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Sam North
24th of April 2004 (Sat), 13:47
Cost-effective Photography
Quality Results Without Pro Equipment?

"Great meal. What pots did you use?" ( Petteri Sulonen)


Are you an amateur photographer shooting on a tight budget? How much do you have to spend to get quality prints? Is it possible to create impressive images using less expensive equipment? Yes, it’s possible, although much depends on your goals and even your style of photography.

Over the years I’ve come across examples of photographic elitism, with inner circles within inner circles where you’ll find talented pros (and deluded amateurs) who have spent a fortune on equipment. Too many are needlessly referring to detailed charts, graphs and the asscoiated ins and outs of MFT testing. They get hung up on sharpness, contrast, colour correction, relative illumination, spectral transmission, distortion and lpmm. Don’t get me wrong – I know that there are circumstances where money has to be spent: professional top gear for glossy images in classy coffee table photo publications; high quality medium format cameras and lenses for really large, sharp prints; l-o-n-g fast lenses for breath-taking wildlife and sports photography; Nikons and Canons in protective housings for crystal clear underwater images, and so on…

But beyond all of this, and of equal importance (and much more common), are the zillions of dedicated amateurs who love their hobby dearly but are strapped for cash. At times it must seem to them as if there’s no chance of getting impressive results with their Nikon or Canon consumer SLRs/DSLRs and less expensive Sigma zoom lenses. After all, those lenses just aren’t sharp enough and the cameras not robust and fully-featured enough. Will you get great results without top quality lenses? Yes, in fact you will! Will your SLR or DSLR shoot impressive images you can print to 18x12 and frame, and even sell? Yes, in fact it will. The absence of eminent sharpness does not necessarily mean that the print will lack impact, and sweating over how critically sharp a lens is is questionable if you plan to routinely expand (interpolate) the 3504x2336 pixels of consumer DSLR images for large digital print sizes. (If you hope to get best quality results in large prints you plan to sell, you may need to consider investing in a medium format system.)

If I believed all I read I might assume it’s almost impossible to produce impressive, adequately sharp images and prints with my current combination of consumer SLR/DSLR and Sigma lens. Occasionally serious amateurs need to immunise themselves against the “I’m-in-the-top-gear-club” snobbery that they encounter here and there. We need to be aware how much this nonsense about pro equipment dependence can make it seem like there’s no other way to get impressive quality. Talented and creative photographers like Erik Stensland, Matt Lancaster and Jeff Alu have already proved that great shots are possible without top-end pro gear.

In reasonably priced image-editing software, to a significant extent, we can manually override noticeable chromatic aberrations, such as red/cyan fringing and usefully improve image softness caused by typical lens deficiencies. (You may get these in a pro lens, by the way!) We can also buy specialised software that will go a long way to correcting the optical deficiencies of less expensive lenses. According to Rob Sheppard, writing for Outdoor Photography magazine, "For lower-priced lenses and cameras, the results are nothing short of amazing." The dedicated amateur can improve the quality of his or her less expensive lenses by using a variety of corrective software techniques and go on to produce large prints that look excellent at typical viewing distances. Achieving this is not particularly difficult.

There’s no point anyone saying, “Yes, but shoot the same subject with pro gear too and put the prints side-by-side!” Apart from the fact that after processing there wouldn’t be a gulf between the two, this line of reasoning proves nothing since the amateur may not be able to justify very expensive gear anyway. And besides, the impressed, interested viewer won’t be thinking about irrelevant comparisons he or she can’t make. "...in discussing mechanical or optical issues we must not lose sight of the much greater importance of image content..." (Ansel Adams, The Camera, p.73)

He went on to explain that "True resloving power is the ability of a lens (or a film) to render separate, fine detail distinguishably." With that in mind let's consider the advanced amateur who buys a very expensive top quality high resolution prime lens. By consistently using a tripod, mirror lock-up, and mid-apertures he may be able to enhance his small format SLR image resolution by around 10%. Even then, however, he will most likely be competing with the resolution limitations of his sensor and choice of 35mm film. And how much of the improved resolution will make it through to the print? Is it all worth the outrageous expense? On each and every photo forum, top quality lenses engender excessive praise and irrational longing in equal measure!

I’m not belittling those who need top gear for their trade, but in too many cases pro equipment doesn’t guarantee impressive results. I’m reminded of a pro medium format photographer who took a large group photograph and gave us shots that were focussed on the tree just behind where we stood. It’s very significant that nobody noticed but me! Seriously, on the day I could have produced equally acceptable and better focussed results with my gear I mentioned above. I'm regularly asked and paid to take photographs of glass objects, and I've seen the work of a professional who worked for several hours and charged a fortune for rubbish shots. To crown it all I recently I saw a pro scenic calendar with a landscape shot that included a large cardboard box in the foreground! Let's get into the real world here!

And there are courageous amateurs elbowing their way into the pro niche, undercutting rivals by shooting weddings using less expensive 35mm equipment, perhaps getting less than top quality results, yet making a tidy sum for a few hours work. The customers have their memories and they are delighted with their albums.

Someone on a DSLR forum wrote: “We've compared photos back and forth many times and it does take top of the line lenses to make The Photo happen.” And: "You will find that better lenses do help take better pictures." And someone who urgently needs real-world therapy wrote in a photo magazine: "... many amateur photographers forget that great shots need great lenses" (Digital Photography User). Can glass resolution and contrast in small format SLR photography really take us this far? For me as a dedicated amateur, this somewhat dated and questionable reasoning only reminds me how relative everything can be with the proper use of image editing software and how prints actually appear at typical viewing distances. The true professional has unique priorities, of course. For example, top of the line lenses are better constructed and will tolerate heavy use.

I’m not an expert, but I’ve tested lenses for my own use in the past, like Rokkor (Minolta) MC/MD and other brands such as Vivitar, Sigma and Tokina. The second lens I bought for my first camera was the MC W. Rokkor 28mm f3.5, and it was very sharp compared to other makes I was to use in later years. The MC Rokkor - PF 50mm f1.7 impressed, too, and if my memory serves me right, the MC 50mm f1.4 was one of the sharpest lenses made at that time.

We can say with absolute assurance that in the past a dedicated enthusiast’s 12x8 print of a good negative, shot with an independent prime lens, would be inferior to an identical print of a negative image captured with a prime Rokkor MC/MD (or even the MD Zoom Rokkor 35-70mm f3.5). There is no question.

But, if there’s one thing that may throw a spanner in the works here it’s the reality of print-viewing distances coupled, to an extent, with what the viewer is actually looking for. A detailed and striking 18x12 print, viewed from around 2 or 3 feet or more and captured by a Minolta XD7 through a Tokina 35mm prime lens, may be very well received, even through critical sharpness isn’t really there (and wouldn't be there either in a print from a Rokkor prime).

Let's not get carried away here: we must remember that beyond doubt some lenses are total bum steers and struggling with them adds disadvantages the amateur photographer could well do without. Generally however, many less expensive lenses can deliver very good results in larger prints, particularly after the careful application of excellent SLR techniques in the field and the use of corrective image-editing tools at home. Under average to strong contrast conditions, a less expensive lens will cause red and blue fringing around the edges of the image. But, as we have already mentioned, if a shot is particularly important, fringing can be removed. Fringing, especially at wide-angle settings, is also caused by light striking the image sensor at a steep angle. Barrel and pincushion distortion are quite noticeable with cheaper zooms, especially at extreme focal lengths. Independent zoom lenses need to be assessed in context — they will never outperform prime lenses.

(As an aside at this point, here's something to think about if you're shopping for your first lens: should you "buy the best you can afford"? Well, it depends. This advice is rampant on forums but in truth it's very easy to buy into much more than you will ever need, especially if money isn't a problem. The best solution is to put your brain in gear and think realistically about what you will actually need. What you want is a different proposition! What are your goals? How far do you intend going with your amateur hobby? What will the final product be? Are you going to sell larger prints? Larger small format prints magnify the shortcomings of some less expensive lenses and while image-editing software can be usefully curative, you won't want to be spending a lot of time correcting images if you have many to work through each month. If you feel you would like to be semi-pro, to make added income from larger prints, perhaps, meduim format will deliver much better results.)

When I use my DSLR, 95% of the time I don't bother with the RAW format so I shoot hi-res JPEGs and, to get more neutral results, I set the camera to a customised parameter setting, although it’s worth remembering that when Contrast, Sharpness, Saturation and Colour Tone are set to zero, they are in fact set to 3 on a scale of 5. (Don’t turn sharpening off completely.) The neutral JPEG images are loaded into Corel PHOTO-PAINT and immediately converted to a lossless format for archiving and editing. It’s a fact that image-editing improves the performance of your lens! And this, of course, applies to my film scans too. It's definitely worthwhile spending time at the computer adjusting curves, levels and the sharpening values. You can end up with very good images that look reasonably sharp, even at larger sizes, all taken with a lens and camera combination that costs a lot less than the professional equivalent!

Software manipulation plays a significant role here for the dedicated amateur who, for whatever reason, will not be buying the best small format gear. If necessary, he can remove or minimise some of the lens’s more obvious flaws and so help to create an excellent image that soars at typical viewing distances. How many will get nose grease on an exhibited print just to assess critical sharpness? Is that why the shot was made? And, if side-by-side comparisons are made, the difference is not as obvious as it used to be.

Everyone agrees that top lenses suffer from less aberrations and should produce crisper images, but are those pro lenses necessary to “make The Photo happen”? Particularly in the context of dedicated enthusiasts and their financial restraints, it cannot be reasonably argued that big name quality lenses are essential. Yes, some pros have a different perspective – they have to. But if you are a talented dedicated amateur using consumer gear, there can be no doubt that you will produce prints that are adequately sharp or better, and are tonally balanced. They will really look the business!

So, if you’re feeling a little left out because you can’t afford the pro glass you hear mentioned daily on the photography forums, or pricey DSLRs, costly accessories and unbelievably expensive software others espouse, don’t worry – just get out there and work like crazy on your technique. You don’t actually need to shoot hundreds of shots week in, week out. You’ll wear your ‘amateur’ camera out too soon. Take your time and hone your skills. Use your equipment to its fullest potential, and there’s no doubt that if you have a photographic eye, you’ll soon be delivering results that others will appreciate.



Sam

CyberDyneSystems
24th of April 2004 (Sat), 14:04
Well said Sam.

A great post.

I think perhaps sometimes our forums preferences are misinterpreted though.

I don't think you would find more than a VERY small handfull of members here that would say that a 300D and Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 EX DG is anything less than a spectacular way to get great images. (if any)

We nitpcik about a lot of stuff.. but if the underlying message is being interpreted as being that one needs to buy only pro level gear to get good images.. then the message is coming through garbeled. :(

Sam, I could not agree with you more on this point;

You do NOT need pro level gear to take fantastic images.

You don't even need $1,500.00 for a 300D and Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 EX DG....

You need a camera and desire.... that's what it's all about.

defordphoto
24th of April 2004 (Sat), 14:07
EDIT: I see now that this thread was started as a continuation of some huge argument from last week that I didn't even know about. Seems this board is getting pretty beat up lately. :(

Gerdav43
24th of April 2004 (Sat), 21:52
I would like to thank Sam North for having the words for what I felt the other day in the "Before I do something silly" thread. Sam said what I wanted to say with more dignity and grace than I was able to achieve. My results were disasterous but my beliefs while not as aptly written are the same. I believe that Sam delivers a powerful message that all aspiring photographers who have just entered this forum should read. Especially those who try to balance what they should buy with what they can afford and actually need.

Bravo Sam North :!: :!: :!: :D

Johnnynf
25th of April 2004 (Sun), 12:18
Sam,

As another who was involved in the "Before I do something silly..." disaster last week, I must also thank you for your eloquent words. Perhaps if I had been more poetic about my views (which mirror yours), the thread would have not turned into "Jerry Springer". Keep up the good work!!

martcol
25th of April 2004 (Sun), 13:09
Anyone knkow where I can get some cheap L glass?

Shh!

8)

CyberDyneSystems
25th of April 2004 (Sun), 14:00
Sam,

.....perhaps if I had been more poetic about my views (which mirror yours), the thread would have not turned into "Jerry Springer"....

ROFLMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sam North
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 05:24
Jim :D

You see wrong. I'm generalising here. This thread wasn't "started as a continuation of some huge argument from last week". What argument are you referring to? Besides, I can't imagine why anyone would want to "beat up" a board they contribute to, learn from and keep coming back to.

I’m just saying this: If anyone has the drive to create, enough talent to see the shot and the discipline to work carefully at various techniques, he or she can be an achiever, regardless of DSLR equipment and lenses – great shots and prints to admire for a lot less cash.

There’s no need to get hung up on the perceived limitations of the kit you own when you can’t justify spending more. It’s easy for some to feel that they’re lagging behind because they don’t have this particular lens or that sem-pro-spec camera other pros and non-pros use, buy and talk about. Let’s see the results! That’s where the tyre touches the road.

To this I would add: “You need a camera and desire... that's what it's all about.”

Sam

defordphoto
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 06:13
Not directly maybe but the topic is still on the same plane and two others have referred to that other thread. When I first jumped in this thread, I was not aware of the other "Before I do something silly" thread. Once I read that one, then this thread made more sense and my comments were way off base and that's why I deleted/edited it out.

You're fairly new here and unless you've been lurking for two years do not know the history of this board. It's changed this year—and especially the last 90 days—and that's why I haven't been here as much.

But, that's okay. Boards always go through cycles.

And this discussion is not new. We've discussed the same issue here several times what kind of equipment do you need for top-notch, professional photos and we always come to the same conclusion: If you don't have the right tools, you can't do the job, no matter how good you are.

We've compared photos back and forth many times and it does take top of the line lenses to make The Photo happen. But, on the other hand, if you're a crappy photographer, buying $10,000 worth of cameras and lenses is not going to make you a good photographer. But, your crappy photos will sure look crisp and clean! ;)

No offense to the female persuasion who visits here, but then there's also the boys-and-their-toys syndrome that will come into play where people will buy eqipment they simply do not need. But, some people have money to burn and enjoy buying toys. So what? Whatever makes them happy.

If someone overbuys their equipment because of something I said, or a photo I posted it's certainly not my fault. I know there are at least two people here who bought Canon dSLRs directly because of my influence. I know there are probably 4-6 (maybe more) 100-400L lenses that were purchased because of my direct influence on this board. Am I bragging? Hell no. Read the other threads I posted recently and you'll see that it makes me feel a bit uneasy, but sure yeah, it is kinda cool too. I couldn't ask for a more sincere compliment from anyone basically saying "I want to shoot just like you." Wow!

That's why I have suggested a pro-board here. Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, but it might avoid some of the pro/semi-pro vs. amateur clashes we have had in the past.

But, the ultimate responsibility of what a person buys or does not buy falls upon the buyer themself. This board is very good about encouraging the fledgling, beginner photographer struggling through their first dSLR and wondering why they can't get the photo with their $1500 camera and $100 lens. Sure they may be a great photographer, but that $100 lens will be their limitation and we will tell them so. We will tell them that they do need to move up in the lens department and many are shocked when they're paying quite a bit more for a lens than what they paid for their camera.

chris.bailey
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 07:32
[quote="RFMSports"]
That's why I have suggested a pro-board here. Maybe it wouldn't work, I don't know, but it might avoid some of the pro/semi-pro vs. amateur clashes we have had in the past.
quote]

Jim

Agree with everything you say but I think the above would be a terrible shame and I see these so called 'clashes' as rare but inevitable events. Some of the advice given by the Pros here helps us Am's who take our hobby seriously and I think that in general it is remarkably well balanced. If a reader is unable to understand the advice being given and the spirit it is given in then that is their problem.

I bought a 100-400L part based on questions and posts on this board and though I winced when I got my credit card bill I dont regret it one bit, the only thing I do regret is buying something else cheaper in the first place! I was never that happy with the results and for me that spoilt taking photos with it. I dont see it as 'snobbery' it just is. I also use an S50 (for its pocketability) and my walk round lense is a 28-135. I understand the limitations of each, however, and would not go bird hunting with the S50. Equally I dont see why I should feel at all ashamed to have bought the 100-400L just because it is white (ish) and has a red band.

At the end of the day if someone comes on here and asks for suggestions as to the best long zoom lense, is it any surprise that several people will suggest the 100-400L. Whether the improvements are worth the price is a hugely individual decision, for me it was well worth it.

Andy_T
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 07:41
Hi,

obviously, it helps to have both talent and great equipment.

But - In my opinion, talent is a lot more important than equipment.

If Ansel Adams were around today to pick up an A60 p&s, he most likely would make photos that are a lot better than anything I would ever dream about getting myself, even if I got a 1Ds or MKII and all the L glass I could carry.

Now would the other guys sneer at his photos when he put them in the 'Critique' session and say that they just not good enough on terms of resolution and sharpness? Maybe not. Most likely not. (And if so, he'd master his PS to overcome these limitations)

Of course - I know that he also would have a hard time shooting weddings and meeting all the required deadlines ... but we're talking about making a good photo, not earning your life as a photographer depending on his equipment.

Actually, that's what makes us AMATEURS. There's nothing bad or belittling in that word, to me. It means somebody who loves to take photographs.

An example - Take a look at this site: http://www.kleptography.com to see what you can do with a humble G2.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: Still, it's great fun to discuss equipment. After all, for me it's easier to get a 1Ds and L glass than develop Ansel Adams' photographic eye...

Gerdav43
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 07:59
It's changed this year—and especially the last 90 days—and that's why I haven't been here as much.

But, that's okay. Boards always go through cycles.


Jim,

I believe you are right. I am one of those new amateurs that has joined the club and at time voiced a different perspective (sometimes good, sometimes not so good). Hence, I have changed the board (not much, but a little, I'm more a reader than a poster). I believe (but I don't have the facts to bear this out) that things started to change with the release of the 300D. With that came alot of new people who could not afford DSLR photography before and are now looking for answers. Hence things have been watered down and repetitive lately. It's called hammering the answers home :D We'll (the new guys and girls) get it soon. A great Borg once said "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

What I would like to say is that I have always enjoyed your posts and your insight and would like to see you continue to be an active poster. You see, your moment in the sun is nearly here.:D Your prize will be at your door step any day now. This will be the beginning of a new cycle.................your cycle. :wink:

PS. - congrats on the cover :!:

Sam North
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 13:03
We've compared photos back and forth many times and it does take top of the line lenses to make The Photo happen.

This is where, in my opinion, the argument for much better equipment among serious amateurs tends to significantly break down. For me it also underscores how relative everything can be with digital technology. The professional has different needs, of course.

I’m not an expert, but I’ve tested lenses for my own use in the past, like Rokkor (Minolta) MC/MD and other brands such as Vivitar, Sigma and Tokina. The second lens I bought for my first camera was the MC W. Rokkor 28mm f3.5, and it was very sharp. Other lenses paled into insignificance beside it. You could even see this in a 6x4 machine print. The MC Rokkor - PF 50mm f1.7 really impressed, too and I read a long time ago that the MC 50mm f1.4 was one of the sharpest lenses made.

We can say with absolute assurance that in the past a dedicated enthusiast’s 18x12 print of a good negative, shot with an independent prime lens, would be clearly inferior to an identical print shot with a prime Rokkor MC (or even the MD Zoom Rokkor 35-70mm f3.5). There is no question.

But, if there’s one thing that may throw a spanner in the works here it’s the reality of print viewing distances coupled, to an extent, with what the viewer is actually looking for. Without a side-by-side comparison, a detailed, striking 18x12 print, viewed from around 3 or 4 feet and captured by a Minolta XD7 through a Tokina 35mm prime lens, may be very well received, even through critical sharpness isn’t there.

When we compare photos here on this forum, we see that better lenses produce sharper images, with little or no chromatic aberration. But are those top lenses necessary to “make The Photo happen”? Particularly in the context of dedicated enthusiasts and their financial restraints, I’m not so sure I can agree. I understand pros have a different perspective: “I know that there are circumstances where money has to be spent” (see original post).

Software manipulation, as originally mentioned, plays a significant role here for the dedicated amateur who, for whatever reason, will not be buying the best of gear. If necessary, he can remove some of the lens’s more obvious flaws and so help to create an excellent image that soars at typical viewing distances. How many will get nose grease on an exhibited print just to assess critical sharpness? Is that why the shot was made? What’s the point? And, if side-by-side comparisons are made, the gulf is not as great as it used to be.

I’ve been producing experimental 300D 18x12s, 15x10s and 8x12s that have been carefully assessed in my image-editing software, and I’m still learning. I’m not particularly easy to please (ask my wife!), but at proper viewing distances the prints I’m getting are reasonably sharp and tonally balanced, even when interpolated. I’m not a pro, but I know I can produce A Photo that happens with equipment that’s anything but professional!

When all is said and done, let's be sure we do the best we can with what we can afford.

Sam

scottbergerphoto
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 13:35
I probably shouldn't jump in here, but lacking caution as usual I will. It seems that some people would like to have a battle between the haves and the have nots. I have been on this board for just less then a year. I don't think I've ever felt that someone was intentionally bragging about the superiority of their equipment or putting anyone down because they had less expensive gear. What I do see is alot of people excited about Canon digital photography and wanting to share their enthusiasm and their knowledge. I want to hear about things that I may not be able to afford yet. I don't feel threatened, or inferior. I feel enlightened. Many people feel threatened or have difficulty discussing their problems/questions, when there people with more experience around or people with more expensive equipment. Kind of like going to a 5 star restaurant when your used to Micky D's. That's something they have to deal with. Who better to learn from then people with experience, who have worked their way up the chain to better equipment. I have never seen anyone on this board try to make a newcomer or someone with less expensive glass feel inferior. If they did, they'd get slammed.
This world is full of people both smarter then me and less smart, richer and poorer. If I can learn something and in turn teach something, all the better for me.
So let's cut out all the hand wringing about class warfare, because personally I don't think it's really there.
Scott

Sam North
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 14:36
Scott,

You're not jumping in at all. You make some excellent points.

It's worth considering too that some people may be disheartened rather than feel threatened or inferior when they hear how good L glass is and how they really do need it to get quality results. It's never deliberate.

But, the good news is this: The end result is the print (via very useful post-processing) and if cash is short you can still get very impressive enlargements that will hold their own among the L glass stuff. I'm all about, how good can we get with what we can afford?

You're right too about learning and sharing the knowledge you have. I've learned so much online it's just incredible. This forum surely plays its part, and I appreciate the work put in by those who make it happen. :D

Sam

scottbergerphoto
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 16:41
Sam,
Thanks for your warm remarks.There will always be someone smarter, richer, sexier, happier, more physically endowed, more articulate, etc. That's just a fact of life. Most of us manage to survive. Some of us even thrive. We are all trying to get better at what we do. Let's not create a schism between the haves and have nots. I don't think one exists now and I would hate to see it start. If you see someone behaving in a way in which they define themselves by their "L"ness, or their proud lack of "L"ness, feel free to knock them down a peg.
Regards,
Scott

defordphoto
26th of April 2004 (Mon), 17:02
So let's cut out all the hand wringing about class warfare, because personally I don't think it's really there.
Scott

The rest of that post was excellent, but I'd like to see this be the last post in this thread. I'm done with it anyway because threads like this accomplish little or nothing other than upsetting somone or another or chasing away yet another. We've beaten this horse quite enough, IMO.