Advice on personal situation

[TheChemist]

I regularly shoot high school sports, as I am the photographer for my school paper. In addition, my photos go online to exposure manager for sale to parents. However, I recently received this e-mail from one of the parents from a team that I corresponed with.

"Kevin-We are putting together a Memory Book (through My Publisher) as a thank you to the Coach and for the girls to order. Would you be willing to share some of your pictures for our book? We would give you some advertising space in the book. I have no money to pay you. Let me know. Mrs. X"

The problem is that a. e-mails have already been sent to the parents of the players, so advertising would be largely useless and I feel that my photos are good enough to warrant payment (I don't get much revenue from print sales) and b. this parent is good friends with my mother.

Do I bite the bullet and get the pictures to her, or go via some other route?

[Picturesports]

Interesting problem. The value of an image can be defined by how easily it can be reproduced. If the publisher of the book can easily get someone esle to reproduce the photos that you have taken (as in do again not copy yours) then you have little room to manouver. If they can't then the images are worth something - exactly what is up to you.

Before you feel the pressure that someone is putting you under look at it from the point of view that they are perhaps trying to lever a situation to their advantage, so don't feel bad about respectfully saying no thank you to their offer.

Finally and perhaps most importantly - if the publication isn't willing to pay to make their publication better then they don't need your work and so it has no value to the publisher. In which case it isn't worth publishing - Do you see where I'm coming from? If they don't want to pay then it can't have any value to them and so why do they want it?

They have asked you for something and offered you something in return. You don't need what they are offering so make a counter offer. How about $x per copy sold?

[neil_r]

As a photographer "for your school paper", is there any debate over copyright ownership? If not and the images are yours then you must do as you see fit, however, were you a mechanic and a friend of your mothers asked you to fix her car pro bono, to enable her to sell it on at a profit would that be a reasonable request? I would suggest not. I see no difference here, if she wants the photographs she should be prepared to pay the market rate.

[cosworth]

TFP sucks. I combat it every day. Don't lower yourself and hold the high ground.

[blackshadow]

Another way out of this may be to enter a contract where you receive a cut of the sales. If in your opinion your photos add x% value to the book ask for x% revenue from the publisher.

Some publications don't pay until the publication goes on sale.

I'd talk to Mrs X face to face and explain your situation as a photographer (especially the points made in posts 2 and 3).

Another option may be to mention it to your Mum and say Mrs X is wanting my photos for nothing to use in a book what do you think? Your Mum may mention it in one of those tactful ways mothers do and Mrs X then may realise the error of her ways.

Good luck.

[ssim]

One thing that I am not clear on and that is you say " my photos go online to exposure manager for sale to parents." Who receives the funds from those sales now, you or the school?

You may have been backed into a corner that is difficult and there have been some good ideas and thoughts put forward already. Is the advertising really useless. It may be in respect to the sale of this memory book but what if you want to do photography outside of the confines of the school and its activities. If this is something that interests you then negotiate for a large space and not stuck in the bowels of the book.

Out of curiosity how many students at your school. What is the potential for units sold of this memory book. I think it would be fair assessment that you won't get market rates for everything but I think you should get something out of it.

[willowdawn]

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, but this looks like the book is a one time purchase/gift for the coach. Am I missing something? Maybe I am, as why would you put an ad in a memory book? But maybe she is thinking an ad would be the same as a photo credit? If it is a one time purchase for a gift for the coach, and you get photo credit... I say give her the photos. Chances are you have a relationship with said coach too, and it can be your contribution. You know that many folks will see the book and with a photo credit in there, chalk it up to marketing. But again, maybe I'm missing something.

Willow

[PhotosGuy]

Willow, you missed ""Kevin-We are putting together a Memory Book (through My Publisher) as a thank you to the Coach and for the girls to order." ;)

I'd ask what shots she wants to use. Make a comp of them with your name & url on it, & that can be her free ones & your "ad"?
Let her have it free for good will if you plan to shoot there next year.

[cosworth]

True, if tfp is the route to go, make sure you get something substantial.

[zacker]

i was thinking the same thing.... if you are gonna GIVE her FREE images to use, do so under the stipulation that they leave your Signature on them and that they cannot be used for anything else... if not, you need to be paid for the usage!

[willowdawn]

Willow, you missed ""Kevin-We are putting together a Memory Book (through My Publisher) as a thank you to the Coach and for the girls to order." ;)

I'd ask what shots she wants to use. Make a comp of them with your name & url on it, & that can be her free ones & your "ad"?
Let her have it free for good will if you plan to shoot there next year.

Thanks! Was posting before my coffee! :)

[TheChemist]

The images are all mine, completely. I donate a few images per month to the newspaper because I believe that's a totally worthwhile endeavor and school papers don't have money to pay me.

The exposure manager site is mine (I pay for it), and all of the proceeds go to me. All of the equipment I use is mine as well. There are approximately 30 or 35 girls on the lacrosse team - I was considering asking for a percentage of the sales as some of you have asked. The reason why I don't really care to take the free advertising is that the book would be sold only to lacrosse players, who all already know about my work.

I will not be continuing this endeavor again next year because I will be several hundred miles away at college!

The mother specifically recruited me through my mother to get photos for the parents, players, and the book - I assume this means they don't have a "replacement" for me. She knew all along that I would be doing it to make profits.

Right now I'm leaning towards asking for a percentage of sales.

[Bon]

as a high-school-age photographer trying to make that change from 'for fun' to 'money making' i understand your predicament very well. It is really hard to go from shooting as much as possible because you love it and enjoy it to, well now I am good enough to make money so i should do that.

I would say, ask for a portion of the sales of these books. Let this woman know how you feel about giving away images, use the analogies used in this thread, make it clear to one person that you want to be pro and word will quickly spread throughout the school. As soon as that happens, and people know that you expect compensation for your hard work, they will understand and hopefully be willing to pay.

EDIT: ps.. get a gear list up! ;)

[GPR1]

Here's my question: are the books being sold for a profit, or are they selling at-cost to the girls?

I agree you deserve payment for your images, but if a mom is creating a book that girls will buy on-line for actual cost, there are no real proceeds for you to share. Then it's a question of whether a parent or parents want to chip-in to pay you a fee. That's not likely.

So you're likely left with these choices:

1. Do not provide the prints. There's no real "bad press" from this since you will be away at college and don't need these customers in the future.

2. Provide them for maximum ad recognition. Again, since you will be away, this is probably really a "tear sheet" for you to show future clients.

3. Provide them because you don't really care. That's not what I hear.

My guess is you're between a rock and hard place.

Greg

[12345Michael54321]

The problem is that a. e-mails have already been sent to the parents of the players, so advertising would be largely useless and I feel that my photos are good enough to warrant payment

That's not a problem. Stop thinking like it is a problem. It's absolutely, 100% okay to decide that you prefer not to give away the fruits of your labors for anything other than actual money.

Politely explain that you prefer not trading your photos for advertising space. If you'd be willing to accept some sort of financial deal based on the number of books sold, or something like that, go ahead and explain to the potential purchaser what you have in mind.

this parent is good friends with my mother.

Then you'd think she'd want to treat you - her friend's child - fairly and in a financially reasonable manner, right?

What does your mother's friend (or the friend's spouse) do for a living? Any possibility of a barter arrangement?

"You want to use my photos for free? Sure, I guess that's okay. Oh, by the way, I understand that your husband's a dentist; I need some work done on my teeth. You're my mom's friend, so it'll be a freebie, right? 'Cause I'm not willing to spend any money on this. I mean, I could provide your husband with some good advertising by telling people who fixed my teeth, but I wouldn't be, you know, like paying him."

Hey, if it's fair to give away your professional services on such a basis, how is it unfair when the situation's reversed?

I never cease to be amazed at how willing some (mostly inexperienced) photographers are to give away their work. How some of them actually seem ashamed to ask for payment.

There's nothing inherently wrong about giving away your work for free, in a good cause. But in the 99.9% of situations where the person who wants your work for free isn't going to be using it to help starving children in Ethiopia or some similarly noble cause, there's nothing at all shameful about you wanting to be paid for your photos.

[ssim]

How about posting your site to feed the inquisitive minds here.

[liza]

Tell them no. I get this same request from well to do parents all the time. I explain to them that I'm not a hobbyist, and I run a business to supplement my meager income as a special ed teacher. I'm not nasty, just matter of fact. :)

[TheChemist]

Thanks for the advice guys. Tomorrow at the game I'm going to speak to her, and find out if the books are being sold at cost or for profit. Otherwise I'm going to politely refuse to give her the images for free. I'm better than that.

[PhotographerS]

I agree. I am the Senior Photographer for my School. I have been asked (on several) different situations about, this topic of letting my photos be released to be used (at no charge) for various publications, such as newspapers, sports guides (local) and even a MSHSAA state publication ('06-'07 Winter). The only one that I have ever given into was the MSHSAA publication, only because; they gave me a really nice (large) credit line.... And that really helped business. I saw a 29.4% increase in business ($$.$$) for the next two or three weeks.

I would ask for a % of the book profit.... However if it was for the cost (non-profit) then I may consider it; on the terms of trying to get the ever so popular "tax-credit" (donation). (If you have made enough to file the long IRS income form)

Good Luck

[S.Horton]

Silence makes a very powerful statement.

The first two times people asked about something like this via e-mail, I let it slide to see if they'd have the courage to ask in person. Neither one did.

The last one did ask for an update. He's a client now. He pays real money.

I've thought a lot about the photography market -- Your photographs belong to moments irrevocably in the past. That is why you have much, much more leverage than you might think.

So, since you have leverage, here's what you can actually do:
1. Take your time
2. Be silent until an offer is on the table, in some form
3. Present two options, both of which are acceptable to you
4. Spend as much time as they'd like discussing both options

Rarely will anyone press for more options. The vast majority make a choice between the two options you presented.

The two options I presented were:
1. Go to the website, download the actual files, pay-per-file
2. CD-ROM, but that would require his time to pick the files first.......

He took the web, because he really needed the photographs. Time was on my side. It is on your side, too.

Good luck, and congrats on a real paying deal!

[S.Horton]

I agree. I am the Senior Photographer for my School. I have been asked (on several) different situations about, this topic of letting my photos be released to be used (at no charge) for various publications, such as newspapers, sports guides (local) and even a MSHSAA state publication ('06-'07 Winter). The only one that I have ever given into was the MSHSAA publication, only because; they gave me a really nice (large) credit line.... And that really helped business. I saw a 29.4% increase in business ($$.$$) for the next two or three weeks.

I would ask for a % of the book profit.... However if it was for the cost (non-profit) then I may consider it; on the terms of trying to get the ever so popular "tax-credit" (donation). (If you have made enough to file the long IRS income form)

Good Luck

I love that tax strategy -- Winner there! Thx for sharing!!

[vwpilot]

It sounds to me like its going to be something that is NOT for profit. My Publisher is a print on demand that makes keepsake books. They are going to get one for the coach and allow the girls to buy them for their own memories from what it sounds like.

Here is what I would do from a business standpoint.

The good publicity can go a long way for you.

I would give her photos for the book. The girls will be able to buy these, the coach will have a copy and your photos will get some good exposure in print.

Then, this is the most important part, have a page in the book with instructions and pricing of how they can order REAL copies of the prints for themselves. Moms, Dads, even the coach, will likely want to purchase prints when they get the small versions in their hands and see how good they are. You might be able to make good money off the endeavor by selling more prints.

If no one buys anything, you really arent out anything, because it sounds like they wouldnt have bought them anyway and they arent going to hold any value beyond their personal use anyway.

Those are my thoughts, make sure you keep us updated on how things turned out.

[TheChemist]

So perhaps give them the photos with a limitation on printed size, then use the space to go from there?

[LBaldwin]

First of all thank your asking the question, that is an imporant step in your evoulition to professional photographer.

2nd the actual sales and marketability of the images is pretty limited to the team and their families, correct?

You need to get paid something for your image otherwise this person may not respect the qualtiy work that should mark the diff between pro and non pro images. That being said it is probably a pipe dream.

Is the org a 501c non-profit? Than perhaps she could give your a receipt for the donation = to the value you state and then you have a write off for your taxes.

Talk to your Mom first to inform her of your decision so that she knows what is coming around the corner at her. That is an aspect regardless of your decision. Trust me this lady knows that you are put into a tough spot, afterall she put you there.

Now it is your turn to take control. Inform her in writing that the images have both an intrinsic as well as a historic value that needs to be considered. Put a value to the images she wants and make sure that you insist on that amount. The books are not free, the printing will cost somebody, the same with the shipping and postage etc.

I love it when a publisher try;s to poor mouth me (welcome to editorial photography) and they drive a nicer car than I do.

Magazines will try that crap every time you call ...

Stick by your guns and make her give you some foldin money for your images, or shop some place else.

Les

[PhotosGuy]

This is all good advice. But I'm still liking my suggestion. She gets a full page of various pics & you get a full page ad at the same time. Win-win.

[TheChemist]

This is all good advice. But I'm still liking my suggestion. She gets a full page of various pics & you get a full page ad at the same time. Win-win.
Like I said the ad would be largely useless because the only audience it would reach is already familiar with my services. I'm going to say that payment is required.

[Hurricane_777]

I love that tax strategy -- Winner there! Thx for sharing!!

Yes, and the crippling audit that will ensue comes free of charge. :lol:

[S.Horton]

Yes, and the crippling audit that will ensue comes free of charge. :lol:

No worries.

That idea will work for anyone who has the photography revenue to deduct it against.

Good documentation is all I'll need. ;)

[freaking102]

Based on your description, the book appears to be a charity/gift type publication -- no one appears to be planning to make money off of the book, except you, the photog. If all students, parents and teachers are doing their share gratis, why should you expect to be the only school-community member that gets to profit? Your schooling should have taught you how to answer the question for yourself.

[Hurricane_777]

No worries.

That idea will work for anyone who has the photography revenue to deduct it against.


To the extent that you've incurred expenses when performing the service (travel, meals and lodging if you're away from home, etc.) you can deduct them. You cannot, however deduct the cost of your time or the cost of the service performed.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p526.pdf

[TheChemist]

Well, today at the game she came up to me. Before I had a chance to voice my concerns, she told me I would be receiving part of the revenue from the books.

That was easy.