First newspaper publishing offer!

[jevidon]

I was just called by a photo editor at the Minneapolis Star Tribune out of the blue inquiring about an image he found on my site. I told him I would call him in the morning to give him a definite answer, but I'm pretty excited...I'm probably going to sell him the photo for $40...any input on that price (too much/too little) and is there anything else I should keep in mind during this process? I am hoping to deal with this in a very professional manner so as to leave that impression on him for down the road.....

[PhotosGuy]

One time editorial use? It will run how big? Did you ask what his budget is?

IndyJeff on NEWSPAPERS:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61210

Newspaper Sports Questions!
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=145984

Small Town Newspaper...
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=133274

[local] newspaper photographers (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3084081)

ASMP Pricing Strategies (American Society of Media Photographers)
http://www.asmp.org/commerce/digitalps_6.php

EP Editorial Estimator v1.10
http://www.editorialphoto.com/resources/estimator/

[jevidon]

it is a one time editorial use. not sure what the circulation numbers for the sunday trib are, but it's a pretty sizeable amount. However, the newspaper is making huge employee cuts so I know they won't be willing to shell out a lot of money for photos, and after looking around the forum a little more I think that my original quote will be just fine.

[Dorado]

$40?!?! Are you kidding me?

The MST has a circulation of 400,000 (from a quick google search), it's one of the largest papers in the upper mid-west. A 1/4 page image should go for $203-$406, median price of $271. 1/2 page ad median price of $339. For something smaller price accordingly.

[tcphoto1]

I agree with Dorado, but there are questions that need to be asked. What is the size the image will be used, what page will it be used? Try running the rate check on Getty or even Alamy to get an idea on pricing.

[PhotosGuy]

and after looking around the forum a little more I think that my original quote will be just fine. I'm sure that the editor will love it? ;)

[kona77]

I gave a picture of a fire to our local paper to introduce myself. I told him I wanted phot credit, and they did. It was the smallest font I have ever seen.
He then contacted me and wanted me to take an aerial photo of a major intersection under construction. I told him I needed to pay $150 to rent a place then there was my fee on top of that. He said he could afford $25. At this point my Coke came out of my nose and onto my cell phone.

Don't sell yourself short.

[jevidon]

Well where were all of you yesterday when I posed this question?!? But in the end, the photo is not going to be very large, and considering it is my first published photo I still feel that $40 is a justified amount. Considering this was not a commissioned photo (as in kona77's situation) I don't feel the need to charge an additional fee on top of the amount I am charging for the photo.

[tcphoto1]

Well where were all of you yesterday when I posed this question?!?

Busy shooting for a Client that was paying me a living wage.

[jevidon]

Busy shooting for a Client that was paying me a living wage.that comment was unecessary...

In case anyone was curious, the photo will be at most 3 columns wide on an inside page of the source section of the paper.

[NetDep]

jevidon - that is soooo cool!! Congrats on having one of your shots on the paper!!!

[Croasdail]

There are all kinds of photographers making a "living" wage all kinds of ways, for all kinds of wages. I've been paid $50 for a single print, and $10,000 for a weekend shoot. Not that I am a great photographer, I just know how to find opportunities. Most of the larger paying deals grew from me proving myself for a discounted wage/fee. For your first "freelance" image, I don't think you did bad at all. Again congrats on the image, let's hope this leads to other and more lucrative opportunities.

[jevidon]

jevidon - that is soooo cool!! Congrats on having one of your shots on the paper!!!
Thanks NetDep.

There are all kinds of photographers making a "living" wage all kinds of ways, for all kinds of wages. I've been paid $50 for a single print, and $10,000 for a weekend shoot. Not that I am a great photographer, I just know how to find opportunities. Most of the larger paying deals grew from me proving myself for a discounted wage/fee. For your first "freelance" image, I don't think you did bad at all. Again congrats on the image, let's hope this leads to other and more lucrative opportunities. Thanks for the input. I agree that it is important to first establish yourself at lower prices (but still not selling yourself short) which hopefully then leads to more lucrative opportunities.

[vwpilot]

... and considering it is my first published photo I still feel that $40 is a justified amount.

First or 1000th, it shouldnt matter on price. They came to you. They dont know its your first nor do they care.

I've said this before, people that think they should charge less for their first photo or first job are just plain WRONG. It simply doesnt matter if the client wants the photo or thinks you can do the job. IT DOESNT MATTER.

There is the normal going rate, which everyone should be charging, new or not, then there is the premiums paid for highly experienced or excellent photogs.

Just cause you havent done it before doesnt mean you should charge less. You should charge what everyone else does and there is NO REASON a client should EVER know its your first job. Just do the job and collect the check.

You did yourself a HUGE disservice by charging that little to a paper of that size. First off, you should have asked what their normal rate for such a usage is. Most papers and magazines already have a schedule for photos they pay on. If you didnt ask it might have been $125 without question. If they came in low, you start to negotiate.

Also, what was the photo of? Was it something that there should be a hundred photogs out there with a version of it or was it something special that only you had? There is a reason they came to you and not one of their staff or the AP or other wire service. You had something they wanted. You need to take that into account when selling images.

Did you consider any of that or just quote them $40 and have them accept.

Sorry we werent here sooner for you, but there is plenty on this subject out there on this site and others and its not hard to find.

I'm going to go on a rant here that is not solely directed at you, so please dont be offended.

People need to start doing some research on their own. There are a lot of sources out there and too often people come on these sites and want to be told what to charge without trying to find out on their own. Then when they are told what they should charge they argue half the time that they are "just beginning and need to get their name out there" so we are all full of crap for suggesting they charge what we do.

People either want to try to charge accordingly or they dont. If they arent going to do any research on their own and arent going to listen to what advice is given them, stop wasting all of our time and just go do what you are going to do.

If they actually want advice on what to charge, then search the forums, search the internet, show us you dont just want a free ride and not have to go through all the learning most of us did to get where we are, and certainly dont ignore us or tell us we are full of crap for suggesting the pricing we do.

C'mon people, either act like professionals, take advice like pros, and charge like pros, or just go off and do what you want and not waste all of our time.

End Rant.

Now that wasnt directed mainly at you, its just your example is here and now and I had to get it off my chest.

I'm glad you got asked and you should be thrilled that they came to you to begin with. You obviously had a photo that they liked and you should be proud of that. But take what was said into the future in case you are ever asked again. Selling photos has nothing to do with how many you have sold, there is a fair price and that is what should be charged...period. Learn from this and use it the next time you have an opportunity.

And to all, remember, that sometimes turning down a bad offer is a better business decision than just taking some little amount of money you are offered. They often use the phrase, "isnt a little bit of money better than no money at all." And while that might seem logical to some extent, its not always the truth and often its better to turn it down and wait for a better offer.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[kona77]

vwpilot,

Excellent points. I will read what you wrote many times in the future to remind myself that it's ok to charge for something I love doing.
Thanks for taking the time.

jevidon,

Congrats on your first publication. It has to start somewhere. There are very very good photographers on this forum. Not only are they good photographers but they are better businessmen and women. Their knowledge can make you money.
Good Luck

[jevidon]

First or 1000th, it shouldnt matter on price. They came to you. They dont know its your first nor do they care.

I've said this before, people that think they should charge less for their first photo or first job are just plain WRONG. It simply doesnt matter if the client wants the photo or thinks you can do the job. IT DOESNT MATTER.

There is the normal going rate, which everyone should be charging, new or not, then there is the premiums paid for highly experienced or excellent photogs.

Just cause you havent done it before doesnt mean you should charge less. You should charge what everyone else does and there is NO REASON a client should EVER know its your first job. Just do the job and collect the check.

You did yourself a HUGE disservice by charging that little to a paper of that size. First off, you should have asked what their normal rate for such a usage is. Most papers and magazines already have a schedule for photos they pay on. If you didnt ask it might have been $125 without question. If they came in low, you start to negotiate.

Also, what was the photo of? Was it something that there should be a hundred photogs out there with a version of it or was it something special that only you had? There is a reason they came to you and not one of their staff or the AP or other wire service. You had something they wanted. You need to take that into account when selling images.

Did you consider any of that or just quote them $40 and have them accept.

Sorry we werent here sooner for you, but there is plenty on this subject out there on this site and others and its not hard to find.

I'm going to go on a rant here that is not solely directed at you, so please dont be offended.

People need to start doing some research on their own. There are a lot of sources out there and too often people come on these sites and want to be told what to charge without trying to find out on their own. Then when they are told what they should charge they argue half the time that they are "just beginning and need to get their name out there" so we are all full of crap for suggesting they charge what we do.

People either want to try to charge accordingly or they dont. If they arent going to do any research on their own and arent going to listen to what advice is given them, stop wasting all of our time and just go do what you are going to do.

If they actually want advice on what to charge, then search the forums, search the internet, show us you dont just want a free ride and not have to go through all the learning most of us did to get where we are, and certainly dont ignore us or tell us we are full of crap for suggesting the pricing we do.

C'mon people, either act like professionals, take advice like pros, and charge like pros, or just go off and do what you want and not waste all of our time.

End Rant.

Now that wasnt directed mainly at you, its just your example is here and now and I had to get it off my chest.

I'm glad you got asked and you should be thrilled that they came to you to begin with. You obviously had a photo that they liked and you should be proud of that. But take what was said into the future in case you are ever asked again. Selling photos has nothing to do with how many you have sold, there is a fair price and that is what should be charged...period. Learn from this and use it the next time you have an opportunity.

And to all, remember, that sometimes turning down a bad offer is a better business decision than just taking some little amount of money you are offered. They often use the phrase, "isnt a little bit of money better than no money at all." And while that might seem logical to some extent, its not always the truth and often its better to turn it down and wait for a better offer.

Sorry if I offended anyone.No offense taken, Jim. I definitely understand your point and agree with you. After asking him how large the photo would be and what they normally paid for outsourced photos, and looking at some of the information on this forum (yes I did go around and do some research ;) ) I decided that somwhere in the range of $40-60 would be a fair price. I ended up charging $45 and while it's true that I could have probably haggled for more money, I also know that the Star Tribune is in a world of hurt right now because of mismanagement and I feel that this is my way of assisting in keeping our beloved paper around. Also I am hoping that in making the conversations and negotiations as painless as possible that the photo editor will keep me in mind when other things come up in the future. Maybe I am entirely off with this way of thinking, but I do feel that there is logic behind my madness...

[jevidon]

vwpilot,

Excellent points. I will read what you wrote many times in the future to remind myself that it's ok to charge for something I love doing.
Thanks for taking the time.

jevidon,

Congrats on your first publication. It has to start somewhere. There are very very good photographers on this forum. Not only are they good photographers but they are better businessmen and women. Their knowledge can make you money.
Good Luckthank you kona.

[Croasdail]

Do you guys realize how little newspaper photographers actually make? Average was just $27,500 with the low being $14.500 and the high being $56,000. And to that most papers have seen reductions in size from 20-40% over the last 6 years. File/wire/agency images are supplying more and more of the images and stories.

So like Jim says, know what your market. Some of the quotes for image prices listed in these page are just .... well... odd. Don't give your stuff away, but also be realistic that 99.9999 percent of the stuff produced isn't pulitzer stuff, and can be had just about anywhere by any number of photographers. If you have something really special, price it that way or get a agent to place it. But trust me, most images don't reach that bar.

[jevidon]

Do you guys realize how little newspaper photographers actually make? Average was just $27,500 with the low being $14.500 and the high being $56,000. And to that most papers have seen reductions in size from 20-40% over the last 6 years. File/wire/agency images are supplying more and more of the images and stories.

So like Jim says, know what your market. Some of the quotes for image prices listed in these page are just .... well... odd. Don't give your stuff away, but also be realistic that 99.9999 percent of the stuff produced isn't pulitzer stuff, and can be had just about anywhere by any number of photographers. If you have something really special, price it that way or get a agent to place it. But trust me, most images don't reach that bar.thanks for those numbers croasdail. very informative.

[Dorado]

Some of the quotes for image prices listed in these page are just .... well... odd.

Not sure about the other quotes, but mine came from industry standard quote estimators. The EP link above is a good one also...


jevidon:

You risk establishing yourself as the "guy who will sell me an image dirt cheap" guy with that newspaper.

[LBaldwin]

All of you have vaild points , and it would seem on the surface that 40 is way too low. Well unfortuantly for newspapers it is often a lot lower. I have been published in both the Santa Cruz sentinal and the the San Jose mercury News. They both pay 25 for most images. Unless you have first shots and or only shots of a international incident you will be hard pressed to get more than that. Newspapers work with a very thin margins and TV and the web are direct comp for new news images.

If the OP's image is editorial usage but non-news and not time sensitive, then he may be able to get more, but good luck.

Newspapers do not pay large amounts for images. They can't compete with TV, can't change or update content during an incident and the market reflects that. The employees are often at near MW rates and little or no benefits. Large markets are the same as small markets. Newspapers are the dinosaurs of our time. Color inserts, advertising, will pay better as well as color feature stories. It does not pay very well to be a freelance news photog any longer.

Dorado , in most markets I would agree with your assesment. But newspapers are thin and getting thinner.

Les

[Croasdail]

Not sure about the other quotes, but mine came from industry standard quote estimators. The EP link above is a good one also...


jevidon:

You risk establishing yourself as the "guy who will sell me an image dirt cheap" guy with that newspaper.

Local newspapers are not magazines. The quality and value of prints in magazines is far different then a newspaper. The value a magazines place on images, and the impact they make to their stories are not the same as that to a newspaper.

My comments come from working as a freelancer and staffer off and on for 25 years.

[PhotosGuy]

And to all, remember, that sometimes turning down a bad offer is a better business decision than just taking some little amount of money you are offered. Good post, Jim!

10 Good Reasons to Turn Down a Project (http://www.artofselfpromotion.com/articles/turn_down.html)

[Croasdail]

Good links PhotosGuy....

Hey, could you and JIm can you share what the prevailing contract rate is for the papers you all submit to. You don't have to quote your all specifics, but generalites. I am sure there is some regional differences and all, but it would be interesting to see how local markets differ. I'll start first so I am not asking you for something I haven't provided, localy the range is 35-50 for the random image, and up to 250 for requested coverage of an event... depending on the news worthiness. Normally the 250's don't come around much as they will have their staffers work the critical events that need coverage. I make very little off newspapers - do I more wire stuff now and contract work for colleges. What's it like in your neighborhood.

[PhotosGuy]

...could you and JIm can you share what the prevailing contract rate is for the papers you all submit to. I'd be happy to, but my editorial work was all for magazines. This has a short list of newspapers, but covers 1,600 outlets & is a pretty good reference. It's even in my city library!:
2006 Photographers Market (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1582973954?v=glance)

For instance, the New York Times pays $1-150 per shot for one-time rights.

[Croasdail]

That pretty much matches up with my experiences. I have now seen the idea floated around here more then once that you can charge what the paper gets for a like sized ad. Number one, good luck trying to figure out their rate sheets, there are so many variables. I just hate to see people get beat up for charging less then what some view here as a reasonable rate. I am sure the comments are well intentioned. A papers ad rate is not a reliable reference. In my area, a 1/4 page add would be significanly more then $300. Significantly.

[breal101]

That pretty much matches up with my experiences. I have now seen the idea floated around here more then once that you can charge what the paper gets for a like sized ad. Number one, good luck trying to figure out their rate sheets, there are so many variables. I just hate to see people get beat up for charging less then what some view here as a reasonable rate. I am sure the comments are well intentioned. A papers ad rate is not a reliable reference. In my area, a 1/4 page add would be significanly more then $300. Significantly.

Very true, newspaper rates have always been small. If the OP is happy that is all that counts. He got more than my local paper pays.

[vwpilot]

Hey, could you and JIm can you share what the prevailing contract rate is for the papers you all submit to. You don't have to quote your all specifics, but generalites.

Well, I'll admit that I do next to zero newspaper work, however, even with limited experience I can say that my very local, as in my small regional town newspaper that is a bi-weekly, will pay $35 for a inside 1/4 page or smaller photo.

So with that, there is no way in hell I would ever sell a photo to a paper the size described here for $40. Over $100, we start to get into the area that I would figure larger papers would start to pay.

I know that newspapers do not pay huge. But in the case such as this we had a sizable paper coming to the photographer for a specific photo, that obviously meant something to them and their staffers didnt have. That makes it a more valuable photo than $40-$50 imo.

Using something like FotoQuote, which is NOT speculation, but assembled using going rates of what photographers have been getting for similar sales, over $200 would not have been out of the question.

So, while I dont do it often, I do know, from a business perspective where I would have wanted to be to be considered a fair price. If the paper could not meet that, fine, I'd walk away.

Making $40 or $140 is not going to make or break my business. Its not about getting the extra $100 from a monetary standpoint. Its about getting that extra $100 because that is what I SHOULD be getting. Its about making a stand and showing them that there is a fair price for the work I'm doing and I'm not going to lay down and be used. They make three times that on one advertisment buried deep in the paper. They can pay me what is fair.

And if they dont, its a better business decision to walk away and not set a precedent as the guy that they can go to for cheap photos. One photo credit in a newspaper is going to do nothing from a business standpoint. No one is going to see your name and track you down to get you to do more work for them.

But the papers have gotten cheap and there are a lot of amateurs out there submitting photos for the byline, and I cant really blame either party for that as everyone is now a photographer in the digital age. Someone that doesnt do this for a living is thrilled with their name in lights for a bit and thats fine. But when it comes to buying from established photographers, we need to make sure they know that we still need to make a living and that means being treated and paid fairly. And if they dont, soon enough all they will have as sources are the joe schmo on the street with his P&S.

And I'll be clear, I was not mad at the OP for what he did, nor was I scolding him. I was simply stating that I think he did a disservice to himself and that was unfortunate. My other rant is toward a much broader audience that I think we have all seen when we get pricing questions from folks that have not done any research, then when we tell them they should charge $xx.xx, they come back and say thats too much, they are just going to charge $x.xx. Why bother if that is what you are going to do.

Hopefully everyone can take something away from this for next time and we can all make a living doing what we love.

[Croasdail]

Well, I'll admit that I do next to zero newspaper work, however, even with limited experience I can say that my very local, as in my small regional town newspaper that is a bi-weekly, will pay $35 for a inside 1/4 page or smaller photo.

That is why most have to have a 2nd and 3rd place to shop the images with sports. Locals get them, then the wire services, then the annuals and like. Way too much work for too little money. The days of full time freelancers is coming to a close because there is way too much supply. Cheers all.

[jevidon]

I do realize that I may have done myself a great disservice for charging less than the going rate in this situation, but the transaction has already been completed so in regards to this instance it's water over the dam. However, I will be keeping this information in mind when an opportunity like this arises again (although apparently my actions have made it less likely that that will occur).

[MJPhotos24]

Well, I shoot for a bunch of companies and magazines - and all have there own going rates, they ask new photogs for there rates first to see if they can get it cheaper than there usual rates (i.e., they hope the photographer doesn't know what to charge). I always ask a new company there usual pricing, and try not to hint at what others pay me until they ask, and then I quote the medium-higher rates. I had one company play cat and mouse with me for about a week not telling me there going rate (for trading cards), finally I told them I get $70 from one company, $75 from another, $100-125 from another and you'd think I kicked his puppy, he got mad and told me there going rate was $40. They have there rates, so next time just ask - or if you get a chance to ask one of there photogs if he/she knows do that, every newspaper photog I run into I try to dig for that info to get going rates of diff. sized ones --- just in case.

Just for comparison of "low" prices, I shoot for one national magazine that is bi-weekly and the rate is $20 for an image that is one column or less, $40 for anything else - so a half page photo is $40. Fair? not exactly (it used to go by columns in 20 - so one column $20, two columns $40, three columns $60, four columns $80, but they discontinued that...the cover is a lot more of course). Anyways, another weekly national magazine the going rate is $70 for about 1/4 a page or smaller - maybe more for bigger but for stock photos thats all they do usually at most is 1/4. So...that's two big time national magazines for comparison...I think our local paper would give me a stick of gum and a smile, if that.