"But you took loads more! Where are they?"

[Jay McLaughlin]

I recently did a photoshoot for a family with their baby. From that shoot I've selected the best shots and put them in a gallery for them.

I'm now getting asked where the rest of them are because I took "loads more than that". I've tried to explain that I've selected the best shots etc, and that some looked uncomfortable or had people looking the wrong way etc etc, but they don't seem to get it.

They've got 33 good shots to choose from covering a wide range of setups and poses, but they won't stop going on about the "other photos" as if they're somehow magical and I'm holding them back.

How can I get them to forget about them and concentrate on the good shots?

[sando]

Erm... why not just show them a selection of the rejects so they can see why they're rejected?

[Jay McLaughlin]

That's what I'm going to do. I never normally have this problem. It's only because this was for a friend!

[Rubi Jane]

Same thing happened to me. A client was surprised to see "only" 40+ images I loaded into their gallery although I had previously explained she'd get 30-40 images to view from the shoot. I simply posted all the remaining images unedited just resized. She quickly saw that when you're shooting 3 very busy, somewhat uncooperative siblings the success rate isn't close to 100% ;)

[cdifoto]

they won't stop going on about the "other photos" as if they're somehow magical and I'm holding them back.

How can I get them to forget about them and concentrate on the good shots?

It's only because this was for a friend!

You've got dense friends! :rolleyes: :)

As others said, prove it to them. Show them the baddies so they can see why they're baddies.

[Grace]

this drives me CRAZY ! I actually get it a lot....arghh...even though I tell them how many images they will get to proof, they always want more...

[Jay McLaughlin]

And then when they want prints they say they can't decide which ones because there's too many to choose from!!!

[cdifoto]

It's beautiful ain't it? ;) :)

[PhotosGuy]

And then when they want prints they say they can't decide which ones because there's too many to choose from!!!. http://www.chatitaliachat.it/serpe/nuevas/116.gif

[MrWills]

Just show them, I have the same thing some times and just show them all of them. Then on the other hand I hate doing pictures for friends since stuff like this comes up.

[cosworth]

First, get the keeper ratio up. Determine why you had a lot of dumpers.

I find it's the opposite. I get home and upload thinking maybe 100 shots. 160 shots later... The customer usually never asks. I'm sure it comes down to me spekaing with the customer as we go along in the shoot. They gets loose and sort of lose track of the image count.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Normally my keeper ratio is much higher, but when shooting a fidgety baby and family there's not a lot of control over the subject.

[Jon, The Elder]

Jay...I understand your problem. When I shoot a horse and rider, that means that 4 eyes, 6 legs, 2 heads, etc. have to be in perfect poses. All it takes is one blink or the horse lays back their ears, and you start all over. Two or Three bursts just to get one keeper.

I tell them to ignore the shutter sound, that it is just a safety device.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That's what I told them at the time. It's only my friend being annoying!

[René Damkot]

As long as the selection you made is good, what do they have to complain about?

[ChatKat]

I tell them because it is my artistic vision, I only show my best work. If I showed the others to you, it would change your perception and your perspective. I don't keep less than perfect shots. (actually, I do keep them all, but it is more work to process them and cull them and why should I do that if it isn't required - time is money?

[tim]

Post them all - blinkers, poorly exposed, and just plain boring photos that we all take at portrait sessions - that'll teach them.

[liza]

Photoshop all the rejects with the gaussian blur plug in so that no detail can be made out. That should shut them up. :)

[rabidcow]

I talk to customers as I shoot and I make sure to tell them when I think that a shot looks bad. Saying something like "you blinked in that one", "the expression wasn't quite there", or "oops, I screwed that one up" (bad crop, light misfire, etc). This tells them right away that there are some non-keepers.

I do agree with cosworth though, you really do need to drive up the keeper rate. But the only way to do that is to practice :) I have finally reached a point where 40 shots or so will yield 36 or so keepers (in studio, candids photography is another story...)

This does two things for me, one it helps keep my schedule flowing, and two, it is far more impressive to the client. I once had a mom tell me that she was thrilled with the senior portrait experience at my studio simply because I took 12 images of her daughter, and she loved all 12. She told me that she went to another photog first in order to save money and he literally took over 400 images. She was overwhelmed with a butt load of repeats and poor portraits. (the guy would machine gun environmentals.)

So...all said, practice to lower your toss rate, talk to the client so they know that you are tossing some, and most importantly remember that the customer always needs to feel like they are in control.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I talk to customers as I shoot and I make sure to tell them when I think that a shot looks bad. Saying something like "you blinked in that one", "the expression wasn't quite there", or "oops, I screwed that one up" (bad crop, light misfire, etc). This tells them right away that there are some non-keepers.

I do agree with cosworth though, you really do need to drive up the keeper rate. But the only way to do that is to practice :) I have finally reached a point where 40 shots or so will yield 36 or so keepers (in studio, candids photography is another story...)

This does two things for me, one it helps keep my schedule flowing, and two, it is far more impressive to the client. I once had a mom tell me that she was thrilled with the senior portrait experience at my studio simply because I took 12 images of her daughter, and she loved all 12. She told me that she went to another photog first in order to save money and he literally took over 400 images. She was overwhelmed with a butt load of repeats and poor portraits. (the guy would machine gun environmentals.)

So...all said, practice to lower your toss rate, talk to the client so they know that you are tossing some, and most importantly remember that the customer always needs to feel like they are in control.

Like I said before. Normally my keeper ratio is much higher - especially when shooting in a studio with adults. But this was a shoot in someone's home with a 7 month old baby, the mum and dad, and 2 adult sisters - that's a lot of potential for shots to get binned because of blinking alone!

[rabidcow]

tell me about it :) kids and pets really make it difficult to shoot, and that should also be relayed to the family before and after the shoot. Family photography is far more challenging than most other aspects of this profession just because of kids and pets, in studio or on location.

[Jay McLaughlin]

It was relayed at the time. I told them they'd get around 30 shots to choose from - which they've got. It's just my friend is being annoying.

[crash331]

Why do you guys keep berating him about the keeper ratio? You try to do a shoot with small kids. Tone the egos down.

[René Damkot]

Agree. Another possibility is that the OP sets a higher standard then those complaining about his keeper rate ;)

[tim]

Shooting kids i'd be happy with 20% keepers, but I deliberately overshoot. That's not the issue here, I suggest dropping it.

[rabidcow]

You try to do a shoot with small kids. Tone the egos down.

I do family shoots about 3-4 times a week in studio, and I know exactly how it is with small kids. It takes practice and loads of patience. Pushing for a high keeper rate means that those impatient children get out of the studio sooner, they will only sit still for so long, and the longer a session runs the less likely you are to get worthwhile shots. (feather dusters are a great way to get young kids to smile BTW) :)

Why do you guys keep berating him about the keeper ratio?

No berating (a severe rebuke) here. Just advice. I have no intention of putting Jay McLaughlin down, I have seen his work, very impressive. I just offered my experience as advice. I am not a hobbiest photog, I make a living with it. I see every opportunity to help as a good one, I want advice from others myself, this is how I become better.

Take it however you want, I come across as harsh, but I only want to help when possible. Certainly better than telling the OP to screw up the bad shots more and shove them in the face of the client. :rolleyes:

[*Mike*]

Agree. Another possibility is that the OP sets a higher standard then those complaining about his keeper rate ;)

Ding, Ding, Ding! I think you may have nailed this one...

[deadpass]

Honestly, don't do work for friends. When I work with people I don't know it's always great, when it's for friends it's a PITA. however since this has already happened then either put up the non perfect pictures (which i wouldnt' do) or tell them that you take many of the same shot because of blinking, moving, bad look (aka the truth) and then move on.

[pos]

Tell him your dog ate the rest. pos

[Blue Deuce]

I never normally have this problem. It's only because this was for a friend!

I have built a successful landscape contracting business always keeping this mantra in mind.

I don't work for friends, neighbors or family. It just never works out.

[tim]

I have built a successful landscape contracting business always keeping this mantra in mind.

I don't work for friends, neighbors or family. It just never works out.

I would agree with this for sure. Do it for free, only if it's something that's not critical, but friends/family and money don't mix at all.

[tony fanning]

this drives me CRAZY ! I actually get it a lot....arghh...even though I tell them how many images they will get to proof, they always want more...

Aint that the truth. I took over 120 of a family the other week, they had 80 to choose from- they had me going back and forth on my laptop between shots for 4 bloody hours. Then they asked where the rest were!:rolleyes:

[Monito]

Who cares one whit about the "keeper rate"? It is the finished product that counts. However, machine gunning is just plain inefficient for the photographer who has to sort through them at the end. It is a bad business for a photographer to dump a truckload of takes onto the customer. They are bound to select an image that doesn't make the photographer's work look good. As the portraitist, it is up to you to know how to light them and pose them and coax the best expression out of them that suits their face, hairstyle, body fat, skin color, skin texture and (most importantly) meets the previously agreed upon goals the portrait session is meant to produce.

When Arnold Newman or Yousuf Karsh or Phillipe Halsman made a portrait, they made "a" portrait, not a flip book. Presenting 40 photographs to a customer, whether the shoot had 41 shots or 417 shots, is not really the best idea. It makes the photographer look like they are just taking photographs, rather than making photographs. This is not a magazine shoot and the client is not a skilled magazine photo editor. Just because technology makes it easy to shoot hundreds of shots or show dozens of takes, doesn't make it wise to do so.

As to who is in control of a photo session, either the photographer is in control making a photograph or the photographer is out of control just taking snaps. This applies even to babies or pets where obviously the "keeper" rate will be lower than with more cooperative subjects. However, in deference to rabidcow who posted earlier, the customer needs to feel like they are a partner with some control, even if that is mostly an illusion.

Make the deal with the customer up front that you are making one portrait and you will show them one, two or at most three pictures. If they want to have a flip book of animated photos, that is a different kind of deal and maybe they should go to a videographer.