Copyrights

[ShutteringFocus]

I was just curious...

I'm assuming a few of you have websites this day 'n age :roll:

I am working on one of my own. What I want to know is what do you do to keep people from stealing your photos. Do you just keep them really small? But even then, a 75dpi 4x5 can be resized to be a 300dpi 2x3 cant it...which is not too small for some adds and things...

How do you provide nice looking shots for people to view, without getting ripped off?

Can you Photoshop a little "Copyright 2004 all rights reserved" into the corner and call it good? Or is that illegal if you don't actually register the photos?

Also, in my research I have head of fascinating, complicated algorithms commonly referred to as software that track your photos. If your shots show up at another URL you know about it. Anyone know anything about this? Probably not worth it for my little snapshots...but I am curious to know more about it.

[Digital Prophet]

Check this link (http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex9/noright3.htm) out. But since I don't use this script I do not know if it will stop the saveas icon that appears when you hover or an image in IE 6+. But I'm sure a quick google on the matter will tell ya.

- Digital Prophet -

[cecilc]

The bottom line is:

If it's on your website and you expect to have ANY visitors, then who ever visits your website has access to whatever is displayed there. All images, photos, etc. are downloaded into your machine whenever you visit a website, although most people wouldn't know where to look to find them. That's how browsers work.

And forget the "no right click" script - it DOES disable the right click, but it won't stop someone from taking a photo off your site. As I said, by the time someone SEES it on their machine, it's already on their hard drive. And you can easily get around that script, anyway. Don't bother with it ..... it IS a waste of time. And a major irritant to visitors .....

Now, having said all that, here's something you might try.

Embed a watermark on the image with your name or company name or something on it. People may still take it, but your watermark will be on it. And it would probably not be a good time investment for them to work on the image to try to remove it.

There is NO real, guaranteed way to prevent images and photos being taken - that's just the nature of how the web works. And if it didn't work that way, we wouldn't be able to see images and photos on the web.

I know - that doesn't really help much. But it's the truth .....

[JoeTampa]

I post my pictures as 800x600 with a watermark running through them, like this:

http://www.notablephoto.com/gallery/Model/Swimsuit/4.jpg


Rationale: Even if you can't right-click, you can simply either grab the photo from the cache, a web downloader, what have you. Can't prevent someone from getting the image, but you can make the image relatively worthless to anyone.

[robertwgross]

I simply never put any high-res images on my web site. The typical images there are only 50KB to 100KB, and only a few are larger. I tell the viewer that they are highly compressed images and that the real ones are of a certain size for high-res printing.

I've had commercial web site managers ask me for permission to use my images, but then I tell them my terms. Cheap, but I want some money.

On the other hand, when somebody asks me for permission to use my images for educational purposes, and I validate that, then I give them something.

---Bob Gross---

[Longwatcher]

How do you provide nice looking shots for people to view, without getting ripped off?

Can you Photoshop a little "Copyright 2004 all rights reserved" into the corner and call it good? Or is that illegal if you don't actually register the photos?


You can put © 2004 on your images even if they are not registered, because they are copyrighted when you take them. However, if you don't register them then it makes it much harder to actually enforce your copyright on the images. So register any images that you post to the web if you don't want someone looting the picture. It also helps to keep the pictures at a small bad print size like 640x480 or 800x600 at 72 DPI. They can still be used for web stuff, but printing becomes at least difficult.

[daaaveman]

How do you register you pics?

[ShutteringFocus]

^ that's my next question. :wink:

[robertwgross]

It depends on where you are. In the U.S., there is a federal Copyright office.

It costs some bucks, so this is not likely to be something that you do for ordinary works.

---Bob Gross---

[mjordan]

I don't worry about what people can get off my web site. If you want to display your work, you have to live with the fact that some people will take it. That doesn't mean you should make it easy for them, but it doesn't do any good losing sleep over it.

I do have all my images registered with the copyright office though. While this won't do you anygood against the grandmothers and casual image collector that grabs images because they look neat and they want to use it for a Windows background or e-mail it to a friend... it will help you against the people that take the image and use it in a commercial way. Of course you have to catch them at it.

The way I register my images it to put all of the ones I have to be registered onto a CD, fill out the VA form (downloadable from the Copyright Web Site (http://www.copyright.gov/). The biggest advantage of having the images registered (even though you are protected by copyright even if you don't have them registered) is that if you sue and win, not only can you get a judgement against the infringers but they get to pay all court costs and lawyer fees... for both of you. That is a big incentive right there since it can cost up to $50k or more to go the distance in a Federal Court.

You can register as many jpegs as you can put on a CD with one form and $30 (as long as they are all within the same catagory as outlined on the web site). It takes how ever long it takes to burn the CD and 15 minutes to fill out the form and put it into an envelope to register.

Mike

[mjordan]

Robert, I don't consider $30 for a CD of images to be that much... and certainly worth the benifits you get from being registered. And I register even the every day snap shots along with my paying images. If the images are seen by anyone else, get it registered.

Mike

[robertwgross]

I didn't claim that the cost was expensive.

How much, in dollars, have you benefitted from registration?

---Bob Gross---

[mjordan]

Had I had them registered before I had one of my images used in a commercial ad on a year contract by a woman that was worth millions, I would have benifited termendously. But because I wasn't registering my images at the time and because she had lawyers on retainer (she owns a art gallery in Virginia) and was willing to run up the court fee on me, I didn't benifit at all... although I consider it a wake up call (just like losing a cheap piece of your camera equipment and realizing you need insurance) and the $90 I've spent to register thousands of images over the last year and half very cheap insurance. I may never be so lucky as to have a multi-millionaire still one of my images in such a clear cut situation, but you never know. It will probably pay off more than my playing the lottery has. :lol:

Mike

[arumdevil]

One thing you can do on your website to make the photos harder to download is to have them as a background image of a table cell. that way the image shows up but you can't actually drag it off or right-click it.

It won't stop people from getting it if they really want to, but it will baffle your average joe.

[khenn]

mjordan,

You say that you've spent $90 to register thousands of images. Apparently from that statement, you don't have to send the copyright office the original size images because there is no way you could get thousands of high res images onto 3 CDs. So, do you just put "reresentative" images on there downsampled to 640 x 480 and 72dpi or something similar?

Kris

[Mr.B]

One thing you can do on your website to make the photos harder to download is to have them as a background image of a table cell. that way the image shows up but you can't actually drag it off or right-click it.

It won't stop people from getting it if they really want to, but it will baffle your average joe.

That's a great idea! That and a watermark and your golden.

Another alternative to stump the average joe would be to display your gallery from an .swf file. Flash is a photographers freind.

[leony]

Resize images to be of 500 x 500 pixels max. Save as JPEG with compression of "5". That's it. Even if someone gets the image, there's too many artifacts if you enlarge it to be used anywhere.

Copyright: US copyright office only needs the images so they can see what they are - they don't care if you send 300Mb file from a drum scanner or a 100K JPEGs. Burn a CD of web-sized images and you're OK.

[mjordan]

Kris, right, all I did was put a thumbnail image on the first CD, which I created by running the images through my web gallery creater. On the 2nd 2 I had some from my D30, which I ran through the gallery creater and others from my 10D, which I just extracted the jpegs (I shoot in raw) and used those.

I think I had 1500 images on the first CD, more on the 2nd and something in between on the 3rd CD. The file sizes ran from about 26K to about 70K depending on the image. That leaves lots of room to put images on the CD. I'm going to be sending my 4th CD off here shortly and then probably another one in June (I'm doing a lot of shooting in June) and another one in August (another busy shooting month).

The way I set up my CDs is I put them in folders named for the month they were taken in. Sometimes if it was one event, I'll put them in a folder with the event name. I'll burn these to CD, making one or two copies for the Copyright Office (they need one CD for unpublished images and 2 CDs for published images) and one copy for my files with a copy of the form I filled out. This way I have the exact CD that I send in to the Copyright Office. Should I need to verify an image, I'll know exactly where on the CD it is before I put in a request (or the court puts in a request, I'm not sure how that part works) to the Copyright Office.

I'll bundle up the CD, form, and check for $30 and mail it to the Copyright Office with delivery conformation. Your registration starts the day they receive it, so I check the tracking number against the US Post Office web site and when I see it's been delivered, I print that screen and add it to the file for that CD. It takes about 6 months to get your certificate of registration, but if anything comes up before you get that, they will push it through if requested for legal reasons.

Sometime after you get your certificate of registration, your record will be added to the online database and you can actually view the record online.

On the publised/unpublised requirement. I found that just because people have viewed or you have had images on a web site, that does not make them published. According to their criteria, they are considered published when they are sold, leased, rented, etc., or signed over to some one to do this. Once you have sold a print or had it published (as in sold it for publication in a magazine) you have 90 days to register it or you lose the special benifits of registration. Also, you have to have them registered before a copyright infringement occurs or you don't get the special benifits either. But if you register after that and someone else infringes, you are covered. Of course, as with US law, all of this is dependent on how a court decides should you ever have to go to court. :lol:

And for those in other countries, your laws are probably differen than ours in the US. I know Canada's is different in a number of areas.

Mike

[IndyJeff]

Robert, I don't consider $30 for a CD of images to be that much... and certainly worth the benifits you get from being registered. And I register even the every day snap shots along with my paying images. If the images are seen by anyone else, get it registered.

Mike

Mike your right, the $30 is not that much and considering if you don't register the image, basically you have no recourse if someone steals your shot. Try and get an attorney to take the sace if the shot isn't registered. They want a lot of money upfront. If it is registered you can also get attorney fees included in a judgement but, not if the image isn't registered.
The benefits of registering far outweight the benefits of not and at $30 a cd, well that is very low cost per image if you break it down.

[rick barclay]

You should really search Google if you want to know about copyright laws.
The take I get on it is that whatever you publish on your website is
automatically covered under U.S. copyright laws, whether or not you
pay the registration fee.

Just one of the many links: http://www.benedict.com/info/info.aspx

[IndyJeff]

You should really search Google if you want to know about copyright laws.

No, if you really want to know about copyright laws, talk to an attorney who deals in copyright law on a daily basis. Check google for chicken soup or meatloaf receipes.


The take I get on it is that whatever you publish on your website is
automatically covered under U.S. copyright laws, whether or not you
pay the registration fee.

Ok so if I save one of your images from your website and add it to mine, I can claim I own the copyright as much as you do. Now you want to sue me for infringemnet but, I sent in a cd with the image included on it. Now who owns the copyright? I do because I have it registered and you don't. Pay me on your way out of the courtroom and while you have your checkbook out, write one for my attorney too. The judge said to do it.
Am I a thief? Sure but in the eyes of the law, I played the game and I now own it.


If you don't register the image, yes you can still enforce your owning of the copyright. Altho the burden of proof of ownership is on you to prove ownership and a very hard case to prove. In film days a negative was clear indication of proof of creativity. Digital has changed all of that. With digital the burden is even greater as there is no hard proof of date of creating.
There is no provision which allows you to collect attorney fees without registration. Typically a copyright infringement can run $50,000 to complete in attorney fees, and many times overrun judgement awards. If your image is registered there is a provision to collect your attorney fees along with infringement judgements.

Rick have you ever contacted an attorney about copyright violation? I have and I am speaking from experience here. I have an attorney and without the image being registered, she won't waste my money or her time. $30 bucks is cheap compared to her hourly rate, dirt cheap as a matter of fact.

The internet is a great place for getting information but, google is not what I want to base my case on. I want a real life attorney, with experience in these matters to advise and represent me.

[robertwgross]

... and after all of the legal shouting is over, it is a big cost for somebody.

That's why I never put any high-res photos on my web site. Let's just say I don't want to even give them any temptation.

---Bob Gross---

[mjordan]

... and after all of the legal shouting is over, it is a big cost for somebody.

That's why I never put any high-res photos on my web site. Let's just say I don't want to even give them any temptation.

---Bob Gross---

Bob, this not only adds some protection to the images that you put on a web site, but also for the 8x10 print you sold to a customer as a personal print and they turn into a big ad poster for their company that brought them in hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue that you never got a dime for. And had you known they were going to use it commercially, you would have charged different. It's not just about the internet, although the internet has made it easy to snag someone elses image to use as your own. And the images you sale could end up on someone elses web site and they could get taken from there and used by a 3rd party for profit and gain. First you have to find out about it, true, but if you do, having them registered gives you a lot more options than if you don't.



Rick, as soon as you take a picture, it is covered by copyright law (at least here in the US). You don't have to register and it doesn't matter if it never makes it out of the shoe box. It's copyrighted. What we are talking about here is the added benifit of actually registering your image with the Copyright Office (which is actually part of the Library of Congress). The two IP lawyers I talked to (and Jeff, you are so right that they don't even want to talk to you unless they are registered or put a lot of money up front) said in a lot of cases, once the other side finds out they are registered images, they don't even want to go near a Federal Court room. They want to try and settle before then because it will be cheaper.

Realisticly, this is something most people never have to worry about. It's not worth losing sleep over the people that grab an image here and there to use on their computer as a background or to add to a note they send to their friends and family. But for those that frequent web sites like this site then they are probably a little more serious about their pictures than the average snapshooter... and probably are producing a lot better images than the average snapshooter as well. These are the people that should be protecting their work to the full extent of the law. It's easy, quick and cheap. But just like me a couple of years ago, there are a lot of people that have a lot of misconceptions about copyright law, what is protected, how it is protected and what recourse you have should you be infringed on. I know I learned a lot after I was infringed on and though it still ticks me off, I consider it a good wake up call. And this is why I post so much on it every change I get and when ever the subject comes up on forums like this. There is a lot people don't know about it. And the best thing they can do is go read the copyright web site and get their images registered. Maybe it will turn out to be wasted time and money... and then again, you never know how it might work out to help pay for that 1D MK II down the road. :wink:

Mike

[rick barclay]

>Rick have you ever contacted an attorney about copyright violation? I have and I am speaking from experience here. I have an attorney and without the image being registered, she won't waste my money or her time. $30 bucks is cheap compared to her hourly rate, dirt cheap as a matter of fact. <

Of course not, but my website does have a copyright notice on it, so wouldn't
that protect me? However, I would agree that if I thought the material on
my website was worth going to court for, then I would gladly pay whatever
extra protection registering offers. We've discussed copyright laws on my forums in the past and have examined a dozen or so flavors of Googles'
chicken soup links. The majority lean toward the opinion that while
registering your material is a good thing to do, it isn't necessary to be
registered in order to prove your case in court.

I'm certainly not trying to act like an expert here but only repeating what
I read from researching the net. Your lawyer says one thing, but another
lawyer might tell you something else. But I do agree $30 is pocket change
for protecting your images and a sensible thing to do.

You do make a compelling argument for registering. Thanks for the free legal advice :) . People like me who do not make our living through
publishing are pretty shy about contacting lawyers, since layers don't
talk to you for free. Thus, we're relegated to asking others and searching the Internet for opinions about our legal rights. And THAT certainly is a chicken soup way of protecting oneself. Yes.

[mjordan]

Hey Jeff, I was thinking about what you said concerning trying to prove if a digital image was mine or not because we don't have a negative. Well, in a way we do have a negative. We have the original image that came out of the camera. And since I shoot almost 99% in raw, I also have the un-converted image that came out of the camera. If someone was to take one of my images from my web site or scan in the print and then send it in to register, all they are going to have is that image. It shouldn't take much to show that the image really is mine based on having the original raw or un-modified jpeg image. Not to mention that it would probably be one image out of hundreds in the same group and I could show all the others that looked almost identical. :lol:

Rick, I had the copyright notice all over my web site and the person that took the image had to go past at least 3 screens that said the images were copyrighted and not to be used or copied without permission. They still took the image and created a commercial ad out of it. Actually, their graphics person did a pretty good job making one of my lighting tests look pretty good. So no, just having a copyright notice up is not going to protect you. Just like people ignore stop signs, they ignore the copyright sign as well.

Mike

[robertwgross]

Bob, this not only adds some protection to the images that you put on a web site, but also for the 8x10 print you sold to a customer as a personal print and they turn into a big ad poster for their company that brought them in hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue that you never got a dime for.

No such print exists, so you are dreaming.

---Bob Gross---

[IndyJeff]

Of course not, but my website does have a copyright notice on it, so wouldn't
that protect me?
No. Not at all. You can write anything you want about using the images but the only people you will scare off are the honest ones. Those that are most likely to steal your stuff are the same ones who sneak into and fish private ponds.


However, I would agree that if I thought the material on
my website was worth going to court for, then I would gladly pay whatever
extra protection registering offers. We've discussed copyright laws on my forums in the past and have examined a dozen or so flavors of Googles'
chicken soup links. The majority lean toward the opinion that while
registering your material is a good thing to do, it isn't necessary to be
registered in order to prove your case in court.

Well Rick if you don't think anything of yours is worth copyrighting then I wouldn't worry about it. You never know when you snap off a frame, it may be very useful to someone else. Don't sell yourself short.
Your correct that it is not 100% neccessary to have the image registered to take someone to court but, it is unlikely you could even get as far as the court house door.

I'm certainly not trying to act like an expert here but only repeating what
I read from researching the net. Your lawyer says one thing, but another
lawyer might tell you something else. But I do agree $30 is pocket change
for protecting your images and a sensible thing to do.

This lawyer I have now is not the first and only lawyer I have talked with. However she was the best of the ones I spoke with, which was 4. She was the second one I spoke to. Any lawyer who says not to worry about the image not being registered ask him one question. Would he take the case and sue for his legal fees? I am willing to bet you a Krispy Kreme of your choice that he will want money up front and not guarentee recouping your legal fees in a judgement. Stay away from this kind of guy. He knows someone will win, he will. Win or lose the case, you will get a bill from him.
I know your not an expert, neither am I. That is why I contacted a lawyer. I worked for ASCAP as a field agent for a year, so I understand a little more about copyright law than the average guy walking around.
Let me ask you a question here, is it legal to have a big screen TV in your bar and have the volume turned up so people can hear the TV? If not then why, if it is okay explain why.


Of the research on the net, how many were written by actual IP lawyers? I have found a bunch from photographers and people in the business, but none from lawyers who practice in that particular field, that I remember.

You do make a compelling argument for registering. Thanks for the free legal advice :) . People like me who do not make our living through
publishing are pretty shy about contacting lawyers, since layers don't
talk to you for free. Thus, we're relegated to asking others and searching the Internet for opinions about our legal rights. And THAT certainly is a chicken soup way of protecting oneself. Yes.

And what a good chicken soup it is!! It gets you ready for the main course. Really, it doesn't matter whether you make a living at it or not. It is about protecting your work, your rights and being fairly compensated for the use of it.
If someone steals and uses an image of yours from your website about faces and things from the county fair, and it is used in a non-editorial use (say in a national ad campaign) and it goes to litigation because the overweight lady eating the footlong hot dog didn't like the caption "When enough is enough, lose weight and become respectable with Dr. Slims diet pills." Guess who may be named in the lawsuit? Yep, you too along with the ad agency, and the company that paid for the ad. Now you could file a counter suit but, you would have to prove you didn't allow that image to be used. If the image was copyrighted then you settle with the lady, and sue the ad agency and Dr. Slims for copyright infringemnt, regaining your settlement with the lady and the legal fees incurred in the second case plus damages for an infringment use of the image.

[IndyJeff]

Ok so you don't want to register your images for copyright.....

copyright FAQ (http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html)

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”


Lots of reasoning for registering on that site.

mjordan,

Good point about RAW. I guess it might kind of difficult to steal a jpeg and then convert it to RAW and make it as good as the original file.

[ShutteringFocus]

Wouldnt a canon RAW file be enoug proof? If you post the photo as .JPEG and someone steals it...would the .CRW file be enough proof? There is no way to convert BACK into RAW once its been converted is there? (At least not canon .CRW raw right?)