Indoor real estate photos with flash

[jcospolich]

i am an amateur photographer and I shoot many properties for website-only listings. My main equip is a 400D/Xti, 10-22mm USM lens, and 580EX flash. Since I only shoot for websites (and will not need the detail needed for prints/enlargements), most of my photos get compressed down to about 400x270px, and maybe under 50KB. I have in the past had the most luck with indoor shots in the 11-13mm range, the FEC on the 580EX turned up +1, Av settings, and from there just tweaking the ISO and hand-holding. Since I shoot so many properties, I do not want to spend harldy any time in post processing/Photoshop. Any other advice with settings? I do not have the time to tripod shoot every shot, PS manipulate afterwards, etc..

[jcospolich]

i also usually turn on all lights and open up all window treatments when possible, shooting during the daytime.

[DAMphyne]

Do you have problems with the windows being "Burned-out" with the outside light?
That seems to be the biggest problem I have when doing interiors.
I've seen photographers block the light from outside with paperboard to elimanate this problem. That does require the use of interior lighting of course.
David

[In2Photos]

M mode, f/11, 1/200, ISO200, FEC +1. Flash pointed at ceiling (if not too tall and is a nuetral color). Take a shot, look at the histogram and adjust FEC if needed.

[jcospolich]

I would think ISO 200 and f11 might produce too dark of an image, but perhaps with the flash it is a non-issue. I also thought that to ensure that the DoF was good for the whole room, I would be better off with a lower f stop.

I always thought that the lowest possible F stop the lens provides (3.5 for the 10-22 USM) would be a good starting point. But I suppose f3.5 would not allow me to hand hold as easily.

But I will give that a go, F11 at 1/200. FEC+1.

[In2Photos]

I would think ISO 200 and f11 might produce too dark of an image, but perhaps with the flash it is a non-issue. I also thought that to ensure that the DoF was good for the whole room, I would be better off with a lower f stop.

I always thought that the lowest possible F stop the lens provides (3.5 for the 10-22 USM) would be a good starting point. But I suppose f3.5 would not allow me to hand hold as easily.

But I will give that a go, F11 at 1/200. FEC+1.

You have your idea of f-stops backwards. The lower the number the larger the aperture, therefore the shallower the DOF. F-stops are a ratio, remember it is f/3.5, not f3.5. So f/11 has a greater DOF than f/3.5. As for the lighting, the flash should illuminate the room unless it is a large room. Then increase your ISO to increase the flash's effectiveness.

[SWPhotoImaging]

I just hope you are better than the clown that our realtor sent in to shoot our house. I tried to offer her to shoot it myself and give her the photos for free, but she "had a professional" that does all her homes for her.

Lousy shots from a camera with a not-wide-enough lens, ruined by too much shadow lightening, and turned out with weird color. If I was looking for a house, I would not be inclined to want to see mine based on the photos.

[jcospolich]

thanks In2Photos and SWPhoto. Another important point is that it is not efficient for me to post process these images much at all. I have over 150 properties to shoot for one mgmt company, and the turnaround time is short. I will let you know what I achieve.

[jcospolich]

what advantage would I gain at ISO200 over 400? just a bit more clear, less noisy of an image? that would make sense. Sharpness is key, but then again, my pics are almost always resized by MLS and/or other websites.

[jcospolich]

and DAMphyne, I do often have burnt out windows, but it is not efficient (time poverty) for me to Photoconverge or try mult exposures to have both indoor and outdoor correctly exposed. More importantly, I need to show detail, so I would prefer to correctly expose indoor. For an exterior, I might try a more emotional look, maybe sunset/twilight with exterior lighting on the home.

[In2Photos]

what advantage would I gain at ISO200 over 400? just a bit more clear, less noisy of an image? that would make sense. Sharpness is key, but then again, my pics are almost always resized by MLS and/or other websites.
Yes, less noise. But the flash will have to work harder. If it is taking a long time for the flash to recycle increase the ISO to 400. I doubt you will have noise trouble if you expose properly.

[jcospolich]

seems like I often need f/8 and ISO400 for a bright enough image. I don't think FEC, even at +3, would lighten up my image enough at F/11 and ISO200.

[In2Photos]

seems like I often need f/8 and ISO400 for a bright enough image. I don't think FEC, even at +3, would lighten up my image enough at F/11 and ISO200.
Try it. You can do it in any room. You don't have to wait until you go out to the houses. When using a flash in ETTL with the camera in M mode you are letting the flash dictate your exposure. The camera sends a pre-flash before the shutter is opened to determine how much flash to use. FEC only tells the flash that we want to over or underexpose an image. So if the flash emits 1/4 power at 1/200, f/11, ISO200 then FEC +1 tells the flash to emit 1/2 power at the same settings (one stop is twice the power). Again, try it and see hwat you get before you go out. Those settings I gave are a starting point, not the end-all be-all. Each house will be slightly (or greatly) different depending on several factors. You are used to using Av mode which uses the flash as fill, not a main source of light. The flash is most likely barely firing. Try it.;)

[jcospolich]

try it as in....lowering f stop (larger aperture)? and/or raising ISO?

[In2Photos]

try it as in....lowering f stop (larger aperture)? and/or raising ISO?
Try it as is first, then adjust if needed. If needed, adjust your ISO first, then use a larger aperture if you still need more. If after all that ou still need more then decrease your shutter speed and rely on some of the ambient light. The problem with relying on ambient lighting and flash is the difference in color temp. It can produce some odd results, especially if the room has mixed lighting as well.

[jcospolich]

thanks In2Photos. Shooting around 12mm (10-22mm lens) I did try it as is (f11, 1/200, ISO200, FEC+1, bounce flash). should I pull out the panel and try direct flash, which I normally don't like? I can post a pic on here for you to check out.

That was my next question. Beginning to understand the relationships b/w aperture, shutter speed, ISO...I was going to ask which to adjust first, as they all affect each other.
I usu shoot in auto white balance (rookie move), but sometime change to cloudy for a more saturated look. Since I shoot many many properties, I prefer not to post process, so I also don't shoot in RAW very often.

[jcospolich]

I will try it and post one, playing with ISO first if need be. I was wondering which of the three (aper, shutter, ISO) you'd recommend adjusting first, as they obviously all affect the other. Since I am an amateur, I typically don't play much with white bal, just shooting auto mode. I also don't shoot RAW or tripod, since I have a humongous workload (and a FT job and fmly).

[In2Photos]

thanks In2Photos. Shooting around 12mm (10-22mm lens) I did try it as is (f11, 1/200, ISO200, FEC+1, bounce flash). should I pull out the panel and try direct flash, which I normally don't like? I can post a pic on here for you to check out.

That was my next question. Beginning to understand the relationships b/w aperture, shutter speed, ISO...I was going to ask which to adjust first, as they all affect each other.
I usu shoot in auto white balance (rookie move), but sometime change to cloudy for a more saturated look. Since I shoot many many properties, I prefer not to post process, so I also don't shoot in RAW very often.
Yes, post it. I don't recommend using the wide panel and shooting direct. You might get some bad shadows. You could however pull out the card on the back of your 580 to direct a little flash forward.

As far as WB goes you could try Auto (which I only like outdoors) or use the Flash (which should be pretty close since the flash will be your main light source) or cloudy if you like that. Just be consistent with the one that works best.

[jcospolich]

here are the first 2.
both in M, f/11, 1/200, FEC+1, Flash white balance.

ISO200 is of course ISO200, then a 400.

they're both very dark. i'll post an 800 and 1600ISO next...

[jcospolich]

I tried focusing on a darker area of the room to see if that helped due to the bright window light.

here are the ISO 800 and 1600 ones, again with same f/11, 1/200, FEC+1.

[jcospolich]

another try below.

this one is at f/10, 1/160, FEC+1, ISO 400, flash WB.

since my pics are often under 400x300px (very often 395x263 due to our county's MLS software), I don't think ISO 800 would be a problem. I can see ISO 1600, even at this small image size, begins to look too noisy.

so as you can see above, with f/11, 1/200, FEC+1, flash WB, ISO 800 - it is still too dark.
since I have maxed out ISO at 800 for my own sake, what would I adjust next? aperture or shutter?

[jcospolich]

in all the above, flash was pointed straight up, with white card pulled up. One prob I think also is that the ceiling has a weird vault, and, more importantly, is pained a very dark gray color. So maybe FEC+2 or +3, or should I continue to tweak aperture and shutter, assuming I don't want to budge past ISO 800? and why wouldn't I keep ISO at 200 or 400, and just change aperture/shutter?

[René Damkot]

Well, since your Xti uses ETTL2, focussing elsewhere won't alter flash exposure: ETTL2 works independent of AF point.
Setting a higher ISO or wider aperture also affects ambient exposure only, since the flash exposure is regulated by ETTL2.

Ambient exposure is best in the last two IMO.

I'd use f/11, 1/60, ISO 400. (same ambient exposure as 1/250, f/11, ISO 1600, so a bit darker then the lightest one you posted)

You could either set the flash on manual as well, and use chimping to get the right output, or use a lot more FEC. Another opton is removing the picture frame on the wall ;)

I think the underexposure is caused by the flash reflecting straight back into the camera in the image next to the window. In a situation like that it's allways a guess whether ETTL will ignore the reflection or not.

[In2Photos]

in all the above, flash was pointed straight up, with white card pulled up. One prob I think also is that the ceiling has a weird vault, and, more importantly, is pained a very dark gray color. So maybe FEC+2 or +3, or should I continue to tweak aperture and shutter, assuming I don't want to budge past ISO 800? and why wouldn't I keep ISO at 200 or 400, and just change aperture/shutter?
Rene posted some great info for you above. To add to that the very dark grey ceiling is a problem. Light doesn't bounce off of dark colors, it is absorbed.

[jcospolich]

thanks to both of you. I will try all of these methods out. I know it's not "cool," esp on this forum, but should I look past the fact that I can often get good, quick results shooting in P mode with flash on auto? With my 10-22 at around 11-12mm, and the 580EX on auto & 14mm with the diffuser panel out, the results are usually pretty good. Esp. true when I need to shoot a huge house in under an hour, and give the client the pics that night.

[In2Photos]

thanks to both of you. I will try all of these methods out. I know it's not "cool," esp on this forum, but should I look past the fact that I can often get good, quick results shooting in P mode with flash on auto? With my 10-22 at around 11-12mm, and the 580EX on auto & 14mm with the diffuser panel out, the results are usually pretty good. Esp. true when I need to shoot a huge house in under an hour, and give the client the pics that night.
Who cares what is "cool", do what works. :) M mode just allows you to decide (except for flash amount in this case), whereas P mode, the camera makes all the decisions. I usually have good results with these settings which is why I recommended them. It doesn't mean they always work.;) But it is a good place to start.

[braduardo]

Unlike EVERYONE here, I would only use f3.5-5.6 or so. At 11mm, your DOF is going to be HUGE... Like from 3-50' or more. At short focal lengths, you get a good DOF regardless of your aperture. I'm at work, so I don't have the link to the DOF calculator handy, but see if you can find one.

If you were planning on enlarging your images, you might want to stop down a bit for sharpness (not to f11 or anything, more like f6.3) and stopping down might help a bit with the light from the windows blowing out, but other than that, stopping way down is just burning up the batteries in your flash faster.

[In2Photos]

Unlike EVERYONE here, I would only use f3.5-5.6 or so. At 11mm, your DOF is going to be HUGE... Like from 3-50' or more. At short focal lengths, you get a good DOF regardless of your aperture. I'm at work, so I don't have the link to the DOF calculator handy, but see if you can find one.

If you were planning on enlarging your images, you might want to stop down a bit for sharpness (not to f11 or anything, more like f6.3) and stopping down might help a bit with the light from the windows blowing out, but other than that, stopping way down is just burning up the batteries in your flash faster.
The reason to stop down was to keep the windows from blowing out and still be able to use flash, not DOF.

[braduardo]

Who cares what is "cool", do what works. :) M mode just allows you to decide (except for flash amount in this case), whereas P mode, the camera makes all the decisions. I usually have good results with these settings which is why I recommended them. It doesn't mean they always work.;) But it is a good place to start.


Actually, if you are just going to keep your meter at 0, or +/-1, manual won't really do anything for you. All P mode does is give you a shutter speed/aperture combination that will put your exposure to whereever your exposure compensation is set to. You turn the wheel, and adjust your or shutter speed to whatever you want, and it just keeps the exposure the same. It's basically like having Av and Tv mode in the same spot. You just choose with each shot.

Shooting Manual will help if you plan on actually watching the meter in your viewfinder.

[In2Photos]

Actually, if you are just going to keep your meter at 0, or +/-1, manual won't really do anything for you. All P mode does is give you a shutter speed/aperture combination that will put your exposure to whereever your exposure compensation is set to. You turn the wheel, and adjust your or shutter speed to whatever you want, and it just keeps the exposure the same. It's basically like having Av and Tv mode in the same spot. You just choose with each shot.

Shooting Manual will help if you plan on actually watching the meter in your viewfinder.
Wrong. When using flash indoors M mode allows you to decide which aperture you want (for DOF normally) and shutter speed (to freeze motion if needed) and allow the flash to provide all the light for your exposure. I never watch the meter when shooting with my flash indoors, unless I am pointed directly at a light source or I want some ambient light in the exposure.

[René Damkot]

A bit of both, actually ;)
I would use manual, meter the windows, and set them to just not blow out.
I would use at least f/8 to get everything within DoF (11mm lens, focus at 1.5 meter: DoF from approx 0.5 to 5.5 meters).
I'd probabely use a tripod to be able to compose more precise.
I'd either blend exposures, or bounce the flash, probabely behind me, or a bit to the side. Depending on situation, I'd use ETTL with EC or M on the flash.

[jcospolich]

more great info. I am shooting a townhouse tomorrow, and I will try it in both P modes and M. I will post a few examples that I can hopefully learn from again.

One more, different question. What is the relationship b/w my lens aperture range (3.5-5.6 for the 10-22mm)and the aperture that I would manually set with either Av or M modes?

[In2Photos]

more great info. I am shooting a townhouse tomorrow, and I will try it in both P modes and M. I will post a few examples that I can hopefully learn from again.

One more, different question. What is the relationship b/w my lens aperture range (3.5-5.6 for the 10-22mm)and the aperture that I would manually set with either Av or M modes?
The aperature range on the lens is the maximum aperture. So at 10mm the max aperture is f/3.5, at 22mm it is f/5.6. The minimum is most likely f/22. When you set the aperture in the camera and you press the shutter (or DOF preview button) the lens stops down to the aperture selected.

[jcospolich]

here are a couple below. I am trying to expose both the outside views and the interior properly.

Most are around f6.3, 1/125, FEC +2/3 on 580EX, shot at 11mm, Cloudy WB

http://www.gwlodging.com/intimages/PI113lvgrm.jpg

http://www.gwlodging.com/intimages/EL406lvgrm.jpg

[René Damkot]

Overflashed IMHO....

[PhotosGuy]

Available light only .. vs .. flash + available light
http://www.planetneil.com/faq/flash-techniques.html
...and a lot more: # dragging the shutter; # bouncing flash; # wireless TTL flash; # flash outdoors; # metering techniques; # flash brackets; # flash FAQ.

Neutral density gell which is also "indoor" color balanced
Lighting interiors of homes for shoots? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2389213)

[Roy Webber]

Set correct outside exposure in manaul (M) from an automatic reading.
Set ISO to 200 for extra flash power.
Bounce flash from the ceiling with + 1-3 exposure from the flashgun.

This will leave the windows correctly exposed and the flash will take care of the interior.