, I've been able to pull off some nice photos at cocerts... and I never use flash at a concert. Basically, make the best of it... don't be afraid to go to ISO800 or even 1600.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Lightig design can be a fine art... to ask the crew to compromise there work to benifit yours... :roll:

CDS
Lighting Designer :)

[vvizard]

We all work "together" on this. I was covering the concerts volounterily for the organization, just as the volounterily do the lightning for the organization. This is all about 180 people working their arses off (as a team) the whole easter (plus planning half a year ahead) to throw off the worlds biggest computer-party. So we're all "in the same boat" and none of us (me and the lightning-guys) have any real power over each other. Of course, if one of us are acting like a fool, we can always take that up higher in the management, but fortunately we don't have many situation that requires for such. This is definetley _NOT_ one of them either.

I was just wondering on a general basis, if there's any "good" arguments that might actually make those guys consider boosting the lamp-power for brief moments every now and then, considering our situation, that we all should work well together to satisfy "management". It's my first encounter with light-technicians on concerts, so I was just hoping there where some good tricks =)

[Ballen Photo]

You see this 550EX boy? It's probably the most powerfull flash built for this camera, and it can blow your "atmosphere" clean off! And I know what you're thinking.. Does he have enough juice in those batteries to pull it off? Well, are you feeling lucky? PUNK?


OK Clint, Calm down and holster that loaded flash please. :shock: :D :shock:

In all reality, you did the the best thing considering the circumstances.
You might consider picking up the 85m 1.8 for those times you might want closer/tighter shots.
........Bruce

[rsnadel]

On occasion, shows in cities like Los Angeles that feature MAJOR artists seem to have a time frame...or perhaps a certain song or two...where it is agreed photographers (still and video) will be allowed to shoot, and then are expected to disappear. I suspect it is done with the cooperation of the artist for purposes of publicity on the evening TV news, or in the next morning's paper, etc.

[kahfluie]

Well, now that I think about it...

I remember a time when I got to the venue early and the crew was volunteering their work... anyway... I got there early enough to check out the venue decide where good vantage points would be etc. I introduced myself to the lighting manager and told him what I was doing there - just small chit chat. During our conversation I asked what the lighting would be, colors, etc., when the hot points of the show would be. I did ask, are you going to have full lamp or will you be cutting back. He said "cutting back a bit." He then handed me a list of songs and said, but "tell you what I'll do, I'll tell everyone to crank it for these songs so you can get good shots. This is the real meat of the performance" I said great... thanked him and offered to email him some photos during those moments.

The next day I saw the same concert at a different venue - this time as a spectator. A little chit chat with the lighting manager. Thanks him for the extra boost the night before... He asked if I was shooting again, I told him no that I was only a spectator. Sure enough - the lighting was not as bright for those songs as the night before - and I realized that the lesser power actually had nice effect on skin tones and such.

So maybe if you get there early enough and talk to whomever is in charge of lighting... take interest in what he/doing is doing/saying. Some of the stuff he tells you might be good to know during the show, and lets him know that you're serious about what you're doing, etc... I dunno... worked for me that day - of course, since then I just use whatever light is available and go from there.

a couple of my concert photos:

http://debbielou.com/photography/concerts/joywilliams_031904/crw_2025_std.jpg

http://debbielou.com/photography/concerts/joywilliams_031904/crw_1966_std.jpg

[CyberDyneSystems]

If the actual "Lighting D signer" (LD) is present.. and approachable.. just being friendly with him/her goes a long way...

Trouble is witha lot of events if there is a designer,. he or she ahs done there job before you arrive on the scene.. and all thats left is the board operator.

Asking a board operator to ignore the LD is like asking asking a soldier to ignore the CO or a nurse to ignore the surgeon...

They usually will not do it under any circumstances.

Again,. the best bet is to ty and get freindly right off the bat.

Being a rep of the event itslef and being able to stress the importance of the archive certainly is a good thing to have on your side as well.

[evilenglishman]

personally i think its a bit arrogent to just wander up to a lighting crew and ask them if they will change a set up that could have taken months to design.

Use what they are providing you with for free :D

[vvizard]

Of course, if I had snuck my 10D in my pocket (yeah, fat chance) into an Iron Maiden concert, of course it would be arrogant (not to say foolish) to ask the light-crew to listen to my wishes, but under theese circumstances, where we're all part of the same team, working towards the same goal, for the same bosses, they for providing good lightning, and me for providing good still-pictures for the gallery. I don't find it arrogant at all asking them if they might be willing to give me an extra pitch of light during some brief pre-agreed moments of the show. After all, we're both working to make the same people happy. And they won't unless both the sound/light/photo/video teams are delivering satisfying results. After all, we where all on the same team here, it's not like I wandered up to a stranger telling him how to run the show, like I feel some people here might have believed.

[CanonUser]

Concert and show lighting is a carefully thought out (normally!) step in a production. Often, it's a collaboration between the producer, the director, the production designer, the lighting designer, and the artist themselves. Stage lighting is an art and there are a multitude of things (mood, color balance, subject isolation, prop, foreground, background, etc...) will be affected even if a single light is changed. Ultimately, the only people who have the final word on anything involved with a production is the Director, then the Producer, then the Lighting Director (if he has any clout), and NOT the lighting techs. Before the first show, there's usually a dress rehearsal where the lighting get run according to a script. The actor get familiar to this light and sometime uses it as a cue. Change in light level sometimes confuses the performer, specially if the performer also has some input on how he/she wants the set or him/herself lit.
I often introduce myself to the Director and ask him/her for some input and perhaps any assistance he/she can provide. I'd aks about the highest / lowest light level, best spot to shoot from, best moment to shoot or not to, and anything I can think of at the moment. I'm also a videographer, and I can tell you this: there's a strict hierarchy in a video / stage show. If you're a tech (light, sound, grip, etc...) and would like to contine getting job in the future, you do your job according to THE MASTER & REHEARSHED PLAN, and nothing else. Once the show started, the ONLY PERSON who can make a change to a production is the Director, period!
I realize that there are times where none of what I wrote above applied and sometime people in the right position wouldn't help you just because they're a **** by nature. But don't surprise if they don't do what you request. Being a team player is an absolute requirement in a stage / video show. The moment a person steps out of line, the whole show get affected. Next time, just approach the Director or Producer or the Lighting Director, you'll most likely get some kind of help.

Regards,
Alan

[Tom W]

Of course, if I had snuck my 10D in my pocket (yeah, fat chance) into an Iron Maiden concert, of course it would be arrogant (not to say foolish) to ask the light-crew to listen to my wishes, but under theese circumstances, where we're all part of the same team, working towards the same goal, for the same bosses, they for providing good lightning, and me for providing good still-pictures for the gallery. I don't find it arrogant at all asking them if they might be willing to give me an extra pitch of light during some brief pre-agreed moments of the show. After all, we're both working to make the same people happy. And they won't unless both the sound/light/photo/video teams are delivering satisfying results. After all, we where all on the same team here, it's not like I wandered up to a stranger telling him how to run the show, like I feel some people here might have believed.

I understand the prediciment, but - lighting, like photography, is an area where science meets art. The lighting folks want to illuminate what their artistic capability indicates that the audience wants to see. You want to photograph what you believe will capture the moment as best as you can.

Its a conflict of interests - you can gently ask or sit at a table and work things out, but if they don't want to budge, I don't think I'd press the issue. They may take your words in the same manner in which Picasso might feel if you told him that his paintings lacked the necessary realism to be great. I'm not saying that their lighting is perfect - only that anybody that takes some pride in their work is likely to balk at any compromise that they feel will take away from how they feel they are percieved.


BTW - I just saw several of your pictures from the other thread and I must say that the results are great. I think that the lighting, while it may have been difficult to work with, had a very positive effect on the atmosphere of the show.

[CanonUser]

"if I had snuck my 10D in my pocket (yeah, fat chance) into an Iron Maiden concert, of course it would be arrogant (not to say foolish) to ask the light-crew to listen to my wishes, but under theese circumstances, where we're all part of the same team"

With all due respect, you just infringed on the copyright act and all of the artist's rights. You're not part of the tem and not working toward the same goal. The artist WILL be very ****** off if they see you with the camera. Had you been a part of the team, then the lighting would be designed with you in mind right from the start.
I'm not making a judgement call or imposing my POV, I'm stating just the facts.

Regards,
Alan

[CyberDyneSystems]

Canon User,. you may be right,. but don't be 100% sure,. if this was a corporate gig,. we are certainly nt privy to the contract that the artists areed to,. which may very well (and it sounds like it did) include the presence of an archival photog..

I see it in my theatre all the time,. In fact I am that archival photog on occasion.

So you don't actually know the facts...

But you have a good point,. sometimes the corporate muckety mucks who hire such enterrtainment for a corporate event don't have the forsite to get permission from the artists they hire... :?

Anythings possible.... the fact that this was NOT a pre-produced "packaged" tour,. but a local lighting company etc.. working for a corporate gig...

I did some corporates for Sony years ago.. (My own room in a beach front hotle in Bermuda! :shock: )

You bet your tushy whatever Sony wanted they got. :wink:

[CanonUser]

CDS,
You're correct. However, my last opinion was directed at the statement "if I had snuck my 10D in my pocket (yeah, fat chance) into an Iron Maiden concert" and not the original post. Certainly, in the original message the poster seemed to have a legitimate cause to be there. I apology for any misunderstanding.

Regards,
Alan

[Tom W]

CDS,
You're correct. However, my last opinion was directed at the statement "if I had snuck my 10D in my pocket (yeah, fat chance) into an Iron Maiden concert" and not the original post. Certainly, in the original message the poster seemed to have a legitimate cause to be there. I apology for any misunderstanding.

Regards,
Alan

Alan, thanks for clarifying that. I was considering posting as to why you were saying what you did, but since you have shed a little light (no pun intended) on your intentions, I can see more clearly now.

You're right, a camera in a restricted situation might bring about some serious scorn. :)

[CanonUser]

Tom,
Sometimes my fingers just go and do their own thing on the keyboard, way ahead of my brain. I'll do something about that, some day.
Regards,
Alan

[CyberDyneSystems]

I see it now,.. "if" we remained in the hypothetical situation... :)

[Tom W]

Tom,
Sometimes my fingers just go and do their own thing on the keyboard, way ahead of my brain. I'll do something about that, some day.
Regards,
Alan

Not to worry - mine not only outrun my slowing brain, but they sometimes get away from my hands as well. :)