Motorsports, prints, price and rights - tips for selling too

[vvizard]

For the first time ever I felt I got pictures worth printing. So I tried out my fathers Canon S750 with some "HP invent" thick glossy paper.. WOW! :D This was nice! I printed crops of the original RAW-files at A4-size very good. And indeed, this printer is probably not nearly as good as the new photo-printers, or those you get if you go to the local photographer and let him do the print.

Anyway, now I'm curious. Lot of the shots (dragracing) I took this weekend turned out nice, and looks very good at A4-print size. Many of the cars/bikes have internet-addresses printed on the body-work, so there should be no hassle contacting the drivers, and try to sell some of them. How much should I ask for A4-prints on glossy paper printed on the S750? The quality sure is quite good I think. And to those familiar with printers, can I expect to get much better quality on a high-end printer? And if so, how much extra should I charge for prints from those? Just the difference in cost of printing?

Theese are the one I tried printing so far with good results:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32047
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31938

And I got lots more of pictures which may not be as spectacular, because the cars weren't so nice, but indeed, they may still be worth the memory for the drivers. Specially from the junior-classes where drivers are down to 10 years old. Parents will maybe like a "memory-print".

So, if I get any of the drivers interested, what do you think is a reasonable price for the above mentioned pictures in A4-format?

[vvizard]

Oh yeah, just to shoot in.. This is Norway, so dragracing ain't _THIIIIIIIIIIS_ big, and seriously, on the two drags I've been to, I haven't seen any "serious" photographers except myself around to shoot (no, I'm not counting the people with compact-cameras, and cell-phone cameras ;)). There have usually been 2-3 other SLR's around, but those have been "at" the track carried by press-people, for tv-stations and newspapers, and without knowing enough to guarantee this, I don't see it likely for those guys to even bother tracking down the drivers to sell prints, as they anyway get paid by their newspaper for shooting them, and from what I know, maybe they don't even have permission to sell the shots they take "at work".

[Cadwell]

Do you have the rights to sell the pictures? I don't know what the situation is in Norway but in the UK it is a condition of entry to nearly every race circuit that photography is permitted for private viewing purposes only. All commercial rights rest with the circuit unless by prior arrangement.

[vvizard]

Do you have the rights to sell the pictures? I don't know what the situation is in Norway but in the UK it is a condition of entry to nearly every race circuit that photography is permitted for private viewing purposes only. All commercial rights rest with the circuit unless by prior arrangement.

They didn't make me sign anything to prevent me from selling photos, they didn't warn me either written or verbaly about it, and they even let me into the press-areas with my camera, although they knew I was a team-member, and not a photographer. And lastly, I don't think they care about it either.

[Cadwell]

They didn't make me sign anything to prevent me from selling photos, they didn't warn me either written or verbaly about it, and they even let me into the press-areas with my camera, although they knew I was a team-member, and not a photographer. And lastly, I don't think they care about it either.

Mmmm... well over here it tends to be in the small print on the entry ticket or in the event programme... Oh... and EVERYONE cares about money ;)

If they aren't making those conditions in Norway then that is great. The attitude circuits take here really annoys me.

[vvizard]

They didn't make me sign anything to prevent me from selling photos, they didn't warn me either written or verbaly about it, and they even let me into the press-areas with my camera, although they knew I was a team-member, and not a photographer. And lastly, I don't think they care about it either.

Mmmm... well over here it tends to be in the small print on the entry ticket or in the event programme... Oh... and EVERYONE cares about money ;)

If they aren't making those conditions in Norway then that is great. The attitude circuits take here really annoys me.

Well, I had a team-pass, and therefore didn't get such a ticket, so no one have warned me =D But again no, I don't think they mind. Specially not on the qualification-day which it was when I was there. I haven't heard anybody at theese events saying anything about selling prints from there.

[Motorsports Photo]

I've run into those same "messages" but the bottom line is they are typically unenforcable. If you want to get on the good side of the "strip" offer them images for their website. If they know you have an OK personality and your quality is good, you've made a friend and suddenly all the other crap just kind of goes away.

Of all the tracks I have been to, there was only one that said they had their own "official" photographer, and no-one else was allowed. The sad part is the people I talked to said they werent very good anyway. I knod of figured that since I was at the exciting corners, and there no other lenses showed up in the same place I was.

Chat with some other photogs who do sell at the races and see what they charge. Pick a similar price. Modify as needed. I had to raise mine since the price of gasoline has gone up astronomically lately, and 6-7 hours is a typical travel time to the farway tracks.

-Pete

[karusel]

vvizard, don't sell them inkjet prints! Since the printer isn't really new I will assume it does not have archival quality inks. Anyway, I think it is practically cheaper and overall a much better choice to have your photos 'printed' in a lab, especially if you intend to sell them.

[vvizard]

Ok, so enough of the rights and such. Let's just assume it's ok in this situation. Well there aren't any other guys shooting nothing but cellphone cameras around theese events anyway, so I will not follow the price they charge for their MMS-pictures ;)

So, what is reasonable to charge? Guess it all depends. Would be unfair to charge the same for a candid of a junior-driver as for a tack-sharp full-sponsored TopFuel dragster at 250mph.. But at least some ideas from those of you shooting motorsports and selling prints would be much appreciated. (given the prints are from a lab, and not my fathers Inkjet of course =D)

[KennyG]

Do you have the rights to sell the pictures? I don't know what the situation is in Norway but in the UK it is a condition of entry to nearly every race circuit that photography is permitted for private viewing purposes only. All commercial rights rest with the circuit unless by prior arrangement.

Two photogs were ejected at the event you were at over the weekend for selling photographs to the drivers/teams.

I would not jeapordize my credentials, that's for sure. I could lose my press accreditation and be blacklisted by my editors.

The safest thing to do is ask the circuit management. Start off right and keep within the rules. Don't just brush it aside as it may come back on you. As far as a charge is concerned - umounted print, 15 to 20 Euros.

[vvizard]

Do you have the rights to sell the pictures? I don't know what the situation is in Norway but in the UK it is a condition of entry to nearly every race circuit that photography is permitted for private viewing purposes only. All commercial rights rest with the circuit unless by prior arrangement.

Two photogs were ejected at the event you were at over the weekend for selling photographs to the drivers/teams.

I would not jeapordize my credentials, that's for sure. I could lose my press accreditation and be blacklisted by my editors.

The safest thing to do is ask the circuit management. Start off right and keep within the rules. Don't just brush it aside as it may come back on you. As far as a charge is concerned - umounted print, 15 to 20 Euros.

To ejected from the Event I was at? Wow, seriously? How do you know? No I wouldn't risk my credentials either, but in my case, I don't have credentials. I shoot from the stands as a regular attendant. Except I wasn't a regular attendant either, I was a team-member with a team-pass, but shot only from the regular stands where all people had access. So at least there's no credentials I could loose. But if it's so strict, maybe I shall contact the host of the event and ask for rules on what I can do with these shots.

[Cadwell]

I suspect Ken was refering to the event I was at ;)

[KennyG]

I suspect Ken was refering to the event I was at ;)

I was responding to your quote as you quite rightly pointed out, I thought that was obvious.

Hope you enjoyed the on-track mayhem. I hear AR got a 10 second penalty for being a naughty boy. He still won privateer (kept his £1,800 cheque) but lost his over-all position. Got all my inside info on the aftermath tonight, will tell you in a PM.

[GenEOS]

As a fan, they can have rules for photography. The chance of them coming down on you?.....slim.

Credentialed people are different. Even as a "team" credentialed person, you can jeoperdise the team, by acting isn a way they dissagree with.

If you go to the event, take a bunch of shots and then peddle them to each team at the event, you may be stepping on another photogs toes..They may have someone contracted to do just that. In this case what you are doing is vending your shots...and they are not making a cut for letting you have access...

As a "team" member, you generally have the right to take photos of your team. Many teams have their own photogs that just cover their runs. If a team chooses to have their own photogs there, that is their right. You can sell them as many as you wish..(unless the rules state otherwise.)

I have not found much of a market for these images other than editorial usage.

NHRA in America is very strict on access. Especially, photo access. Getting it is a pain, and they are well policed by the circuit regulars. It is a big safety issue also. There are a lot of rules, for your own safety, that are described when you pick up your credentials.

[Motorsports Photo]

As a fan, they can have rules for photography. The chance of them coming down on you?.....slim.

I'm sure you have been at a "stadium" event that had signs saying no photos allowed and seen all the flashes in the stands! :D

Credentialed people are different. Even as a "team" credentialed person, you can jeoperdise the team, by acting isn a way they dissagree with.

This is true, but I have only seen it enforced with regards to SAFETY.

I have not found much of a market for these images other than editorial usage.

Lets se you pay for an "L" lens on that money. :D


[/quote]NHRA in America is very strict on access. Especially, photo access. Getting it is a pain, and they are well policed by the circuit regulars. It is a big safety issue also. There are a lot of rules, for your own safety, that are described when you pick up your credentials.[/quote]

I might try doing some dragstrip stuff this summer. I talked to a gal from Norwalk Raceway and she was upbeat on having me come, but I havent worked it into my schedule yet. Safety is not a problem for me since I practically grew up at the races, and as far as I know I'm the only photographer who is safety trained for road courses. I've always thought it should be mandatory for photographers to attend the same training as the workers do so they are aware of protocol when they are near the track.

Anyway as I said before there has only been ONE track that said "profesional photographers" werent allowed to sell pics. I'd say about half the others were glad to have me come and extended a "come back any time" invitation. As always your experience may vary expecially on the other side of the pond where motor racing is MUCH more popular.

-Pete

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Hey Vizzard great photos.

Funny I always thought you were a guy but I noiced the name in the bottom corner of your photos, Helge. I've never meet a female interested in drag racing before, I can't get my wife to go even if I bribe her with gifts of flowers and chocolate.

You have some pretty good aeroplane shots and some of Tommy which are pretty good.

[vvizard]

LOL! Well, last time I checked, I _still_ was a guy :wink: "Helge" is a boy-name in Norway, while "Helga" (notice last char) is a girls-name here. I've met several Americans thinking Helge is a girls-name though. Is "Helge" a girls name over there?

So you haven't met a girl interested in dragracing? I certainly do :) I'm sponsoring a team with one. The driver is one of my best friends.. an 18 year old cute girl :) This girl won an event (bracketing-class though) just after getting her dragracing-license last season, and only three days after getting her normal drivers-license (which you don't get until 18 in Norway). I can imagine some embaressed boys running aginst her in that event =D Anyway, this year they got a new engine, and lots of sponsors. They got ambitions of finishing top-5 in the SuperStreet national cup this year (and yeah, that's in the class named "Bad Boys", and not a female cup ) Real nice to have a female friend you can talk horsepower with =D Not many of those :(

http://www.127001.org/div_pics/canon_forum/siw1.jpg
http://www.127001.org/div_pics/canon_forum/siw2.jpg
http://www.127001.org/div_pics/canon_forum/brokensomething.jpg

Mechanical problems (last picture) prevented her from finishing the first event of the season last weekend unfortunatly, but she'll be back with a new 650+bhp engine this weekend :shock: I'm looking forward to shooting it :lol:

[Mthorpe_Davies]

Woops I asked my wife but my Norwegian sucks so I guess she thought I said Helga not Helge, she's kicking my butt over my Norwegian and since we are moving to Norway next year I had better start practicing.

[vvizard]

Woops I asked my wife but my Norwegian sucks so I guess she thought I said Helga not Helge, she's kicking my butt over my Norwegian and since we are moving to Norway next year I had better start practicing.

To defend yourself against your wife, just slam this fact in the table next time she bitches about your Norwegian: In Norway you start English-education at the age of 8-9 or so, and you're thought it at school at _LEAST_ until you're 18, so you will have no problem speaking English to most people here. Your Norwegian will anyway get good quite fast after you've moved here. But yeah, for a job it will probably be quite nice if you speak it already when moving here.

[Mthorpe_Davies]

I'll just give her a hard time now whenever she say's english isn't my first language and uses it as an excuse. Women as sneaky like that give them and inch and they take the how mile (scandinavian mile that is).

[MarkH]

I've never meet a female interested in drag racing before

You should watch some NHRA on tele, I've seen many females racing at the top level. Angelle Savoir (sp?) is one of the top drag bike racers, multiple world champion in her class I think.

[PhotosGuy]

I printed crops of the original RAW-files at A4-size very good. And indeed, this printer is probably not nearly as good as the new photo-printers, or those you get if you go to the local photographer and let him do the print.

Printing, shipping, billing... :twisted: Personally, I'd rather be doing other things!
Have you seen the sites where you can post images & someone can review them & pick ones to print? You set the price, they take care of everything & you get paid! Even T-shirts, coffee cups, calendars, etc are options which will increase sales. That's for me! :wink: Maybe it's for you, too. Take a look at Mypics.com & Fotopic.net to see what I mean.
[some car pics: http://frank-cizek.fotopic.net/c154195.html ]

Only hitch I can see is that you're in Norway, so you might a vendor that's somewhat local to reduce shipping charges, but I'm sure that some exist.

Ritz camera has a 4X6 album for $3 that holds 26 pics & will fit in your pocket, & it's great for showing the type of pics you take & generating interest in visiting the site. Also, they have a great deal in the Walgreen's drugstore here where you can get 50 4X6s for $10, so I made color business cards sized 2X4 & can get 150 cards for a price much under normal printing costs. An advantage is that the card can be changed whenever I want to show something different. Disadvantage is that you have to cut them out.

I'd post one here but Fotopic "upload" is down for maintainance. Let me know if you'd like to see one in a few days.

Good luck!

[BobbyC]

One of the most famous drag racers in history was a woman, Shirley Muldowney.

Angelle is a 3 time record setting bike champion. Karen Stoffer is another bike rider that is winning. There is at least 1 woman competing in the top fuel dragster class right now and many, more in the sportsman classes. John Force's daughter is doing real well in alcohol dragsters. I don't know about elsewhere, but women are a big part of drag racing in the US and I love it.

As for the photography, for your weekly local races, I don't expect you'd have much of a problem. For special meets put on by a promoter, I would get permission from them, they will usually want some pics in return.

I work for one promoted event now (6 races) and have had another photog that showed up, lied to get access to the starting line, then put pics up online, with the event name and everything as if he was "official". On top of that he totally copied the website of a fairly well known drag race photographer. The promoters were very upset and will not give him access again. I know I lost some sales after I put a lot of time and effort into my website and advertising. It's not much different than going to a wedding, taking pics, handing out cards then posting them for sale as if you were the official photog of the wedding. I only mention this because you should make sure you aren't stepping on toes at an event such as this. A small locally promoted drag racing event only has a certain amount of business to go around.

As you get to bigger events, you will find it much more difficult to get access. As Daniel said, NHRA events are the most strict of all of them.

BTW, I don't sell pics at the event, I looked into it but my events just aren't big enough for it, plus I'd rather concentrate on my photography and not worry about getting files uploaded and printed. I post them online on my site and use paypal for payments or they can mail me a check. Add enough shipping & handling to cover shipping, envelopes and labels and you're set. You can see it here: www.gulfimagesphoto.com/txshootout

For my cards, I just made a little collage in 4x6 and had a bunch printed at Walmart. They even made me a cheaper deal for buying a quantity. My wife goes through the pits and hands them out.

Cheers,
Bobby

[vvizard]

Thanks for all the input in this thread. It have been highly appreciated. I've tried to contact the people responsible for the event both by phone and email, but haven't succeeded in reaching them yet. Guess I'll just have to keep on :)

[Motorsports Photo]

I've tried to contact the people responsible for the event both by phone and email, but haven't succeeded in reaching them yet. Guess I'll just have to keep on :)

This is the hardest part! I'm not sure if they dont WANT to answer of the day-to-day operations make it really difficult. You may just end up showing up at an event just to talk to them.

-Pete

[BobbyC]

I've tried to contact the people responsible for the event both by phone and email, but haven't succeeded in reaching them yet. Guess I'll just have to keep on :)

Ask the racers you know to put in a word for you, it will help.