Underexposure using a 420EX flash on the 10D

[hhelmbold]

Hi,

I've noted that images are underexposed when I use my Canon 420EX flash with my 10D. I can set the flash exposure to overexpose slightly to fix this, but I'm wondering why this is?

I noted that the Flash zoom is automatically set to the lens zoom setting. Now I also know that the 10D has a 1.6 x magnification when using the normal EOS lenses. Does this have anything to do with the underexposed flash? Because now a 70mm setting on the lens would actually mean that the lens is a 112mm lens but the flash is still set on 70mm.

I suppose this means that the light beam would now actually just be wider, but does the lens zoom setting influence the algorithm used to determine exposure?

Thanks
Heinrich

[DaveG]

Hi,

I've noted that images are underexposed when I use my Canon 420EX flash with my 10D. I can set the flash exposure to overexpose slightly to fix this, but I'm wondering why this is?

I noted that the Flash zoom is automatically set to the lens zoom setting. Now I also know that the 10D has a 1.6 x magnification when using the normal EOS lenses. Does this have anything to do with the underexposed flash? Because now a 70mm setting on the lens would actually mean that the lens is a 112mm lens but the flash is still set on 70mm.

I suppose this means that the light beam would now actually just be wider, but does the lens zoom setting influence the algorithm used to determine exposure?


Thanks
Heinrich

First off, welcome to the club. The E-TTL straight out doesn't work. It's all over the place. You said that it underexposed. Turn around, point it at something else and it may well overexpose by the same amount. I use a 550EX flash and I'm using the +/- control on the flash constantly to correct the exposures. Now in theory using the FEL will correct this but not that I've seen. And not to mention that this pre-flash system confuses subjects, and is simply not practical under any number of shooting situations.

Canon has introduced the E-TTL II in the Mark II and without saying anything they're admitting that there is a big problem with the E-TTL, or why would they fix what isn't broken? I just hope that the E-TTL II a) works and isn't a continuation of this abysmal flash performance and b) it's offered on the 20D (the 10D replacement camera?) in the fall.

The auto zoom feature really won't have much effect on the exposures even though the zoom setting itself is based on a full 24x36 sensor size. It was sloppy of Canon to not have this compensated for, since the lens tells the camera, that tells the flash, how to zoom. So a built in camera-specific zoom bias doesn't look like a difficult fix to me. In any case the under and over exposure is the error of the E-TTL, not the auto zoom.

[G3]

I don't think it's really fair to say that E-TTL doesn't work at all. In some situations, it does work. And, it will usually get you close enough that you can fix it in PS.

There are, however, some situations in which it does not work well. And, I agree, the preflash is annoying at best. Also, I agree that Canon was sloppy in not fixing the auto-zoom disparity.

[Haifidelity]

E-TTL works, but it's a pain in the ass. I'll admit that I was getting underexposed shots and was generally unsatisified with the results with my 10D and 420EX, but after a few months, I was able to get consistent results regardless of it's few quirks.

FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) probably get's me the most consistent results, although the "flash" it emits to get the Exposure can be quite annoying. However, it usually gives me the best results. Focus the center focus point to, say the face of a person, hit FEL and then recompose, focus, etc. and shoot (while the '*' is still in the viewfinder).

When I don't have the convience of FEL, I disable all but the center focus and do the typical 'Meter/Focus, recompose' and the shoot.

You may want to read up on this, if you haven't already:
http://photonotes.org/articles/beginner-faq/flash.html

-hza

[pturton]

The EOS flash system defaults to 'fill' flash when using the Av or Tv modes. With P mode it sets the shutter speed within the range 1/60 -> xsync (1/200 on a 10D) and switches to a fill flash program for scene brightness above 10EV.

To disable this fill flash feature on a 10D, set CFn 14 to 1 (Auto reduction of fill flash - Disable) and CFn 3 to 1 (Flash sync speed in Av mode - 1/200 fixed )

Or, leave the CFn 14 and CFn 3 set at default and just use Manual mode to set your shutter speed and aperture to your liking.

When not using FEL, the flash exposure is metered off the current focus point; if that point is brighter than 18% gray, then the flash will under-expose accordingly. Doing an occasional FEL to check the exposure is a must.

My problem with the 420EX was lack of range when shooting in large dark rooms or bouncing from high ceilings other than that it has worked well for me.

Paul
http://www.iaw.com/~pturton/

[toglenn]

hhelmbold,

You rally don't give much information as to what camera settings you are using. Canon's flash system work fine if you give it a chance.

Try this and see if your flash pictures don't improve;

Set your ISO speed @ 400 or 800 (The 10D is not like a P&S, it has low noise levels at high ISO speeds)

Set the Mode to P and try flash shoots from 4' to 25' and see if they don't work well for you!

toglenn

[robertwgross]

The E-TTL straight out doesn't work.
...
In any case the under and over exposure is the error of the E-TTL, not the auto zoom.

I suppose that you have ruled out user error?

You mentioned exposure compensation, and we understand that you can operate that. The question is this. Do you know how and why and when to do exposure compensation?

If we, as Canon users, just blindly blast away at every subject and try to depend on E-TTL to get it right... well, you will get uneven results.

If you understand exposure compensation and apply it correctly, then it will even out some or all of the "problem".

I generally get problems with E-TTL flash only when I am too lazy to crank in exposure compensation, or when the flash batteries are getting low.

---Bob Gross---

[DaveG]

The E-TTL straight out doesn't work.
...
In any case the under and over exposure is the error of the E-TTL, not the auto zoom.

I suppose that you have ruled out user error?

You mentioned exposure compensation, and we understand that you can operate that. The question is this. Do you know how and why and when to do exposure compensation?

If we, as Canon users, just blindly blast away at every subject and try to depend on E-TTL to get it right... well, you will get uneven results.

If you understand exposure compensation and apply it correctly, then it will even out some or all of the "problem".

I generally get problems with E-TTL flash only when I am too lazy to crank in exposure compensation, or when the flash batteries are getting low.

---Bob Gross---

I'm in a ballroom at a hotel. The guests are coming in and there's a receiving line set up. I have the camera set on ISO 400, manual exposure, 1/60 @ f8. I'm using a 16-36 f2.8 L lens. I use the single shot AF with all of the focusing recticles enabled. The 550EX flash has fully charged batteries, is on a bracket and is pointed directly at the subjects.

Now: It can overexpose, underexpose or expose right on. And it will do all three as I change the shooting angle even a little. Over here I need to add 2/3 of a stop. Then I turn around to shoot a three person group shot and I'll need to subtract a third. Oh, over here it's fine. If I'm trying to do a table shot with a white table cloth then the exposure is + 2 stops. Mostly there are very subtle changes and the camera/flash make exposure decisions that aren't even close.

Now if that's user error then I don't know how to fix it! The good old fashion Automatic from my Vivitar 283 is more consistent. If I shoot at f8 on the flash, I can check and maybe it's hot by 2/3 of a stop. But it's CONSITENTLY hot and I can deal with it.

Now I get good exposures too when I "crank in exposure compensation". But that's not the point. These should be good exposures without having to do that. If you need to crank in adjustments isn't that an admission that the thing doesn't work as advertised? Hence E-TTL II, which to my knowledge is based on subject DISTANCE not reflectance. It must be better than E-TTL just because I can't magine anything worse.

[Scottes]

I've been getting pretty frustrated with my 420EX on my 10D, too. I spent 3 hours shooting butterflies on Manual and it often took 3 or 4 tries before I was happy with the image in the viewfider. Yes, it was usually that noticable.

So, is there any way to disable E-TTL on this rig? Perhaps that's a very bad thing with a "totally automatic" 420EX, but it would then convince me to get a 550EX and just go completely manual.

[robertwgross]

Now I get good exposures too when I "crank in exposure compensation". But that's not the point. These should be good exposures without having to do that.

Dave, you are entitled to your own opinion, even if others do not agree.

---Bob Gross---

[scottbergerphoto]

I've been getting pretty frustrated with my 420EX on my 10D, too. I spent 3 hours shooting butterflies on Manual and it often took 3 or 4 tries before I was happy with the image in the viewfider. Yes, it was usually that noticable.

So, is there any way to disable E-TTL on this rig? Perhaps that's a very bad thing with a "totally automatic" 420EX, but it would then convince me to get a 550EX and just go completely manual.
The 420EX only operates in ETTL. You could get a hot shoe adapter to PC and fire it that way, but it would only fire at maximum power. The 550EX allows you to switch to manual, which is very consistent as long as you watch the distance ranges. There are also excellent 3rd party flashes with auto mode, like Quantum's line of Q flashes, that have manual and auto modes.
Scott

[Scottes]

The 420EX only operates in ETTL.

That's what I figured, but I had to ask.

[DaveG]

Now I get good exposures too when I "crank in exposure compensation". But that's not the point. These should be good exposures without having to do that.

Dave, you are entitled to your own opinion, even if others do not agree.

---Bob Gross---

Yes I am. My opinion is that the ETTL doesn't work. Yours & others (?) seem to be that it's OK that it doesn't work. I like my opinion better.

[Cordell]

DaveG,
I believe it can be an issue of "how it works", not that ETTL doesn't work. Think about this; someone who has always driven an automobile with an automatic transmission gets into a manual transmission automobile, places it in gear 1, hits the gas and things go crazy. I'm sure you know what they will say: It doesn' work! What would your response be to them??

My response is that it is a different technology. Learn what you should do to make it do what you want it to do to get your results. ETTL is not technology from the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc, so it works a little to a lot different depending on what you are used to. Learn it's ways and you have learned a lot about how "IT" works. It's simply different.

Cordell

[robertwgross]

Exactly.

Many of us grew up in the pre-digital days, and we knew how the old Vivitar flashes did auto-flash. Of course, then later on film cameras were metering off the reflected light from the film surface.

Then some of us got into digital. On this forum we had to go back and forth for a while until we had it understood how E-TTL worked, in detail. Not how well it worked, but the mechanism of how it worked.

After that, we all go off and practice until we understand the limitations of E-TTL and (more importantly) how to predict a tough shot and how to work around the tough shot and still get it right.

---Bob Gross---

[u02bnpx]

Things are getting pretty contentious here, but, for what it's worth, some who have posted on this site may want to check out a mini-fracas I started at FM's forum: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/84878

Meanwhile, keep 'em coming. By the way, the best advice I seem to have gotten from the FM forum is to use custom functions 4.1 (focus with *) and 14.1 (disables auto fill flash). These hints haven't brought me to nirvana with the 550EX, but at least I seem to have climbed out of the deepest recesses of photography hell.


Floyd Lawrence

[DaveG]

DaveG,
I believe it can be an issue of "how it works", not that ETTL doesn't work. Think about this; someone who has always driven an automobile with an automatic transmission gets into a manual transmission automobile, places it in gear 1, hits the gas and things go crazy. I'm sure you know what they will say: It doesn' work! What would your response be to them??


Cordell
I think that the analogy is that you put the car into first and then it jumps to fifth, and then reverse and then to third.

This is not me complaining about a third of stop error. It's that the error can be in stops and that it seems to vary for no reason.

Sure there are work-arounds, and as I say I play the +/- button like a piano. But again my point is: You should be able to focus on a subject and have the flash output correctly without more than a third of a stop - plus or minus - variation. If this is impossible then Canon should maybe rethink their claims of "refined E-TTL autoflash for improved performance."

[AzzKicker]

I shot pictures at a wedding with my 300D and 420ex and I was very pissed at the results. OUTSIDE the fill flash was awesome and gave me AWESOME images. INSIDE in the darker room was another story.


HOWEVER!!! since using the FECset program or FEC hack for the 300d and bumping it up +2/3 I've had good results.

[G3]

I shot pictures at a wedding with my 300D and 420ex and I was very pissed at the results. OUTSIDE the fill flash was awesome and gave me AWESOME images. INSIDE in the darker room was another story.


HOWEVER!!! since using the FECset program or FEC hack for the 300d and bumping it up +2/3 I've had good results.

CF 14 helps this issue also......

[jyrgen]

I'm a total newbie in photography, but I dare to express my opinion - inconsistency in exposure (especially flash, but also without flash) is related to using evaluative metering. I've understood that's because evaluative metering is very strongly biased towards focus point. Now, if you have all focus points active, you basically increase inconsistency 7 times. You point the camera to group of people, they all are more or less same distance from camera, so any focusing point can be equally chosen by camera and you have no way to predict whether that will be pointed to dark cloth of one person, light cloth of another or middle-toned face of third.

I could be wrong, too.

[robertwgross]

I'm a total newbie in photography, but I dare to express my opinion - inconsistency in exposure (especially flash, but also without flash) is related to using evaluative metering. I've understood that's because evaluative metering is very strongly biased towards focus point.

I agree, and I think the hotel ballroom example is the likely place for focus points to get complex and therefore E-TTL struggles at times. Especially for moving subjects.

---Bob Gross---

[Tom W]

I'm a total newbie in photography, but I dare to express my opinion - inconsistency in exposure (especially flash, but also without flash) is related to using evaluative metering. I've understood that's because evaluative metering is very strongly biased towards focus point.

I agree, and I think the hotel ballroom example is the likely place for focus points to get complex and therefore E-TTL struggles at times. Especially for moving subjects.

---Bob Gross---

In my relatively short experience, I have struggled with E-TTL in the faster-moving situations. I had enough sense (or lack thereof) to use the center focus point most of the time, and had generally consistent results. But E-ttl had some tough spots for me - my shooting style is something on the order of "focus, compose, and release the trigger".

In other words, if my subject isn't going to be in the center of my picture, I prefocus, then recompose and fire the shot. Unfortunately, E-ttl doesn't know that you've recomposed and will calculate light based on where the active focus point is at the time of shutter release. So if its a strong backlight, you'll need to dial in some quick compensation. Ditto for dark suits or white dresses.

I'm still learning and getting a feel for it, as my flash opportunities aren't frequent enough to get some good practice.


BTW, its been folks here that have helped me immensely with my occasional photographic woes, particularly when they involve E-TTL.

[robertwgross]

I'm still learning and getting a feel for it, as my flash opportunities aren't frequent enough to get some good practice.


Try shooting about 200 shots at a wedding, and see what comes out of it.

Then, once you return from therapy over those results, you practice some more. Eventually, you earn enough from your wedding photography business that you can pay for your therapy.

---Bob Gross---

[Tom W]

I'm still learning and getting a feel for it, as my flash opportunities aren't frequent enough to get some good practice.


Try shooting about 200 shots at a wedding, and see what comes out of it.

Then, once you return from therapy over those results, you practice some more. Eventually, you earn enough from your wedding photography business that you can pay for your therapy.

---Bob Gross---

Now that you mention it, I do have exactly 1 (one) wedding under my belt, taken for a relative (for free and worth every penny of it).

OT joke: What is the definition of relative humidity?

The sweat that forms on Tom W's brow as he takes wedding pictures for his sister with a newly purchased 10D. :)

And that wedding was a very good learning experience for me. That 1 hour ceremony was the fastest 10 minutes of my life. Fortunately, I had enough ambient light to shoot sans flash inside the church and resorted to flash only at the small reception.

Somewhere in the archives of this site is a thread I started illustrating some of the lessons that I learned in that experience. E-TTL was the subject of at least a couple of them.

[G3]

I'm still learning and getting a feel for it, as my flash opportunities aren't frequent enough to get some good practice.


Try shooting about 200 shots at a wedding, and see what comes out of it.

Then, once you return from therapy over those results, you practice some more. Eventually, you earn enough from your wedding photography business that you can pay for your therapy.

---Bob Gross---

That just about sums it up.

[scottbergerphoto]

Just thought that I'd mention that one way of improving the consistency of ETTL is to switch to Manual Focus before you shoot. Switching to Manual Focus forces the camera to average all the exposure points with the preflash, rather then overweighting the center area. This was covered extensively on the Canon forums at www.RobGalbraith.com.
Scott

[G3]

Just thought that I'd mention that one way of improving the consistency of ETTL is to switch to Manual Focus before you shoot. Switching to Manual Focus forces the camera to average all the exposure points with the preflash, rather then overweighting the center area. This was covered extensively on the Canon forums at www.RobGalbraith.com.
Scott

Maybe that's why I don't have so much trouble with it? I almost always use manual focus in low light situations. I've found autofocus to be more trouble than it's worth in low light. A lot of times I just put it in Program mode, shift the program (if necessary) to f8 or f11 and zone focus.

[Scottes]

Yeah, I usually use Manual, too. But one of Scott's remarks the other day about distance really tipped me off about close subjects like butterflies that I've been shooting. Next time I'll back up a bit and see what happens.

[DaveG]

Just thought that I'd mention that one way of improving the consistency of ETTL is to switch to Manual Focus before you shoot. Switching to Manual Focus forces the camera to average all the exposure points with the preflash, rather then overweighting the center area. This was covered extensively on the Canon forums at www.RobGalbraith.com.
Scott

So in order to use the incredibly advanced E-TTL successfully you have to turn the camera into a manual focus type? Funny, I've never read any Canon literature extolling that feature. Hmm, I wonder why?

A little less cynically: One of the GREAT features of the 10D and a flash is that it'll take completely focused images in total darkness if you have the camera set up right. So although you may well be right that the flash would work better without AF, and it may be a work-around solution, it's still no excuse for E-TTL being as bad as it is.

[jyrgen]

It does not have to be switched literally to Manual focus though. Setting focusing to "*" button with CF4 has the same effect, and I think also using FTM, i.e. manually correcting results of autofocus has the same effect. They make the camera choose a much more consistent metering pattern, instead of strongly focus point biased one.

I agree that the need to use such workarounds sucks.

[hhelmbold]

hhelmbold,

You rally don't give much information as to what camera settings you are using. Canon's flash system work fine if you give it a chance.

Try this and see if your flash pictures don't improve;

Set your ISO speed @ 400 or 800 (The 10D is not like a P&S, it has low noise levels at high ISO speeds)

Set the Mode to P and try flash shoots from 4' to 25' and see if they don't work well for you!

toglenn

I think I have learned a heck of a lot from all the replies. Just to clarify... I use the camera in M mode. Set the shutter to about 1/60 and then use the apropriate aperture depending on depth of field etc.

Using the camera in P mode is actually like taking a picture and guessing what the result will be - so that option is a big no for me. As to using the camera in ISO 400 or even 800 is also not an option. Noise is most definately an issue on the 10D especially at ISO 800. Up to ISO 400 the noise is relatively low compared to film, but at 800 it is very visible in the 10" x 15" enlargements I use.

I think FEL for now is going to be my best bet on improving results with the flash. I could get good consistant results in the past by using the +/- exposure compensation. I just had to know why the results differed so much if I shot using the settings the camera considered to be spot on.

[DaveG]

It does not have to be switched literally to Manual focus though. Setting focusing to "*" button with CF4 has the same effect, and I think also using FTM, i.e. manually correcting results of autofocus has the same effect. They make the camera choose a much more consistent metering pattern, instead of strongly focus point biased one.

I agree that the need to use such workarounds sucks.

I've been using the * for back focus for months. It doesn't help.

[G3]

I think I have learned a heck of a lot from all the replies. Just to clarify... I use the camera in M mode. Set the shutter to about 1/60 and then use the apropriate aperture depending on depth of field etc.

Using the camera in P mode is actually like taking a picture and guessing what the result will be - so that option is a big no for me. As to using the camera in ISO 400 or even 800 is also not an option. Noise is most definately an issue on the 10D especially at ISO 800. Up to ISO 400 the noise is relatively low compared to film, but at 800 it is very visible in the 10" x 15" enlargements I use.

I think FEL for now is going to be my best bet on improving results with the flash. I could get good consistant results in the past by using the +/- exposure compensation. I just had to know why the results differed so much if I shot using the settings the camera considered to be spot on.


Why is "P" mode guessing? I could undertstand that for "A" mode. In Program mode, you can shift the program to the shutter speed or aperture you want. If you are using flash, you are only metering for the background anyway. It's still the same meter and algorithms used in "M" mode to calculate the exposure. The only difference is that in "M" mode you read the meter and change the shutter speed or aperture to arrive at the proper exposure. In program mode you shift the aperture or shutter to your preference and the camera makes the other adjustment for you based on the same information. In "A" mode, the camera is going to control both, so you can't shift it....I can understand why you wouldn't want to use that. To me, "P" mode is like using either aperture priority or shutter priority, and deciding which to use at the time of the shot. If you want to control DOF, then you shift the aperture. If you want to, say, drag the shutter, then you shift the shutter speed to what you want. For me it's quicker because you don't have to really think about it much. In manual mode, if you choose a shutter speed or aperture for which the camera cannot choose a complement that will give you proper exposure, all you get is a flashing display but the camera will still fire the shutter for you. In "P" mode, if you try to choose a shutter speed, for instance, for which the camera cannot match the aperture, you will not be able to get to that shutter speed.

[hhelmbold]

I think I have learned a heck of a lot from all the replies. Just to clarify... I use the camera in M mode. Set the shutter to about 1/60 and then use the apropriate aperture depending on depth of field etc.

Using the camera in P mode is actually like taking a picture and guessing what the result will be - so that option is a big no for me. As to using the camera in ISO 400 or even 800 is also not an option. Noise is most definately an issue on the 10D especially at ISO 800. Up to ISO 400 the noise is relatively low compared to film, but at 800 it is very visible in the 10" x 15" enlargements I use.

I think FEL for now is going to be my best bet on improving results with the flash. I could get good consistant results in the past by using the +/- exposure compensation. I just had to know why the results differed so much if I shot using the settings the camera considered to be spot on.


Why is "P" mode guessing? I could undertstand that for "A" mode. In Program mode, you can shift the program to the shutter speed or aperture you want. If you are using flash, you are only metering for the background anyway. It's still the same meter and algorithms used in "M" mode to calculate the exposure. The only difference is that in "M" mode you read the meter and change the shutter speed or aperture to arrive at the proper exposure. In program mode you shift the aperture or shutter to your preference and the camera makes the other adjustment for you based on the same information. In "A" mode, the camera is going to control both, so you can't shift it....I can understand why you wouldn't want to use that. To me, "P" mode is like using either aperture priority or shutter priority, and deciding which to use at the time of the shot. If you want to control DOF, then you shift the aperture. If you want to, say, drag the shutter, then you shift the shutter speed to what you want. For me it's quicker because you don't have to really think about it much. In manual mode, if you choose a shutter speed or aperture for which the camera cannot choose a complement that will give you proper exposure, all you get is a flashing display but the camera will still fire the shutter for you. In "P" mode, if you try to choose a shutter speed, for instance, for which the camera cannot match the aperture, you will not be able to get to that shutter speed.

Okay... I made a mistake. I started on a Pentax camera and the P mode was the same as the Auto mode on the Canon ;-) So that is why I said it is guessing. I will give the P mode a try and see what happens, but I still feel that it's not the solution. According to the P mode description the camera sets the aperture and shutterspeed according to the brightness of the subject and the lash has to be set manually. I have a feeling that P mode overrides any setting you set manually for the aperture etc. But I will experiment before I judge.

[G3]

Okay... I made a mistake. I started on a Pentax camera and the P mode was the same as the Auto mode on the Canon ;-) So that is why I said it is guessing. I will give the P mode a try and see what happens, but I still feel that it's not the solution. According to the P mode description the camera sets the aperture and shutterspeed according to the brightness of the subject and the lash has to be set manually. I have a feeling that P mode overrides any setting you set manually for the aperture etc. But I will experiment before I judge.

No. In "P" mode, the camera will initially choose a shutter speed and aperture that gives a proper exposure for the meter reading at the chosen ISO. If you want to switch to your preferred aperture, you turn the main dial until you find the aperture you want and the camera shifts the shutter along with you. If you want to switch to your preferred shutter, turn the back dial until you find the shutter speed you want and the camera will shift the aperture along with you. It's like having either aperture priority or shutter priority without having to change between them. Read the section of the manual on "shifting the program".

[scottbergerphoto]

These two threads from Rob Galbraith's forum are directly on point.
1. http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=227234&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1
2. http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=137317&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1
Scott

[Tom W]

Okay... I made a mistake. I started on a Pentax camera and the P mode was the same as the Auto mode on the Canon ;-) So that is why I said it is guessing. I will give the P mode a try and see what happens, but I still feel that it's not the solution. According to the P mode description the camera sets the aperture and shutterspeed according to the brightness of the subject and the lash has to be set manually. I have a feeling that P mode overrides any setting you set manually for the aperture etc. But I will experiment before I judge.

Actually, in P mode, your camera sets aperture and shutter, but allows you to change things by shifting the program. Ordinarily, you can shift the program by adjusting the aperture or shutter - the camera will respond by adjusting the other component to retain proper exposure, until the limitations of the camera shutter speed and/or lens aperture are reached.

However, when you turn the flash on with the camera in "P" mode, the camera will select an appropriate shutter and aperture for flash exposure. Mine seems to select 1/60, f/4.0 for most indoor situations until available lighting becomes bright enough that the camera switches to fill-flash mode in which the aperture is decreased and/or the shutter speed is increased by the camera up to 1/200 sec. You cannot shift the program in flash mode.

[scottbergerphoto]

Okay... I made a mistake. I started on a Pentax camera and the P mode was the same as the Auto mode on the Canon ;-) So that is why I said it is guessing. I will give the P mode a try and see what happens, but I still feel that it's not the solution. According to the P mode description the camera sets the aperture and shutterspeed according to the brightness of the subject and the lash has to be set manually. I have a feeling that P mode overrides any setting you set manually for the aperture etc. But I will experiment before I judge.

Actually, in P mode, your camera sets aperture and shutter, but allows you to change things by shifting the program. Ordinarily, you can shift the program by adjusting the aperture or shutter - the camera will respond by adjusting the other component to retain proper exposure, until the limitations of the camera shutter speed and/or lens aperture are reached.

However, when you turn the flash on with the camera in "P" mode, the camera will select an appropriate shutter and aperture for flash exposure. Mine seems to select 1/60, f/4.0 for most indoor situations until available lighting becomes bright enough that the camera switches to fill-flash mode in which the aperture is decreased and/or the shutter speed is increased by the camera up to 1/200 sec. You cannot shift the program in flash mode.
The Program mode on camera when using flash limits the useable shutter speed range to 1/60 to 1/200 sec. That keeps it in a range to prevent a blurry picture from too slow a shutter speed and below the max sync speed. In most indoor situations, the ambient light is low, so it looks like the camera is defaulting to 1/60, but in actuality it's just that it isn't allowed to go any lower by the programming. To prove it, point your camera with the flash up in a dark room during the day. Slowly move the camera to the window. The meter will go from 1/60 up to 1/200 as you move the lens closer to the window.
Scott

[G3]

Okay... I made a mistake. I started on a Pentax camera and the P mode was the same as the Auto mode on the Canon ;-) So that is why I said it is guessing. I will give the P mode a try and see what happens, but I still feel that it's not the solution. According to the P mode description the camera sets the aperture and shutterspeed according to the brightness of the subject and the lash has to be set manually. I have a feeling that P mode overrides any setting you set manually for the aperture etc. But I will experiment before I judge.

Actually, in P mode, your camera sets aperture and shutter, but allows you to change things by shifting the program. Ordinarily, you can shift the program by adjusting the aperture or shutter - the camera will respond by adjusting the other component to retain proper exposure, until the limitations of the camera shutter speed and/or lens aperture are reached.

However, when you turn the flash on with the camera in "P" mode, the camera will select an appropriate shutter and aperture for flash exposure. Mine seems to select 1/60, f/4.0 for most indoor situations until available lighting becomes bright enough that the camera switches to fill-flash mode in which the aperture is decreased and/or the shutter speed is increased by the camera up to 1/200 sec. You cannot shift the program in flash mode.

Hmmm...mine sure works differently. It does choose 1/60th for most indoor situations, but it will allow you to change the aperture (using the back dial).

[Tom W]

The Program mode on camera when using flash limits the useable shutter speed range to 1/60 to 1/200 sec. That keeps it in a range to prevent a blurry picture from too slow a shutter speed and below the max sync speed. In most indoor situations, the ambient light is low, so it looks like the camera is defaulting to 1/60, but in actuality it's just that it isn't allowed to go any lower by the programming. To prove it, point your camera with the flash up in a dark room during the day. Slowly move the camera to the window. The meter will go from 1/60 up to 1/200 as you move the lens closer to the window.
Scott

I did that, and it does that. :)

And you're right - I wouldn't ordinarily want a shutter speed lower than 1/60 with flash unless I had specific intentions. In that case, I'd go to Tv mode.

[msvadi]

Interesting. If one reads the G-series board he finds tons of users satisfied by G/420EX combo and ETTL. I just recently moved from there to the EOS board, and I'm quite surprised to see that, basically, a totally opposite opinion dominates here.

I have a DRebel and a 420EX. I have to admit that I miss FEC I used to have with G2, but I also, practically, stopped to use the flash (even before I switched to a DSLR). Nothing is better than the natural light ;) On the other hand, I don't have to shot weddings or receptions ;)

[Ballen Photo]

The good old fashion Automatic from my Vivitar 283 is more consistent. If I shoot at f8 on the flash, I can check and maybe it's hot by 2/3 of a stop. But it's CONSITENTLY hot and I can deal with it.


Dave, Have you actually used the Vivitar 283 on your Canon 10D? The reason I ask is just to verify if it's safe to use on the 10D, or G-5. Does anyone know anything about this? A safe trigger voltage for the EOS system is what?
I have a 283 complete with the accessory colored gel kit and diffusers, and have been firing it with a peanut slave for fill or whatever. For the record, I have the 550EX for my main flash, but would like to know if I can safely use the 283 also. I have used this flash successfully on my old Olympus E-10 in manual mode as well as Thyristor automatic.
Thanks in advance for any useful information and replies on this subject.
........Bruce

[robertwgross]

Does anyone know anything about this? A safe trigger voltage for the EOS system is what?


Only 5-6 volts DC on Canon EOS digitals.

I have an old Vivitar with about 170 volts on it, and I dare not use it.

---Bob Gross---

[Ballen Photo]

Only 5-6 volts DC on Canon EOS digitals.

I have an old Vivitar with about 170 volts on it, and I dare not use it.

---Bob Gross---

Thanks Robert, I have checked the flash once before, for compatibility to the Oly E-10, and it seems the voltage was around 6v. I've heard there is a big difference from flash to flash. :shock: Time to dig out both the 283 and my Fluke 12. :D :shock: :D
........Bruce

[slejhamer]

I have a 283 complete with the accessory colored gel kit and diffusers, and have been firing it with a peanut slave for fill or whatever.

Bruce, to trigger the 283, does the 550 have to be in manual mode (no pre-flash)? I can not get my 283 to sync with my 420, though I've tried both the regular and "digital" peanut slaves. Thanks.

[scottbergerphoto]

I have a 283 complete with the accessory colored gel kit and diffusers, and have been firing it with a peanut slave for fill or whatever.

Bruce, to trigger the 283, does the 550 have to be in manual mode (no pre-flash)? I can not get my 283 to sync with my 420, though I've tried both the regular and "digital" peanut slaves. Thanks.
Two things:
1. The peanut slave will not work on a 550 unless you want to turn the 550 off and on after each shot.
2. If you are using a flash in ETTL mode to trigger a non ETTL flash that is slaved, you have to use a slave that ignores the preflash like a Wein Digital Slave. To avoid that, put both on Manual Mode. No Preflash in Manual Mode.
Scott

[DaveG]

The good old fashion Automatic from my Vivitar 283 is more consistent. If I shoot at f8 on the flash, I can check and maybe it's hot by 2/3 of a stop. But it's CONSITENTLY hot and I can deal with it.


Dave, Have you actually used the Vivitar 283 on your Canon 10D? The reason I ask is just to verify if it's safe to use on the 10D, or G-5. Does anyone know anything about this? A safe trigger voltage for the EOS system is what?
I have a 283 complete with the accessory colored gel kit and diffusers, and have been firing it with a peanut slave for fill or whatever. For the record, I have the 550EX for my main flash, but would like to know if I can safely use the 283 also. I have used this flash successfully on my old Olympus E-10 in manual mode as well as Thyristor automatic.
Thanks in advance for any useful information and replies on this subject.
........Bruce

I used the Vivitar 283 a few times without a safe synch, then I got the 550EX and
the 283 went unused. But lately I've been using the 283 again as it's more
consistent than the 550. Now I use my Wein Safe Synch. I have no idea if the
voltage from the 283 will hurt the 10D but why take a chance?

Has it occurred to anyone that this voltage issue is the camera manufacturers
fault? For years Nikon, Canon, Mamiya and all the rest have been using old
strobes and the like without any fear of harming those cameras.

Then along comes digital which is allegedly more sensitive to high synch voltage
and then there's an alleged problem. Has anyone first hand information about
frying a digital camera with a strobe? Not “I heard from a friend that this guy in
Texas ...”

Anyway there' ABSOLUTELY NO WARNING in the 10D's instruction book on
this point except to say that some old strobe flashes may have the wrong polarity
and won’t work. The fix as I see it, would to have a resister integrated into the
synch circuit which (as nearly as I can figure out) is what a safe synch does?

Why have a straight out synch terminal in the 10D if you can't - or shouldn't - use
it? Surely Canon could build in a little bit better voltage protection or come out
and say that this whole issue is urban myth. Meanwhile I’ll use my safe synch.

[slejhamer]

Two things:


Thanks Scott. I wasn't trying to do #1 :lol: but your point is well taken. In my case the slave is attached to my 283 and I'm trying to trigger it with a 420 which of course can not be set manually. I have the Wein Digital Peanut but I still can't get it to sync ... I have corresponded with Wein and their only suggestion is to invest in their more-expensive digital slave unit - not the answer I was hoping for... More likely I will get a safe sync and fire the 283 that way. Thanks again.

[u02bnpx]

For well over a year, I used a Wein safe-sync to attach a StudioMax 150ws monolight to my D30. Also used two other identical, slaved monolights. Using a flash meter for settings, I got marvelous results and no frying. I had checked, of course, with both Canon and Photographer's Warehouse, who sells the monolights. Canon was, predictably, noncommittal: "Well, of course, we can't guarantee that you WON'T fry the camera, etc., etc."

The monolight people, however, said, no problemo, even without the safe-sync. Still, because I knew they wouldn't replace a fried D30, I used the safe-sync...with great results.

Now that I have the 10D, however, I'm reluctant to use anything but my 550 on it. Can we hear from anyone who has in fact been fried? Or is this all, as someone wrote above, so much urban legend perpetuated by Canon to ensure continued sale of its products? Sure would like to try the monolights again, but on a 10D.

Floyd Lawrence

[robertwgross]

Time to dig out both the 283 and my Fluke 12.


You can discover lots of things with a Fluke 12.

I go back to the old Simpson days (black and analog).

---Bob Gross---

[Ballen Photo]

The peanut slave will not work on a 550 unless you want to turn the 550 off and on after each shot.
2. If you are using a flash in ETTL mode to trigger a non ETTL flash that is slaved, you have to use a slave that ignores the preflash like a Wein Digital Slave. To avoid that, put both on Manual Mode. No Preflash in Manual Mode.
Scott

Sorry about the confusion I seem to have created here, I should have been more specific. When using the peanut slave, the 550EX was set to manual, and I used the percentage flash reduction on the 550 to get the amount of light I desired. The peanut/283 is fired strictly via light emitted from the 550.
My original rambling was only to find out if the 283 could be used in a pinch as a back up strobe safely, as well as pinch hit from the G-5.
I actually bought the 550EX before I had either the 10D or G-5, since I knew I was going to go that route. Meanwhile when my only DSLR was an Olympus E-10, I had to get creative, and used the E-10 with the 550 in manual on both. This system worked very well, but now I'm once again all Canon EOS. :D :D :D I still have my EOS film equipment; A2e, Elan IIe, 630, and various others. :shock: :shock: :shock:
PS, I'm looking strongly at the 420EX too.
.........Bruce