Please Help: Trying to sell image...what price/rights do I do??

[Khristian Snyder]

Sorry I know this must be asked a lot....

Im 16 and this would pretty much be my first time selling a picture. I got an e-mail of a local store owner who wants to buy a picture and make it into some sort of custom wooden sign for her shop...I presume to sell back to others during the summer tourist season.

Here are some things she said:


> I am sure that you might find this a bit strange... I own a store in San Clemente, called Villa Cucina, and I carry custom signs. I have been working to create a few of my own through my vendor, and I want to do one that has the Pier as the background. As such, I have been searching for the perfect image, and when I came across one that I believe you took, I have to say I was absolutely amazed. My husband and I are both born and raised here- in fact both our families go back a long way locally, and we have never seen such a beautiful shot!!!
> Anyway, I am writing to see if you would be at all willing to sell me this image to be adapted into a custom wooden sign. The representation would be altered a bit, and a caption would be added a well. And, of course, I would send you a sign as well.
> On the other hand, I would also be interested in selling this image framed as well. Please let me know if there is any way that we can work together on this. With summer coming, I would love to offer this to my clients.


The second email:
I am interested in a shot I found while googling San Clemente pier... It's a picture of the pier at sunset, taken from the South side-. I would really like to buy the rights from you if possible! The couple that does my signs can only accept it that way. Would you be interested? And how much would you sell it for? The colors would make it ideal for my application, and it would be altered some to appear old. They are really cool when done!
You can call me anytime on my business line- ***-***-****. Please let me know soon!



My question:
First off...should I sell the rights of this particular picture...if I did...am I allowed to sell that picture again?
If thats not a good idea...what other possible ways are there to give some rights to the client. I have heard of one-time use rights...is that a good idea in this sort of situation?

Lastly...
What price should I sell her the file for, based on what rights im giving her?

Thank you for your help and time!!

[MJPhotos24]

You can sell the exclusive rights, but you better charge accordingly (a lot) and then if you did that you cannot sell the pic to anyone. If you do non-exclusive rights then you could sell the pic to others, anyone you wanted really. Now the store is going to want exclusive to make sure you don't sell it to similar stores that will make similar products. However, I would say do it non-exclusive unless they offer an insane amount of money for exclussive, one time is the best so that you get paid for A) the signs B) the framed pictures C) any other product they make with it - so in other words everything they make using the photo you get paid for.

Not sure price wise, exclussive rights sold = a lot more than non-exclusive.

[Khristian Snyder]

Thank you so much for that information!

Does anyone know what a reasonable price would be for this sort of situation with a small store. Also, how should I write up a contract. Can I just write something simple or does it have to be elaborate?

Thanks again!

[Dorado]

I would sell non-exclusive rights to reproduce it as a sign. If she wants exclusive rights, maybe counter with non competing clause. Meaning it will be non-exclusive, but you cant sell it to a sign making business for 1 year or something. If they must have exclusive rights, then you must decide what price justifies this, and if it is even worth it. How much money could that image make of the course of its lifetime, that it will now not make? I cant tell you what that number is, but for me it would be enough for a new boat :)

As for the prints, come up with a pricng structure for the common sizes. Calculate how much it costs you to produce a print, add on profit, and sell the print to her. She can then mark it up and sell it in her store. Example: $25 8x10, $20 for 5x7 etc... She can then just order more prints from you as she sells out of them. Your contract must state she cannot reproduce that image in any way, only sell the prints. Dont give her the negative/slide/digital file, to easy for her to reproduce it without you knowing.

There is a lot of info on pricing images out there, do your homework. Dont under sell yourself because this is your first image sale!

http://www.editorialphoto.com/resources/estimator/

http://www.asmp.org/commerce/digitalps_6.php

There is software out there that can help you with the rights/contract part of it:

http://www.zimberoff.com/photobyte.htm

http://www.fotoquote.com/

T&C's:
http://www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/terms_conditions/back.php

[Croasdail]

I would also look at some of the stock web sites and use them as a guide to what this person would be paying for an image if they bought it via those channels. You will find the range to be huge though. Find a number you both feel comfortable with. And if you don't want to totally loose control of the image, you can put geographic or time limits on the license. I and you should understand she/he/they don't want to see the image show up at their competitors place too.... seems reasonable.

That's pretty cool at 16 your getting this kind of recognition. Congrats on it. I think there should be some way the two of you can find a place you both feel you are getting value from the deal.

[joegolf68]

As usual with these kinds of questions, the kid wanted a price, a number, and got lots of info but no number, or even a range of prices he should consider. I am not in the business, so I can't make a reasonable guess, but for the pros out there, I'd think you'd give the kid a number to consider! Seems every time I see a thread someone starts like this, they never get a real answer for some reason.

Hey, I'd think if you got $200 plus a sign (or see what else they make) of your liking you could lease the image to them for two years non-exclusive with the wording that you won't sell to anyone in the sign business or anyone doing business within five miles of this shop.

Ok, totally clueless I am, but I gave him a number, intentionally, so the pros could say something in response to shoot me down, forcing them to give the kid a better number.

Good luck and congrats.

[Croasdail]

As usual with these kinds of questions, the kid wanted a price, a number, and got lots of info but no number, or even a range of prices he should consider. I am not in the business, so I can't make a reasonable guess, but for the pros out there, I'd think you'd give the kid a number to consider! Seems every time I see a thread someone starts like this, they never get a real answer for some reason.

Hey, I'd think if you got $200 plus a sign (or see what else they make) of your liking you could lease the image to them for two years non-exclusive with the wording that you won't sell to anyone in the sign business or anyone doing business within five miles of this shop.

Ok, totally clueless I am, but I gave him a number, intentionally, so the pros could say something in response to shoot me down, forcing them to give the kid a better number.

Good luck and congrats.

Ok... I'll bite. I want to buy a car with 4 doors and tires - how much should I pay?

Problem is there are plenty of non-pro's, or pro's who don't do this kind of work giving answers they 1) don't have the experience to be responding to - hence a lot of the vague answers, and/or 2) don't have enough detail. No one, at all, who is a professional is going to or should tell someone over the web that they don't know what to charge for their business. It is as stupid as giving legal advice out over the web - and if you do it often enough - your likely to need some legal advice yourself. Someone will be unhappy because they lost the deal of a life time because someone here quoted them numbers they got off a site that prices images for magazine editorial use rather then stock art prices. It's just not smart. You provide the person with the resources to get the answer themselves, and let them do their due diligence.

Come on... please do your homework. I have no problem with this 16 year old asking for help. That is what a 16 year old should do. But the rest of you all that want people over the web to tell you how much you should get paid, don't expect anything more general help finding the right answers. If someone responds directly, they likely don't know enough to be responding otherwise they would know better then to respond directly.

[Dorado]

...I am not in the business, so I can't make a reasonable guess...

Sums it up

[joegolf68]

Quick wits. I guess the OP was asking such a complex question that even the pros here are unable to give him a range of prices as suggestions. So OP, you have now found yourself in one of the most unique situations in photography history. Good luck, you might need to hire a group of consultants to look at the issue and write a couple of of white papers on the subject. One you read the white papers, take a couple of polls, go back for more research, and then flip a coin, as even that group of experts might not have the wherewithal to nail down a dollar price for you.

Geez.

[Master Mason]

Here is a simple technique, ask the buyer what they are willing to pay.

a few things will happen with this approach, you will get an idea of what it is worth to them, obviously they will give you their low number, but it gives you a ball park.

Then from that you'll either think they are crazy because you think it is worth way more than that, their offer will seem reasonable, or you might even be surprised they offered you so much. But until you ask you don't know what they are willing to pay in the first place.

Also, you might concider making sure they give you credit for the photo, this could be invaluable for advertising purposes, and just might lead you to more sales, so that is something to concider as well.

[Croasdail]

It's not complex... Do you discuss and give salary/income advice out over the web? If you do, you shouldn't. I am at a loss of just how silly your response is. It takes 5 minutes to find out over the web what the agencies are charging... no white papers, no consultants, no coin flipping. I just priced an image on Acclaim and it took 3 minutes... It walks you right through the pricing process. So not very much work their Joe...

try this one... just click "price this image"

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0106-0701-1519-0041.html

Here are some stock photo sites.... and this is what your are competing with..

http://www.acclaimimages.com/

http://www.istockphoto.com/index.php

http://www.stockphoto.com/

http://www.bigstockphoto.com/

http://pro.corbis.com/

http://www.fotosearch.com/

The list goes on forever.

a summary of many of them

http://www.stock-photo-review.com/Default.aspx

[vwpilot]

As usual with these kinds of questions, the kid wanted a price, a number, and got lots of info but no number, or even a range of prices he should consider. I am not in the business, so I can't make a reasonable guess, but for the pros out there, I'd think you'd give the kid a number to consider! Seems every time I see a thread someone starts like this, they never get a real answer for some reason.

Hey, I'd think if you got $200 plus a sign (or see what else they make) of your liking you could lease the image to them for two years non-exclusive with the wording that you won't sell to anyone in the sign business or anyone doing business within five miles of this shop.

Ok, totally clueless I am, but I gave him a number, intentionally, so the pros could say something in response to shoot me down, forcing them to give the kid a better number.

Good luck and congrats.

You know, I'm going to call up the first engineer I can find and ask him how much I should charge to design someone a building. Yeah, he should be more than willing to just give me a number without knowing the size, where it is, or any other really important info.

On top of that, I'm sure he just loves to share pricing with just anyone that asks.

Joe, no offense, but your being a little idiotic here. For a couple of reasons.

One, NONE of us are in his specific shoes and therefore we cant tell him what to charge for it. Also, his request is actually a very strange one. There isnt a pricing guide on the planet I have found yet that gives pricing for a wooden sign that is to be sold for profit.

This isnt a sign for advertising, its a sign they are going to sell for profit. That is totally different and very out of the norm. If the kid said he had a photo that someone wanted to buy the rights to print on a postcard that will be printed in the US with 1 million copies printed out, there is some specific and established pricing out there that could be given, this is not one of those cases.

Secondly, and I think more importantly from my point of view, why the hell should we do his work for him? Everyone wants a free ride these days. They want to be a "pro" and sell their images, but dont want to do any work to do it.

They come on this site and others like it and ask the pros to tell them what they should charge. They ask the pros to tell them what equipment they need. They ask the pros to tell them how they should handle a specific shoot they have been hired for and never done before.

Its lazy and its insulting to those of us that have cut our teeth trying to earn a living and have done all the research and legwork and made mistakes and learned from them and actually TRIED to learn how to run our businesses.

I have paid for software and bought books to help me learn to price things. I have asked general questions to those that came before me. I have researched and put more bandwidth through Google than you could imagine trying to figure out ON MY OWN, how to price my jobs.

Why should I expect anyone else to do anything less? Why should I be there to simply tell someone what to charge so they dont learn a damn thing and have to come here and ask me again the next job they get? Why should any of us do your work for you?

Ever heard the expression, give the man a fish and feed him for a day. TEACH him to fish and feed him for a lifetime?

That is what people try to do here. There is nothing rude or wrong about giving someone or pointing them toward the TOOLS to answer their own questions. When they can take those and figure something out on their own, then they will have actually learned something here and actually be able to do it again the next time they have a different job.

If we simply tell him to charge $XXX.00 for this sale, whats going to happen when they decide they want to buy another photo, but this time its going to be used for banners to advertise with?

He will come back here again and ask us a second time, how much should he charge.

However, if we show him resources to make the decision on his own, then he will actually learn how to do it and be able to figure it out again the next time.

Does that mean we should never help out with specific pricing? No way. If someone comes on here and says,

"I've had a strange request. Someone wants to buy a photo to make wood carvings out of for sale to the public and I have searched through FotoQuote, I've searched through Getty and Corbis online and I cant find anything like that usage, can someone help me out with some pricing?"

Then I have NO problem helping them out. Maybe a couple of us together could find something in FQ that might be similar, or someone would come on and say, "I sold a photo awhile ago that was used for a sculpture. Thats a similar thing and I charged about $XXX.00" That becomes reasonable.

But to just hand out pricing to anyone that wants to hear it anytime, its just not smart at all and it will never teach anyone to learn something.

Tell you what, you want to hear what I would charge them with the info I have. How about $20,000 because that is what its worth to me to sell an image with full exclusive rights like they seem to be asking for.

I bet if I quoted that, both you and he would think I was totally full of **** and would say "thanks for the help" and move on charging them $50 because, hey, after all, its better to have $50 in your pocket than nothing, right?

But if he gets pointed in directions to see that full exclusive buyouts like that can cost in that area and more, he can actually believe in the value and learn something about it and how to negotiate different terms.

The point is, there is not enough info here, its a strange request with no firm answer and he simply needs to figure it out on his own from the help we can give him.

He knows his client, he knows what they are asking for, only he can talk to them and negotiate terms, and he is the one that needs to take the info and learn how to price it for whats best for him. None of us can do that. Its in his court.

[Croasdail]

Dang Jim, took ya long enough to get here. And finally one where I think were totally on the same side of the fence.

Khristian, don't let any of this side conversation keep ya from asking questions. It's just that sometime the best answer is to show ya how to get the answer yourself. That way you will not need others if more opportunities come your way.

[Rubi Jane]

I can offer you one of my examples. I had an image of a Jeep churning through mud, pretty intense shot. I sold the rights to use the image on a mousepad to a 4-wheel drive shop. They can make as many mousepads as they wish and they can use the image to promote the mousepad sales (ie. on the web or instore flyer) but they can't use the image for any other project. They paid $300 Canadian for non-exclusive rights.

You can consider selling rights for producing the signs a number of ways. I'd ask the potential client what rights they are looking, what's important and if necessary what's a deal breaker. They may not even be thinking exclusive rights in which case I wouldn't bring it up. If they want exclusive try for non-competing as someone suggested or exclusive for 1 year then open the rights up. I'm not sure they are seeking exclusive rights, you might just be interpreting it that way from what they wrote. Their vendor may only make them signs if they have secured rights to use, in other words the vendor doesn't want to get caught in a copyright battle. I wouldn't immediately assume they want to buy the rights outright or evn exclusive rights.

You're pretty much in the driving seat and have to decide what deal you can live with. If this couple have lived there all their lives and haven't seen such a beautiful shot then you might be sitting on something very marketable in your area. I think how I would approach it is to have a personal coversation with the store owner, either in person or on the phone and just discuss their needs and the options then offer to get back to them with a written quote via email. Email is great for a quick back & forth but I find it a disrespectful way to negotiate.

[vwpilot]

Well, as it so happens, being a user of FotoBiz and FotoQuote, I get updates and tips from those that build the software from time to time. One came today regarding negotiating pricing and has tips and pointers about how to work with a client to figure out a price.

While it hits on many of the things we talked about here, one of the things that stands out is just what Rubi touched on and also points out to Joe why its not a simple answer such as he was asking.

The same photo in stock photography can bring anything from a minor payment to thousands of dollars if your image is going to be the key that brings in large amounts of money to your client. This is something you have to negotiate; you can't just say a photograph on a brochure cover is worth $800. It might be worth $600 to your local baker and it might be worth $7,000 to Ralph Lauren. I'll say it again; it all depends on the value your image is bringing to the company.

This is but one paragraph of the tip that came today that had a lot of other great info in it. BTW, Joe, this is the kinds of things us pros do to actually learn how to run our business. We invest in things such as software that brings us the knowledge we need, it doesnt come out of thin air and its why some of us can get touchy when others want it all handed to them on a silver platter.

Back OT, lets look at that one paragraph.

The same photo in stock photography can bring anything from a minor payment to thousands of dollars if your image is going to be the key that brings in large amounts of money to your client.

There is NOT one price that can be put on a photo when being used for stock, such as the request in this thread (as opposed to an assignment). It can vary greatly and is DIRECTLY related to the amount of money it can bring in to the potential client.

This is something you have to negotiate; you can't just say a photograph on a brochure cover is worth $800. It might be worth $600 to your local baker and it might be worth $7,000 to Ralph Lauren.

Again, you cant just put a price on a photo for such a usage. If a company like Ralph Lauren or Exxon or Microsoft is using a photo and going to put it on something that the world will see and will potentially bring the in millions of dollars in revenue, then its only right that you charge more money for it than if the local guy down the street is using it for his homepage for a product he makes in his spare time for the local community.

This is very important information that needs to be used to come up with a price. In this case we do not have this kind of information and therefore cannot put a price on the image.

I'll say it again; it all depends on the value your image is bringing to the company.

See, there again, even he repeats it twice. YOU have value in your image and the pricing is directly related in the value YOUR image brings to THEIR company.

The email I got goes on with lots of questions to ask, how to get the info you need and how to negotiate the sale based on that information and its more than I'm going to go into here. But you need to know what value your photo has and you need to get as much information about its usage and what the client expects out of it as you can.

ONLY then can you make an educated decision on pricing and the true value it has to the client.

And in this case you do have value in your photo. Just as Rubi points out, they came to you and they want your photo. That means it has value to them and you need to talk to them and figure out just how much value it really has.

[Croasdail]

And like Lindsey said, the only way to learn all this information is to sit down with these people and find out how much they plan on selling thier product for, and what contribution to that your image will be. It's not hard, just takes some time and some talking.

[Woolburr]

One of the biggest problems with tackling the pricing for this lies in the sales. The postcards were a perfect example...if you sell the rights to 1 million postcards, you know exactly how many are out there and how much each one is worth to you. I suspect that is is going to be rather hard to project sales of a wooden sign...Might sell one this summer...or they might sell 5,000.

Khristian is going to need to have a talk about specifics with the lady running the shop...and his parents are going to need to get involved as well...since in the US it is technically illegal for a 16 year old to enter into a legally binding contract without parental consent.

[Khristian Snyder]

Thank You everyone for the extremely helpfull comments. I did not know that I needed parental consent, so thank you for the heads up!

I have learned a lot over the past few days about copyrights and contracts. I think I understand enough to give her a price and terms.

Thanks again as this has helped me much more than I expected!

[eric5897]

you can upload and sell your photos on www.FainTo.com (http://www.FainTo.com) , a very good on-line photograph marketplace,

let them sell for you, you don't have to worry about anything.

[PhotosGuy]

They come on this site and others like it and ask the pros to tell them what they should charge. They ask the pros to tell them what equipment they need. They ask the pros to tell them how they should handle a specific shoot they have been hired for and never done before.

Its lazy and its insulting... While I usually agree with Jim, in this case the person is 16 & is just looking for advice? Khristian is going to need to have a talk about specifics with the lady running the shop...and his parents are going to need to get involved as well...since in the US it is technically illegal for a 16 year old to enter into a legally binding contract without parental consent. Another good point!

And Khristian, now would be a good time to to put all those images on a CD and © them all for $45?